How did Jesus die
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Topic: How did Jesus die
Posted By: senekerk
Subject: How did Jesus die
Date Posted: 30 January 2007 at 4:56pm
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I know Islam says Jesus(pbuh) was not crucified. then how did he die? And is he in heaven now? And what about his return? ------------- Kay |
Replies:
Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 30 January 2007 at 6:15pm
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Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem Hi Kay, here are some veses from the Quran about Jesus, And surely they slew him not. But Allah (God) raised him unto Himself. (Holy Qur'an, Surah Nisaa, Verse 157-158) Verse 4:156-159 "That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): 'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them." "Behold! the angels said, 'Oh Mary! God gives you glad tidings of a Word from Him. His name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter, and in (the company of) those nearest to God. He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. <>zSB(3,3)
He shall be (in the company) of the righteous... And God will teach him
the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel'" (3:45-48)."He [Jesus] said: 'I am indeed a servant of God. He has given me revelation and made me a prophet; He has made me blessed wheresoever I be; and He has enjoined on me prayer and charity as long as I live. He has made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable. So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)!' Such was Jesus the son of Mary. It is a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it, 'Be,' and it is" (19:30-35). "When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: 'Now I have come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which you dispute. Therefore, fear God and obey me. God, He is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him -- this is a Straight Way.' But sects from among themselves fell into disagreement. So woe to the wrongdoers, from the penalty of a Grievous Day!" (43:63-65) "And behold! God will say [i.e. on the Day of Judgment]: 'Oh Jesus, the son of Mary! Did you say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God?' He will say: 'Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would indeed have known it. You know what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Yours. For You know in full all that is hidden. Never did I say to them anything except what You commanded me to say: 'Worship God, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I lived among them. When You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a witness to all things'" (5:116-117). "Christ, the son of Mary, was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how God makes His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!" (5:75). Allah raised him up to heaven and at the end of time he will return back down to earth to fight the Anti Christ. You may like to read the following,http://www.islam.tc/prophecies/jesus.html - http://www.islam.tc/prophecies/jesus.html - and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness. |
Posted By: Arab
Date Posted: 30 January 2007 at 8:56pm
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Salam alaikom. Jesus never was killed and never did die, he is in heaven right now peace be upon him and wil come back to fight the anti Christ (called dajjal in Arabic) defeat him and then unite the world uner one relegion one brotherhood and peace will spread in the entire world. He will rule for a couple of years (I cant remember the number exactly) then he will die, since he never died in the first place. After that in a couple of years will be the day of judgment and the end of the world. I advise you tolisten to Hamza Yusufs lectures on the end of the world and its signs he gives great details and explains. Keep in mind many signs have already happened, these signs were told to us by our beloved prophet PBUH and some of them were: that we would no longer use hourses and camels but instead use something as if it were a moving house (cars). He also said you would se some place else in the place you already are (TVs) he also said great distances would be traveled in short periods of times (air plains) he also said that sanctions would be impossed on Iraq and many would day (the sanctions possed on Iraq after the 2nd gulf war which caused almost 2 million to die). He also said that people would no longer know the honest person from the desepting person. He also said that Arabic woman would enter markets wearing shorts (this was completely impossible to imagine 1400 years ago. Arabs were the most conservative people even before Islam, in fact, some Arab tribes use to kill their daughters in fear of them disshonoring them when they grow, of course Islam came and forbid that) and this has happened in many Arabic countries today. So listen 2 Hamza Yusufs lectures on these things theye very nice and he gives great detail on the coming of Jesus. First the Anti CHrist would come and will be greeatly followed by the magority of the world, than he would claim to be God, than Christ would come and defeat him, than Gog and Maggog (I think thats what you call them in eng) would come. After that, Christ peace be upon him would also defeat them, then he would rule the world and it becoming very peacefull and living in harmony like never before. PS: I found this guys profile and his vids are just great: http://www.youtube.com/user/Converted2Islam - http://www.youtube.com/user/Converted2Islam
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Posted By: senekerk
Date Posted: 31 January 2007 at 10:14am
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Bismillah Ar-Rahmaan Ar rahaheem Rami, This is a quote from the link you gave me III. The Blessings of Hadhrat Isa (Jesus) (A.S.) 1 Hadhrat Isa (A.S.) will descend and stay on earth. His Marriage, Death and Deputies After his descension on earth, Hadhrat Isa (A.S.) will marry. He will have children, and he will remain on earth 19 years after marriage. He will pass away and Muslims will perform his Janaza Salaat and bury him net to Rasulullah (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam). (Tirmidhi Does the qur'an speak of this? Where does this come from? ------------- Kay |
Posted By: senekerk
Date Posted: 31 January 2007 at 10:20am
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Arab, I advise you tolisten to Hamza Yusufs lectures on the end of the world and its signs he gives great details and explains I am on dail-up modem and can not view the youtube.com or other videos very well. are the above lectures written some where? ------------- Kay |
Posted By: Arab
Date Posted: 31 January 2007 at 7:41pm
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Ill tru to find them. The article u posted comes from hadiths on the signs of the last day. |
Posted By: TRUUTHZ
Date Posted: 21 March 2007 at 8:31am
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MOD EDIT ***You are spamming*** ------------- I was bold in the pursuit of knowledge, never fearing to follow truth and reason to whatever results they led." --Thomas Jefferson (1812) |
Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 05 June 2008 at 1:40pm
Ths Bible is the place to go to find out all you need to know.
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senekerk wrote:Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 06 June 2008 at 3:51am
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It is the most important subject to know "What happened to Jesus?" Whatever is written above by arab and whatever is written in that long statement by the mufti is not correct. It is all wrong according to the Quran and Hadith and bible. Isa a.s. has died a natural death at the age of about 120 years as mentioned in the Hadith. Also in another Hadith, The prophet s.a.w.s. had said "If Moses and Jesus were alive today, they would not have any recourse except to follow in my footsteps." i.e. they would have to follow my law ( My Shariayat) If the Jews could not kill Jesus ( by Qatal) or if they could not kill him on the cross, it does not mean that he never died. If Allah raised him to himslef, that can only be spiritual raising of ranks and not bodily raising. Allah has no body that Jesus will go to him bodily and sit with God. The one most important Hadith (in Bukhari and Muslim, both) is telling that the Isa who will come back to earth in later times will not necessarily be the same old Isa, the son of Maryam, the son of woman. He would not be the same person. All these things are found in the Islamic books, i.e. Quran and Hadith and hsitory. Please do not think that Isa a.s. is alive now. No prophet is alive now. All prophets and messengers have passed away. ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 09 June 2008 at 7:09am
An important question is, what is he doing now and what will he do in the future!
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Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 10 June 2008 at 9:40am
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minuteman - You place the value of hadith over the Quran? ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 10 June 2008 at 6:06pm
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My question to Believer , Robin or any other christians It's your belief that God does n't go any change. Can u let me know , if Isa AS , ascended to heavens, spiritually or physically ? ------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent." |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 11 June 2008 at 6:23am
Dear believer (momin), I do not place Hadith above the Quran. ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 11 June 2008 at 2:43pm
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Does the Quran say that Jesus died? ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 11 June 2008 at 3:05pm
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GOD's character does not change, His love, righteuosness, etc. How GOD interacts with us has changed over time.
Do you believe that paradise/heaven is directly above the earth? A physical place or a spiritual place? ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 11 June 2008 at 5:53pm
I am sorry to say Robin, the Bible is not so reliable, with its inconsistancies I would not bet my penny on its credibility let alone put my trust in it to find truth.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 12 June 2008 at 1:36am
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You know as a Christian what my beliefs are, but I did find a very interesting video from the BBC that gave a theory that is worth a thought or two? For those of us that believe in Revelation and Prophets, of course, we would believe the word of our respective Prophets, but I found it interesting none the less. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1669658378154953060&q=Did+Jesus+Die+on+the+Cross&ei=ut9QSIK4DoGgqQPxgNWqDA - http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1669658378154953060&q=Did+Jesus+Die+on+the+Cross&ei=ut9QSIK4DoGgqQPxgNWqDA |
Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 14 June 2008 at 7:21am
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Prophets and Messengers of Allah were equipped with the purest of souls or spirits. Their spirits were so strong and powerful. For the souls of these prophets, it can seep through and envelope the whole body, that could make them invisible. Ever heard of spirit over body? And stories of waliyullah or 'friends of Allah' apppearing at two different places at one time? If waliyullah have these abilities, what is a Prophet of Allah? We should know the power of our souls. With these souls, we can see with our eyes, we hear with our ears, we can breathe through our nose and so on. Without this soul of ours, we are useless, nothing. And this is the same soul that will be answerable to God AlMighty.
Jesus is not dead yet. He like any human being will die, when his soul leaves his body. He was just taken up to God AlMighty just like Muhammad was taken to God AlMighty in Isra' and Mi'raj (the night journey).
------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention. |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 15 June 2008 at 1:42am
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Beliver, I understood your first question from your second question. My reply to your first question is still the same. I do not give priority to anything above Quran while not neglecting the Hadith too. My reply to your second question is that the death of Jesus is well proved from the Quran. It would be interesting to prove the life of Jesus from the quran and Sunnah. It is impossible to show anything.
Not a word will be found in the Quran and sunnah telling us that Jesus is still alive. Not a single word be found telling that he has not passed away peacefully.
------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 17 June 2008 at 7:59am
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YUSUFALI: Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute. PICKTHAL: (And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me ye will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein ye used to differ. SHAKIR: And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 18 June 2008 at 3:40am
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believer, the first sentence of all the three translators is meaningful. I am going to take thee or I am to gather thee to myself or I am going to terminate your stay on earth... all these mean the clear spiritual departure of Jesus from this earth. That means natural death.
You feel that the verse is showing that Jesus is still alive. I believe there is no such thing int he Quran or Hadith. Please bring something else. Thanks. ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 18 June 2008 at 8:01pm
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minuteman - I was showing http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=58927&FID=7 - Nur_Ilahi the passage that shows that Jesus was taken up to heaven by Allah.
How does this show a natural death? How do you know it wasn't when Jesus was on the cross. Jesus did die quicker then usual. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 19 June 2008 at 3:04pm
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believer,
according to the Quran:
4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of God.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 19 June 2008 at 10:04pm
Don't you see a problem with this?
Yes he was taken down a few later but unless he had extensive wounds and bled profusely then maybe. I know Jesus had a stab wound to his side but Mary Madalenge was attending to that wound.
Being taken down earlier doesn't necessarily mean he died earlier than usual.
-------------  ~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 26 June 2008 at 3:33pm
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Mark 15
44Pilate was surprised to hear that he was already dead. Summoning the centurion, he asked him if Jesus had already died. 45When he learned from the centurion that it was so, he gave the body to Joseph.
4:157 That they said, "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of God.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
The Jews didn't crucify Jesus the Romans did.
Because He was alive sitting at the right hand of GOD ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 27 June 2008 at 6:17pm
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believer,
your Bible suggests that Romans did not have anything to do with the so called killing or crucifixion of Jesus (pbuh), it was the Jews who were after him to kill him.
And as far as propht Jesus sitting on the right hand of God, that will make God sitting on the left side of Jesus, so I don't think you should take it litrally. Besides God is not a physical being, to be limited to left or right.
The final Testament, the Quran, confirms that God raised Jesus (pbuh) up to Himself. (So, yes we beleive that he is with God in the company or the righteous.) And God saved him from the humiliation Jews were planning.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 27 June 2008 at 9:00pm
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Good point hasan, sitting on the right side and thus God being on the left side of Jesus. I hope one day the christians will come to real words and less metaphors (symbols). If one is sitting on the right side and the other (God) on the right side then that makes it two persons too?????
Hasan, you are right. It was not the Romans trying to kill Jesus. It was his own people (The Jews). Pilate wanted to release Jesus. But the Jews did not allow. They shouted at the top of their voice to Crucify Jesus.
Why Crucify Jesus?? The charge was balsphemy and the punishment for blasphemy in the bible OT is stoning to death (not crucifixtion). Why they were adamant that Jesus should be crucified?
That is because they did not believe in him and wanted to prove him a false prophet (a cursed person). Jesus knew that too. That is why he prayed earnestly to avoid the cup.
Also, Pilate wanted to release Jesus and Pilate had the message from his wife that He should have nothing to do with that pious man Jesus. The wife of Pilate believed that Jesus was a pious man and a man of God. She was visited by an angel who told her that Jesus should not be killed otherwise it would be bad for her and her family. So she passed that message to her husband not to harm Jesus.
Would the husband (Governor Pilate) not listen to his wife?. Yes, he would. And Pilate did everything to save Jesus. Detail will be posted later.
When angel visits a person to save Jesus, it means God does not want Jesus to be killed. When God does not want it then nobody can kill that person. I will give another example (later) of same thing related to the life (safety) of Jesus which will prove clearly that Jesus could not be killed on the cross because God did not want it.
Jesus prayed hard in the garden. His sweat was running like blood. To avoid the humilating death on the cross. God accepted his prayer. That is clearly written in the Quran. It is also indicated in the bible too because it is written that an angel came to Jesus and that angel was strenghtening him. That means the angel was givng him hope of safety and approval (acceptance) of his prayers in the garden before arrest.
(more later)... ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 03 July 2008 at 4:10am
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The other good example of Jesus safety is in the bible (Mathew 2:13). It is said that angel appeared to Joseph the father of Jesus after Jesus birth and told Joseph that the king (Herod) is an enemy of Jesus and would kill Jesus. So you take Jesus away to Egypt.
Joseph did it. He took Jesus and Mary to Egypt and they lived there until Jesus was 12 years old. That was a God's safety plan for Jesus, i.e. to save Jesus. That was God's plan to save Jesus.
Now, a question: Can any one believe that Jesus could die in Egypt by any cause, by snake bite etc or fever etc? Surely not. That is the answer. But let every one give their opinion. My reply is that Jesus could never have died in Egypt by any means because God (Allah) did not want Jesus to die.
For the dream of Joseph and the visit of the angel please see mathew 2:13 onwards. It was the king Herod who wanted to kill Jesus.
The important question is : Could Jesus die in Egypt by any cause? Please think and reply. ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 03 July 2008 at 7:08am
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Could Jesus die in Egypt by any cause? Please think and reply.
(this isn't my personal view)
If God had a plan then He carried it out.
The question seems to be irrevelent anyway.
It seems you are trying to get to, that since God didn't have any plans for Jesus to be killed at his birth and in Egypt, then God must not have wanted Jesus to be killed at the time of the crufication. But if God had a plan for such a thing then He carried it out.
yes an angel came to Pilate's wife about leaving Jesus alone. But Pilate order it because of the crowd, as you say earlier Pilate tried all he could.
minuteman you meantioned "When God does not want it then nobody can kill that person." Well for me, if God did not want Jesus to be killed, then God had other opportunities between Pilate's order and the cross. God has the power right? Then why wasn't anything done to save him after Pilate's wife and the order? God saved Jesus when he was born and throught out egypt because Jesus had a mission to fulfill later in life, so Jesus had to have the chance to live. ------------- ~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 03 July 2008 at 7:26am
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All that is a later thought and may be discussed later. I am only presenting the initial part that God sent an angel to Joseph and told him to take Jesus to Egypt because the king Herod intended to kill Jesus.
Joseph acted on the advice. It is now a simple question to all friends to consider please. Could Jesus be killed in Egypt during his 12 years stay there by any means. That is my point now. Some suitable answer is required for that question. All are welcome. Thanks. ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 03 July 2008 at 10:12am
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I like to think he could have but he wasn't. I will repeat my answer, if you read you would have seen. Like I said If God had a plan then He carried it out. God saved Jesus when he was born and throught out egypt because Jesus had a mission to fulfill later in life, so Jesus had to have the chance to live.
------------- ~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 03 July 2008 at 6:48pm
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That is true. God always has a plan. When Joseph son of Jacob was thrown into a pit, at that time also God had a plan. ( That was to save the entire Israeli nation). But that is beside the point. I agree that God had a plan for Jesus so He would not let him die.
But we have not reached that point yet. We are just considering a simple situation. God advised Joseph to move Jesus into Egypt because the king Herod wanted to kill Jesus. So Joseph acted on the advice made known to him through the agency of an angel.
He moved with son (Jesus) and wife (Mary) to Egypt and remained there for 12 years. Now I am considering only this point whether Jesus could be killed in Egypt by any cause such as fever or animal bite etc.
My reply is no. For whatever reason, God may have had a plan for Jesus in future and for any other reason, that is yet beside the point, Jesus could not be killed in Egypt because if he did then the will of Allah will not be fulfilled (of keeping Jesus alive). Thanks for your posts. ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 04 July 2008 at 1:22am
NO!
The Jew had to have Roman permission to murder Jesus, the Romans washed their hands of Him.
Matthew 27:24-26 = [Added for meaning] Seeing that it did no good but, rather, an uproar was arising, Pilate took water and washed his hands before the crowd, saying: "I am innocent of the blood of this [man]. YOU yourselves [THE JEWS] must see to it. " 25 At that all the people said in answer: "His blood come upon us and upon our children." 26 Then he released Bar�ab�bas to them, but he had Jesus whipped and handed him over to [THE JEWS] be impaled.
He. the Roman representative, Pilate, gave them permision to murder Jesus.
So the Jews are responsilbe for the death of Jesus not the Romans! |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 04 July 2008 at 10:21am
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That is right. But the problem is why the Jews were shouting and asking for Jesus to be crucified. The charge was blasphemy. The punishment for blasphemy in Jewish law was stoning to death. But they were interested in having Jesus killed on the cross. That point has good meaning and should be noted. It is true, Pilate did not want to punish Jesus. He did everything possible to avoid any serious punishment to Jesus. One proof has been provided by robin above. It is a funny thing (question) as to who killed Jesus? Different people are giving different answers. The Jews say that they killed Jesus (as mentioned in the Quran too). Some say that the Romans killed Jesus (as it is described in an earkier post). I have known the R. Caholics saying that the Romans did not kill Jesus but that we (The christians) killed Jesus. There seems to be some truth in that because the last Pope (John paul II?) had openly absolved the Jews for the death of Jesus.He said that Jews were not guilty of killing Jesus. That was good for the Jews. But robin does not seem to agree to that. The best of all is the claim of the Quran that Jesus did not die on the cross. He was saved miraculously from the cursed death on the cross (which he wanted to avoid). So there is no need to find out about who killed Jesus. ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 04 July 2008 at 12:32pm
You missed these:-
Deuteronomy 21:22-23 THE LAW
"And in case there comes to be in a man a sin deserving the sentence of death, and he has been put to death, and you have hung him upon a stake, 23 his dead body should not stay all night on the stake; but you should by all means bury him on that day, because something accursed of God is the one hung up; and you must not defile your soil, which Jehovah your God is giving you as an inheritance.
Joshua 8:29
And he hanged the king of A�i upon a stake until the evening time; and as the sun was about to set Joshua gave the command, and then they took his dead body down from the stake and pitched it at the entrance of the gate of the city and raised up a great pile of stones over him, down to this day.
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Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 27 July 2008 at 6:46pm
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Thanks robin, That proves the death on the cross is a cursed death which was planned by the Jews for Jesus. They carried it out as much as they could. But what if Jesus was alive when he came down from the cross? He had fainted and looked a dead man. Every one believed that he was dead. Out of respect they did not break his legs. (Out of respect? Yes, even the non Jew centurian was saying 'surely he was a man of God').
They did not bury in underground. Just laid Jesus in a room like tomb. Since he was not dead, he came to senses and after some time, he walked away on his own legs with the same old body and same old wounds.
It is necessary to find out how did Jesus die. Or, did he die on the cross at all? ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 27 July 2008 at 10:05pm
I would make faith and belief in God & Jesus a total waist of time and one might as well become a athiest!
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Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 29 July 2008 at 2:25am
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robin, you are from Jw or YW. You need two miracles. First one that Jesus must die on the cross for the salvation of mankind. Then he should come to life. Then he should walk about and then go to the father (God) in heaven.
Then when he will sit on the right side of God, it means he is still there a separate entity from the Great God. Where did his body go when Jesus ascended to heavens?
There are so many problems. It is difficult to ask the answers from Believer or robin. robin has different theories. ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 06 August 2008 at 6:28pm
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 06 August 2008 at 6:30pm
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GOD's Word - Jesus is on His right side. GOD stands by His WORD and His WORD stands by Him.
------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 07 August 2008 at 2:49am
God must have demateralised his body as it had been sacreficed & raised Jesus as a spirit to evertual go back to heaven to be at God's right hand.
For 40 days Jesus materlised a body for his follower to see then dematerlasing when finished (to go back to heaven) using his God given powers to do so.
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Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 07 August 2008 at 4:40pm
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Speculation ! Surmising ! Your own Good wishes? YW theory? ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 08 August 2008 at 12:25am
What do you think some of your comments are, fact?
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Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 10 August 2008 at 7:36pm
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robin, Please look at your own wording:
God must have demateralised his body as it had been sacreficed
Are you speculating and hoping or not? Please see it. ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 11 August 2008 at 6:00am
Logical conclusion, based on scripture, as God did like he did with Moses body he did with the body of Jesus:-
Deuteronomy 34:5-6
After that Moses the servant of Jehovah died there in the land of Mo�ab at the order of Jehovah. 6 And he [Jehovah] proceeded to bury him in the valley in the land of Mo�ab in front of Beth-pe�or, and nobody has come to know his grave down to this day. |
Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 11 August 2008 at 7:55am
What you believe in could perhaps be a total waste of time.
One does not need to become an atheist, that is a silly notion, robin!
I myself may not believe as you but I do believe in Jesus and God, separate entities thou, And if Jesus was alive when he came down then that is of no difference to my beliefs. But then again I am not believing that the cruxification and resurrection is the main points in belief for salvation.
------------- ~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 15 August 2008 at 12:55am
Jesus died for the final establishment of the true faith in God!
If what muslims think about Jesus was true then faith would be of no use as there is No Medator for the New Covernant, No Salvation, No Kingdom, and No Hope for mankind, thus no point in belief!
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Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 15 August 2008 at 9:39pm
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Jesus died for the final establishment of the true faith in God!
If what muslims think about Jesus was true then faith would be of no use as there is No Medator for the New Covernant, No Salvation, No Kingdom, and No Hope for mankind, thus no point in belief!
robin, your post has no logic, no intellect, no rationality. It is just a forceful assumption. You being a JW have different beliefs from the mainline christians.
You half believe that Jesus is God.
You half believe in Trinity.
But you believe in the original sin.
You believe that Jesus (a god ) died on the cross.
You believe inJesus death for the atonement of sins of others.
You believe that an innocent man Jesus was killed on the cross for the sins of others.
Now here you are establising a true faith through the death of Jesus on the cross. We Muslims (and the Jews) consider the death on the cross as a cursed (La'anat) death. We do not believe that Jesus was a cursed person. He did not die on the cross. He was alive when brought down from the cross.
Remember that the real curse is from God. The curse or abuse of mankind has no value. A cursed person (curse of God) is far from the blessings of God. Jesus is not that type of person.
There is no need to kill Jesus on the cross in order to establish any new covenant. Never had it been done before too. The human sacrifce is forbidden since the trial of Abraham and Ishmael a.s. Ishmael was spared by Allah for a later sacrifice in lieu which was to be presented in the way of Allah by the Companions of the holy prophet in large numbers, in the way of truth.
So the last covenant was established for mankind through the prophet Muhammad by the brave actions and blood of the companions of the prophet to eradicate evil from the society and to free mankind from the shackles of religious slavery. ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 16 August 2008 at 10:23am
The Bible says:-
1 Timothy 2:3-7
This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God, 4 whose will is that all sorts of men should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a corresponding ransom* for all�[this is] what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times. 7 For the purpose of this witness I was appointed a preacher and an apostle�I am telling the truth, I am not lying�a teacher of nations in the matter of faith and truth.
*"Corresponding" to the wicked sinner Adam!
Logic has nothing to do with this, but what God will is and what he says means everthing! That you do not understand as yet!
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Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 17 August 2008 at 12:00am
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Timothy was a greater sinner by accusing the father of mankind. i.e. Adam. Timothy is niether a prophet nor a man of god. From where did he become an apostle? Was he one of the original 12 whom Jesus predicted to have them seated on 12 thrones?. But one of them, a Judas, reported Jesus to the enemy and got him arrested. Where went his throne?
Simply speaking,the christians are raising the ranks of persons above what they are. The Jews had been lowering the ranks below what were the ranks of men of God. The christians did the opposite.
They raised the rank of a simple man of God and made him into a god. (Perhaps robin does not believe that). Then the christians raised the ranks of simple men who were companions of Jesus to that of messengers of Allah. They were at the most the messengers of Jesus while Jessu was a messenger of Allah. The apostles were not any lords at all. But those companions were made as messengers as if of God.
Quran forbids taking any one as a Lord beside Allah.
The fault of the Jews is that they abuse and lower the rank and kill the prophets.That is why they are the "Maghdhoob". The fault of the christians is that they unduely raise the rank of the prophet and other men to the point of worship. That is why they are called "Dhaaleen". i.e. those who after having the right guidance, lost it and went astray.
I would not listen to any Timothy. There is no doubt that the incident of crucifixion of Jesus was nothing less than death. He was almost dead. he suffered much and appeared to be dead.
So, if the christians, as they always use symbolic language,if christians say that Jesus died on the cross, I am ready to believe it because he was almost dead. But the Quran says that he was not really killed on the cross. He just appeared to them all as a dead man. And none of his friends could say at that time, in front of the soldiers that Jesus was not dead. That would have been extremely dangerous. ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 17 August 2008 at 12:37am
You deny the word of Allah as Allah says:- Ezekiel 18:4
Look! All the souls�to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son�to me they belong. The soul that is sinning�it itself will die. Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that is sinning�it itself will die. . .
According to Allah all sinners die as in the above quote from his word!
Adam is now dead so he was a sinner and the 2nd one to do so, the first was his wife Eve who also was wicked like Adam and eat the fruit that Allah told them not to eat:-
Genesis 2:15-17
And Jehovah God proceeded to take the man and settle him in the garden of E�den to cultivate it and to take care of it. 16 And Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: "From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die."
Adam and Eve where Wicked and Evil as they obeyed Satan the Devil insted of Allah:-
Genesis 3:1-7
Now the serpent [Devil] proved to be the most cautious of all the wild beasts of the field that Jehovah God had made. So it began to say to the woman: "Is it really so that God said YOU must not eat from every tree of the garden?"
2 At this the woman said to the serpent: "Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat.
3 But as for [eating] of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, God has said, �YOU must not eat from it, no, YOU must not touch it that YOU do not die.�"
4 At this the serpent said to the woman: "YOU positively will not die.
5 For God knows that in the very day of YOUR eating from it YOUR eyes are bound to be opened and YOU are bound to be like God, KNOWING good and bad."
6 Consequently the woman saw that the tree was good for food and that it was something to be longed for to the eyes, yes, the tree was desirable to look upon. So she began taking of its fruit and eating it. Afterward she gave some also to her husband when with her and he began eating it.
7 Then the eyes of both of them became opened and they began to realize that they were naked. Hence they sewed fig leaves together and made loin coverings for themselves.
Allah punnished Adam And Eve:-
Genesis 3:8-13
Later they heard the voice of Jehovah God walking in the garden about the breezy part of the day, and the man and his wife went into hiding from the face of Jehovah God in between the trees of the garden. 9 And Jehovah God kept calling to the man and saying to him: "Where are you?" 10 Finally he said: "Your voice I heard in the garden, but I was afraid because I was naked and so I hid myself." 11 At that he said: "Who told you that you were naked? From the tree from which I commanded you not to eat have you eaten?" 12 And the man went on to say: "The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me [fruit] from the tree and so I ate." 13 With that Jehovah God said to the woman: "What is this you have done?" To this the woman replied: "The serpent�it deceived me and so I ate."
Allah tells them for thier wicked act they will suffer and die:- Genesis 3:17-19
And to Adam he said: "Because you listened to your wife�s voice and took to eating from the tree concerning which I gave you this command, �You must not eat from it,� cursed is the ground on your account. In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life. 18 And thorns and thistles it will grow for you, and you must eat the vegetation of the field. 19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return."
Listion the The Bible and find out the real truth! |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 17 August 2008 at 7:04am
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LOL!! Mminuteman remember the soldier stabbed Jesus to make sure He was dead. It was not up to Jesus' fathers to say whether Jesus was dead or not.
1 Timothy is a letter, Epistle written by Paul to Timothy while Timothy was at Epheus. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 25 August 2008 at 4:54pm
Robin,
you are using an out dated source that cannot be trusted. It contradicts itself, thus its not God's word nomore. And its not wise to rely on its contents. God's word has been altered and corrupted in the form of the Bible. I have shown you several examples of that, reading and quoting it more and more does not change that fact. Konwingly to rely on it be equal to bluffing one's own self. And will lead the person into the wrong direction, the direction of loss, eternal loss.
God punishes for our delibrate traspasses, God forgives the one who repents and correct their path, while that person still have the chance, before the deat takes away that chance!
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 02 September 2008 at 5:10am
Adam and Eve, like the Devil were perfect to start with, so when he and they disobeyed God it was a deliberate act (they did not make a mistake) of a Godless and loveless human along with his wife Eve. So just like the Devil whom God will totally destroy, they are now totally destroyed in everlasting death never to live again! As Genesis shows they where only worthy of death as they did as the Devil said. As you choose not to believe it does not change the facts! |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 02 September 2008 at 5:18pm
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Interesting robin. Please tell me what was the sin of devil. What did he do wrong? And it was interesting reading about God calling Adam, "Where are you?" Of course, that is only possible if God did not know where Adam was.
robin, you are stressing upon the sin of Adam. I am interested in finding about the sin of the devil. Reply by the words of the bible please. ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: Nazarene
Date Posted: 12 September 2008 at 3:25am
The Roman Trial Before Pilate 1. THEN led they Yeshua from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment, to Pontius Pilate, the Governor, and it was early, and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might keep the feast. 2. Pilate therefore went out unto them and said, What accusation bring ye against this man? They answered and said unto him, If he were not a malefactor, we would not have delivered him up unto thee. We have a law and by our law he ought to die, because he would change the customs and rites which Moses delivered unto us, yea, he made himself the Son of God. 3. Then said Pilate unto them, Take ye him, and Judge him according to your law. For he knew that for envy they had delivered him. 4. The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death. So the saying of Yeshua was fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die .
5. And they further accused him saying, We found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding to give tribute to Caesar, saying that he himself is Christ a King. 6. Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again and called Yeshua and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews? Yeshua answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me? 7. Pilate answered, Am I a Jew ? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me; what hast thou done? Yeshua answered, My kingdom is not of this world, if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now is my kingdom not from hence. 8. Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a King then? Yeshua answered, Thou sayest that I am, yea, a King I am. To this end was I born and for this cause came I unto the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice. 9. Pilate said unto him, What is truth? Yeshua said, Truth is from heaven. Pilate said, Then truth is not on earth. Yeshua said unto Pilate, Believe thou, that truth is on earth amongst those who receive and obey it. They are of the truth who judge righteously. 10. And when he had heard this, he went out again unto the Jews and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all. And when he was accused of the chief priests and elders he answered them nothing. 11. Then said Pilate unto him, Hearest thou not, how many things they witness against thee? 12. And he answered him never a word, insomuch that the governor marvelled greatly, and again he said unto them, I find no fault in this man. 13. And they waxed the more fierce saying, He stirreth up the people, teaching throughout all Jewry, beginning from Galilee to this place. When Pilate heard of Galilee he asked, whether the man were a Galilean. 14. AND as soon as he knew that he belonged unto Herod�s jurisdiction, he sent him to Herod, who himself also, was at Jerusalem at the time. 15. And when Herod saw Yeshua he was exceedingly glad, for he was desirous to see him of a long season, because he had heard many things of him, and he hoped to have seen some miracle done by him. 16. Then he questioned with him in many words, but he answered him nothing. And the chief priests and scribes stood and vehemently accused him, and many false witnesses rose up against him, and laid to his charge things that he knew not. 17. And Herod with his men of war set him at nought, and mocked him, and arrayed him in a gorgeous robe and sent him again to Pilate. And the same day Pilate and Herod were made friends together, for before they were at enmity between themselves. 18. And Pilate went again into the Judgment Hall and saith unto Yeshua, Whence art thou? But Yeshua gave him no answer. Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee? 19. Yeshua answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above, therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin. 20. And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him; but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go thou art no Caesar�s friend, whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar. 21. And Pilate called together the chief priests and rulers of the people. When he was set down on the judgement seat his wife sent unto him, saying. Have thou nothing to do with that just man, for I have suffered many things this day in a dream, because of him. 22. And Pilate said unto them, Ye have brought this man unto me, as one that perverteth the people, and behold I have examined him before you, and have found no fault in this man touching those things: whereof ye accuse him. No, nor yet Herod, for I sent you to him, and lo nothing worthy of death was found in him. 23. But ye have a custom that I should release unto you one at the Passover, will ye therefore that I release unto you the King of the Jews? 24. Then cried they all again, saying, Not this man, but Barabbas. Now Barabbas was a robber. And, for sedition made in the city, and for murder, was cast into prison. 25. Pilate therefore, willing to release Yeshua, spake again to them. Whether of the twain will ye that I release unto you; Yeshua Barabbas, or Yeshua which is called the Christ? They said, Barabbas 26. Pilate said unto them, What then shall I do with Yeshua which is called the Christ? They all say unto him, Let him be crucified. 27. And the Governor said, Why what evil hath he done? But they cried out all the more saying, Crucify him, crucify him. 28. Pilate therefore went forth again and said unto him, Behold, again, I bring him forth to you, that ye may know that I find no fault in him, and again they cried out, Crucify him, crucify him. 29. And Pilate said unto them, the third time, Why, what evil hath he done? I have found no cause of death in him: I will therefore chastise him, and let him go. 30. And they were instant with loud voices, requiring that he might be crucified. And the voices of them and of the chief priests prevailed. 31. When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it. 32. Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us and on our children. And Pilate gave sentence that it should be as they required. And he delivered Yeshua to their will. ------------- love for all conquers all |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 13 September 2008 at 12:34am
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That is a very good description of events of Crucifixion, briefly by robin and greater detail by Nazarene. It will also prove that Jesus did not die on the Cross and it is a miracle of the Quran that saves Jesus from any ignoble (cursed) death on the Cross.
The narration of Nazarene is very good. It is enough to prove the truth of the Quran that they could not kill Jesus on the cross (Crucify) and they could not kill him in any other way. But it was made to appear as such to them (as if he was a dead man).
Because Jesus did not die on the cross so we have to set aside the question "How did Jesus die?" or "Who killed Jesus?" But whatever happened to Jesus, the extreme pain and suffering on the cross, it is certain that jews are responsible for that. Not the Romans.
The Jews took upon themselves the responsibility of the blood of Jesus. So there is no need to blame any one else. It was the Jews in trouble due to the preachings of Jesus. They had been trapped in their sinful life. They wanted to get rid of Jesus and not the Romans.
Another important thing has come to light by the taking of Jesus to Herod and herod not doing anything against Jesus. But will explain later. ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 14 September 2008 at 5:38am
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http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=60406&FID=7 - Nazarene Are you an Essene following the Gospel of the Holy Twelve?
http://reluctant-messenger.com/essene/gospel_7.htm#Lection660 - http://reluctant-messenger.com/essene/gospel_7.htm#Lection660
------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 16 September 2008 at 11:24pm
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robin has not replied to my question about the sin of the devil (Satan).
The topic is "How did Jesus die"
Joseph who took the body of Jesus into custody was a nazarene, white robed people (society). He was a member of that Society and so was Jesus. That Joseph was a very influential person and a secret friend of Jesus. He could not do anything openly but tried his best to save Jesus. In collusion with Pilate, he saved Jesus.
He took the body of Jesus into custody and did not let any enemy to come near the body (living body). He took Jesus into his tomb (room like place with a window) and he had a physician (I forget the name) to attend with lot of medicines, special ointments to be applied to the wounds.
Every one knows that nobody applies ointments to a dead body. That fellow, Joseph of Armethea was an Essene or Nazarene and he played great part in saving Jesus. When Joseph went to Pilate to take orders for the body, Pilate said, "Has he died so quickly?" Pilate could not imagine that Jesus could die in such a short time.
Also, the word crucify in Arabic is "Salabu". That has a meaning pointing to the bones that the fat from the bones is melted, wasted. And it has the meaning to break the bones. But the bones of Jesus were not broken. So he was not crucified. (The act of crucifixion was not completed.) ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: H3OO
Date Posted: 30 September 2008 at 8:23am
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Sign Reader and seekshidayth and others interested Plz read all of these 2 posts bcz im trying to make sense from the the following explanation and it will definitely reach the conclusion that jesus died a natural death and wasnt raised. I was studying a very interesting argument of a Ahmedi khalifa Hazrat Mirza Bashir Ahmad in which he says that this world is Governed by two laws: Law Of Shariah and Law of Nature. The law of shariah pertains to the moral and spiritual condition of man and is brought to the world by Prophets and Messengers. Law of Nature is responsible for the working of the universe and follows the system of cause and effect and the properties of different objects, whose effects we observe all around us. like if a roof becomes weak to a certain degree, it is natural that it will collapse. it is also natural that a person standing under it will die or seriously get injured. The law of nature know no friends or foes. Anything which comes within their sphere of action will be affected one way or the other. (There are, of course, exceptions, which transpire under a separate law in the form of miracles and answered prayers and pertain to God�s special decree.) If a blast happens their will be destruction, its natural and anyone in its vicinity will get hurt. No matter how much good he is, true he is, he will die bcz he didnt die under the law of shariah, he died under the law of nature. as both these laws dont interfere with each other. and even God doesnt interfere in his law of nature. God do not break his own rules and act against ones logic bcz he is powerful, wise, all knowing that he without breaking his own rules can still have his own way, carryout his plans, make millions of way out while remaining within his laws. Thats what his mastery is that he carries out his plan in such a way that neither the law of nature is interfered and neither it appeals illogical to us otherwise we're objecting his power , ability that God had to break his own rule to carry a particular task and so limiting his power. My friend told me that some of his relatives lived in kashmir and when the tremor hit kashmir in 2005, the whole house came down where they lived and all of them died except for his 7 yr old cousin. They all died bcz it is natural (law of nature) that when a concrete house collapses, 99% chances are that people inside will die but the reason for the boy surviving was that to his luck he was standing below the stairs at that time and we know that the stairs go upwards at a 45 degree angle and so when the stairs fell, it still created that angle from the ground which gave the boy a safe space and he came out unhurt. so u see his life was written and God had to save him but he didnt interfere in the law of nature to save him as the house did collapse. and it definitely appeals to our very own logic. God didnt do anything against our logic to save that boy neither did he break his own law of nature. It wasnt like God made the roof hang in mid air to save someone but made such a way out for the boy that it completely agrees to logic. I was watching on a Tv where a person tells that he was having iftar at the Marriott hotel 20 minutes before the blast and was also to have dinner there but his mother called him that she is not feeling well so plz come home and he left. Do u see a sign here how again God made a way out without interfering in his own law bcz the law still carried out its work in the form of destruction that happened bcz of blast but still saved those that he wanted too. and there are millions of such incidents. The main point to explain this is to just show how powerful is and everything is so easy for him that he can easily get his work/plan carried out without interfering in any law or using his super powers. But when it comes to jesus, we muslims are trying to prove that God had to go against his laws, had to rely on his super power to save jesus. WE are trying to say that God became so helpless, so short of ideas, had no other way out in front of these tiny creatures that he had to break his own law and be dependent on his ultimate power to save jesus by raising him to the skies. Do u really believe that to defeat these humans, God had to rely on that power and had no other way. Any one can answer that? We can make millions of plans but God can demolish all of them in such a way that neither they appear illogical nor against the rules of this world. There is a very important event that took place in the history of islam related to prophet[sa] where God saved his prophet[sa] without any effort or use of his super powers or going against human logic cont..... |
Posted By: H3OO
Date Posted: 30 September 2008 at 8:32am
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continued We do know that when Hazrat Muhammed [pbuh]was Migrating from Makkah to Medina, some Makkans Followed him to take his life. If im not wrong, he took refuge in some mosques during migration and (copy and paste from a website} the the assassins were lying in wait for the planned strike, they, on several occasions, looked slyly at the bed, and were assured by the blanket of the Holy Prophet that he was sleeping inside it. They did not realise that it was Ali under the blanket, whilst the Holy Prophet opened the door and walked away unnoticed (bcz while waiting the makkans went into deep sleep). As planned, the assassins, naked swords in their hands, broke in and removed the blanket from the sleeper's face. They were surprised to find Ali there instead of the Holy Prophet. They viewed his composure and steady expression of resolute courage, and having failed to obtain any information about the whereabouts of the Holy Prophet, disappointed, they stepped out one by one. The Holy Prophet had asked his companions not to leave their homes on the night of the migration, but he found Abu Bakr following him on his way to Madina. However, he allowed him to accompany him and they took refuge in a cave, because after finding Ali in the bed, the conspirators at once started the quest for the Holy Prophet. By Allah's will, a spider wove a web across the mouth of the cave, and in front of it a pigeon laid her eggs. Seeing this, the pursuers presumed that no one had entered the cave for a long time and did not search it. So just Look at these events from islamic history and one wonders God could've done the same here as well as he did to jesus that is to raise him to the skies to save him but the fact is he is powerful and undefeatable and he knows how to save his people without breaking his rules. He is not helpless or weak in front us that he has to rely on them to defeat us. and how easily above he saved prophet[sa] and they[killers] had no clue. Now we go to the Quranic verses 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- 4:158 Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise; It is clear that it says that they neither killed him nor crucified him but by no way mentions that he was physically raised to the skies. When he was not killed neither crucified by them, then there are only 2 options left, one is natural death and second is, raised to the skies but in my prev post i have discussed that in detail as how that might not be possible (plz read my prev post) and also Just look the sentence " it was made to appear to them". This does gives us a hint that he was physically present there and it appeared to them as if he were dead (it was made to appear to them that..) . if he[as] were physically raised into the skies, then how come it was made to appear to them that he was dead, it can only be possible if he were physically present in front of them and appeared to be dead in front them as they could physically see him and thought he was dead but he couldve been in comma. can u answer that (S*R, or seekshidayath) The second verse so could very well mean spiritually that is natural death. specially in the light of the above stated explanation. and as God states at the end of verse that he is powerful and wise and that is evident from the fact how he made a fool of these people [who are to this day still in a delusion that they crucified him] and saved jesus from their clutches while not breaking any of his rule or relying on his super powers. He will always create ways within the rules of this world that he set himself. bcz he is powerful and wise. Now i have discussed quran, islamic events and logic/common sense and it does leads to the point that jesus died a natural death. |
Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 01 October 2008 at 12:30am
The second coming of Isa (a.s) has been mentioned in hadith and the verse following 4:158 is an allusion to that.
Whose death is this verse mentioning, Isa (a.s) or the people of the book? Isa (a.s) certainly. As the verse goes; everyone of the people of the book have to believe in Isa (a.s) before Isa's (a.s) death. (Hadith mentioning the abolishment of Jizyah by Isa (a.s) is supported by this verse 4:159). Therefore its evident from the Quran that Isa (a.s) is to come again.
Now we all know that once a person is dead, thats the end of his/her life until the resurrection before judgement day. If we're to assume that Isa (a.s) had to face death, to be raised by Allah; then Allah has to break His rule to resurrect Isa (a.s) for the second coming (and that we all know is not the quality of Almighty Allah).
The basis for claiming that Isa (a.s) has died is the word "mutawaffeeka" in 3:55. "Tawaffa" means "to take the soul" and Allah takes our souls during our sleep or in death and to know the meaning of "tawaffa" in a verse, the action following the word should be considered. In 3:55 there's no mention of death and hence "mutawaffeka" should be interpretated as -"to take the soul (in a state of sleep). And Allah knows best.
------------- 'Trust everyone but not the devil in them' |
Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 01 October 2008 at 2:20am
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Continuation:
Lets analyse 4:157-158.
4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
As this verse shows, Isa (a.s) was not killed nor crucified. Some may argue that he was put on the cross but survived the crucifixion. If "crucifixion" means 'death on the cross', what do we call the act of impaling on the cross? Just impaling on the cross is also crucifixion whether death is caused or not. Hence its clear from this verse that Isa (a.s) was not tortured, dragged through the streets and put on the cross to die. The people could not harm him in any way as another verse proves.
Therefore " it was made to appear to them" should mean that whatever happened at that time, Isa (a.s) was not harmed in anyway by the Jews but they thought that they got rid of him as Allah made it appear to them so......and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
4:158 Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;
Also see :
005.117 : "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things. Allah took up Muhammad (sal) for the Mi'raj from the same Jerusalem Isa (a.s) was taken up. Allah did not have to cause Rasulullah to die for the Mi'raj.
------------- 'Trust everyone but not the devil in them' |
Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 01 October 2008 at 2:37am
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WE are trying to say that God became so helpless, so short of ideas, had no other way out in front of these tiny creatures that he had to break his own law and be dependent on his ultimate power to save jesus by raising him to the skies. Do u really believe that to defeat these humans, God had to rely on that power and had no other way. Any one can answer that? For the record, there's no such thing as the use of the ultimate power or superpowers by Allah to get things done. Everything's easy for him; 'Be and it is'. ------------- 'Trust everyone but not the devil in them' |
Posted By: H3OO
Date Posted: 01 October 2008 at 6:07am
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to saladin And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.' and Hence its clear from this verse that Isa (a.s) was not tortured, dragged through the streets and put on the cross to die. The people could not harm him in any way as another verse proves. He[as] might have been put on the cross but was not killed or crucified and both verses do not say that he was not put on cross. [violence] is in brackets and hence not the word in quran. The verse restrain children of Israel from u could very well mean that they could not kill or crucify him. 003.055 : Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself ALLAH SAID O JESUS i WILL CAUSE Thee to die (mutawaffi derived from Tawaffa and u explained it means taking away the soul whether in sleep or death) and will raise thee to my self.... Just look at the order, 1st Allah will cause him to die and then raise him. plz read my next post relating to mutawaffi and i will present there something from quran which may clear the meaning of mutawaffi (what does it means here; whether take away soul in sleep or in death) there is no where mentioned in quran that he was physically taken to the skies/heavens. " it was made to appear to them" I guess my point is pretty clear with respect to this. How was it made to appear to them? if Jesus was present in front of them physically, only then it would appear to them that he was dead as they could physically see him. They though he died but he might have been in comma and thats how Allah made to appear to them that..., perfectly within the rules of the world. For the record, there's no such thing as the use of the ultimate power or superpowers by Allah to get things done. Everything's easy for him; 'Be and it is'. by the super powers i mean the powers that God never uses in deciding worldly matters. If god wants, he can help a poor by throwing from the sky some gold into his house but that is against logic and his law. If he will never do it (though he can) but might help that poor guy through some worldly means (within the law of this world) like that poor might win a prize bond. u see in the 1st case it is his special power, unnatural is a better word to describe it but second one is natural, in connection with our logic, within the rules of the world, consistent with patterns of this world. God will use his unnatural power only when he can not find a solution within the rules of this world, without breaking his own laws but we know that it is not possible as God has got all the solutions as he is powerfully and all knowing so that is what my point was that i explained with a lengthy post on page 6 that he is powerful and everything is so easy that he must have created some worldly mean to save jesus and not had to break any of his own rule [otherwise it could very well mean that God was trapped[nauzubillah] and he had to use his that super power/break his rule to rescue jesus] just as he saved prophet[sa] without intervening in his own laws. Jesus was not the only prophet that people tried to kill but God saved them all without raising them to the skies and even when Jesus was born, we know how God saved him perfectly within his rules. cont.. |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 01 October 2008 at 6:22am
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 01 October 2008 at 6:23am
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it was made to appear to them = a physical death and not death of Jesus' soul ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: H3OO
Date Posted: 01 October 2008 at 6:35am
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comtinued The second coming of Isa (a.s) has been mentioned in hadith yes, second coming of jesus is mentioned but it is no where mentioned that he will be the same Hazrat ISA[as], the son of Mary. Infact it is the imam mehdi (Promised Messiah) who has been called the second coming of Hazrat Isa[as] or ibn maryam but no where is mentioned that it will the same Hazrat Isa[as]. It could very well mean metaphorically. Hazrat Isa[as] had died and he will not come again but someone of similar characteristics might appear. So the imam mehdi who has been called ibn maryam doesnt necessarily mean that it is the same hazrat isa [as] having similar physical body but someone having characteristics of Ibn maryam/Hazrat Isa[as]. Roger federer is a God, many says this. This doesnt mean he is in actual a God but just means that he is a very great and undefeatable player. Now we all know that once a person is dead, thats the end of his/her life until the resurrection before judgement day. If we're to assume that Isa (a.s) had to face death, to be raised by Allah; then Allah has to break His rule to resurrect Isa (a.s) for the second coming now i hope, by explanation, The rules Of Allah will not be broken.and it perfectly makes sense. and am still studying that verse 4.159 u gave and as soon i get the answer and the understanding, i'll post it here cont.... |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 01 October 2008 at 6:43am
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The second coming of Isa Ibne Maryam. Exact translation of the hadith from Muslim and Bukhari, both:
The prophet, speaking to the Companions, said, " By Allah in whose hand is my life. surely Ibne Maryam will land amongst you as a just judge. He will break the cross and will kill the swine......."
It is open to interpretation. Let us see what the friends understand from this Hadith, the breaking of the cross and killing of swine etc. ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: H3OO
Date Posted: 01 October 2008 at 10:30am
|
continued Mutawaffi is derived from Tawaffa and u explained; it means taking away the soul whether in sleep or death. Now in quran this word is used in no less than 25 different places and in no less than 23 of them the meaning is to take away the soul at the time death. in the other 2 places in quran where meaning is to take away the soul at the time of sleep, night or sleep is mentioned in those verses. [6:60]And he it is Who takes your souls by night and knows what you do by day, then he raises you up again therein, that the appointed term may be completed. Then to him is your return........ (39:42)Allah takes away the souls of men at the time of their death and of those also that are not yet dead, during their sleep. And then He withholds those against which he has decreed death, and sends back the others till an appointed term..... Now it is mentioned here clearly that he sends back the others(which are taken away during sleep) till the appointed term. but now if we go back and see all those verses where allah says that he raised him[as] to himself, no where he has mentioned that he will send him back. which then could mean that he was taken up after he died natural death. If it was during sleep, then sleep should also have been mentioned and clearly should've been stated that he will be sent back just like in above verse. "I said nothing to them except that which Thou didst command me-- `Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord' and I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them, but since Thou didst cause me to die (, Thou hast been the Watcher over them, and Thou art Witness over all things." (5:117) (Hadith) Imam Bukhari has named a Bab (Chapter)--Babo Tawaffiyo Rasool-ullahi Sallallaho Alaihi Wa Sallam, in which the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of God be on him) has connoted the meaning of Hazrat Jesus'AS Tawaffee as that of his own Tawaffee. The Holy ProphetSAW said: "On the day of Qiyamat some people of my Ummat would be taken towards Hell. Then I shall say, `O my Lord! these are my companions', Then it would be said! `thou don't know what they innovated after thee'. Then, I shall say as the righteous servant said: `I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them, but since Thou didst cause me to die(Mutawaffi), Thou hast been the Watcher over them.'" (Bukhari Kitabul Tafseer, Vol. 3, p. 79, Vol. II, p. 159) Plz 1st confirm this hadith urself also [ref is given]. |
Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 03 October 2008 at 9:38am
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He[as] might have been put on the cross but was not killed or crucified and both verses do not say that he was not put on cross. [violence] is in brackets and hence not the word in quran. The verse restrain children of Israel from u could very well mean that they could not kill or crucify him. What would you call the act of impaling him on the cross to die? As you claim he was put on the cross to die (crucified) but he survived and hence it ceased to be crucifixion? Ok, going by your interpretation that only being killed on the cross is crucifixion, i'll try to translate that part of 4:157-
....they killed him not nor killed him on the cross,...
Alrite, what other way Isa (a.s) was supposed to have been killed besides crucifixion?
....I did restrain the Children of Israel from thee.....means that he was protected by Allah from being harmed by the Children of Israel. ------------- 'Trust everyone but not the devil in them' |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 03 October 2008 at 9:52am
That ( in red in bold) seems to be the correct translation and meaning.
------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: H3OO
Date Posted: 03 October 2008 at 12:27pm
|
Alrite, what other way Isa (a.s) was supposed to have been killed besides crucifixion? its pretty clear that God says he was not crucified to make it clear that he did not die on the cross but he also mentions that they did not kill him to further clarify that after surviving the crucification, he was not killed by any other means bcz if God only mentioned crucification, then im sure, many would argue here that ok, jesus was not crucified but he might have been killed by some other way after surviving crucification {see believers post in red below}, so God also made that clear by stating that he was not killed. I hope it makes my point clear if that is what u wanted to ask. so its pretty logical that it must mean restrain the children of Israel from killing or crucifying jesus until it is clearly stated other wise. and saladin, just look at believers statement below where he says that The soldiers stabbed Jesus to make sure He was dead. so to clarify such misconceptions God specially mentioned that he was also not killed [after surviving crucification]. I guess that further makes my point clearer and valid. |
Posted By: H3OO
Date Posted: 03 October 2008 at 12:49pm
Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 04 October 2008 at 2:42am
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The only way Jesus was supposed to have been killed was by crucifixion. Then why did Allah say (wamaa qataloohu wamaa salaboohu) 'they did not kill him nor crucify him' instead of only saying 'they did not crucify him' (to death- as you interpret)? What was the other way Jesus was known to supposedly have been killed?
What is it called, when a person sentenced to death by crucifixion is impaled on the cross but still survives? ------------- 'Trust everyone but not the devil in them' |
Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 04 October 2008 at 3:00am
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yes, second coming of jesus is mentioned but it is no where mentioned that he will be the same Hazrat ISA[as], the son of Mary. Infact it is the imam mehdi (Promised Messiah) who has been called the second coming of Hazrat Isa[as] or ibn maryam but no where is mentioned that it will the same Hazrat Isa[as]. The Quranic verse 4:159 is an implication of the second coming of the Messiah Isa ibn Maryam, the same Messiah mentioned in 4:157-158. ------------- 'Trust everyone but not the devil in them' |
Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 04 October 2008 at 3:09am
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Mutawaffi is derived from Tawaffa and u explained; it means taking away the soul whether in sleep or death. Now in quran this word is used in no less than 25 different places and in no less than 23 of them the meaning is to take away the soul at the time death. Please give me the numbers of the 23 verses, for my reference. ------------- 'Trust everyone but not the devil in them' |
Posted By: H3OO
Date Posted: 04 October 2008 at 6:32am
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References from quran where meaning of Tawaffa is taken as Death. 3/193 ...AAannasayyi-atina watawaffana maAAa al-abrari .... Forgive us our sins, blot out from us our iniquities, and take to Thyself our souls in the company of the righteous. 4/15 ...albuyooti hattayatawaffahunna almawtu aw yajAAala Allahu lahunnasabeelan ...confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way 4/97 Inna allatheena tawaffahumualmala-ikatu thalimee.... When angels take the souls of those who die in sin against their souls, .... 5/117 ..falammatawaffaytanee kunta anta alrraqeeba AAalayhim ... ..but when Thou didst cause me to die, Thou wert the watcher over them.. 2/234 Waallatheena yutawaffawnaminkum wayatharoona azwajan yatarabbasnabi-anfusihinna... And [as for] those of u who die and leave wives behind, these shall wait..... 2/240 Waallatheena yutawaffawnaminkum wayatharoona azwajan wasiyyatanli-azwajihim ... and those of u who die and leave wives behind shall bequeath to their wives..... 6/61 ...almawtu tawaffat-hurusuluna wahum la yufarritoona ...At length, when death approaches one of you, Our angels take his soul, and they never fail in their duty. 7/37 ...alkitabi hatta itha jaat-humrusuluna yatawaffawnahum qaloo... ...until, when our messengers (of death) arrive and take their souls, ... 7/126 ...AAalaynasabran watawaffana muslimeena. ...pour out on us patience and constancy, and take our souls unto thee as Muslims 8/50 Walaw tara ith yatawaffaallatheena kafaroo ... If thou couldst see, when the angels take the souls of the Unbelievers (at death) 10/46 ...naAAiduhum aw natawaffayannaka fa-ilaynamarjiAAuhum thumma Allahu shaheedun AAala mayafAAaloona. some part of what We promise them,- or We take thy soul (to Our Mercy) (Before that),- in any case, to Us is their return: ultimately Allah is witness, to all that they do 10/104 ...Allahaallathee yatawaffakum waomirtu an akoona minaalmu/mineena But I worship Allah - Who will take your souls (at death): I am commanded to be (in the ranks) of the Believers. 12/101 ...alddunyawaal-akhirati tawaffanee musliman waalhiqneebialssaliheena ...Take Thou my soul (at death) as one submitting to Thy will (as a Muslim), and unite me with the righteous." 13/40 Wa-in ma nuriyannaka baAAdaallathee naAAiduhum aw natawaffayannaka fa-innamaAAalayka albalaghu waAAalayna alhisabu Whether We shall show thee (within thy life-time) part of what we promised them or take to ourselves thy soul (before it is all accomplished),- thy duty is to make (the Message) reach them: it is our part to call them to account. 16/28 Allatheena tatawaffahumu almala-ikatuthalimee anfusihim... "(Namely) those whose lives the angels take in a state of wrong-doing to their own souls." Then would they offer submission (with the pretence), "We did no evil (knowingly)." (The angels will reply), "Nay, but verily Allah knoweth all that ye did; 16/70 WaAllahu khalaqakum thummayatawaffakum waminkum man yuraddu ila... It is Allah who creates you and takes your souls at death;... 22/5 ...man yutawaffawaminkum man yuraddu ila arthali ... ...that ye may reach your age of full strength; and some of you are called to die... 32/11 Qul yatawaffakum malaku almawti allatheewukkila bikum thumma ila rabbikum turjaAAoona. Say: "The Angel of Death, put in charge of you, will (duly) take your souls: then shall ye be brought back to your Lord." 40/67 ...o shuyookhan waminkum man yutawaffa min qabluwalitablughoo... ...reach your age of full strength; then lets you become old,- though of you there are some who die before... 40/77 ...aw natawaffayannaka fa-ilayna yurjaAAoona ...We show thee (in this life) some part of what We promise them,- or We take thy soul (to Our Mercy) (before that),-(in any case) it is to Us that they shall (all) return. 47/27 Fakayfa itha tawaffat-humu almala-ikatuyadriboona wujoohahum waadbarahum But how (will it be) when the angels take their souls at death, and smite their faces and their backs? 3/55 Ith qala Allahu yaAAeesa innee mutawaffeeka warafiAAuka ilayya... Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will cause u to die and raise thee to Myself and clear thee... _______________________________________ and as mentioned before, where meaning of Tawaffa is to be taken as "taking soul at sleep", the word sleep or night is mentioned with them in quran and that is only in 2 places in quran. 6/60 Wahuwa allathee yatawaffakumbiallayli wayaAAlamu... It is He who doth take your souls by night, and hath knowledge.. 39/42 Allahu yatawaffa al-anfusa heenamawtiha waallatee... It is Allah that takes the souls (of men) at death; and those that die not (He takes) during their sleep... i hope this info will be useful |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 04 October 2008 at 6:34am
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So Muslims do believe that the soul and body die at the same time, except when sleeping?
Does this mean that the soul ceases to exist?
"What is it called, when a person sentenced to death by crucifixion is impaled on the cross but still survives?"
The soldiers stabbed Jesus to make sure He was dead. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 04 October 2008 at 12:25pm
Was the Person on the
Cross Really Jesus? �About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud
voice,"My God, my God, why have you
forsaken me?" (Mathew 27:46) �And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud
voice, "My God, my God, why have you
forsaken me?" (Mark How can Jesus be forsaken when
God does not forsake his faithful ones?? Now the Christians have four options
to choose from.
1.
The person put on the cross was not
really Jesus. 2.
Jesus (pbuh) was not faithful to God. 3.
Jesus (pbuh) is a lied that God forsook him. �There is no reference to Jesus� death as a crucifixion in the pre-Markan Jesus material� (Mack Burton, Who Wrote the New Testament? The Making of the Christian Myth, p. 87) |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 04 October 2008 at 2:25pm
I don't see any reason to believe that soul dies at death? Where do you get that from. Soul is 'taken', body dies.
Hasan
------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 04 October 2008 at 6:42pm
|
The translation of the verse 4:159 has made me think on another line. Please see:
"And there is none among the people of the Book but will believe in it (it; refers to being crucified) before his (it may be people of book and not jesus) death and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them." (4:159)
It means every one of the Jews and the christians will keep on believing that Jesus was killed or died on the cross (and this is true) till the end of their life (till their death). It also proves that Jesus himself will never come back again in this world.
The verse is telling that he will be a witness against them on the day of judgement. That means he will not come back. If he was coming back then he could be a witness against the false belief of the Jews and the christians here in this world. The verse is telling tht he will only be a witness on the day of judgement.
The hadith that I had quoted with the oath of the prophet also proved same thing that Isa a.s. is not coming back himself. The prophet while speaking to his companions said, "By Allah in whose hands is my life, Ibne Maryam will descend amongst you as a just Judge. He will break the cross and kill the swine....."
This Hadith has words which have symbolic meanings. Maudoodi sahib (and others) have explained the breaking of the cross as not really breaking the cross but the breaking of the christian teachings etc. Some have also explained that Isa a.s. will not go hunting swines. It means something else, that the nasty type enemies of Islam (dajjal) will be killed.
I say, if Isa a.s. will not break any cross and he will not really kill any swine and these things have some other meaning, then we have to think about other things too. i.e. What is the meaning of Isa ibne maryam will land amongst YOU. Who is this YOU? Is it not sahabah? Yes, it should be Sahabah. But Isa a.s. did not come in the time of Sahabah and we believe that YOU is somebody else, i.e. US.
So if everything is metaphorical, it has some other meaning, then Only Isa a.s. is left in that Hadith. Could that word not have some other meaning please and not exactly Isa Ibne Maryam? When everything else is translated as symbolic then why not Ibne Maraym be also symbolic word in that Hadith which is mentioned in Bukhari and Muslim, both books of Hadith with the oath of the prophet s.a.w.s.
So it seems that Isa a.s. himself will not come again in this world. It will be some one else who will come. The coming is definite. But not the same man. He says he will be a witness against them on the day of judgement.
------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: H3OO
Date Posted: 04 October 2008 at 11:52pm
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Thanks for that explanation MM. spot on. It surely has to be either one of them. |
Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 05 October 2008 at 4:51pm
Response to minuteman All Christians Will Believe in `Isa Before He Dies Allah said, [وَإِن مِّنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَـبِ إِلاَّ لَيُؤْمِنَنَّ بِهِ قَبْلَ مَوْتِهِ وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَـمَةِ يَكُونُ عَلَيْهِمْ شَهِيداً ] (And there is none of the People of the Scripture, but must believe in him, before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection, he will be a witness against them.) Ibn Jarir recorded that Ibn `Abbas commented, [وَإِن مِّنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَـبِ إِلاَّ لَيُؤْمِنَنَّ بِهِ قَبْلَ مَوْتِهِ] (And there is none of the People of the Scripture, but must believe in him, before his death.) before the death of `Isa, son of Maryam, peace be upon him. Al-`Awfi reported similar from Ibn `Abbas. Abu Malik commented; [إِلاَّ لَيُؤْمِنَنَّ بِهِ قَبْلَ مَوْتِهِ] (but must believe in him, before his death.) "This occurs after `Isa returns and before he dies, as then, all of the People of the Scriptures will believe in him.'' The Hadiths Regarding the Descent of `Isa Just Before the Day of Judgement, and his MissionIn the chapter about the Prophets in his Sahih, under, "The Descent of `Isa, Son of Maryam,'' Al-Bukhari recorded that Abu Hurayrah said that the Messenger of Allah said, �وَالَّذِي نَفْسِي بِيَدِهِ، لَيُوشِكَنَّ أَنْ يَنْزِلَ فِيكُمُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ حَكَمًا عَدْلًا، فَيَكْسِرَ الصَّلِيبَ، وَيَقْتُلَ الْخِنْزِيرَ، وَيَضَعَ الْجِزْيَةَ، وَيَفِيضَ المَالُ حَتَّى لَا يَقْبَلَهُ أَحَدٌ، حَتَّى تَكُونَ السَّجْدَةُ خَيْرًا لَهُمْ مِنَ الدُّنْيَا وَمَا فِيهَا� (By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, the son of Maryam (`Isa) will shortly descend among you as a just ruler, and will break the cross, kill the pig and abolish the Jizyah. Then there will be an abundance of wealth and nobody will accept charitable gifts any more. At that time, one prostration will be better for them than this life and all that is in it.) Abu Hurayrah then said, "Read if you will, [وَإِن مِّنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَـبِ إِلاَّ لَيُؤْمِنَنَّ بِهِ قَبْلَ مَوْتِهِ وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَـمَةِ يَكُونُ عَلَيْهِمْ شَهِيداً ] (And there is none of the People of the Scripture, but must believe in him, before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection, he will be a witness against them.)'' Muslim recorded this Hadith. So, Allah's statement, [قَبْلَ مَوْتِهِ] (before his death) refers to the death of `Isa, son of Maryam. Another Hadith by Abu HurayrahImam Ahmad recorded that Abu Hurayrah said that the Messenger of Allah said, �لَيُهِلَّنَّ عِيسَى بِفَجِّ الرَّوْحَاءِ بِالْحَجِّ أَوِ الْعُمْرَةِ، أَوْ لَيَثْنِيَنَّهُمَا جَمِيعًا� (`Isa will say Ihlal from the mountain highway of Ar-Rawha' for Hajj, `Umrah or both.) Muslim also recorded it. Ahmad recorded that Abu Hurayrah said that the Prophet said, �يَنْزِلُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ فَيَقْتُلُ الْخِنْزِيرَ، وَيَمْحُو الصَّلِيبَ، وَتُجْمَعُ لَهُ الصَّلَاةُ، وَيُعْطَى الْمَالُ حَتَّى لَا يُقْبَلَ، وَيَضَعُ الْخَرَاجَ، وَيَنْزِلُ الرَّوْحَاءَ فَيَحُجُّ مِنْهَا أَوْ يَعْتَمِرُ أَوْ يَجْمَعُهُمَا� (`Isa, son of Maryam, will descend and will kill the pig, break the cross, lead the prayer in congregation and give away wealth until it is no longer accepted by anyone. He will also abolish the Jizyah and go to Ar-Rawha' from where he will go to perform Hajj, `Umrah or both.) Abu Hurayrah then recited, [وَإِن مِّنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَـبِ إِلاَّ لَيُؤْمِنَنَّ بِهِ قَبْلَ مَوْتِهِ] (And there is none of the People of the Scripture, but must believe in him, before his death.) Hanzalah said, "Abu Hurayrah added, `Will believe in `Isa before `Isa dies,' but I do not know if this was a part of the Prophet's Hadith or if it was something that Abu Hurayrah said on his own. '' Ibn Abi Hatim also recorded this Hadith. Another HadithAl-Bukhari recorded that Abu Hurayrah said that the Messenger of Allah said, �كَيْفَ بِكُمْ إِذَا نَزَلَ فِيكُمُ الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ وَإِمَامُكُمْ مِنْكُم� (How will you be when Al-Masih, son of Maryam (`Isa) descends among you while your Imam is from among yourselves) Imam Ahmad and Muslim also recorded this Hadith. Another HadithImam Ahmad recorded that Abu Hurayrah said that the Prophet said, �الْأَنْبِيَاءُ إِخْوَةٌ لِعَلَّاتٍ، أُمَّهَاتُهُمْ شَتَّى، وَدِينُهُمْ وَاحِدٌ، وَإِنِّي أَوْلَى النَّاسِ بِعِيسَى ابْنِ مَرْيَمَ، لِأَنَّهُ لَمْ يَكُنْ نَبِيٌّ بَيْنِي وَبَيْنَهُ، وَإِنَّهُ نَازِلٌ فَإِذَا رَأَيْتُمُوهُ فَاعْرِفُوهُ: رَجُلٌ مَرْبُوعٌ إِلَى الْحُمْرَةِ وَالْبَيَاضِ، عَلَيْهِ ثَوْبَانِ مُمَصَّرَانِ، كَأَنَّ رَأْسَهُ يَقْطُرُ، وَإِنْ لَمْ يُصِبْهُ بَلَلٌ، فَيَدُقُّ الصَّلِيبَ، وَيَقْتُلُ الْخِنْزِيرَ، وَيَضَعُ الْجِزْيَةَ، وَيَدْعُو النَّاسَ إِلَى الْإِسْلَامِ، وَيُهْلِكُ اللهُ فِي زَمَانِهِ الْمِلَلَ كُلَّهَا إِلَّا الْإِسْلَامَ، وَيُهْلِكُ اللهُ فِي زَمَانِهِ الْمَسِيحَ الدَّجَّالَ،ثُمَّ تَقَعُ الْأَمَنَةُ عَلَى الْأَرْضِ حَتَّى تَرْتَعَ الْأُسُودُ مَعَ الْإِبِلِ، وَالنِّمَارُ مَعَ الْبَقَرِ، وَالذِّئَابُ مَعَ الْغَنَمِ، وَيَلْعَبُ الصِّبْيَانُ بِالحَيَّاتِ لَا تَضُرُّهُمْ، فَيَمْكُثُ أَرْبَعِينَ سَنَةً ثُمَّ يُتَوَفَّى، وَيُصَلِّي عَلَيْهِ الْمُسْلِمُون� (The Prophets are paternal brothers; their mothers are different, but their religion is one. I, more than any of mankind, have more right to `Isa, son of Maryam, for there was no Prophet between him and I. He will descend, and if you see him, know him. He is a well-built man, (the color of his skin) between red and white. He will descend while wearing two long, light yellow garments. His head appears to be dripping water, even though no moisture touched it. He will break the cross, kill the pig, and banish the Jizyah and will call the people to Islam. During his time, Allah will destroy all religions except Islam and Allah will destroy Al-Masih Ad-Dajjal (the False Messiah). Safety will then fill the earth, so much so that the lions will mingle with camels, tigers with cattle and wolves with sheep. Children will play with snakes, and they will not harm them. `Isa will remain for forty years and then will die, and Muslims will offer the funeral prayer for him.) Abu Dawud also recorded it. Another Hadith In his Sahih, Muslim recorded that Abu Hurayrah related to the Messenger of Allah that he said, �لَا تَقُومُ السَّاعَةُ حَتَّى يَنْزِلَ الرُّومُ بِالْأَعْمَاقِ أَوَ بِدَابِقَ، فَيَخْرُجُ إِلَيْهِمُ جَيْشٌ مِنَ الْمَدِينَةِ مِنْ خِيَارِ أَهْلِ الْأَرْضِ يَوْمَئِذٍ، فَإِذَا تَصَافُّوا، قَالَتِ الرُّومُ: خَلُّوا بَيْنَنَا وَبَيْنَ الَّذِينَ سَبَوْا مِنَّا نُقَاتِلْهُمْ، فَيَقُولُ الْمُسْلِمُونَ: لَا وَاللهِ، لَا نُخَلِّي بَيْنَكُمْ وَبَيْنَ إِخْوَانِنَا، فَيُقَاتِلُونَهُمْ، (فَيَنْهَزِمُ) ثُلُثٌ لَا يَتُوبُ اللهُ عَلَيْهِمْ أَبَدًا، وَيُقْتَلُ ثُلُثُهُ أَفْضَلُ الشُّهَدَاءِ عِنْدَ اللهِ، وَيَفْتَتحُ الثَّلُثُ لَا يُفْتَنُونَ أَبَدًا، فَيَفْتَتِحُونَ قُسْطُنْطِينِيَّةَ، فَبَيْنَمَا هُمْ يَقْسِمُونَ الْغَنَائِمَ قَدْ عَلَّقُوا سُيُوفَهُمْ بِالزَّيْتُونِ، إِذْ صَاحَ فِيهِمُ الشَّيْطَانُ: إِنَّ الْمَسِيحَ قَدْ خَلَفَكُمْ فِي أَهْلِيكُمْ، فَيَخْرُجُونَ، وَذَلِكَ بَاطِلٌ، فَإِذَا جَاءُوا الشَّامَ خَرَجَ، فَبَيْنَمَا هُمْ يُعِدُّونَ لِلْقِتَالِ يُسَوُّونَ الصُّفُوفَ، إِذْ أُقِيَمتِ الصَّلَاةُ فَيَنْزِلُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ، فَأَمَّهُمْ، فَإِذَا رَآهُ عَدُوُّ اللهِ، ذَابَ كَمَا يَذُوبُ الْمِلْحُ فِي الْمَاءِ، فَلَوْ تَرَكَهُ لَانْذَابَ حَتَّى يَهْلِكَ، وَلكِنْ يَقْتُلُهُ اللهُ بِيَدِهِ، فَيُرِيهِمْ دَمَهُ فِي حَرْبَتِه� (The (Last) Hour will not start until the Romans occupy Al-A`maq or Dabiq. An army, comprised of the best of the people of the earth then, will come from Al-Madinah and challenge them. When they camp face to face, the Romans will say, `Let us fight those who captured some of us.' The Muslims will say, `Nay! By Allah, we will never let you get to our brothers.' They will fight them. A third of the (Muslim) army will flee in defeat, and those are the ones whom Allah will never forgive. Another third will be killed, and those are the best martyrs before Allah. The last third will be victorious, and this third will never be stricken with Fitnah, and they will capture Constantinople (Istanbul). While they are dividing war booty, after hanging their swords on olive trees, Shaytan will shout among them, saying, `Al-Masih (Ad-Dajjal) has cornered your people'. They will leave to meet Ad-Dajjal in Ash-Sham. This will be a false warning, and when they reach Ash-Sham, Ad-Dajjal will then appear. When the Muslims are arranging their lines for battle and the prayer is called for, `Isa, son of Maryam, will descend and lead them in prayer. When the enemy of Allah (the False Messiah) sees him, he will dissolve just as salt dissolves in water, and if any of him were left, he would continue dissolving until he died. Allah will kill him with the hand of `Isa and will show the Muslims his blood on his spear.) Muslim recorded that `Abdullah bin `Amr said that the Messenger of Allah said, �لَتُقَاتِلُنَّ الْيَهُودَ فَلَتَقْتُلُنَّهُمْ، حَتَى يَقُولَ الْحَجَرُ: يَامُسْلِمُ هَذَا يَهُودِيٌّ فَتَعَال فَاقْتُلْه� (You will fight the Jews and will kill them, until the stone will say, `O Muslim! There is a Jew here, so come and kill him.') Muslim recorded that Abu Hurayrah said that the Messenger of Allah said, �لَا تَقُومُ السَّاعَةُ حَتَّى يُقَاتِلَ الْمُسْلِمُونَ الْيَهُودَ، فَيَقْتُلُهُمُ الْمُسْلِمُونَ حَتَّى يَخْتَبِىءَ الْيَهُودِيُّ مِنْ وَرَاءِ الْحَجَرِ وَالشَّجَرِ، فَيَقُولُ الْحَجَرُ وَالشَّجَرُ: يَامُسْلِمُ يَاعَبْدَاللهِ هَذَا يَهُودِيٌّ خَلْفِي فَتَعَالَ فَاقْتُلْهُ إِلَّا الْغَرْقَدَ فَإِنَّهُ مِنْ شَجَرِ الْيَهُود� (The Hour will not start, until after the Muslims fight the Jews and the Muslims kill them. The Jew will hide behind a stone or tree, and the tree will say, `O Muslim! O servant of Allah! This is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.' Except Al-Gharqad, for it is a tree of the Jews.) Muslim bin Al-Hajjaj recorded in his Sahih that An-Nawwas bin Sam`an said, "The Messenger of Allah , mentioned Ad-Dajjal one day and kept belittling him (because being blind, yet claiming to be Allah) and speaking in grave terms about him until we thought that he was hiding in gardens of date-trees (in Al-Madinah). When we went by the Messenger, he sensed this anxiety in us and said, �مَا شَأْنُكُمْ؟� (What is the matter with you) We said, `O Messenger of Allah! Earlier, you mentioned Ad-Dajjal and while belittling him you spoke gravely about him until we thought that he was hiding in gardens of date-trees (of Al-Madinah).' He said, �غَيْرُ الدَّجَّالِ أَخْوَفُنِي عَلَيكُمْ، إِنْ يخْرُجْ وَأَنَا فِيكُمْ فَأَنَا حَجِيجُهُ دُونَكُمْ، وَإِنْ يَخْرُجْ وَلَسْتُ فِيكُمْ فَامْرُؤٌ حَجِيجُ نَفْسِهِ، واللهُ خَلِيفَتِي عَلى كُلِّ مُسْلمٍ. إِنَّهُ شَابٌّ قَطَطٌ، عَينُهُ طافِيةٌ كَأَنِّي أُشَبِّهُهُ بِعَبْدِالعُزَّى بْنِ قَطَنٍ، مَنْ أَدْرَكَهُ مِنْكُمْ فَلْيَقْرَأ عَلَيْهِ فَوَاتِحَ سُورَةِ الْكَهْفِ، إِنَّه خَارِجٌ مِنْ خَلَّةٍ بَيْنَ الشَّامِ والعِرَاقِ، فَعَاثَ يَمِينًا وَعَاثَ شِمَالًا، يَاعِبَادَ اللهِ فَاثْبُتوا� (I fear other than Ad-Dajjal for you! If he appears while I am still among you, I will be his adversary on your behalf. If he appears while I am not among you, each one will depend on himself and Allah will be the Helper of every Muslim after me. He is young, with very curly hair and his eye is smashed. I thought that he looked like `Abdul-`Uzza bin Qatan. Whoever lives long and meets Ad-Dajjal, then let him recite the beginnings of Surat Al-Kahf. He will appear on a pass between Ash-Sham (Syria) and Al-`Iraq. He will wreak havoc to the right and left. O Servants of Allah! Hold fast.) We said, `O Messenger of Allah! How long will he stay on earth' He said, �أَرْبَعُونَ يَوْمًا، يَومٌ كَسَنَةٍ، وَيَوْمٌ كَشَهْرٍ، وَيَوْمٌ كَجُمُعَةٍ، وَسَائِرُ أَيَّامِهِ كَأَيَّامِكُم� (Forty days: One day as long as a year, one day as long as a month and one day as long as a week. The rest of his days will be as long as one of your ordinary days.) We said, `O Messenger of Allah! As for the day that is like a year, will the prayers of one day suffice for it' He said, �لَا، اقْدُرُوا لَهُ قَدْرَه� (No. Count for its due measure.) We said, `O Messenger of Allah, how will his speed be on earth' He said, �كَالْغَيْثِ اسْتَدْبَرَتْهُ الرِّيحُ فَيَأْتِي عَلى قَوْمٍ فَيَدْعُوهُمْ فَيُؤْمِنُون بِهِ، وَيَسْتَجِيبُونَ لَهُ، فَيَأْمُرُ السَّمَاءَ فَتُمْطِرُ، وَالأَرْضَ فَتُنْبِتُ، فَتَرُوحُ عَلَيْهِمْ سَارِحَتُهُمْ أَطْوَلَ مَا كَانَتْ ذُرًى، وَأَسْبَغَهُ ضُرُوعًا، وَأَمَدَّهُ خَوَاصِرَ، ثُمَّ يَأْتِي الْقَوْمَ فَيَدْعُوهُمْ فَيَرُدُّونَ عَلَيْهِ قَوْلَهُ، فَيَنْصَرِفُ عَنْهُمْ فَيُصْبِحُونَ مُمْحِلِينَ لَيْسَ بِأَيْدِيهِمْ شَيْءٌ مِنْ أَمْوَالِهِمْ وَيَمُرُّ بِالْخَرِبَةِ فَيَقُولُ لَهَا: أَخْرِجِي كُنُوزَكِ، فَتَتْبَعُهُ كُنُوزُهَا كَيعَاسِيبِ النَّحْلِ، ثُمَّ يَدْعُو رَجُلًا مُمْتَلِئًا شَبَابًا فَيَضْرِبُهُ بِالسَّيْفِ، فَيَقْطَعُهُ جِزْلَتَيْنِ رَمْيَةَ الْغَرَضِ، ثُمَّ يَدْعُوهُ، فَيُقْبِلُ وَيَتَهَلَّلُ وَجْهُهُ وَيَضْحَكُ، فَبَيْنَما هُوَ كَذَلِكَ إِذْ بَعَثَ اللهُ الْمَسِيَح ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ عَلَيْهِ السَّلَامُ، فَيَنْزِلُ عِنْدَ المَنَارَةِ البَيْضَاءِ شَرْقِيَّ دِمَشْقَ بَيْنَ مَهْرُودَتَيْنِ، وَاضِعًا كَفَّيْهِ عَلَى أَجْنِحَةِ مَلَكَيْنِ، إِذَا طَأْطَأَ رَأْسَهُ قَطَرَ،وَإذَا رَفَعَهُ تَحَدَّرَ مِنْهُ جُمَانٌ كَاللُّؤْلُؤِ، وَلَا يَحِلُّ لِكَافِرٍ يَجِدُ رِيحَ نَفَسِهِ إِلَّا مَاتَ، وَنَفَسُهُ يَنْتَهِي حَيْثُ يَنْتَهِي طَرَفُهُ، فَيَطْلُبُهُ حَتَّى يُدْرِكَهُ بِبَابِ لُدَ، فَيَقْتُلُهُ، ثُمَّ يَأْتِي عِيسَى عَلَيْهِ السَّلَامُ قَوْمًا قَدْ عَصَمَهُمُ اللهُ مِنْهُ، فَيَمْسَحُ عَنْ وُجُوهِهِمْ، وَيُحَدِّثُهُمْ بدَرَجَاتِهِمْ فِي الْجَنَّةِ، فَبَيْنَمَا هُوَ كَذَلِكَ إِذْ أَوْحَى اللهُ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ إِلَى عِيسَى: إِنِّي قَدْ أَخْرَجْتُ عِبَادًا لِي لَا يَدَانِ لِأَحَدٍ بِقِتَالِهِمْ، فَحَرِّزْ عِبَادِي إِلَى الطُّورِ، ويَبْعَثُ اللهُ يَأْجُوجَ وَمَأْجُوجَ وَهُمْ مِنْ كُلِّ حَدَبٍ يَنْسِلُونَ، فَيَمُرُّ أَوَّلُهُمْ عَلَى بُحَيْرَةِ طَبَرِيَّةَ فَيَشْرَبُونَ مَا فِيهَا، وَيَمُرُّ آخِرُهُمْ فَيقُولُونَ: لَقَدْ كَانَ بِهذِهِ مَرَّةً مَاءٌ، ويُحْصَرُ نَبِيُّ اللهِ عِيسَى وَأَصْحَابُهُ، حَتَّى يَكُونَ رَأْسُ الثَّورِ لِأَحَدِهِمْ خَيْرٌ مِنْ مِائَةِ دِينَارٍ لِأَحَدِكُمُ الْيَوْمَ، فَيَرْغَبُ نَبِيُّ اللهِ عِيسَى وَأَصْحَابُهُ، فَيُرسِلُ اللهُ عَلَيْهِمُ النَّغَفَ فِي رِقَابِهِمْ، فَيُصْبِحُونَ فَرْسَى كَمَوْتِ نَفْسٍ وَاحِدَةٍ، ثُمَّ يَهْبِطُ نَبِيُّ اللهِ عِيسَى وَأَصْحَابُهُ إِلَى الْأَرْضِ، فَلَا يَجِدُونَ فِي الْأَرْضِ مَوْضِعَ شِبْرٍ إِلَّا مَلَأَهُ زَهَمُهُمْ ونَتْنُهُمْ، فَيَرْغَبُ نَبِيُّ اللهِ عِيسَى وَأَصْحَابُهُ إِلَى اللهِ، فَيُرْسِلُ اللهُ، طَيْرًا كَأَعْنَاقِ الْبُخْتِ، فَتَحْمِلُهُمْ فَتَطْرَحُهُمْ حَيْثَ شَاءَ اللهُ، ثُمَّ يُرْسِلُ اللهُ مَطَرًا لَا يَكُنُّ مِنْهُ بَيْتُ مَدَرٍ، وَلَا وَبَرٍ، فَيَغْسِلُ الْأَرْضَ حَتَّى يَتْرُكَهَا كَالزَّلَفَةِ، ثُمَّ يُقَالُ لِلْأَرْضِ: أَخْرِجِي ثَمَرَكِ وَرُدِّي بَرَكَتَكِ، فَيَوْمَئِذٍ تَأْكُلُ الْعِصَابَةُ مِنَ الرُّمَّانَةِ، وَيَسْتَظِلُّونَ بِقِحْفِهَا، وَيُبَارِكُ اللهُ فِي الرِّسْلِ حَتَّى إِنَّ اللِّقْحَةَ مِنَ الْإِبِلِ لَتَكْفِي الفِئَامَ، (مِنَ النَّاسِ وَاللُّقْمَةَ مِنَ الْفَمِ لَتَكْفِي الْفَخِذَ مِنَ النَّاسِ)، فَبَيْنَما هُمْ كَذَلِكَ إِذْ بَعَثَ اللهُ رِيحًا طَيِّبَةً، فَتَأْخُذُهُمْ تَحْتَ آبَاطِهِمْ، فَتَقْبِضُ رُوحَ كُلِّ مُؤْمِنٍ وَكُلِّ مُسْلِمٍ، وَيَبْقَى شِرَارُ النَّاسِ يَتَهَارَجُونَ فِيهَا تَهَارُجَ الْحُمُرِ،فَعَلَيْهِمْ تَقُومُ السَّاعَة� (Like the storm when driven by the wind. He will come to a people and will call them (to his worship), and they will believe in him and accept his call. He will order the sky and it will rain, the land and it will grow (vegetation). Their cattle will return to them with their hair the longest, their udders the fullest (with milk) and their stomachs the fattest. He will come to a different people and will call them (to his worship), and they will reject his call. He will then leave them. They will wake up in the morning destitute, missing all of their possessions. He will pass by a deserted land and will say to it, `Bring out your treasures', and its treasures will follow him just like swarms of bees. He will summon a man full of youth and will strike him with the sword once and will cut him into two pieces (and will separate between them like) the distance (between the hunter and) the game. He will call the dead man and he will come, and his face will radiant with pleasure and laughter. Afterwards (while all this is happening with Ad-Dajjal), Allah will send Al-Masih (`Isa), son of Maryam down. He will descend close to the white minaret to the east of Damascus. He will be wearing garments lightly colored with saffron and his hands will be placed on the wings of two angels. Whenever he lowers his head droplets fall. Whenever he raises his head, precious stones that look like pearls fall. No disbeliever can survive `Isa's breath, which reaches the distance of his sight. He will pursue Ad-Dajjal and will follow him to the doors of (the Palestinian city of) Ludd where he will kill him. A group of people who, by Allah's help, resisted and survived Ad-Dajjal, will pass by `Isa and he will anoint their faces and inform them about their grades in Paradise. Shortly afterwards, while this is happening with `Isa, Allah will reveal to him, `I raised a people of My creation that no one can fight. Therefore, gather My servants to At-Tur (the mountain of Musa in Sinai).' Then, Allah will raise Gog and Magog and they will swiftly swarm from every mound. Their front forces will reach Lake Tabariah (Sea of Galilee) and will drink all its water. The last of their forces will say as they pass by the lake, `This lake once had water!' Meanwhile, `Isa, Allah's Prophet, will be cornered along with his companions until the head of a bull will be more precious to them than a hundred Dinars to you today. `Isa, Allah's Prophet, and his companions will invoke Allah for help and Allah will send An-Naghaf (a worm) into the necks of Gog and Magog! The morning will come, and they will all be dead as if it was the death of one soul. Afterwards, `Isa, the Prophet of Allah, will come down with his companions to the low grounds (from Mount At-Tur). They will find that no space of a hand-span on the earth was free of their fat and rot (rotten corpses). `Isa, the Prophet of Allah, and his companions will seek Allah in supplication. Allah will send birds as large as the necks of camels. They will carry them (the corpses of Gog and Magog) and will throw them wherever Allah wills. Afterwards, Allah will send rain that no house made of mud or animal hair will be saved from, and it will cleanse the earth until it is as clean as a mirror. The earth will be commanded (by Allah), `Produce your fruits and regain your blessing.' Then, the group will eat from a pomegranate and will take shelter under the shade of its skin. Milk will be blessed, so much so that the milk-producing camel will yield large amounts that suffice for a large group of people. Meanwhile, Allah will send a pure wind that will overcome Muslims from under their arms and will take the soul of every believer and Muslim. Only the evildoers among people will remain. They will indulge in shameless public sex like that of donkeys. On them, the Hour will begin.) Imam Ahmad and the collectors of the Sunan also recorded this Hadith. We will mention this Hadith again using the chain of narration collected by Ahmad explaining Allah's statement in Surat Al-Anbiya' (chapter 21), [حَتَّى إِذَا فُتِحَتْ يَأْجُوجُ وَمَأْجُوجُ] (Until, when Ya`juj and Ma`juj (Gog and Magog people) are let loose (from their barrier).) In our time, in the year seven hundred and forty-one, a white minaret was built in the Umayyad Masjid (in Damascus) made of stone, in place of the minaret that was destroyed by a fire which the Christians were suspected to have started. May Allah's continued curses descend on the Christians until the Day of Resurrection. There is a strong feeling that this minaret is the one that `Isa will descend on, according to this Hadith. Another Hadith Muslim recorded in his Sahih that Ya`qub bin `Asim bin `Urwah bin Mas`ud Ath-Thaqafi said, "I heard `Abdullah bin `Amr saying to a man who asked him, `What is this Hadith that you are narrating You claim that the Hour will start on such and such date.' He said, `Subhan Allah (glory be to Allah),' or he said, `There is no deity worthy of worship except Allah.' I almost decided to never narrate anything to anyone. I only said, "Soon, you will witness tremendous incidents, the House (the Ka`bah) will be destroyed by fire, and such and such things will occur.'' He then said, `The Messenger of Allah said, �يَخْرُجُ الدَّجَّالُ فِي أُمَّتِي فَيَمْكُثُ أَرْبَعِينَ، لَا أَدْرِي أَرْبَعِينَ يَوْمًا أَوْ أَرْبَعِينَ شَهْرًا أَوْ أَرْبَعِينَ عَامًا، فَيَبْعَثُ اللهُ تَعَالى عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ كَأَنَّهُ عُرْوَةُ بْنُ مَسْعُودٍ، فَيَطْلُبُهُ فَيُهْلِكُهُ، ثُمَّ يَمْكُثُ النَّاسُ سَبْعَ سِنِينَ لَيْسَ بَيْنَ اثْنَيْنِ عَدَاوَةٌ، ثُمَّ يُرْسِلُ اللهُ ريحًا بَارِدَةً مِنْ قِبَلِ الشَّامِ، فَلَا يَبْقَى عَلَى وَجْهِ الْأَرْضِ أَحَدٌ فِي قَلْبِهِ مِثْقَالُ ذَرَّةٍ مِنْ خَيْرٍ أَوْ إِيمَانٍ إِلَّا قَبَضَتْهُ، حَتَّى لَوْ أَنَّ أَحَدَكُمْ دَخَلَ فِي كَبِدِ جَبَلٍ لَدَخَلَتْه عَلَيْهِ حَتَّى تَقْبِضَه� قال: سمعتها من رسول اللهصلى الله عليه وسلّم �فَيَبْقَى شِرَارُ النَّاسِ فِي خِفَّةِ الطَّيْرِ وَأَحْلَامِ السِّبَاعِ، لَا يَعْرِفُونَ مَعْرُوفًا، وَلَا يُنْكِرُون مُنْكرًا، فَيَتمَثَّلُ لَهُمُ الشَّيْطَانُ فَيَقُولُ: أَلَا تَسْتَجِيبُونَ؟ فَيَقُولُونَ: فَمَا تَأْمُرُنَا؟ فَيَأْمُرُهُمْ بِعِبَادَةِ الْأَوْثَانِ، وَهُمْ فِي ذلِكَ دَارٌّ رِزْقُهُمْ، حَسَنٌ عَيْشُهُمْ، ثُمَّ يُنْفَخُ فِي الصُّورِ فَلَا يَسْمَعُهُ أَحَدٌ إِلَّا أَصْغَى لِيتًا وَرَفَعَ لِيتًا،قَالَ: وَأَوَّلُ مَنْ يَسْمَعُهُ رَجُلٌ يَلُوطُ حَوْضَ إِبِلِهِ، قَالَ: فَيَصْعَقُ وَيَصْعَقُ النَّاسُ، ثُمَّ يُرْسِلُ اللهُ أَوْ قَالَ: يُنْزِلُ اللهُ مَطَرًا كَأَنَّهُ الطَّلُّ أَوْ قَالَ الظِّلُّ نُعْمَانُ الشَّاكُّ فَتَنْبُتُ مِنْهُ أَجْسَادُ النَّاسِ، ثُمَّ يُنَفَخُ فِيهِ أُخْرَى فَإِذَا هُمْ قِيَامٌ يَنْظُرُونَ. ثُمَّ يُقَالُ: أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ: هَلُمُّوا إِلى رَبِّكُم� (Ad-Dajjal will appear in my nation and will remain for forty. (The narrator doubts whether it is forty days, months, or years).Then, Allah will send down `Isa, son of Maryam, looking just like `Urwah bin Mas`ud and he will seek Ad-Dajjal and will kill him. People will remain for seven years with no enmity between any two. Allah will send a cool wind from As-Sham that will leave no man on the face of the earth who has even the weight of an atom of good or faith, but will capture (his soul). Even if one of you takes refuge in the middle of a mountain, it will find him and capture (his soul). Afterwards, only the most evil people will remain. They will be as light as birds, with the comprehension of beasts. They will not know or enjoin righteousness or forbid or know evil. Shaytan will appear to them and will say to them, `Would you follow me.' They will say, `What do you command us' He will command them to worship the idols. Meanwhile, their provision will come to them in abundance and their life will be good. Then the Trumpet will be blown and every person who hears it, will lower one side of his head and raise the other side (trying to hear that distant sound). The first man who will hear the Trumpet is someone who is preparing the water pool for his camels, and he and the people will swoon away. Allah will send down heavy rain and the bodies of people will grow with it. The Trumpet will be blown in again and the people will be resurrected and looking all about, staring. It will be said to them, `O people! Come to your Lord,' [وَقِفُوهُمْ إِنَّهُمْ مَّسْئُولُونَ ] (But stop them, verily, they are to be questioned.) �ثم يقال: أخرجوا بعث النار، فيقال: من كم؟ فيقال: من كل ألف تسعمائة وتسعة وتسعين، قال: فذلك يوم� (It will then be said, `Bring forth the share of the Fire.' It will be asked, `How many' It will be said, `From every one thousand, nine hundred and ninety-nine.' That Day is when,) [يَجْعَلُ الْوِلْدَنَ شِيباً] (the children will turn grey-headed,) and, [يَوْمَ يُكْشَفُ عَن سَاقٍ] (The Day when the Shin shall be laid bare).)'' The Description of `Isa, upon him be Peace As mentioned earlier, `Abdur-Rahman bin Adam narrated that Abu Hurayrah said that the Prophet said, �فَإِذَا رَأَيْتُمُوهُ فَاعْرِفُوهُ: رَجُلٌ مَرْبُوعٌ إِلَى الْحُمْرَةٍ وَالْبَيَاضِ، عَلَيْهِ ثَوْبَانِ مُمَصَّرَانِ، كَأَنَّ رَأْسَهُ يَقْطُرُ وَإِنْ لَمْ يُصِبْهُ بَلَل� (If you see `Isa, know him. He is a well-built man, (the color of his skin) between red and white. He will descend while wearing light yellow garments. His head looks like it is dripping water, even though no moisture touched it.) In the Hadith that An-Nawwas bin Sam`an narrated, �فَيَنْزِلُ عِنْدَ الْمَنَارَةِ الْبَيْضَاءِ شَرْقِيَّ دِمَشْقَ بَيْنَ مَهْرُودَتَيْنِ وَاضِعًا كَفَّيْهِ عَلَى أَجْنِحَةِ مَلَكَيْنِ، إِذَا طَأْطَأَ رَأْسَهُ قَطَرَ، وَإِذَا رَفَعهُ تَحَدَّرَ مِنْهُ مِثْلُ جُمَانِ اللُّؤْلُؤ، لَا يَحِلُّ لِكَافِرٍ يَجِدُ رِيحَ نَفَسِهِ إِلَّا مَاتَ، وَنَفَسُهُ يَنْتَهِي حَيْثُ يَنْتَهِي طَرَفُه� (He will descend close to the white minaret to the east of Damascus. He will be wearing two garments lightly colored with saffron, having his hands on the wings of two angels. Whenever he lowers his head, drops will fall off of it. Whenever he raises his head, precious jewels like pearls will fall off of it. No disbeliever can survive `Isa's breath, and his breath reaches the distance of his sight.) Al-Bukhari and Muslim recorded that Abu Hurayrah said that the Messenger of Allah said, �لَيْلَةَ أُسْرِيَ بِي لَقِيتُ مُوسَى� (I met Musa on the night of my Ascension to heaven.) The Prophet then described him saying, as I think, �مُضْطَرِبٌ، رَجِلُ الرَّأْسِ كَأَنَّهُ مِنْ رِجَالِ شَنُوءَة� (He was a tall person with hair as if he was one of the men from the tribe of Shanu'ah. ) The Prophet further said, �وَلقِيتُ عِيسَى� فنعته النبيصلى الله عليه وسلّم فقال: �رَبْعَةٌ أَحْمَرُ كَأَنَّهُ خَرَجَ مِنْ دِيمَاس� يعني الحمام، �وَرَأَيْتُ إبْرَاهِيمَ وَأَنا أَشْبَهُ وَلَدِهِ بِه� (`I met `Isa.' The Prophet described him saying, `He was of moderate height and was red-faced as if he had just come out of a bathroom. I saw Ibrahim whom I resembled more than any of his children did.') Al-Bukhari recorded that Mujahid said that Ibn `Umar said that the Messenger of Allah said, �رَأَيْتُ مُوسَى وَعِيسَى وَإِبْرَاهِيمَ، فَأَمَّا عِيسَى فَأَحْمَرُ جَعْدٌ عَرِيضُ الصَّدْرِ، وَأَمَّا مُوسَى فَآدَمُ جَسِيمٌ سَبْطٌ، كَأَنَّهُ مِنْ رِجَالِ الزُّط� (I saw Musa, `Isa and Ibrahim. `Isa was of red complexion and had curly hair and a broad chest. Musa was of brown complexion and had straight hair and a tall stature, as if he was from the people of Az-Zutt.) Al-Bukhari and Muslim recorded that Ibrahim said that `Abdullah bin `Umar said, "The Prophet once mentioned the False Messiah (Al-Masih Ad-Dajjal) to people, saying, �إنَّ اللهَ لَيْسَ بِأَعْوَرَ، أَلَا إِنَّ الْمَسِيحَ الدَّجَّالَ أَعْوَرُ الْعَيْنِ الْيُمْنَى، كَأَنَّ عَيْنَهُ عِنَبَةٌ طَافِيَة� (Allah is not blind in His Eye. Al-Masih Ad-Dajjal is blind in his right eye. His eye is like a protruding grape.)'' Muslim recorded that the Messenger of Allah said, �وَأرَانِي اللهُ عِنْدَ الْكَعْبَةِ فِي الْمَنَامِ، فَإِذَا رَجُلٌ آدَمُ كَأَحْسَنِ مَا تَرَى مِنْ أُدْمِ الرِّجَالِ، تَضْرِبُ لِمَّتُهُ بَيْن مَنْكِبَيْهِ، رَجِلُ الشَّعْرِ، يَقْطُرُ رَأْسُهُ مَاءً،وَاضِعًا يَدَيْهِ عَلى مَنْكِبَيْ رَجُلَيْنِ، وَهُوَ يَطُوفُ بِالْبَيْتِ، فَقُلْتُ: مَنْ هَذَا؟ فَقَالُوا: هُوَ الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ، ثُمَّ رَأَيْتُ وَرَاءَهُ رَجُلًا جَعْدًا قَطِطًا، أَعْوَرَ الْعَيْنِ الْيُمْنَى، كَأَشْبَهِ مَنْ رَأَيْتُ بِابْنِ قَطَنٍ، وَاضِعًا يَدَيْهِ عَلى مَنْكِبَي رَجُلٍ، يَطُوفُ بِالْبَيْتِ، فَقُلْتُ: مَنْ هَذَا؟ قَالُوا: الْمَسِيحُ الدَّجَّال� (In a dream, I was at the Ka`bah and Allah made me see a light - colored man, a color that is as beautiful as a light - colored man could be, with combed hair that reached his shoulders. His hair was dripping water, and he was leaning on the shoulders of two men while circling the Ka`bah. I asked, `Who is this man' I was told, `This is the Al-Masih, son of Maryam.' Behind him, I saw a man with very curly hair who was blind in his right eye. He looked exactly as Ibn Qatan, and he was leaning on the shoulder of a man while circling the House. I asked, `Who is this man' I was told, `He is Al-Masih Ad-Dajjal.') Al-Bukhari recorded that Salim said that his father said, "No, By Allah! The Prophet did not say that `Isa was of red complexion but said, �بَيْنَمَا أَنَا نَائِمٌ أَطُوفُ بِالْكَعْبَةِ، فَإِذَا رَجُلٌ آدَمُ سَبْطُ الشَّعْرِ، يَتَهَادَى بَيْنَ رَجُلَيْنِ، يَنْطُفُ رَأْسُهُ مَاءً أَوْ يُهَرَاقُ رَأْسُهُ مَاءً فَقُلْتُ: مَنْ هَذَا؟ فَقَالُوا: ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ، فَذَهَبْتُ أَلْتَفِتُ، فَإِذَا رَجُلٌ أَحْمَرُ جَسِيمٌ، جَعْدُ الرَّاْسِ، أَعْوَرُ عَيْنِهِ الْيُمْنَى، كَأَنَّ عَيْنَهُ عِنَبَةٌ طَافِيَةٌ، قُلْتُ: مَنْ هَذَا؟ قَالُو: الدَّجَّالُ، وَأَقْرَبُ النَّاسِ بِهِ شَبَهًا ابْنُ قَطَن� (While I was asleep circumambulating the Ka`bah (in my dream), I suddenly saw a man of brown complexion and ample hair walking between two men with water dripping from his head. I asked, `Who is this' The people said, `He is the son of Maryam.' Then I looked behind and I saw a red-complexioned, fat, curly-haired man, blind in the right eye, which looked like a bulging out grape. I asked, `Who is this' They replied, `He is Ad-Dajjal.' The person he most resembled is Ibn Qatan.)'' Az-Zuhri commented that Ibn Qatan was a man from the tribe of Khuza`ah who died during the time of Jahiliyyah. This is the wording of Al-Bukhari. Allah's statement, [وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَـمَةِ يَكُونُ عَلَيْهِمْ شَهِيداً] (And on the Day of Resurrection, he (`Isa) will be a witness against them) Qatadah said, "He will bear witness before them that he has delivered the Message from Allah and that he is but a servant of His.'' In a similar statement in the end of Surat Al-Ma'idah, [وَإِذْ قَالَ اللَّهُ يعِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ أَءَنتَ قُلتَ لِلنَّاسِ] (And (remember) when Allah will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O `Isa, son of Maryam! Did you say unto men...'') until, [العَزِيزُ الحَكِيمُ] (Almighty, the All-Wise.) [فَبِظُلْمٍ مِّنَ الَّذِينَ هَادُواْ حَرَّمْنَا عَلَيْهِمْ طَيِّبَـتٍ أُحِلَّتْ لَهُمْ وَبِصَدِّهِمْ عَن سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ كَثِيراً - وَأَخْذِهِمُ الرِّبَا وَقَدْ نُهُواْ عَنْهُ وَأَكْلِهِمْ أَمْوَلَ النَّاسِ بِالْبَـطِلِ وَأَعْتَدْنَا لِلْكَـفِرِينَ مِنْهُمْ عَذَاباً أَلِيماً - لَّـكِنِ الرَّاسِخُونَ فِى الْعِلْمِ مِنْهُمْ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِمَآ أُنزِلَ إِلَيكَ وَمَآ أُنزِلَ مِن قَبْلِكَ وَالْمُقِيمِينَ الصَّلَوةَ وَالْمُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَوةَ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الاٌّخِرِ أُوْلَـئِكَ سَنُؤْتِيهِمْ أَجْراً عَظِيماً ] (160. For the wrongdoing of the Jews, We
made unlawful for them certain good foods which had been lawful for
themـand for their hindering many from Allah's way;) (161. And their
taking of Riba though they were forbidden from taking it, and their
devouring men's substance wrongfully. And We have prepared for the
disbelievers among them a painful torment.) (162. But those among them
who are well-grounded in knowledge, and the believers, believe in what
has been sent down to you and what was sent down before you; and those
who perform the Salah, and give Zakah and believe in Allah and in the
Last Day, it is they to whom We shall give a great reward.)( http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=4&tid=12730 - Source Tafssir by Ibn Kathir) |
Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 05 October 2008 at 6:45pm
Breaking the cross refers to refuting the invented story of Jesus�s crucifixion and resurrection. Killing the pig means prohibiting its meat again, as in Islam and in the original Law of Moses. |
Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 05 October 2008 at 10:39pm
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Good job Mansoor. The way minuteman and H3OO interpret Quranic verses only show their desperation to defend a false belief. Going by their interpretation of 4:159 - ["And there is none among the people of the Book but will believe in it (it; refers to being crucified) before his (it may be people of book and not jesus) death and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them." (4:159) It means every one of the Jews and the christians will keep on believing that Jesus was killed or died on the cross (and this is true) till the end of their life (till their death). It also proves that Jesus himself will never come back again in this world.]
First, People of the Book means every people given a Scripture from Allah, us included. Second, the "his" in bold which was interpreted as the people of the book and not Isa (a.s) is masculine. That very well implies that the woman among the People of the Book are not bound to believe in "it" (interpreted as crucifiction). Given the continuity in the verse "he" (from - he will be a witness) will only mean 'the men from among the People of the Book'.
What a major mess up! ------------- 'Trust everyone but not the devil in them' |
Posted By: H3OO
Date Posted: 05 October 2008 at 11:33pm
| plz read the 1st post of page 10 |
Posted By: H3OO
Date Posted: 05 October 2008 at 11:52pm
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over here many times it is mentioned; son of Maryam (`Isa) descends(nazool) among you How can one take meaning of descend as physically from the heavens. here is a proof from quran that nazool/Nazala which means descend doesnt mean physically from the heavens/fallen from the skies. Quran states: Allah has indeed sent down to you a Reminder, a Messenger, who recites unto you the clear signs of Allah." (65:11-12) But does any one say that the Holy Prophet[sa] came down from the heavens physically. ofcourse not. We have surely sent down to you the book comprising the truth...4/105 Did the book fell from the sky? 'Then Allah sent down His peace upon His messenger.'21 And We sent down iron, wherein is material for violent warfare and many benefits for mankind and that Allah may distinguish those who help Him and His Messengers without having seen Him. Surely, Allah is Powerful, Mighty.'26 'We have indeed sent down raiment to you to cover your shame, and to be an elegant dress;...24 And He has sent down eight head of cattle in pairs.'39:6' so is the meaning of descend in all the above verses taken as fallen from the skies physically? ofcourse not, then why in case of ibn maryam? so the meaning of descend and tawaffa has now been cleared from quran. and Plz read my interpretation of 4:159 again and i have pretty clearly stated as to how ur interpretation can not be right and explanation that ive given there, is pretty clear and make sense. |
Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 06 October 2008 at 12:15am
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Minuteman and H3OO,
You both claim that, just because the interpretation for "tawaffa" is 'taking the soul in death' in atleast 20 verses, you conclude that they can be interpreted (as you wish) as death, when "night or sleep" is not mentioned.
The interpretation for "tawaffa" has been given in the Quran by Allah very clearly in
Ergo, to interpret "tawaffa" in a verse, the occasion or the following action should be considered. Below are the verses in which "tawaffa" has been interpreted as 'taking the soul in death'. From the ocassion and the actions in these verses, the interpretation was obvious.
3/193 ...AAannasayyi-atina watawaffana maAAa al-abrari .... Forgive us our sins, blot out from us our iniquities, and take to Thyself our souls in the company of the righteous. Its obvious. In sleep, souls are not taken in the company of the righteous alone. Plus, this is an invocation for mercy, making it even clear. Tawaffa here can only be interpreted as death.
4/15 ...albuyooti hattayatawaffahunna almawtu aw yajAAala Allahu lahunnasabeelan ...confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way The first injuction regarding zina, which was amended later. Very obvious; cant be interpreted as "until sleep".
4/97 Inna allatheena tawaffahumualmala-ikatu thalimee.... When angels take the souls of those who die in sin against their souls, .... The complete verse makes it very clear that 'tawaffa' can only be interpreted as death. The angels of death taking the soul 2/234 Waallatheena yutawaffawnaminkum wayatharoona azwajan yatarabbasnabi-anfusihinna... And [as for] those of u who die and leave wives behind, these shall wait..... Wives have to wait the Iddat period if husband dies.
2/240 Waallatheena yutawaffawnaminkum wayatharoona azwajan wasiyyatanli-azwajihim ... and those of u who die and leave wives behind shall bequeath to their wives..... Very obvious here too.
6/61 ...almawtu tawaffat-hurusuluna wahum la yufarritoona ...At length, when death approaches one of you, Our angels take his soul, and they never fail in their duty. "al mawtu". Death mentioned.
7/37 ...alkitabi hatta itha jaat-humrusuluna yatawaffawnahum qaloo... ...until, when our messengers (of death) arrive and take their souls, ... Reading the whole verse, tawaffa here cannot be interpreted as sleep.
7/126 ...AAalaynasabran watawaffana muslimeena. ...pour out on us patience and constancy, and take our souls unto thee as Muslims The wizards of Firaun made this invocation.Take our souls as Muslims. Obviously in death.
8/50 Walaw tara ith yatawaffaallatheena kafaroo ... If thou couldst see, when the angels take the souls of the Unbelievers (at death) Read the whole verse....blazing fire. Very obvious.
10/46 ...naAAiduhum aw natawaffayannaka fa-ilaynamarjiAAuhum thumma Allahu shaheedun AAala mayafAAaloona. some part of what We promise them,- or We take thy soul (to Our Mercy) (Before that),- in any case, to Us is their return: ultimately Allah is witness, to all that they do ....Unto us is their return. Death.
10/104 ...Allahaallathee yatawaffakum waomirtu an akoona minaalmu/mineena But I worship Allah - Who will take your souls (at death): I am commanded to be (in the ranks) of the Believers. Read whole verse. Obvious.
12/101 ...alddunyawaal-akhirati tawaffanee musliman waalhiqneebialssaliheena ...Take Thou my soul (at death) as one submitting to Thy will (as a Muslim), and unite me with the righteous." Obviously death.
13/40 Wa-in ma nuriyannaka baAAdaallathee naAAiduhum aw natawaffayannaka fa-innamaAAalayka albalaghu waAAalayna alhisabu Whether We shall show thee (within thy life-time) part of what we promised them or take to ourselves thy soul (before it is all accomplished),- thy duty is to make (the Message) reach them: it is our part to call them to account. Obvious.
16/28 Allatheena tatawaffahumu almala-ikatuthalimee anfusihim... "(Namely) those whose lives the angels take in a state of wrong-doing to their own souls." Then would they offer submission (with the pretence), "We did no evil (knowingly)." (The angels will reply), "Nay, but verily Allah knoweth all that ye did; Obvious.
16/70 WaAllahu khalaqakum thummayatawaffakum waminkum man yuraddu ila... It is Allah who creates you and takes your souls at death;... Obvious.
22/5 ...man yutawaffawaminkum man yuraddu ila arthali ... ...that ye may reach your age of full strength; and some of you are called to die... Obvious.
32/11 Qul yatawaffakum malaku almawti allatheewukkila bikum thumma ila rabbikum turjaAAoona. Say: "The Angel of Death, put in charge of you, will (duly) take your souls: then shall ye be brought back to your Lord." Malak al mawt takes soul in death.
40/67 ...o shuyookhan waminkum man yutawaffa min qabluwalitablughoo... ...reach your age of full strength; then lets you become old,- though of you there are some who die before... Obvious.
40/77 ...aw natawaffayannaka fa-ilayna yurjaAAoona ...We show thee (in this life) some part of what We promise them,- or We take thy soul (to Our Mercy) (before that),-(in any case) it is to Us that they shall (all) return. Obvious.
47/27 Fakayfa itha tawaffat-humu almala-ikatuyadriboona wujoohahum waadbarahum But how (will it be) when the angels take their souls at death, and smite their faces and their backs? Obvious. ------------- 'Trust everyone but not the devil in them' |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 06 October 2008 at 4:00am
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Saladin, your point is not understood. I believe that The soul is taken away at two times:
1. When a person sleeps (that is a temporary taking away).
2. When a person dies (That is permanent taking away).
In both cases only the soul is taken away and the body is left where ever it is.
You have presented maximum verses with your good remarks. Will you kindly explain your idea of the word Tawaffa as used in the Quran. Please. ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 06 October 2008 at 4:39am
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Maybe 'break the cross' means breaking the 'power of death' ?
Why would Jesus break the cross, the beliefs of Christians - when those beliefs are to follow Christ - to take up the cross and follow Jesus.
To follow Jesus to and through the cross is to submit utterly to the will of God, even to 'death on a cross' - 'death to self' that the will of God be fulfilled in life, done on earth as it is in Heaven - and the Kingdom of God truly begin to reign in this world.
I don't understand why Isa/Jesus would destroy what it means, should mean, to be a 'true Muslim' ?
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Posted By: H3OO
Date Posted: 06 October 2008 at 5:31am
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as to ur saying that the pronoun His is masculine in my interpretation. Quran says: And whoso does evil or wrongs his soul....4/110 and whoso commits a sin, commits it only against his won soul...4/111 ....He shall find for himself no friend or helper besides Allah4/123 And whoso opposes the Massenger after guidance has become manifest to him...4/115 If u see, Allah used pronouns his/him and also noun He in above verses but does that means that it only applies to men and not women? Plz answer this saladin. ofcourse not and in most places in Quran, Allah has addressed us, whether male or female, by using pronoun his/him or using Noun He and it means both male and female though the pronoun or noun is saying only male. I hope this will clarify the problem and plz now again read my interpretation of verse 159 on page 8 and im sure it will sound more realistic now after this clarification and over there i have clearly stated as to how ur translation dont makes much sense. and also their is no where mentioned in holy quran that Jesus will physically come down to earth from the heavens. descend is used in hadith and im sure its meaning has been cleared in my previous post. and relating to tawaffa, its clear where soul is taken during sleep or night, these words are clearly mentioned and where as in other cases, death is taken as meaning and so its not about being obvious or not obvious. but even if there are still problems relating to this word, then there are many other things that i have proved that goes in favour of jesus not be physically raised. and again remember God will never break his law of nature, go against our logic, his rules to save any one and that is why he saved prophet[sa] from within the rules of this word. |
Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 06 October 2008 at 8:38am
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My dear members, i don't know, why you are discussing with this person, who once while discussing the sunnah of beard said "he shall grow a beard only when his wife says" ------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent." |
Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 06 October 2008 at 9:22am
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My last reply Seeks.
Saladin, your point is not understood. I believe that The soul is taken away at two times:
1. When a person sleeps (that is a temporary taking away).
2. When a person dies (That is permanent taking away).
In both cases only the soul is taken away and the body is left where ever it is.
You have presented maximum verses with your good remarks. Will you kindly explain your idea of the word Tawaffa as used in the Quran. Please.
Like I've always maintained in my posts, the interpretation of tawaffa is given by Allah in 39:42. The verses where 'tawaffa' have no given interpretation, the verse in the whole along with the actions and occasions described should be considered to make the interpretation. Like I pointed out in my previous post all the verses where tawaffa had been interpretated as 'taking the soul in death', one way or another indicated 'death', whereas in 3:55 and 5:117 there's no indication of death. With hadith also supporting the fact that Isa (a.s) did not die, the Quranic scholars interpretated 'tawaffa' in 3:55 and 5:117 as 'taking the soul'- in sleep not death.
My previous post was in response to your claim; that since tawaffa is interpretated as 'death' in not less than 23 verses and only twice as 'sleep'; 'tawaffa' in 3:55 and 5:117 should be considered as death, which is wrong.
3:55 Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself.....
Allah took the soul of Isa (a.s) in sleep and raised his body to Himself.
------------- 'Trust everyone but not the devil in them' |
Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 06 October 2008 at 11:24am
(4:159) There are none among the People of the Book but will believe in him before his death, *196 and he will be a witness against them on the Day of Resurrection. *197 Commentary By Maulana Maududi *196. The death mentioned here could refer either to the death of Jesus or to the death of each and every person among 'the People of the Book'. The text lends itself to both meanings. We have adopted the first in our translation. If we accept the alternative meaning, the verse would mean: "There is no one among the People of the Book who, before his death, will not believe in Jesus.' The expression, 'People of the Book' here refers to the Jews and possibly even to the Christians. In the light of this latter meaning, the purpose of the verse would be to affirm that at the time when the physical death of Jesus takes place, all the living 'People of the Book' would have come to believe in him (i.e. in his prophethood). Alternatively, the verse would mean that the prophethood of Jesus will become manifest to every person among the People of the Book just before he dies so that they will believe in him, but at a time when believing would be of no avail. Both these views have been supported by several Companions, Successors and outstanding scholars of Qur'anic exegesis. The truth of the matter is best known to God alone. *197. This means that on the Day of Judgement Jesus will stand in the court of the Almighty and testify to the treatment meted out to him and to the message he brought. (For the nature of this testimony see Surah al-Ma'idah 5: 109 ff. below.) ( http://www.tafheem.net/main.html - Source ) |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 06 October 2008 at 12:33pm
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Thanks Saladin. You say that Jesus was taken up when sleeping and that his soul was not captured due to death. I hope that is what you mean. According to you, Tawaffa for Jesus means sleep and not death. i.e. in verse 3:55 and 5:117.
I hope I am right in understanding you. If I am wrong then please tell me. And thank you for explaining. ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |