I'm not one here to tell anyone how to do their job and I'm not going to rather, I'm going to say how displeased I am that I was censored for a genuine question. Yes I saw the pretty red letters exclaiming that I shouldn't post explicit sexual content and to "go ask someone else" but if the purpose of dialogue in any forum is to learn why wouldone suggest to take their inquiries somewhere else? I mean, when people with curiousity on Islam do we say "Go ask a Sheikh what Islam is!" Of course not. Of course you would say that the curiousity is sexual in nature either, but the end point amounts to the same, the inquiries were purposeful because it involved knowledge seeking.

Censoring me for what? Because I was discussing birth control and certain methods? The problem with our Ummah is that we don't discuss these things. I'm sorry my current masters degree I'm working on is Psychology which I'm emphasizing social behavior. This, is one of the things I'm discussing with my faculty advisor, in cordial dialogue of course as it pertains to what I'm currently studying. My point is that children regardless whether they wander in a men's forum or a woman's they will be exposed regardless. Censorship of sexual questions is one thing but censoring an inquiry for the purpose of seeking knowledge is another.

I knew about sex even before my mother talked to me about it I mean, children are curious beings and they will know. Anyway, I wanted to vent. The rules do not make sense. The censorship does not make sense. As a community if we do not sit down and talk about things even if they are sexually explicit we will still be in the dark in a lot of things like we are now anyway. We need to let go this pride crap! I mean is talking about sex openly cultureally offensive? Hmmmm

You know if you going to talk about birth control it is evitable to talk about sex. I was surprised to see the topic of birth control and in the men's section, but I thought Rookiaya wanted to know men's views and opinions. But I did see all this coming when i saw the title

It is the responsibility of a child's parents to educate him/her regarding sex.  If the parents have owned up to this responsibility and have properly and adequately explained sex to them, even if they did read a mature question on this site, they would certainly not be shocked or puzzled.  If the parents absolutely do not want them to read anything of a sexual nature, the parents should take measures to assure the child is not granted access to forums, or forum topics where sexual matters are brought up.  My faith does not believe in any sexual activity until marriage, and it does not believe in birth control, except for "natural family planning" (NFP), which may very well not be the same as Muslims believe.  That is just our beliefs.  Never believe in abortion for any reason either.

Maybe parents need to be a little more proactive in what sites they permit their children to access.  Just a thought.

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

Why are men and women are advised to lower their gaze? why are we asked to dress modestly? Im sure both brother israfil and brother ak are aware of islamic concept of 'Haya'. Yes many lady companions asked question from Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wassalam and after him, many men companions and rest of muslims asked question from Ayishah (ra). These questions involved all sort of topics, but you need to remember that these two were the masters of this knowledge. when you asking a scholar you can ask him/her anything and there is no restriction on that. But at the same time topics like this are not encouraged to be discussed among genders to maintain islamic haya. Islam does not inhibit a mother telling her son about these matters neither a father to a daughter but even then it is liked to have mother telling a daughter and father helping out son. And please dont ask me to quote an Ayah on it because like every other society the morals are not just based on the rulings.

wassalam

Salaam O Alaikum Wahrahmatullah

I've tried to remain silent on this post but due to the last post, I half to reply to protect my own honor and dignity. I realize that after I reply the moderators will most likely lock this discussion down. Which isn't Islamic,  which isn't healthy, and it doesn't offer the members a real voice.  Why this whole board on this website exists is confusing to me if you don't have the maturity and the compassion for your fellow Muslim to actually try to hear them out before you slap down a sanctimonious judgement about somebody else. You're going to have to choose one or the other. Abuse of one's authority is cheap!

I am the one who introduced what the moderators and rules of this server believe to be sexually explicit. Brother Israfil did not introduce any matieral, and responded to the valid Islamic authorities, and references that I quoted as sources for my arguements for the use of birth control.  I was the only one in that discussion that brought any valid Islamic references instead of engaging in a purely emotional, feelings oriented, opinionated discussion regarding the issue.  Why people are disrespecting brother Israfil and talking down to him like a child is beyond belief. I expected better.

Islam is NOT a purely emotive religion.  As Muslims we are required to proove ourselves with evidence or daleel from valid Islamic authorities.  Feelings an opinions on some issues are irrelevant.  I'm prepared to duel with the daleel I have because I know I did not engage in behaviour that was calling anybody to anything harram, deviant, or scandalous.  The overreaction of some here is astonishing to me.  I'm not Hyster Prenn in the Scarlet Letter people. What did I say that was so bad to deserve such a puritanical reaction? Why? is all I want to know?

I am NOT some type of whore, I DO have hayat, and I was not illicit in any manner.  I sent everything I typed to three outside Islamic parties including a personal friend who works for ISNA in connection with their fiqh council.  I did not get to finish my statement, I actually had to go.  I am deeply offended by the reaction of the moderators here and wonder why it is they feel they have any moral authority to make such statements about my haya. I'm not a fool, and I wasn't born yesterday! It's obvious who they are talking about.

The offense was quoting a sheik and his works using the C word and the O word regarding the procreaton process. I did not get to finish my statement. So I will finish now.

The point of what I was trying to say was that:

Some shuyuk disagreed about the c word as a form of birth control because it cheats one spouse of out of enjoyment, can lead to a certian degree of impotence, and can cause frusteration or tensions that can cause one spouse to committ adultery, have affairs, or engage in deviant behaviour. Marriage is a valid union before Allah, and this is a right of both spouses in marriages, and creating situations where some ones rights are interrupted is not Islamically sound. That was all that I wanted to say. I was using biological or medical terminology not sleezy sluty terminology. I tried to be as tactful and professional as possible.

May Allah really guide us, it's as if, some believe they are Allah's elect to the exclusion of all other humanbeings. I have never seen such arrogance, such hubris - what a crying shame.

I understand this server is not my property, and I understand that rules apply to everyone but the moderators.  BUT.... Some times moderators, people don't feel safe enough within their own communities because of the disdainful, immature, cultural, racist behaviour of muslims to ask questions, where are they supposed to go? It should of been a privallege and gift to you, that people felt a sense of community here because they felt safe enough to ask. What a major mistake.

Salaam o alaikum

Just in case some one attempts to attach the inegrity of my marriage let me also say this:

My husband is aware of my so called interactions with other men. I cc all e-mails to him when I correspond with other men. I'm not st**id.

We don't have a parent child relationship. I am free to be who I am, and my deen is never questioned, but we trust, we respect, and we love each other. My husband has never looked down on me for this. I'm not a " can I" " can I "  " can I " woman- never was and never will be AllahuAkbar!

What I find so hyporcritical about the American Muslim community is we can't talk to our fellow Muslim brother, but these Muslims brother go to work, and shake hands with their femal supervisors, these men go to work and sit alone with their female superviors?

What is it going to take for our community to grow up and excel?

No wonder we are getting left behind.  Oh well...

Denial saves nought

I think you presented a very good post, Aminata.  As a non-muslim my opinion probably does not hold much weight, but I feel you are a wonderful, moral and decent lady.  I am happy to learn you have such a good marriage and a wonderful husband.  There is and always has been discrimination between men and women....from ALL religions.  I hope someday it will end.

Allah/God Bless.

Hello Sister Patty

Thank you for your respect, your empathy, and ability to hear me out with out slapping down my character.

Ma'sha'A'llah, I have been very blessed by such a truly Mericful Lord for my family.

And by the way, who ever told you your opinion has no weight or not much weight is sadly mistaken. There are many non-Muslims such as the late Sir Richard Burton, and John Esposito( including Catholic clergy) who do a better job respecting, and teaching Islam, than we do as Muslims.

What I'm finding is that some Muslim women for what ever reason, I no longer even care to know, have serious issues with other Muslim women especially convert women who are educated be it secularly or Islamically or both.

I try very hard to when discussing issues to not always focus on my feelings and opinions about the issue but to introduce some type of daleel from some valid Islamic source.

People who are not educated or used to belonging to social circles where freedom of conscience, freedom of speech, and freedom of choice are respected will always have hateful opinions about those who do have this privallege because they made the choice. This is why I'm camping out with my Unitarian Universalists friends, what wonderful solace!

Thank you.

Glad to know I'm not a whore to somebody!

P.S. - I wonder if they even understand the classical reference I made!

Israfil,

I hope you mean this is your last post on this topic....not your very last post forever on any topic!

God's Peace.

Patty wrote: Israfil, I hope you mean this is your last post on this topic....not your very last post forever on any topic! God's Peace.

Nopes. I don't think so. But I am longing for the day when you and Israfil bid us goodbye (once more). 

I'm genuinely sorry you feel that way, candid.  But you're entitled to your feelings.

May Allah Grant You Wisdom

Nopes. I don't think so. But I am longing for the day when you and Israfil bid us goodbye (once more).

If Br Israfil one day decides to renounce Islam solely becouse of the behavior of muslims towards him [which is common for muslim converts] what position do you think you would be in on Qiyamah.

rami

i find the last bit of your post very offensive to brother israfil and to reverts in general. do u have stats to back up this assumption that  its common for muslim converts to renounce islam, solely becos of the behaviour of muslims towards them. its statements like these that divide us as muslims.

islam is a religion for mankind. it doesnt belong to those who were born and raised as muslims. by reverting, you not doing other muslims a favour. this is between u and allah SWT, unto whom u will be brought back and held accountable for your actions on this duniya. let us move away from the mindset that we have exclusive ownership of islam.

rookaiya, you misunderstood rami, it was not towards israfil but to candid about his behaviour. Candid made a poor remark about israfil and patty.

For both posts of Mrs Dia and Israfil's post  

Angel wrote: rookaiya, you misunderstood rami, it was not towards israfil but to candid about his behaviour. Candid made a poor remark about israfil and patty.

Poor remark? At least technically, there is nothing offensive or insulting about what I said. Just my opinion. No accusations.

They actually deserve much worse, they often insult me personally. 

http://www.albalagh.net/_images/bismillah.gif">

The prophet sallallahu alaihe wassallam said, every religion has its characteristics and the characteristic of my religion in haya (modesty).

It surprises a muslim to find fellow brothers and sisters debating if particular subject falls in the category of modesty or not.  It takes only common sense and perhaps very little intelligence to discern.

It is incomprehensible for a sane, intelligent mind why matters which should be discussed only in some specific settings are insisted in a public place, that too by people who wish to follow the guidance of our beloved messenger (sallallahu alaihe wassallam).

Allah says in the Quran: Say, if you love allah then follow me, and allah will love you!

The prophet (saw) was specifically told by Allah to tell the believers, that if they want Allah to love them, then the way to achieve this is by the way of following the messenger!

Where is followership when we want to do things in manner that suits our desires? Where is submission, when we want to follow the dictates of our intellect?

Alhamdulillah muslims do not need to copy the west, or become like them. The problem with the ummah is not that we dont have sightedness of the backward progressing west. The problem of the ummah is that it has lost sight in the illumination that comes through following the deen with avidness.

Israfil was thinking of leaving islam since quite sometime. If this was because of the behavior of some muslims, then he should do it fast. Because this means, in the first place he did not enter this deen for Allah. He entered for something else.

If this is for the sake of Allah alone, then it does not matter how others behave, because on the day of judgement every soul shall be questioned for its own doings, not for the doings of the neighbour or a distant relative.

A believer has not perfected his Imaan unless he hates to fall in kufr just like a man would hate to be thrown in fire.

btw, in my opinion one should be banned if he wants to teach reproductive biology and female reproductive anatomy on the forum!

censorship of posts is just not enough, because after that they come whinning in the complaints section.

If one is so interested in " teaching " then one must first acquire professional training, then go to professional institutions that impart this knowledge!

We just did a course on fiqh of hayd online. The teacher was specialized in this very fiqh. And she taught everything. And we students asked questions from everywhere, which she answerd in details. Alhamdulilalh there were brothers and sisters together in class, but this was an appropriate set up, and things were said with proprieties.  it is not that islam puts a taboo on learning things that matter in life. But Islam does put a taboo on doing things in a manner that is not befitting to the characteristics of the deen.

Israfil was thinking of leaving islam since quite sometime. If this was because of the behavior of some muslims, then he should do it fast. Because this means, in the first place he did not enter this deen for Allah. He entered for something else.

They won't understand. He is their pet.

Opinions should not hurt. Opinions are not claims or accusations. Just a matter of personal taste. Nothing else.

BTW, you don't know anything between me and Israfil. His posts about me are so insulting that they get deleted by the moderators. He calls me a non-muslim (I never once called him a non-muslim), calls me an a$$, retard etc. I didn't ever insult him so crudely.

i  have personal experience with israfil.  we had a misunderstanding of some kind where i felt that he was insulting me and accusing me of lying etc. but alhamduliah thats been cleared up now.

so i  apologise, candid, for butting in here and commetning on something, when clearly i dont know the history of the persons invloved.

Bismillah irrahman irraheem

Assalaamualaikum.

Israfil wrote:

Yes I saw the pretty red letters exclaiming that I shouldn't post explicit sexual content and to "go ask someone else"

I did not say "go ask someone else" You are misrepresenting me. I only suggested that you should ask the sheikh yourself because you were engaging in  too much unnecessary  detail with the sister. Why I had to mention the �sheikh�? Because the sheikh was already in your conversation. You were commenting on the shaikh�s statement and asking the sister to explain it. So all I said was, ask the sheikh yourself.

 but if the purpose of dialogue in any forum is to learn why wouldone suggest to take their inquiries somewhere else? I mean, when people with curiousity on Islam do we say "Go ask a Sheikh what Islam is!" Of course not.

Again , I never  told you "Go ask a Sheikh what Islam is!". Whenever you have wanted to know Islamic point of view, all of us here have tried to help you. Asking questions to know more about islam is perfectly alright.

Of course you would say that the curiousity is sexual in nature either, but the end point amounts to the same, the inquiries were purposeful because it involved knowledge seeking.

Read again guideline no. 17.  Materials that are explicit in nature or pertaining to sexuality will not be tolerated - even when the purpose is genuine. 

The problem with our Ummah is that we don't discuss these things.

Blaming the ummah all the time does not solve problems brother. If the Ummah is being modest, how does it harm the society? The actual problem arises when we forget our identity as muslims and start aping other cultures.

There are etiquettes for everything. On an Islamic forum, we follow Islamic etiquette.

Anyway, I wanted to vent. The rules do not make sense. The censorship does not make sense. As a community if we do not sit down and talk about things even if they are sexually explicit we will still be in the dark in a lot of things like we are now anyway. We need to let go this pride crap! I mean is talking about sex openly cultureally offensive? Hmmmm

This is your opinion and aren�t you trying to force your opinion on others?

We see from the mannerisms of Allah and His Messenger sallahu alayhi wasallam that their way of addressing intimate matters is dignified and polite  Its ok to ask a knowledgable person about your doubts.

Brother ak, people did enquire the messenger of Allah sallahu alayhi wasallam because he was the most knowledgable. But did they discuss things in detail with opposite genders?

From Bukhari and Muslim:

It is narrated on the authority of 'Imran b. Husain that the Prophet (may peace and blessings be upon him) said: modesty brings forth nothing but goodness. (Book http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=001&translator=2&start=0&number=0059" target=_blank rel=nofollow>#001 , Hadith http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=001&translator=2&start=0&number=0059#0059" target=_blank rel=nofollow>#0059 )

Assalaamualakium Candid,

If brother Israfil has insulted you, your job is to report it to mod/admin. We will insha allah take care of it. You are breaking the guidelines by insulting him .

wassalaam.

guideline 15. We will not tolerate personal attacks on participants from ANY Community (personal attacks are defined as comments that reflect upon the person instead of their opinion). Furthermore, any insults intended to ANY religion, ANY prophet of God, or ANY holy scripture shall be removed.

amah wrote: Assalaamualakium Candid, If brother Israfil has insulted you, your job is to report it to mod/admin. We will insha allah take care of it. You are breaking the guidelines by insulting him . wassalaam. guideline 15. We will not tolerate personal attacks on participants from ANY Community (personal attacks are defined as comments that reflect upon the person instead of their opinion). Furthermore, any insults intended to ANY religion, ANY prophet of God, or ANY holy scripture shall be removed.

Walai kum as Salaam,

We are in the same forum and you read the same posts as I do. Its not an excuse that the moderators didn't know when others made a personal comments against me. Its not my responsibility to report to you who has insulted me where. Besides, in many of the threads where I have been outright insulted, moderators have posted their own messages, they certainly couldn't be unaware of that.

If you don't edit posts (with a curt reprimand) by other members wherein they make personal comments against me, it clearly indicates  such behavior is tolerated by the moderators. Frankly, I don't have any problem with that, as long as I am not prevented to reply back in the same way so as to stop others from insulting me.

Where on earth did people thought that Israfil was leaving islam??

As for candid, he has some issue , its also going on at the pond.

candid wrote: Its not an excuse that the moderators didn't know when others made a personal comments against me. Its not my responsibility to report to you who has insulted me where.

umm, candid how many forums are there here at the boards and how many thread are going ?? and how many moderators are there and how many at one time or no time??

How can you expect them to know ???

Angel wrote: Where on earth did people thought that Israfil was leaving islam?? As for candid, he has some issue , its also going on at the pond.

Nopes. Not really. In fact, in this forum I don't have any issue with anyone except Israfil.

In fact, it all started after I got pissed off when Israfil talked condescendingly to me and called me ignorant person etc.

But he had been ruder to me than I was to him.

candid wrote: Angel wrote: Where on earth did people thought that Israfil was leaving islam?? As for candid, he has some issue , its also going on at the pond. Nopes. Not really. In fact, in this forum I don't have any issue with anyone except Israfil. In fact, it all started after I got pissed off when Israfil talked condescendingly to me and called me ignorant person etc. But he had been ruder to me than I was to him.

no, i'm not talking about you and israfil, i meant just you and the issue of insults/offending remarks, that you have an issue with it like some grudge you always go on about it, you have it had the pond to.  

Angel wrote: candid wrote: Angel wrote: Where on earth did people thought that Israfil was leaving islam?? As for candid, he has some issue , its also going on at the pond. Nopes. Not really. In fact, in this forum I don't have any issue with anyone except Israfil. In fact, it all started after I got pissed off when Israfil talked condescendingly to me and called me ignorant person etc. But he had been ruder to me than I was to him. no, i'm not talking about you and israfil, i meant just you and the issue of insults/offending remarks, that you have an issue with it like some grudge you always go on about it, you have it had the pond to.

Yeah, I get it now. My point is, however you might dislike me for my views, you should not insult me (if you don't want to be insulted by me).