[I don't get this bit above, why does she have to marry another man in order to remarry her former husband again?
What if she or both want to get married again with her being on her own no man in sight since the divorce?

I would get it, if she was married to another man and had to wait till that divorce came about.]

It's interesting that this is completely opposite to OT law where they could remarry, I would think if they were divorced, but could not remarry if the other had married. Also Jesus tells us that this was written because of man's hard heart and that God does not support divorce for any reason other then adultery. Infact if they are divorced and remarry they commit adultery, thus substantiating the divorce in sin. Anyway the bottom line is reading the Islamic law with a biblical mindset you see how every law seems to bring about sin, at least it would if they were Hebrew.


I reread this and I found it confusing, let me give an example. First they divorce (sin in God's eyes) out of anger (sin) then they need to marry another (adultry - sin) before they can remarry (which is now sin). Sin. Sin. Sin. Sin. Sin. Not good.


Deut 24:1-4
1 If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house,
2 and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man,
3 and her second husband dislikes her and writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, or if he dies,
4 then her first husband, who divorced her, is not allowed to marry her again after she has been defiled. That would be detestable in the eyes of the LORD. Do not bring sin upon the land the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance.
(NIV)

Mark 10:5
5 "It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law," Jesus replied.
(NIV)

Mark 10:11-12
11 He answered, "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her.
12 And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery."
(NIV)

On 8/19/2002 8:57:00 PM, GlenG wrote:
>[I don't get this bit above,
>why does she have to marry
>another man in order to
>remarry her former husband
>again?
>What if she or both want to
>get married again with her
>being on her own no man in
>sight since the divorce?
>
>I would get it, if she was
>married to another man and had
>to wait till that divorce came
>about.]

O.k that bit is mine above ;-)and I would like an islamic explanation to please :-)

>It's interesting that this is
>completely opposite to OT law
>where they could remarry, I
>would think if they were
>divorced, but could not
>remarry if the other had
>married. Also Jesus tells us
>that this was written because
>of man's hard heart and that
>God does not support divorce
>for any reason other then
>adultery.

O.k got that bit it's below that I don't and it's on Christainity right?.

>Infact if they are
>divorced and remarry they
>commit adultery, thus
>substantiating the divorce in
>sin.

How ?? if they got divorced and then remarried or with different partners without committing adultery, how is that a sin?

>Anyway the bottom line is
>reading the Islamic law with a
>biblical mindset you see how
>every law seems to bring about
>sin, at least it would if they
>were Hebrew.
>
>
>I reread this and I found it
>confusing, let me give an
>example. First they divorce
>(sin in God's eyes) out of
>anger (sin)

And if not in anger?

>then they need to
>marry another (adultry - sin)

Why ? if they got a proper divorce and then married again with the same person or different person, how is it adultery, adultery is when someone has sex other than wife (or husband) during marriage, none of that has happened.

>before they can remarry (which
>is now sin). Sin. Sin. Sin.
>Sin. Sin. Not good.

Yes you did get me confused and still somewhat confused :-)let me dissected above;-)
>
>Deut 24:1-4
>1 If a man marries a woman who
>becomes displeasing to him
>because he finds something
>indecent about her, and he
>writes her a certificate of
>divorce, gives it to her and
>sends her from his house,
>2 and if after she leaves his
>house she becomes the wife of
>another man,
>3 and her second husband
>dislikes her and writes her a
>certificate of divorce, gives
>it to her and sends her from
>his house, or if he dies,
>4 then her first husband, who
>divorced her, is not allowed
>to marry her again after she
>has been defiled.

Man! that's a bit sad, so what becomes of the woman who would love to be back to her first husband if he's not remarried?
defiled seems somewhat unpleasent to describe.

>That would
>be detestable in the eyes of
>the LORD. Do not bring sin
>upon the land the LORD your
>God is giving you as an
>inheritance.
>(NIV)
>
>Mark 10:5
>5 "It was because your hearts
>were hard that Moses wrote you
>this law," Jesus replied.
>(NIV)
>
>Mark 10:11-12
>11 He answered, "Anyone who
>divorces his wife and marries
>another woman commits adultery
>against her.
>12 And if she divorces her
>husband and marries another
>man, she commits adultery."
>(NIV)

How is that adultery? adultery is when sex happens outside the marriage.

How is divorcing adultery?
Divorcing is only parting of two parties :-)


Angel.

On 8/20/2002 12:58:00 AM, Angel wrote:
>How ?? if they got divorced and then
>remarried or with different partners
>without committing adultery, how is that
>a sin?

First, keep in mind I was just trying to show the contrast between Islamic and Biblical teachings on divorce. The sin that the Hebrew, probably unknowingly, would commit is getting divorced. As Jesus said, what God has brought together, let no man seperate. You see after God has joined two together in marriage, then man dicides that they arn't married because one in anger said I divorce you three times. Did they get divorced in God's eyes? Did they undo what God has done in joining them together? God has no part in that divorce. So when they are remarried, in God's eyes, as I see it, they are commiting adultery which is then acceptable terms of divorce which consumates the divorce in sin, while they consumate a new marriage. Then they get divorced again, rinse and repeat, and this time marry the original spouce. According to the bible it would have been destestable for the hebrew to do this in God's eyes. Why? Because it defiles the land - it corrupts society. How? Aside from all the sin that's going on in God's eyes, one reason might be that it opens a loop hole to tempory marriages and people would take advantage. Ie it could encourage divorce with the though of, well I can always remarry later.

"Take away love and our earth is a tomb".

~Please dont frown! For you never know who may be falling in love with your smile!~
------------------------------------------------------------ -----------------------------

O.K, I think I got it now :-)

Thanks.
Angel.

On 8/21/2002 9:17:00 PM, NAUSHEEN wrote:
>Hello Glen and Angel,
>
>I must admit that I saw the
>resurrection when it took
>place, but could not come to
>comment on it sooner ;)

That's fine :-)

>Well, Angel, according to the
>law in islam, a woman is not
>SUPPOSED to get married to a
>man IN ORDDER TO GET DIVORCED
>and then reunite with her
>former husband.

Not exactly what I mean.
This is how I read it, a woman will purposely get married to a man and then divorce him to remarry him later, why do that?
What I mean is let me pose the question again, why does she have to marry another man in order to remarry her former husband again?
What if she or both want to get married again with her being on her own no man in sight since the divorce?

I mean after all that can be done to save the marriage and the divorce and after awhile realise that there is a way of solving differences and to give it another go at being married and decided to be together but couldn't coz she had to marry another man and wait till there was/if a divorce came about first to remarry her former/first husband after wanting to go back
Why can't she and former husband just get remarried without her going to another man?
I am not talking in the liberal sense where couples go in & out of marriages for the sake of it but in seriousness of it.

I am quering this because of one of the anon's pose it that in order to remarry after divorce, a woman has to marry another man before remarrying her former husband.
It's in the amina life's thread where I had asked about it post 5 of 5 unless he/she is wrong and the couple can have the choice to remarry after a divorce without going to another first, then remarry.

:-)

>If you look into this law from
>the spiritual point of you it
>says


>1. divorce (the first one) is
>something most disliked by
>allah. So in most
>circumstances, mankind shld
>try VERY hard to abstain from
>it.

I know and understand it.

>2. a woman who is divorced
>CANNOT be stopped from
>marrying another.

I know and understand.

>3. in case u want your
>divorced wife back, you cannot
>get her so easily. ie, you
>cannot make the practice of
>divorcing her and taking her
>back as many times and as
>often as you please. - if she
>weds another, then you lose
>her for EVER unless, she and
>her new husband agree on
>divorce. (which means it is
>quite likely that they happily
>ever after).

I know and understand.

>In the time when this law was
>prescribed to muslims, in
>arabia the status of women was
>very low. Men used to marry
>them for money and then leave
>them, or they used to live
>with them without marriage, or
>divorce them several times,
>and take them back again.
>
>To stop all these practices
>and to give a woman security
>in marriage, this law was
>brought in place.

I see and understand.

>Glen, it is true that divorce
>is a very bad thing, and one
>shld not go for it for petty
>reasons. however, allah has
>made this provision(which He
>says that is not something to
>be opted for in MOST
>circumstances), so that if and
>only if, it is difficult for
>two ppl to live together and
>the relationship has
>deteriorated beyond repair,
>they may have access to
>improve their condition.

I see and understand.

:-))


Angel.
p.s: if you can't answer maybe someone can, please.

Angel, hope you don't mind if I interject a bit on your post to Nausheen. :) Allah willing, I can help elaborate on her post.

On 8/22/2002 1:34:00 AM, Angel wrote:
>This is how I read it, a woman will purposely get married to a man and then divorce him to remarry him later, why do that? What I mean is let me pose the question again, why does she have to marry another man in order to remarry her former husband again? What if she or both want to get married again with her being on her own no man in sight since the divorce?<

A woman isn't to get divorced, marry someone else (under the pretense of getting a divorce from him) to remarry her former husband. She can only remarry her former husband if the new marriage doesn't work out AND she wishes to go back to her prior husband. One can't (religiously speaking) marry someone under a false pretense: no matter what it is... it's forbidden.

Marriage and divorce (in Islam) are serious issues. Although divorce is allowed, it's disliked and should be avoided. One should keep the family together if at all possible. That is also one of the reasons the talaq (divorce statement) has to be said on 3 separate occasions with a clear mind (not said out of anger or in the heat of the moment). There is also a 3 to 4 month waiting period before a divorce is finalized. If both parties wish to reconcile within that time period, it is better for them to do so.

>I mean after all that can be done to save the marriage and the divorce and after awhile realize that there is a way of solving differences...<

Again, that's one of the reasons for the waiting period (to see if the woman is pregnant is the other). If things can be worked out in that time frame, it's better for the couple. If they still feel (after the time passes) their differences are to great, then they are allowed to divorce if all the conditions are met under the sharia (Islamic law).

>Why can't she and former husband just get remarried without her going to another man?<

Because that's what Allah has decided for us. It may be to have one think seriously whether or not a divorce is really desired. (That's my interjection on the ruling.)

Example: if you are a guy and knew your wife can't come back to you whenever you wish after a divorce is finalized, wouldn't that make you think longer and harder at divorce in the first place? For most men, it's difficult to think of your wife with another man, legal or not. This "marriage to another man before she can come back to you" helps the thinking process a bit more.

It may seem difficult to understand from a non-Muslim perspective, but believe it or not, the rulings on divorce really help keep marriages together. Example: many couples I've known had problems (some couples have even separated for a time, all having gotten back together within the prescribed waiting period). They were able to work out their differences and are happy couples even until today (alhamdu-lillah).

Here is an hypothtical case. A man and woman are divorced, but just before the divorce is official they have intercorse. A week later, AFTER the divorce a baby is conceived. Now then there is a problem. Suppose the womans wants to remarry so that the father can be a father. What can they do but leave Islam.

We have a No Divorce rule in my family. But marital homicide is permitted: just kill me right away.

I think this might be a smart policy for other families to endorse. It improves civility. An over-aggressive husband will think twice before criticizing his wifes biscuits if she could pull out a .38 and plug him between the eyes. Just a modest proposal, that's all.

I think I'm devious enough to find a way to quote from the Bible, the Torah, the Quran, and even the Koran, to justify this policy.

F

On 8/22/2002 10:52:00 AM, peaceinislam wrote:
>Angel, hope you don't mind if
>I interject a bit on your post
>to Nausheen. :) Allah willing,
>I can help elaborate on her
>post.

No I don't mind :-)

>A woman isn't to get divorced, marry
>someone else (under the pretense of
>getting a divorce from him) to remarry
>her former husband. She can only remarry
>her former husband if the new marriage
>doesn't work out AND she wishes to go
>back to her prior husband. One can't
>(religiously speaking) marry someone
>under a false pretense: no matter what
>it is... it's forbidden.

It's not quite what I am getting at and not talking under false pretenses or not purposely.
Let me explain from my end the way a divorce is legal acted on and it realy doesn't have anything to do with the church, here in Australia when a couple decide to get a divorce coz they can't work out their difference even thru counselling, they have to wait a year/12 months from the time one of them had left the house and not living together, the amount of time allowed is because just incase they get back together and start living together which actually voids the 12 months BUT if they didn't get back together and the 12 months is up then they can apply for a divorce legally which just takes a fews days to a week to finalise. Now here is my bit, now that the divorce is in place and the ex couple go their separate ways and all and after while they happen to meet up and realise that they do want to be together in marriage, the woman doesn't have to go to another man to remarry her former husband, she can go straight back to him if she want to not having to go and be married to another man unless she did go and get married and divorced from him then she may go back. But I'm talking about her not seeing another man and later meet up with her former husband and realise they what marriage again hopefully for good then they get married,
If there is no love lost between the two and in no way that they will be together again well she can go and get married to someone else altogether.

Hope this helps in my explaining and in my query why a woman has to marry another to go back to her former husband, can't the two just remarry if they want to without all that obstacle.

>Marriage and divorce (in Islam) are
>serious issues. Although divorce is
>allowed, it's disliked and should be
>avoided. One should keep the family
>together if at all possible. That is
>also one of the reasons the talaq
>(divorce statement) has to be said on 3
>separate occasions with a clear mind
>(not said out of anger or in the heat of
>the moment). There is also a 3 to 4
>month waiting period before a divorce is
>finalized. If both parties wish to
>reconcile within that time period, it is
>better for them to do so.
>
>>I mean after all that can be done to save the marriage and the divorce and after awhile realize that there is a way of solving differences...<
>
>Again, that's one of the reasons for the
>waiting period (to see if the woman is
>pregnant is the other). If things can be
>worked out in that time frame, it's
>better for the couple. If they still
>feel (after the time passes) their
>differences are to great, then they are
>allowed to divorce if all the conditions
>are met under the sharia (Islamic law).

What about the time has passed??

>>Why can't she and former husband just get remarried without her going to another man?<
>
>Because that's what Allah has decided
>for us. It may be to have one think
>seriously whether or not a divorce is
>really desired. (That's my interjection
>on the ruling.)

Understand but that's after the divorce, the realisation and if she married another then what hopes are there for a union cause her second marriage is in place, the wait could be an awlfully longtime;-)
shouldn't have to unless she/he feel in love with the other, then they have to go their separate ways/move on. But that bit I'm not talking about. :-)

>Example: if you are a guy and knew your
>wife can't come back to you whenever you
>wish after a divorce is finalized,
>wouldn't that make you think longer and
>harder at divorce in the first place?

Of course.
But I'm not talking about that, I can have my wife back whenever I like/wish after a divorce. That and above example tells me that the man doesn't respect the woman or the relationship in the first place seriously or himself really.
May I ask where you get the above example from?

>For most men, it's difficult to think of
>your wife with another man, legal or
>not. This "marriage to another man
>before she can come back to you" helps
>the thinking process a bit more.

I know
But being with her in the first place should make him aware of that

>It may seem difficult to understand from
>a non-Muslim perspective, but believe it
>or not, the rulings on divorce really
>help keep marriages together. Example:
>many couples I've known had problems
>(some couples have even separated for a
>time, all having gotten back together
>within the prescribed waiting period).
>They were able to work out their
>differences and are happy couples even
>until today (alhamdu-lillah).

Nope not difficult just that bit I'm enquiring, I just don't see it being necessary to marry another man in order to remarry your first husband.

:-)


Angel.

On 8/23/2002 1:06:00 AM, Angel wrote:
>...here in Australia when a couple decide to get a divorce coz they can't work out their difference even thru counselling, they have to wait a year/12 months from the time one of them had left the house and not living together...<

If a Muslim couple resides in a non-Muslim country (no matter which one), they should observe religious as well as local laws. When the divorce would be finalized (if that was the final decision for both parties involved), then they'd have a legal divorce according to both religious and country laws and would therefore be permitted to remarry whom they wished (without problems in either regard).

>...the amount of time allowed is because just in case they get back together and start living together which actually voids the 12 months BUT if they didn't get back together and the 12 months is up then they can apply for a divorce legally which just takes a fews days to a week to finalise.<

As I'm sure you realize, that's one of the reasons we Muslims have the 3-4 month waiting period.

>Now here is my bit, now that the divorce is in place and the ex couple go their separate ways and all and after while they happen to meet up and realise that they do want to be together in marriage.<

You're looking at this from a Western point of view as opposed to looking at this Islamically. (If you can, just for a moment, step out of your shoes and envision yourself as a Muslim wanting to follow Islamic law.)

The reason why it's so hard to go back to your former wife (or husband) is to make the couple sure they actually WANT the divorce. Although divorce is allowed, it's disliked. Allah wants to keep the family together if at all possible. That's why the condition is placed there: to make people think two and three times before the divorce is finalized.

Again, think of this from a man's point of view: how would you feel if you're wife were with another man? It's hard on the ego. Most men (at least the ones I know) can't imagine that. Their wife is THEIR wife, not for anyone other than them.

Allah knows His creation. He knows if He puts this condition on divorcing someone, it'll make them think: "which is better: work things out with my spouse or to have someone else with them..." For many people, it's a no brainer: their answer is an outright NO!

>>If things can be worked out in that time frame, it's better for the couple. If they still feel (after the time passes) their differences are to great, then they are allowed to divorce if all the conditions are met under the sharia (Islamic law).<<
>What about the time has passed?<

Again, if the marriage can be worked out before the divorce is finalized, then it's better for the couple involved. If they insist on divorce, then it's the couple's choice.

>Understand but that's after the divorce, the realisation and if she married another then what hopes are there for a union cause her second marriage is in place, the wait could be an awlfully longtime ;-) <

Yep... that's the point: to make people think of this BEFORE they make such a serious decision.

>>Example: if you are a guy and knew your wife can't come back to you whenever you wish after a divorce is finalized, wouldn't that make you think longer and harder at divorce in the first place?<<
>Of course. But I'm not talking about that, I can have my wife back whenever I like/wish after a divorce. That and above example tells me that the man doesn't respect the woman or the relationship in the first place seriously or himself really. May I ask where you get the above example from?<

Angel, men are to absolutely respect women (and treat them kindly), not badly (Al-Qur'an). That's why such conditions are placed upon mankind as a whole. If you go to a Muslim country, and a man finds out his sister (or daughter) has been disrespected in any way by her husband, the husband knows her family will come after his butt for disrespecting her. It's the way one's raised.

As for the examples I give, I try my best to give ones from people I've known or met over the years. I also like to read up on the latest news (if I can find the time).

Example: divorce statistics for America alone have been on the rise for several years (if people get married at all). More and more women are having children out of wedlock (regardless of what their religion says). It isn't like years gone by when people followed their religions more closely. Pre-marital sex, living together, and gay life-styles are now considered the norm. Problems like these are spreading because of people don't adhere to their faith. One can only hope for the best, even if they expect the worst.

>Nope not difficult just that bit I'm enquiring, I just don't see it being necessary to marry another man in order to remarry your first husband.<

Since you aren't Muslim, it isn't necessary for you to follow the ruling. You are entitled to believe as you wish. However, since I'm Muslim, I know it, understand it, and intend to follow it (if ever necessary: but hopefully not!).