Am just watching a news report about the state of women in various Asian countries...including a poor girl from Bangladesh (?) who was kidnapped and gang raped for 37 days, then was raped again by the police when she was "rescued".

My question is: how does a woman who is raped, for example, go to authorities to report the crime if she doesn't have (or can't get) 4 witnesses to confirm the crime? Apparently, women who manage to be strong enough to try to report rapes often get thrown in jail for adultery because she can't produce 4 witnesses to confirm her story.

Kim...

No answers yet? I must say I'm a little surprised. Surely _someone_ must know...? Or care.

Kim...

Dear Kim,

I think the forum members a little bit uncomfortable to talk about shariah (islamic law), people/other member may said that "John Doe doesn't have enough knowledge about QURAN AND HADITH (prophet's tradition) but challenging the shariah".

Just my humble opinion (note: I am not good in quran & hadith too), because adultery is very serious 'crime' in islam, so it requires very strong evidence to judge it. 4 witnesses and conviction were the only acceptable evidences on that time.

Rape it is very difficult case to proof it, even in 'modern' law. However in the quran there is an 'example' regarding rape. In surah yusuf/Joseph (chapter 12):

===
12:22 When Joseph attained His full manhood, We gave him power and knowledge: thus do We reward those who do right.

12:23 But she in whose house he was, sought to seduce him from his (true) self: she fastened the doors, and said: "Now come, thou (dear one)!" He said: "(Allah) forbid! truly (thy husband) is my lord! he made my sojourn agreeable! truly to no good come those who do wrong!"

12:24 And (with passion) did she desire him, and he would have desired her, but that he saw the evidence of his Lord: thus (did We order) that We might turn away from him (all) evil and shameful deeds: for he was one of Our servants, sincere and purified.

12:25 So they both raced each other to the door, and she tore his shirt from the back: they both found her lord near the door. She said: "What is the (fitting) punishment for one who formed an evil design against thy wife, but prison or a grievous chastisement?"

12:26 He said: "It was she that sought to seduce me - from my (true) self." And one of her household saw (this) and bore witness, (thus):- "If it be that his shirt is rent from the front, then is her tale true, and he is a liar!

12:27 "But if it be that his shirt is torn from the back, then is she the liar, and he is telling the truth!"

12:28 So when he saw his shirt,- that it was torn at the back,- (her husband) said: "Behold! It is a snare of you women! truly, mighty is your snare!

12:29 "O Joseph, pass this over! (O wife), ask forgiveness for thy sin, for truly thou hast been at fault!"
===

So in this modern day I think 4 witnesses is not the only tool that can be used to proof adultery, dna test and any other modern technology also can be used.

However, again rape is the most difficult case, because there is no scientific tools (at least that I know of) to differentiate between 'making love' by force or not. You can see Tyson's case, Cobe Bryan's case, etc took forever to finalize it.

DNA test? All that proves is who did it - it does NOT prove she was forced.

And I'm sorry if you meant well, but your story just says that women are guilty and that men are their poor, defenceless little victims.

I ask again - HOW can a woman be treated properly by the law/men/society if she does NOT have 4 witnessess who will testify that she was raped?

Perhaps this is why hell is full of women - because a LOT of them sure as hell have no reason to speak well of their society, their men and of life in this world.

Kim...

Kim,

I am not a qualified to provide you with scholastic answer to your question, but in my opnion i would try not to confuse rape and adultery. The latter can take place without force and on mutual agreement, whereas rape is not without force and therefore, more often, should present itself with some evidence. Brother Semar has given some indications from the example of Yusuf (May Allaah be pleased with him).

Hence, in case of rape, the ruling might vary from adultery, as to necessity of sourcing out 4 witnesses. It could be classified as offense equal to torture, humiliation, violation of one's dignity, severe physical abuse or even, and most likely, murder.

From the example that you have pointed it should be clear that it is not Shariah that is at fault or flaw it is people and their ignorance in following it rightly... It is convenience, liberalism and distorted meaning of 'progress' that they try to implement.

What happens in  countries that are known as Muslim is not always reflection of Islaamic teachings. There is no ground whatsoever for the King of Saudi Arabia to remain in his position as the leader of the country if we were to look at Shariah. The leader who can barely take care of himself, and help himslef in his personal daily needs without assistance can't be the ruler, can he.

If Shariah is not practiced at a fundumental level in the country that is known to be 'hardcore' Islamic country how can you expect it to be implemented properly in countries with strong cultural and at times un-Islaamic influences.

It is not the Shariah that should be questioned but whether it is implemented without being intentionally concealed or twisted.

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,

Hello Kim,

Are u presuming that the state of a woman who is raped does not speak of the crime commited on her? How could it be that there are no signs of force on her poor physical self if she has been abused. If she takes her complains to the authorities, she should first be given a medical exam. her relationship with the offender needs to be established, and the signs of abuse shld be ruled out is a case of adultry is to be proven on her .... it can happen, am not denying the posibility. Authorities are fake, and their methods are also fake in several cases, but that does not point a finger at the islamic sharia.

There need to be four witnesses to present a case of adultry, but I don't think the same rule is applicabe in case of a crime like rape.

There is wisdome in having four witnesses, so that people are not  able acuse and have anyone punished on baseless charges. The people who are witnesses, their integrity is also to be taken into consideration for their testimony to apply ... not just anybody can be a witness. If this accusation is between spouses, no four witnesses are required, but they need to swear an oath of being truthful, and swear to have allah's wrath upon them if they are lying ... it is not a light matter, as you may have conceived.

Your mention of the hadith about women in hell at this juncture is not a very intelligent argument, please do not mind. You are interpreting a hadith thru your own conjuncture, and this is not the method of understanding prophetic traditions in islam.

Peace,

Nausheen

Yes, but if a woman first goes to the police, instead of hospital, they might throw her in jail for adultery because they don't care about her or care to take her seriously or care to go looking for the men who did it.

This happens!

http://news.webindia123.com/news/showdetails.asp?id=80352&cat=Asia - http://news.webindia123.com/news/showdetails.asp?id=80352&am p;cat=Asia

And I am not confusing rape and adultery - but apparently many people do! 

Kim...

kim! wrote: Yes, but if a woman first goes to the police, instead of hospital, they might throw her in jail for adultery because they don't care about her or care to take her seriously or care to go looking for the men who did it. This happens! http://news.webindia123.com/news/showdetails.asp?id=80352&cat=Asia - http://news.webindia123.com/news/showdetails.asp?id=80352&am p;am p;cat=Asia And I am not confusing rape and adultery - but apparently many people do!  Kim...

then we are shifting from the 'rape' subject to responsibilities and moral upbringing of the police...

Yes, but what happens if a woman or a child doesn't really fight back? What if they are so petrified that they don't fight back, and therefore, don't have bruises and marks and whatever?

In a society where, say, girls can be married at age 9, and therefore, deemed to have the ability to tempt men, how does a terrified, unmarked 9 CHILD prive she was raped, and not guilty of adultery?

Kim...

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,

KIM wrote: Yes, but if a woman first goes to the police, instead of hospital, they might throw her in jail for adultery because they don't care about her or care to take her seriously or care to go looking for the men who did it. This happens! http://news.webindia123.com/news/showdetails.asp?id=80352&cat=Asia - http://news.webindia123.com/news/showdetails.asp?id=80352&am p;am p;cat=Asia

Kim, you are not really focuse on your question.

Above you say if the girl goes to the police first .... and then you quote a link which says:

Nazish, a student of the Government Allama Iqbal Girl College, Sialkot, was kidnapped on January 3 by some car-riders while going to her college. She was kept at an undisclosed place for 37 days before the police recovered her. Quoting sources, The News today reported that Musharraf has ordered an immediate probe into the gang-rape case that hit headlines worldwide. The President reportedly asked the authorities to leave no stone unturned to reach the truth and unmask the culprits involved in the heinous crime.

Your quote does not match well with your concerns.

Then you say:

Yes, but what happens if a woman or a child doesn't really fight back? What if they are so petrified that they don't fight back, and therefore, don't have bruises and marks and whatever?

A society where girls are married at the age of 9 is likely to be a very closed society. Women are available to men since the age of 9. They keep their women behind painted windows, and they practice honor killings as well. The picture you are trying to paint does not sum up very well ... tho I understand your concerns.

Peace,

Nausheen

It matches perfectly well, I think - she was raped and THEN saw the police _before_ she could get to a hospital. Now, maybe she didn't actively _go_ to the police, they found her instead, but what's the difference?

Assuming these police are as ignorant and as repulsive as they appear to be, what would they have done if she had been raped and then walked herself into the police station for protection and to report the crime? Sounds like they still would have raped her and thrown her in jail for adultery, don't you think?

Kim...

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,

Hello Kim,

What I read from the article, She was kept at an undisclosed place for 37 days before the police recovered her.

So, basically, the police did not throw her in jail for the crime being commited on her. - In other words, the report does not seem to say, she was accused of adultry and then put into jail, as you have implied in your former responses, or is there anything I am missing?

Peace,

Nausheen

No, she was kidnapped for 37 days, raped during this time by her captors, and then the police found her, took her back to the station and raped her again.

I will try to find other examples of my point, if you wish.

Kim...

let me repeat.

well, this is a kind of question that cannot have a general answer without reference to a specific case. There are so many aspects to be considered in a thorough investigation... this is Sherlock Holmes stuff, science of crime detection... it is not as raw as some qadi (judge) going through private parts of the victim with a magnifying glass and shouting out a verdict to a crowd of dishevelled bearded toothless apparition-like onlookers in scuffed clothes, as some may mistakenly want to imagine. 
 

The way the discussion has developed, it has no longer relevance to Islamic perspective on rape adultery and punishemnt for both. It is more of injustice performed by the very people appointed to establish order.

Ok, so let's go back to the original question - how does a woman who cannot get 4 witnesses to confirm she was attacked and that she was not part of mutually consenting adultery report that she has been raped without being punished for adultery?

Kim...

...through a thorough investigation that will take into account her story, evidences, events and all available data with reference to the crime and the accused (if he is known).

4 witnesses are required for someone to accuse someone else of adultery. For example for a husband to accuse his wife, or for a neighbour to accuse the wife of his neighbour, or for a relative to accuse the husband of her relative. In this case 4 witnesses are required, to prevent the gossipers' tongue from destroying innocent families out of spite and jealousy. If you saw something, produce another 4 witnesses... otherwise mind your own business and take a walk. I must add that going through specifics of the procedure one will come to a conclusion that it is very difficult to accuse and prove someone guilty of adultery.

Rape case is different. As i said earlier, and if more knowledgeable and informed people on this board could provide more evidence, it is not a conseted act and is most probably classified under transgression. In this case, a different and thorough investigation will take place, which may not require four witnesses but will welcome any. Once a woman makes a report of being raped... it is not adultery and she has to present her case accordingly... under transgression you need not come up with 4 witnesses if you can't. She should not conceal the crime... But many cultures, mainly due to tribal customs and beliefs, there is negative treatment of vicitms... which is un-Islaamic and purely cultural. This makes victims ashamed to report and conceal the crime... and can create more complexities in the future. Mind, this is not Islaam. 

Adultery may be artificially turned to rape when (despite initial consent of both) one of the parties accuses the other of using force... Most of the time, it is licentious men that fall victims (though the punishment is the same, anyway), for it is not always easy for a woman to rape a men, although must admit there are known and rare instances.

With regards to the case you made reference to, and as Sister Nausheen pointed out, it is not clear what was the woman jailed for, was it adultery or was it something else. It may be the act of pure injustice performed by the police, a frame, a falsification (remeber appearance versus reality)... even in so-called civilized countries they have heavily guarded facilities where rape and torture is brought upon people who don't know their crimes by the people that are assigned to guard and take care of the former. It is not about rape and adultery anymore... its evolution to a greater evil.

Assalamu Alaikum:

Unreported rape is a BIG problem in the Muslim world because of the points you bring up.  Also, sadly, many people believe that the girl/woman somehow asked for it... which is where we were as a society not too long ago. (I remember a movie with Jodie Foster in it where they tried to say that how she dressed caused her to be raped. Many Muslims I know of would agree with that! :P)

I think we need to set up more counseling centers/health clinics for women who have been raped (or victims of domestic violence.)  They need counseling.  They need to be tested for STDs, pregnancy, etc.  Even if they can't report it, these things need to happen.  In a culture of fear (for the victim), they won't even get these basics.  Also, in such a culture, providing a hymen-repair operation (which seems strange to Westerners) for these girls may help them "regain their honor" and move on.

There is a story from the Qur'an about A'isha (one of Prophet Muhammad's wives) being accused of improper behavior.  It took Allah(swt) to reveal verses to clear her.  Sadly, we all don't have that luxury. :)

I think a lot depends on the country and its customs.  Remember, many of these customs pre-date Islam...such as honor-killings.  Here's an interesting article criticizing Pakistan's rape laws from an Islamic perspective

http://www.karamah.org/articles_quraishi.htm - http://www.karamah.org/articles_quraishi.htm

Peace.

Thank you, Umsami, for helping illustrate my point.

And I must say (although this may get me branded as even ruder than some people already think I am) that I have had numerous conversations over the internet with males from Pakistan and the VAST majority of the ones I have spoken with seem to hate women with a passion. Yes, I have spoken with some nice Pakistani guys, too, but SO MANY of them seem to fully believe that women should shut up, should put up with whatever treatment comes their way and that they should be grateful for whatever they get. These men are rude, arrogant, possessing _absolutely_ small and closed minds...

I have boggled and despaired at what I have seen being spewed from these men over the internet and it makes me think that the women in Pakistan who are not incredibly affluent and who have little or no education really have no hope at all.

In places where women have no power and no voice, no education and where they are dominated by men wo ALSO have no education, the women really have very little hope.

Kim...

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,

Jazak allah khair sister UmmSami,  for an informative and detailed read on the zina ordinance in Pakistan.

To say  the least it answers the question Kim has raised, about what is the consequence of rape to a woman who cannot bring forth 4 witnesses. The answer being that rape and adultery  are not same and they are not treated as same within Islamic sharia.

However, most interesting is that Pakistani law, actually protects the criminal, instead of fascilitating to convict him! How could anyone not see this while implementing the law. One can only conclude that the socielty is very patrichial, and protects the honor of men under all circumstances as opposed to that of women, which is the underlying motive of Quranic commands and prohibitions in this case.

The article throws light on many issues, and clears many concepts. A very educational report indeed. Jazak allah khair.

Maa salaama,

Nausheen

kim! wrote: In places where women have no power and no voice, no education and where they are dominated by men wo ALSO have no education, the women really have very little hope.

So true. How sad that in the Qur'an and in ahadith both men and women are told to "seek knowledge even if it be in China".  A lot of it is economic.  A lot cultural.  But if you have an uneducated population who must "trust" an Imam/Shaykh who may or may not be very educated himself... or may be interpretating things with his own culture's bias... you're doomed.  That's one of the things that annoys me in the Muslim culture... what I call "Scholar/Imam-Worship."  People say, "Oh...a scholar or an imam said this..." as sort of an excuse to not think anymore.  They don't even care if he's right... they only care that Allah(swt) won't hold them accountable.

One very cool Christian organization (that doesn't proselytize) is called The Heifer Organization ( http://www.heifer.org - www.heifer.org )  They try and provide sustainable income for low income people (often women) by giving them a gift of an income producing animal, such as goats or bees.  They teach them how to take care of the animal, etc.  When that animal has offspring, the beauty of the program is that the woman is supposed to pass that offspring on to somebody else in her community... thus expanding the gift.  I've read about quite a few girls who were finally able to go to school due to the program.

I know a lot of different Pakistanis... and I think a lot has to do with where in Pakistan they were brought up and education level.  Some revere women... a friend I have fully believes that his wife (when he gets married) won't have to do any housework or the like. (Which is the view of some scholars, but not many that I've met.)  He brings his Mom tea in bed every morning... and no, he's not gay. ;) 

May Allah(swt) help all of our Sisters everywhere. 

Dear All,

Remember that Pakistan's past is a hindu culture. This culture still prevails in mostly ignorant (of Islam) people. Someone may argue or even scold me for making an excuse of hindu culture, but fact remains that according to this culture, women in any role, is not independant at all and needs a male member for all her life.(Refer: law of Manu chapt 9 (3)).

dr_sarah wrote: As i am a new member i dont know where to post this question but thought of the relevant topic...Its one of the same problems i have faced of being raped repeatedly at different occasions by brother in law with contraceptives on his end. Now not having any witness how can i prove to my hubby and family abt the rape by this brother in law which he profoundly denies in front of me and anyone....Can anyone help me...I am living a very happy married life with a year old son

If you are living in Switzerland (as your log-in implies) perhaps the Swiss authorities can help you?? I would think you could set up a surveillance camera or even a voice-activated tape recorder (to protect your modesty) which would give you the requisite proof. 

I would also contact a Rape Crisis center in your area.  They may be able to offer help.

I'm so sorry for what you are going through Sister.  I will make du'a for you.

Peace.

The problem was already addressed, there is no one here qualified to explain the Shariah Law pertaining to rape.  It is my understanding that in the case of rape, a woman who is attacked MUST cry out to prevent the rape and expose the attacker.  If she is in the populated area in which her cries can be heard, she is judged innocent.  If she is in an area where her cries cannot be heard, she is also deemed innocent.  If she doesn't cry out... well, I don't have the proof in front of me so I will stop there.  The problem lies in the fact that she was alone.

Islam gives women the dignity of giving responsibility for their safety to the men of her family.  She should not be without a male member of her family, one who can protect her, if she is likely to be accosted.  This is not an oppression on the woman, but a protection.  Who in their right mind would allow their 9 year old daughter to walk herself to school, even in our so called safe neighborhoods here in the west?

For the sister who was abused by the brother-in-law, you should go to a qualified scholar and pose your question to him.  Without proof, you may destroy your marriage.  If this activity has ceased, you must decide whether or not to pursue it, weighing the probability that he is now abusing another member of your family.  If he is still abusing you, you have a duty to expose him, you cannot allow him to touch you ever again!!! but it is imperative that you seek the advise of a knowledgable Sheikh in this matter, and not follow the advise of unqualified strangers.

Bismillah,

Sarah, How can you be happily married and yet getting raped by your brother-in-law?  Are you just making the best out of a bad situation?

Take my advice if you want this to stop.  Leave your happy marriage taking your son with you.  Resolve custody issues later.  Your husband is worthless, absolutely worthless Islamically because he has defaulted on his most important duty:  To protect you.

You have to ignore your loving feelings for him and act Islamically!  Waiting for a man to help you could take until Judgment Day!

(You could get a tape recorder if you are willing to be raped again to expose him.  But willing to be raped is oxymoronic.  So I reiterate: Leave now!

Trust me.  I care about you and your situation.  You must leave.  The sheikhs will give you differing opinons.  They may offer to help you, and you might find yourself in a worse situation.  Be careful of the help you actually accept.

Sister Sarah, please don't listen to people who tell you to leave your husband, see this is why I said do not follow unqualified strangers.

herjihad, it is not clear if she meant this is a past abuse or a continuing abuse.  It is not clear if her husband knows, it is not clear who she even told, so leave her alone!  You are not qualified to tell a woman to destroy her marriage and her child, and you make such a suggestion over a few vague sentences.  You see what women are capable of!  You think you know something and advise another woman to destroy her marriage!  Be quiet and mind your manners! Just because you have a hate on for all men doesn't mean all men are wrong.

Sister Sarah, you know what has happened, and you know your situation.  Take your inquiry to a qualified Sheikh who can help you decide what to do.  May Allah make it easy for you.

Bismillah,

Sister Sarah, If you need to talk further, please post something.  Of course, if the brother-in-law will never have the chance to do that again, that is a different situation. 

Your husband is still Islamically deficient because his primary duty is to protect you.  If he didn't trust you and protect you in this situation, what other situations will he fail you in?  You decide that because it is your life.  May Allah, SWT, make it easy for you. 

Remember to be careful trusting any man, even a sheikh.  Never be alone with a man, or in a group of men.  May Allah, SWT, give you the strength and wisdom you need all of your life.  Trust Allah, SWT, the Most Trustworthy, the Most Merciful.

Thank you Sisters for giving me advice. Actually i love my husband a lot and the same he does. The problem is to prove the rape which is very difficult and further difficult to point out the person who is part of this family his very own brother. Hub is in very confused state of mind and even i would be if in his place. Yes the rape has been repeatedly on different occasions. I dont want to break up..Yup i ll see a Sheikh to help me out and guide me. May Allah help me out of this situation. Please Pray

Sarah

I feel bad for you that this is happening to you. The only way to prove it to your husband is to look for "identifying marks" if this ever happens again. Like a birthmark or something you could not know. Of course you could carry a large stick and beat the $&$& out of him or scratch his face. That would give you DNA too and prove to your husband that what you are saying is true.

Also, no matter if you think you do not have proof. Report it to the police. This will let your husband know you are serious. It sounds incredulous to me that your husband has not already beat his brother within an inch of his life. Remember, if you can scratch him and get the DNA under your fingernails you can tie it to other DNA. Go to the hospital and see a doctor and let them know that you were raped. Also, write down everything that happened to you in the past, so that you have written proof too.

Hope some of this helps,

Lameese

Salam to dr_Sarah,

I'm sorry to "intrude" into the sisters forum (as I am a brother), however, I just had to say something as I cannot believe what I am hearing in this post!

If your husband is allowing this situation to occur, then either he thinks you are lying, or he is NOT A MAN AT ALL. A correct understanding of this issue does not require any understanding of Islam at all, just simple humanity and logic. My apologies to the knowledgable sisters, but you are complicating this issue and (maybe) confusing this sister.

As a husband, I can tell you that is someone raped my wife, whether it was my father, my brother or anyone else they would not BE ABLE to ever repeat this action. I will not go into details, but I think you get my point. Of course, I doubt that anyone would ever be able to attempt this, as my wife (in 5 years of marriage) has NEVER been alone with a non-muharram man. It is my duty, first and foremost, to protect my wife in children. If anything happens to them because of my negligence, then I AM RESPONSIBLE, and will be accountable before Allah (s.w.a.)

In fact, because I am a revert (convert), I would not even allow my wife to be alone with my father or grandfather as they are non-Muslims (although they are muharram). I don't have any reason to believe that anything would happen if I did, however, a husband must exercise a maximum degree of caution on these issues.

I don't know you, or your individual situation. As a result, I can't give you advice on what to do in your individual situation. I will pray for you, and ask that Allah (s.w.a) gives you relief and the right answer. Truly Allah is Al-Huda (the source of all guidance).

Salam

Assalamu alaikum brother Ali Zaki,

Your wife is blessed to have such a good and protective husband.  You must realize, though, that this is not the reality for many, many of us Muslim sisters.

Peace, ummziba.

Salam to all,

Thank you for your kind words Ummziba. I'm sure you're husband is blessed as well.

Dr_Sara, is you're husband a Muslim? (or does anyone else know).

Salam

Thank you all for showing your concerns. I am happy that there are people who can help others and give advice to others who are in need.

Yes, my husband is a muslim but not a perfect muslim. I am in a sitaution where i am not blaming my husband for all that i have had or i am suffering. Its just that the brother in law takes the advantage of the situation and he is good at removing all the proof. He is a doctor himself so he makes the move a calculated one. I cannot disclose at this forum in details, so its a complicated one where i cannot blame my husband and in reality a husband cannot protect a wife round the clock, except for some exceptions. I love my husband and i never had any complaints as a wife.

May God give me and all others who are in distress, the strength to face and get out of these sorta situations.

Regards

Salam alakum dr_Sarah,

Belive me, I have not led a sheltered life (I was raised in Los Angeles, Ca. until 21 as a "Christian" (in name only) and a singer in a "rock" band until Allah (s.w.a.) guided and corrected me). I am the last person in the world who likes to give advice to someone (especially unsolicited advice) and I don't know (nor do I have a desire to know) the details of your life situation.

I must say, however, that my heart went out to you when I read you post and I was genuinely astonished at how this could be happening in any type of household, much less a Muslim one. My main motivation for posting was to give you another Muslim husbands perspective (as I am aware that this forum is intended for Womens issues).

I am not presumptious enought to tell you what you should do, however, I will stand by my statement that the main responsiblity (especially for a Muslim man) of a husband is to protect his wife and family. I believe that even the providing for (which is also wajib for a man) comes second in importance. The reason is logical. Most women can provide for themselves and their children financially (if neccessary, especially in the West), however, they cannot (in most cases) defend themselves when attacked by other men. So who can defend them EXCEPT THEIR HUSBAND.

I would strongly encourage you to seek counseling together from a pious Muslim scholar that you trust, and you think will be helpful. If you cannot find one in your area, let me know and I will see if any of my connections can give you a referal in Switzerland (or another place, if this is not where you are).

I will continue to remember you in my dua'a. May Allah help you and give you his guidance and mercy in this difficult time.

Salam.

ONE MORE THING,

TO ALL SISTERS (and brothers);

Tonight is Laylat Al'Jummat, and the gates of Allah's mercy are open wide tonight (as we all know). I humbly request that we remember dr_sarah in our dua.

Salam

Peace to Jenni,

" Muslim men like to interpret the Hadiths to thier advantage to take maximum advantage of women and abuse them to the fullest."

" I feel sorry for women of the world, will Allah Pak forgive the men?"

I must object to this statemet, as I am a Muslim man. I have seen many gender specific prejudicial statements (directed against both genders) in the "Womens (Sisters) " and " Men (Brothers)" Forum. This is not helpful, and only causes fitna (division) in our Umma. Please (both Brothers and Sisters), stop posting these things!

I'm sorry if you have had some negative experiences with Muslim men in your life, however, there are some Muslim men who have harmonious and happy lives with their wives and children because the commandments of Allah (s.w.a.) are obeyed and the Prophets (and the Ahly Al'Bayts) directives and advice are followed.

Peace

Peace to Jenni,

" there are many good Muslim men in the world. And non Muslim men may be worse"

Ahsan! Thank you for the correction. I knew (when I read your post) that you did not believe what you were saying (Just like most brothers who post ridiculous, anti-women statements are just reacting emotionally about their individual situation and generalize their feelings.) However, I only made the statement because I want to encourage the posting of true and rational statements. When a person says "All these people are like this" it is like a beautiful person (man or women) wearing a dirty or torn garment (i.e., it makes them look ugly even if they are not, in reality, unattractive).

"The man in Muslim coutries is allmost never convicted of rape"

Again, I would discourage you from generalizing. I am not familiar with the specific case to which you refer, however, I do know that only those people who have access to ALL the evidence and testimony from all parties and are qualified can (possibly) make a judgement on a specific case. I am not defending those who are accussed of this crime (or acusing the alleged victim), I am saying that we cannot possibly come to any definate conclusions on this case based on a news reporters opinion.  

In general, Rape is not reported as often in Muslim countries. Whether that is because less rapes occur or because they are not reported I don't know. However, what I can tell you is that the crime of Rape is dealt with much more severly in Muslim society when it is proven to have occured. In my experience, if a rapist is known as such, he will often never make it (alive) to the courthouse. I am not defending vigilantism, however, this is the reality.

Peace

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file:///C:%5CUsers%5CPINKPA%7E1%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_colorschememapping.xml - Hi Mystical,

I deal alot with crime... I study it, I teach self-defense etc. And frankly , western secular law is  just as faulty. 
1. There is not always physical proof. The difficulty in prosecuting rape is why so many rapists are not caught. Most often it is a 'he-said'-  she said' situation. 
2. If say someone were to break into my apartment and hold a gun to my head and tell me to submit (*threat of violence is one way to subdue women) and I submit, to save my own life, there may be very little of the 'proof' you say exists. Most women who do submit do so out of threat of greater violence. Even though there is no 'proof' it is still a rape.

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3. I do not care about the 'system' of justice that man tries to create / monitor. The reality is that we humans are failings.

4. I do not think you need 4 witnesses in a case of rape.   I will try and find the information.  Also I do not think Shariah law is actually enforced in most places. -
file:///C:%5CUsers%5CPINKPA%7E1%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_colorschememapping.xml - 6. Having studied crime, there is little justice in this world. Innocent people go to jail. Just see with advent of DNA testing how many people were freed. People are falsely accused all the time. Even in crimes of rape. 

file:///C:%5CUsers%5CPINKPA%7E1%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_colorschememapping.xml -  

file:///C:%5CUsers%5CPINKPA%7E1%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_colorschememapping.xml - -   But no society is free from crime. Ultimately on the Day of Judgement we will answer for ourselves.

please escuse the underline, could not get rid of it
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Untested Rape Kits Sit in Cold Storage

By http://www.alternet.org/authors/10527/ - Amy Goodwin , http://www.msmagazine.com/ - Ms. Magazine . Posted http://www.alternet.org/ts/archives/?date%5bF%5d=03&date%5bY%5d=2009&date%5bd%5d=27&act=Go/ - March 27, 2009 .

"Although the Law demanded stoning as punishment for the woman caught in adultery Jesus did not demand that this be carried out instead he said to her accusers " Let you who is without sin throw the first stone".  I am wondering what would Mohammad have done in this situation?"

Jesus did not demand the punishment not because she was not guilty or deserving of punishment, but rather because those who accused her were just as, if not more guilty. It wasn't mercy, it was a lesson to the pharisees and hypocrits.