by using birth control are we playing allah? and who is in control, us or allah? what is it that we are controlling here?

does islam leave it to us individuals to choose whether to use birth control or not, or does Islam dictate to us when and how this should be used? are there conditions?

how does all this fit into takdeer, and everything being pre dertermined by allah? what about thsoe who miscarry? those who abort? is this all just co incidental ?

are we all here in this world cos our parents didnt use any birth control?

Israfil wrote: Rook, this is not to offend you by any way, shape or form but, how old are you? The reason I asked is because most teenagers that I know including my 17 Year-Old Nephew when typing spell the word "cos" for "cause" which I find the former the lazy way of spelling. I was curious.

I thought "cos" (which my end is spelt "coz"  ) was for "because" not "cause" which is for something else

hmmm..

I take it from your post that you don't believe in using birth control? Am I right sister?

I guess my feeling on that matter is that according to the Shafi'i school of thought it is considered offensive to use birth control but it isn't harram.

Reference "Reliance Of The Traveller." Sheik Nuh Ha Mim Keller.

I'd also like to say to that I believe each woman should make that choice for her self and I believe that when we have a one size fits all doctrine it can become cultish and dangerous. The Prophet sws { Reference Imam Bukhari) said " Differences are a mercy."

I believe that in today's world women are sick, and opressed by our own voilition. Man is really no longer responsible. I believe that three things keep us opressed. One: our own low self-esteem, low self-confidence, and lack of self awareness or education. Two: engaging in child bearing with out solid early childhood development education, solid support systems for labor and emotional assistance, and solid "planning for a family" information. Not be to confused with family planning commonly known as birth control. Our inability to plan for each child, and have a solid parenting plan harms our own survival because it comes back to bite us in the but, and the first manifestation of our errors is through our marriages or relationships with men. Three: Not having the skills and abilities to balance ourselves with out going to extremes and not holding the men in our lives accountable. In America I sincerely believe we are a people of extremes. We are often polarized and isolated within our own peer groups. I also believe that women overcompensate for their educational/economic achievments by settling for men and marriages they know aren't good for them.

So, I don't believe we are playing Allah, how could we ever? We are the creation, and Allah the creator? We are nothing, and Allah is the reality? We are slaves and only Allah has the the real ever lasting power.

My opinion only.

Miriam

UmmAminata wrote: My opinion only. Miriam

And a good one to.

israfil, did i at any point in time say that u had the right to refer to me as Rook. do u know what rook means. why would u choose to shorten my name this way.

and secondly, what does my age have to do with anything here.

why would i claim to be a mother of 4.

"cos" for your info is a short form of because and not cause

instead of commenting on the topic, u would rather choose to talk about me............n then u call me a teenage..whose acting juvenile now? 

Rookaiya my apologies for shortening your name....Although this is the internet and by that reason alone I don't have to do what you say, but because I don't want to disrespect you I'll spell it out. The reason I shortened it because I don't have time scrolling up every time I refer to you. I shortened it. Only you took offensive to that. Regardless what Rook means does not mean that I refer to you in that light....lighten up! Second I may have misread one of your post because I swear you mentioned that you have four kids. I may have scrolled in between your post and another's but I thought I read a post where you mentioned to have kids...my apologies if I'm wrong.

Third....Like me saying Rook "cos" is a lazy way of saying because. Also if you know the rules of grammar and slang cause can be interchangable with because as well. Anyway to comment on the topic I think women have the right to do what they want. Just because you (if you hold this position) believe that we shouldn't use contraceptives doesn't mean others shouldn't. Its a life choice made by individuals.

i do have 4 kids..i never said i didnt

secondly...please show me where i said that just becos i feel its wrong to use contraceptives,,,that others need to follow my opinion me in this

all i was doing was trying to get different points of view and trying to ascertain what informs the persons decision. also i wanted to know whats the islamic position regarding all this. as  muslims, our actions are governd by the Quran and Sunnah so we cant say we choose something, which is clearly frobidden in the Quran. im not saying that contraceptives are forbidden..cos i dont know if we have that freedom to choose...or whether this matter is regulated by the Quran and sunnah...hence the topic.

rookaiya wrote: secondly...please show me where i said that just becos i feel its wrong to use contraceptives,,,that others need to follow my opinion me in this

If you took note of what Israfil mentioned, you would have noted that he said "if you took the position" he didn't say that you actually did or say.

Contraceptives are a matter of the individual/s in my opinion. If you cannot take care of a baby/child and/or not ready to then you should perhaps use contraceptives, this is where i really disagree with religion/s, it should be allowed. Why should you abstain from making love for fear of having unwanted pregnancies??, humans are in a unique way as making love is not always pertain to populate the species even if our natural instincts at times are.  

If islam is like Catholicism then all forms other than natural method, is forbidded.

 Salaam O Alaikum Rookiyah

 If I offended you I apologize.  My comments were not targeted at you only trying to express my own person feelings, opinions, and beliefs. Hopefully this time I'll do a better job. I also wanted to point out one disadvantage of technology is that it eliminates a great degree of humanity associated with communication such as the ability to convery deep feelings, and it's very easy to misunderstand and offend each other. I myself have and still struggle with this issue regarding our cultures surrender to technology. And because we aren't in front of each other it's really easy to say things we know we wouldn't dare say in public out of value for our own personal dignity and respect. I tried to be as professional as possible.

Concerning the issue of birth control Islamically:

* It's always best to consult your local Imam or Shayak versus an online community.

m5.5 The husband is permitted to practice coitus interrupts in love making with his wife though it is better not to

page 526 Reliance Of The Traveller: A Classical Manual of Islamic Sacred Law by Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri and Nuh Ha Mim Keller.

Concerning the issue of birth control Islamically continued:

I am now sumarizing or paraphrasing please consult your local Imam to verify the accuracy or soundness for your own personal comfort and saftey.

The rights of a Muslim child:

1. The right to be concieved and born in wedlock.
2. The right to an honerable name.
3. The right to be Muslim meaning: the parents themselves must teach, and train the children to be Muslim knowing the five pillars of Islam, the six pillars of eman, the Qur'an, the Sunnah, and the sacred law as it applies to their individual situation.
4. The right to food, clothing, and shelter.
5. The right to know, and learn a trade before leaving home.
6. The right to marriage to an honerable Muslim or Muslima.
7. The right to compassionate, patience, and care.
8. The right to be breastfed by the mother or a wet nurse.
9. The right to two parents or access to the farther.
10. The right to maternal and paternal grandparents if they are living.

If you can provide this for each child than you should keep having children, but lets remember that:

• each parents psychological, emotional, and spiritual well being must be sufficent to do so.
• each parents intellectual and cognitive skills must be sufficent to do so.
• each parents relationship with Allah and degree of worship must be sufficent to do so.
• each parents knowledge of Islam must be sufficent to do so.
• each parents physical and mental well being must be sufficent to do so.
• one parent prefferably the farther must have the ability to financially support the Islamic, secular{trade} health, nutrition, clothing, and shelter needs of each child according to his means, according to socioeconomic level.

Not doing meeting these requirments intentionally is volating the rights of the child according to sheria law. Unlike most secular law, children's rights and responsibilities go above and beyond the three squares meals a day and a public education. No muslim child should be illiterate in their deen or secular education.

In cases of divorce or where the mother is single, these rights still apply the farther is bound to honor and implement the sacred law no matter how much he hates or dislikes his ex-wife, they still are his children.  Divorce is not an acceptable excuse to neglect the rights of a Muslim child ever.

continued..

Concerning the issue of birth control personally:

I do use birth control. I use the Minera IUD. It's a form of long term birth control.

I look at the issues from many different perspectives to include:

* I believe nothing, or no one earth has any real power, it's simply imagined. It's like a mirage, you walk near it, and than it disappears. In other words modern mans  belief in individuality is a delusion! La hawla wa la quata ila bilahi- " There is no power but Allah." Allah is Yal-Malik- Allah will always be King.

* Many women have and still do get pregnant off birth control just affirming that if Allah says "BE"... than it "It IS"..

* Hormonal birth control supplements have many adverse affects, barrier devices especially those implanted have dangerous and often fatal adverse affects.

* I don't believe in "birth control" - I think it's another illusion, but I do believe in child spacing. If some one doesn't want allot of children but doesn't want to use birth control, I believe that you should get married over the age of twenty seven to thirty when your egg production starts to decrease; I believe that you can space your children 3,4,5, years apart, if some one in there thirties does this there a good 70% chance they may only have no more than three children at the most.

* I also believe that if your marriage is on the brink of divorce, or was on the brink of divorce two years from the time you decide you want more that you should be patient and wait it out. Having children when you are living in a unhappy or unhealthy marriage is the worst thing you can do. Having more babies won't bond you closer to him, it will further drive him away. I believe the qaulity of your relationship, the degree of committment, trust, respect, and even sex, determine a great deal about engaging in further childbearing. I have no pitty for women who have allot of children knowing she is sick, the husband is sick, the marriage is sick, the best thing we can give our children other than the deen is a good marriage.

So these are my thoughts and feelings on it.

How do you feel Rookiyah? and others?

P.S.

Additional resources:

Ovulite - www.ovulite.com 800-923-9023

Ovusoft Fertility Software (757) 722-0991 www.ovusoft.com

DONA Internation: Doula's of North America 888-788-3662 www.dona.org

Assocation of Labor Assistants And Childbirth Educators 8888-2222-5223 www.alace.org

CIMS www. motherfriendly.org 888-282-2467

Post Partum Depression Support 800-944-PPD http://www.postpartum.net - www.postpartum.net

Mother Daughter Wisdom: Creating a Legacy of Physical and Emotional Health

Intutive Listening-How Intuition Talks Through Your Body

Igniting Intution: Unearthing Body Genuis

Igniting Intution

www.drnorthrup.com or Hay House 800-654-5126

American Holistic Medical Assocation www.holisticmedicine.org (505) 292-7788

National Center For Homeopthay wwww. homeopathic.org 877-6240613

International Academy Of Compounding Pharmacists www.iacprx.org 800-9274227

Peace & Blessings Angel

I'm so sorry, I didn't reply to you earlier, I just now noticed your post, and I just now realized I'm in the men's section!

lol

I'm a former Catholic myself, and I have seen some groups of Muslims and some Scholars who have very similar beliefs regarding birth control as the Catholic church. It was easy for me to spot being a former Catholic.

I hope my post helped educate you a little bit. The beauty about Islam in my opinion is that there are differences and there is a balance. I see my choice as a balance. There are some scholars who even say that if a woman can't get pregnant for medical reasons every year or is insane that birth control should be used while at the other end of the specturm there are those who say the more the better!

I find that the scholars who are also secularly educated such as those who are medical doctors, and scientists realize that having a woman pregnant next year is very dangerous to her own physical and mental health. In a modern society having large family is harder aside from finances the extended family system doesnt exist anymore. I mean look at what happened to Andrea Yates! I wonder how many of her exist in Islamic socities or so called Muslim populated countries. Money is really your smallest money by a long shot, forget about affording children financially can you afford them psychologically, can your marriage afford them?

And lets remeber some one do like being pregnant and never get over their baby lust. I'm one of them which is why I have an IUD in place. I'd have ten children already, but I know my self very well, and I know I couldn't handle that many children even with a six figure income, and a nanny. I'd go totally crazy.

I think every issue regarding Islam is an emotional issue for many of us for very deep seated reasons.  When I post or speak or what ever, I try hard to not advise or even propogate based off my personal preferences. I try to advise based off a general standard because I know that a one size fits all solution is a fairy tale gone way bad for many women.

Peace and blessings

***17.  Materials that are explicit in nature or pertaining to sexuality will not be tolerated - even when the purpose is genuine. ***

Bismillah..

Assalaamualaikum,

Brother Israfil, it is better if you go and ask a shaikh yourself. Such explicit discussions are unappropriate on this forum where very young minds may browse.

Sister umm Aminata, remember, modesty is a branch of faith.

Wassalaam.

angel

as Muslims we submit to the will of Allah. we cant choose which commands we obey and which commands we disregard.

where the Quran or sunnah is explicit on a matter..theres no room for our own personal preferences. we have to act in accordance with the quran and sunnah.

it is precisely for this reason that Allah SWT has laid down laws to guide mankind. as u can see, some are in favour of birth control and some are against. but ulitmately, the decision has already been made by our creator.

Salaam Alaikum Moderator Amah

I so apologize!  Astafurllah I wasn't even thinking!  I was so focused on quoting sources that it didn't even occur to me!

It's not Brother Israfil's issue, it's mine. I totally was not thinking... my intention wasn't to be sexually explicit, and I do not believe that discussing sex is immodest, as there is no daleel for this Islamically, according to your rules yes, Islam no.

Brothr Israfil- ask a sheik who is a both a medical doctor and a scholar. Or ask a medical doctor who is a devout Muslim.

Go to some one who is totally educated.

My opinion only~