Hello Friends!!!

I am posting this post for those who want to understand Hinduism.

Its waste of talking about Hinduism, without considering the core of it.  The core of Hinduism is the concept of the Absolute, Brahman. 

Brahman is one of the most important concepts in Hinduism, signifying ultimate reality. Brahman is absolute, eternal ineffable and impersonal. Literally, the term means "the ever growing."

It is also identified with atman, and so is frequently referred to as Brahman-Atman - the soul of the entire universe. Frequently, all Hindu gods are assimilated into Brahman-Atman and regarded simply as personal manifestations of an impersonal force.

Within the Brahman Hindus have identified a sort of "trinity" of forces or aspects: Brahma, Shiva and Vishnu. Brahma is the creative force, Shiva is the destructive force and Vishnu is the protective force.

The Concept of Brahman

Let us look at what Hinduism holds to be the Absolute. The ultimate goal and Absolute of Hinduism is termed "Brahman" in Sanskrit. The word comes from the Sanskrit verb root brh, meaning "to grow". Etymologically, the term means "that which grows" (brhati) and "which causes to grow" (brhmayati).

Brahman is not "God"
Brahman, as understood by the scriptures of Hinduism, as well as by the 'acharyas'(preceptors) of the Vedanta school, is a very specific conception of the Absolute. This unique conception has not been replicated by any other religion on earth, and is exclusive to Hinduism. Thus to even call this conception of Brahman "God" is, in a sense, somewhat imprecise. This is the case because Brahman does not refer to the anthropomorphic concept of God of the Abrahamic religions. When we speak of Brahman, we are referring neither to the "old man in the sky" concept, nor to the idea of the Absolute as even capable of being vengeful, fearful or engaging in choosing a favorite people from among His creatures. For that matter, Brahman is not a "He" at all, but rather transcends all empirically discernable categories, limitations and dualities.

What is Brahman?
In the 'Taittariya Upanishad' II.1, Brahman is described in the following manner: "satyam jnanam anantam brahman", "Brahman is of the nature of truth, knowledge and infinity." Infinite positive qualities and states have their existence secured solely by virtue of Brahman's very reality. Brahman is a necessary reality, eternal (i.e., beyond the purview of temporality), fully independent, non-contingent, and the source and ground of all things. Brahman is both immanently present in the realm of materiality, interpenetrating the whole of reality as the sustaining essence that gives it structure, meaning and existential being, yet Brahman is simultaneously the transcendent origin of all things (thus, panentheistic).

The Nature of Brahman
As the primary causal substance of material reality (jagatkarana), Brahman does not arbitrarily will the coming into being of the non-Brahman metaphysical principles of matter and jivas (individuated consciousness), but rather they are manifest into being as a natural result of the overflowing of Brahman's grandeur, beauty, bliss and love. Brahman cannot but create abundant good in a similar manner to how Brahman cannot but exist. Both existence and overflowing abundance are as much necessary properties of Brahman as love and nurturing are necessary qualities of any virtuous and loving mother.

Brahman is the Source
One can say that Brahman Itself (Him/Herself) constitutes the essential building material of all reality, being the antecedent primeval ontological substance from whence all things proceed. There is no ex nihilo creation in Hinduism. Brahman does not create from nothing, but from the reality of Its own being. Thus Brahman is, in Aristotelian terms, both the Material Cause as well as the Efficient Cause of creation.

The Final Goal & the Final Cause
As the source of Dharma, the metaphysical ordering principles inherent in the design of the cosmos, Brahman can be viewed as the Formal Cause. And as the final goal of all reality, Brahman is also the Final Cause. Being the ontological source of all reality, Brahman is the only substantial real that truly exists, all other metaphysical categories being either a) contingent transformations of Brahman, having their very being subsisting in attributive dependence upon Brahman, or else b) illusory in nature. These views about the nature of Brahman are in general keeping with the theological teachings of both the Advaita and the Vishishta-Advaita schools of Hinduism.

Brahman is the Ultimate Reality
All reality has its source in Brahman. All reality has its grounding sustenance in Brahman. It is in Brahman that all reality has its ultimate repose. Hinduism, specifically, is consciously and exclusively aiming toward this reality termed Brahman.

Thus, Brahman is the signifying name given to the concept of the unchanging, infinite, immanent and transcendent reality that is the Divine Ground of all being.

Let me quote one of our Upanishads,

"Om. That supreme Brahman is infinite, and this conditioned Brahman is infinite. The infinite proceeds from infinite. Then through knowledge, realizing the infinitude of the infinite, it remains as infinite alone." --- Mandukya Upanishad

This is a very beautiful verse.  It contains everything.  Its very complex yet very simple.

Another verse from one of our Vedas,

"Great indeed are the Gods who have sprung out of Brahman." --- Atharva Veda

Thus you can see that though Hinduism is called a polytheistic religion, It actually preaches monism.

And some points to remember,

1. Brahman is the Hindu idea of transcendental and immanent Divine Ground of which all cosmic existence is a self-projection.

2. Brahma is the Hindu Creator God.

3. Brahmin refers to a Hindu priest.

Now the question asked by many is,"Then why don't Hindus worship Brahman?  Why do they worship gods?"

The answer is simple if you understand the above written passage.

Assalaamu alaikum ya muslimeen.

Greetings and good day to all.

Thankyou for sharing this with us, to help us understand the standpoint or viewpoint of the hindu ahderants.

I have some questions, but will begin with only one for now...and it had struck my mind earlier, but even more so now, in light of the explanation you have given of some spellings here.

What does your name mean? 'bharatiya'??

Will continue with the rest of my questions/comments a bit later, inshaAllah.

balqees.

Salaam To:All

If we want to have a mutual understanding, then I would encourage 'thinking-muslims' to step out of their muslim mindset and understand the concepts from an Indian stand point.

Similar stance should be adopted by baratiya, to momentarily suspend his concept of Brahman and understand the concept of 'Tawheed' from Islamic stand point.

Muslims must familirise them with Philosophical and Theological concepts stated by Baratiya i.e such as transcedence and immanance

For muslims, literal approach to Quran will not be enough to expound the concept of ' Tawheed'.

Hopefully I will contirbute towards this concept later.

Regards

Fuhad

bharatiya wrote: ............   Thus, Brahman is the signifying name given to the concept of the unchanging, infinite, immanent and transcendent reality that is the Divine Ground of all being. Let me quote one of our Upanishads, "Om. That supreme Brahman is infinite, and this conditioned Brahman is infinite. The infinite proceeds from infinite. Then through knowledge, realizing the infinitude of the infinite, it remains as infinite alone." --- Mandukya Upanishad This is a very beautiful verse.  It contains everything.  Its very complex yet very simple.

It is with this definition (infinite alone) that I may agree with you. It is as simple as it could be.

Another verse from one of our Vedas, "Great indeed are the Gods who have sprung out of Brahman." --- Atharva Veda Thus you can see that though Hinduism is called a polytheistic religion, It actually preaches monism.

I think it is this interpretation of "Gods who have sprung out of Brahman" that makes it polytheistic oriented. Isn't it? And hence forth all your definitions starts to change especially once trying to define Brahma against Brahman.

And some points to remember, 1. Brahman is the Hindu idea of transcendental and immanent Divine Ground of which all cosmic existence is a self-projection. 2. Brahma is the Hindu Creator God...........

You have simply provided all the paras of theo-philosophy to explain Brahman, what about Brahma? and how do you say "the Hindu Creator God"? What philosophy, what reasons, etc???

3. Brahmin refers to a Hindu priest. Now the question asked by many is,"Then why don't Hindus worship Brahman?  Why do they worship gods?" The answer is simple if you understand the above written passage. Peace and Love.

Yes, I could see the line of reasoning where, Brahman, Brahma, and Brahmin so closely resembles to each other especially in their hierarchy and sequence of order they appear to influence people. Meaning thereby, that no one can or should not approach Brahman as it (he/she) is way too far from human understanding (yet we have seen so much about it, philosophically say). However, we should only look at the Gods (who sprung out of Brahman) through Brahmin only??? What a wonderfull hypothesis by the people with specific agenda of ruling over the masses (remember exploitation)? It is here that we must ask for authenticity of the derived doctrine of Hinduism. May Brahman or Allah give us the right guidance to distinguish between the right and wrong. Amen.  

Salaam To: Bharatiya

Here is an explanation on Concept of God from one of the most celebrated scholar of Islam. You can equate him to be the 'Sankara' of Islam.

Hope you will enjoy reading it.

Regards

Fuhad

Allah

                                Both Transcedent and Immanent

Tawheed

In order to provide a better understanding of Islamic Tawheed, we have provided a description of Allah and some of His attributes as it appears in a famous, classical text of Islamic knowledge. The following is an original translation of excerpts from Revival of the Religious Sciences by Imam Abu Hamid al-Ghazali [1][1]10:

He is Living, Almighty, Irresistible, Overpowering; deficiency does not affect Him nor does incapacity. �No slumber can seize Him nor sleep.�[2]11 Extinction and death do not counteract Him. He is possessed of absolute dominion, sovereignty, and grandeur; to Him is creation and command.

He is Magnanimous in creating and in imposing obligations upon His creation; He is not compelled to do it by necessity. He is Gracious in beneficence and reform, though not through any need. Munificence and Kindness, Beneficence and Grace are His. He rewards His believing worshipers for their acts of obedience according to generosity and encouragement rather than according to their merit and obligation, for there is no obligation upon Him in any deed towards anyone. Tyranny is inconceivable in Him, for there is no right upon Him towards anyone.[3]12

AhmadJoyia wrote: I think it is this interpretation of "Gods who have sprung out of Brahman" that makes it polytheistic oriented. Isn't it? And hence forth all your definitions starts to change especially once trying to define Brahma against Brahman.

Well, if you want to call it a polytheistic religion, so be it.

And concept of Brahma is a complete different one.  The concept of Brahma does not come immediately after we study the concept of Brahman.  It is, sometimes, not considered at all.

You have simply provided all the paras of theo-philosophy to explain Brahman, what about Brahma? and how do you say "the Hindu Creator God"? What philosophy, what reasons, etc???

It needs a thorough understanding of Brahman, to understand Brahma.

Yes, I could see the line of reasoning where, Brahman, Brahma, and Brahmin so closely resembles to each other especially in their hierarchy and sequence of order they appear to influence people.

What hierarchy do you mean?  I numbered them as points, not as a hierarchy.

Meaning thereby, that no one can or should not approach Brahman as it (he/she) is way too far from human understanding (yet we have seen so much about it, philosophically say).

LOL...Who said that?  What a conclusion to make!

However, we should only look at the Gods (who sprung out of Brahman) through Brahmin only???

Oh my God!  Hope you are not a scientist.  Meaningless assumptions give rise to meaningless conclusions.

What a wonderfull hypothesis by the people with specific agenda of ruling over the masses (remember exploitation)?

The hypothesis are being made by you my dear.  
There was no 'exploitation'  the way you think.

It is here that we must ask for authenticity of the derived doctrine of Hinduism.

No, not again.

Salaam

Bharatiya

I have already adopted such a stance.  I need not again.  I know what you mean by Allah. I find this site to be more helpful for them who do not know the meaning of Allah. http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/tawheed/conceptofgod.html - http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/tawheed/conceptofgo d.html Peace and Love.

Its encouraging to read your comments, with regards to the stance you had taken. I feel it may be difficult for some muslims.

Can you inivite more people on this forum from India and eslewhere

I like the link, however this article does not explain the Transcedent and Immanence concepts and therefore I posted the 'Tawheed' article.

Note the above link is from WAMY so in there explanation there is a bend towards literalism and less emphasis on Pilosophical and Theological aspects,you would have noticed it.

Regards

Fuhad

Fuhad wrote: Can you inivite more people on this forum from India and eslewhere

Well, as you yourself know, not all will be willing to talk about Islam.  Most of the Indians have a general ill-feeling towards Islam (though they show it off openly) as Muslims in the past have killed and destroyed their ancestors and temples.

I like the link, however this article does not explain the Transcedent and Immanence concepts and therefore I posted the 'Tawheed' article.

I know that every religion preaches the same truth.  And thank you for posting about Tawheed.

Note the above link is from WAMY so in there explanation there is a bend towards literalism and less emphasis on Pilosophical and Theological aspects,you would have noticed it.

I chose it because it has lesser technical terms and can be understood easily.  I have lots of other links about Islam and Allah(and even links to blashphemy towards Hinduism).

Hinduism is a man-made religion. It was designed to oppress the  lower caste Hindus to the maximum by the uppper cate Hindus. Various quaint "concepts" of the God were utilised to justify the polytheism which made approach to God indirect (i.e various corrupt intercessors and preists became important to the Hindus).

From what I know of ancient Hindu scripture and Arya Samaj ideology, Hinduism probably started as a monotheism. But once the corruption sets in, polytheism was used to justify it.

Assalaamu alaikum ya muslimeen.

Greetings and good day to all.

Surely, I wish that such discussions would not take the trend towards such hard feelings between the participants. This is only one small example of why out there in the real world and face to face, there is so much sadness and intolerance and oppression and eventually torture and/or killing of one another.

We are all different, have our different backgrounds, and our different beliefs...and we should try to understand one another to better live side by side.

As a reminder for muslims participating in inter-religious debates and discussions...it is highly important to keep tolerant of those whose beliefs differ from you, and remember not to insult the other's belief. We have been warned of this in the Quran, actually. Remember that human nature is kind of like a mirror. You most generally receive back what you have already dished out to others.

Now...for the questions that Bharatiya has set forth...will try to answer them.

1. As regarding the rights of men and women...could you please quote from where you are claiming that the Quran does not give equal rights to women? Remember that God has created man and woman in their own rite of nature. Each one different biologically and physically. Yet they are equally responsible in the spiritual nature to God. And they receive equal treatment in the judgement.

2. The divisions that have evolved within Islam is the fault of the individual persons (in collection). It is not of the essence of Islam to have such divisions. In fact, this is something that we are also warned against in the Quran: dividing into sects. That does not reflect on Islam to deem it imperfect. Rather, it is reflection on the imperfection of humans to implement Islam properly. Islam and muslims are 2 different entities. Please do not confuse the 2. Islam is perfect. Whereas muslims themselves are far from perfect. Judge Islam by it's source, not it's adherants.

3. As concerns Bangaladeshis, I have never heard of this reference or inference that they have been considered not real muslims. Perhaps this is something of a local (Indian/Pakistani/Bagali/Kashmiri,etc.) misinterpretation and misunderstanding of true Islamic teachings. I mean, Islam teaches us (as it is stated in the Quran)...that one is not to be judged upon his/her merits other than what is in his/her heart. In other words, it is the extense of pious belief that renders one a true muslim. Not their race, country of origin, sex, age, whatever. None of that matters. What matters is what is in the heart-the extent of the sincerity and piety. And this, my friends, is in full knowledge to God. It cannot be hidden from Him.

Bharatiya: I can sense that you come from a region where there is much strife and you or those around you have suffered much at the hands of oppressing muslims. This is terribly sad, for it leaves with one a terrible impression and misunderstanding of Islam.

And the sad state of the Indian region is that it is a rising spiral type of situation of violence and hatred and intolerance between the muslims and others (mainly hindus, I believe)...to the extent that it is difficult to truly know anymore who started what.

As the hindus and other non-muslims may have suffered greatly from the muslims, so the muslims also have suffered greatly from the non-muslims. Like I said...a rising spiral.

If only each of the groups could begin to understand one another, perhaps an atmosphere of tolerance can begin to grow.

My friend, Islam is truly beautiful and calls for the utmost of tolerance. Something which, I am afraid, is becoming even less and less in this day and age.

Much as I am sure that you will also stress with us that hinduism is also beautiful. Then...why not let us each show the beautiful side to one another?

But I hope that with forums such as this one, we can achieve some sense of tolerance and understanding between us all, so that we may all live in peace with one another.

balqees.

I think you should tell this to the Indian Historians.  But I think they will not listen to an ISI agent like you.

That is funny.  ISI agents are atleast better than RSS guys.

Assalaamu alaikum ya muslimeen.

Greetings and good day.

Bharatiya: Like I said...do not look to muslims actually to judge Islam.

I mean...Islam is surely the perfect religion. As it is stated in the Quran...that Allah has perfected his religion for us, and completed it, and named it 'islam' (i.e. submission to Him).

Yet so sadly...thru the ages...not all muslims have truly applied it in real life.

And the situation seems to diminish thru time...that the muslims themselves are not fully understanding the rulings of Islam, hence they are not implicating it (i.e. infringing on the rights of others, for instance).

Historically, women throughout the world in all nations and all societies have been the major brunt of oppression. It is nothing new. Basically because of their nature of creation that they are the weaker (most generally) of the two sexes.

Islam has set up rules and methods for all to interact with one another. Guaranteeing the rights of all.

Yet some muslims even today tend to ignore all of those rulings and methods.

They only do so to their own demise. For those who would reject knowingly the laws of Allah, they will face dire punishment.

And those who fear Allah and uphold His laws, will find gracious reward indeed.

balqees.

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,

bharatiya wrote: I feel that Muslims are like virus.  They migrate to a place(many a times invade), multiply, and when their population becomes sizeable, they  either make it an Islamic Republic or ask for separation from the mainland.  This is not out of my hatred towards Muslims or anything.  I can substantiate my claim. For example, division of Bharat into Pakistan and India

If you are saying that Muslims caused the partition of India and pakistan, you either do not know the history of partition, or you do not want to acknowledge it even after knowing it!

Muslims did not demand to make India into an Islamic republic ever! India was ruled by muslims since the slave dynasty, where the muslim rulers acknowledge and allowed the rites the majority hindu polpulation at large. Altmush, Qutub uddin Aibaq, All mughal rulers (with the exception of Aurengzeb), Sher shah suri, Tipu Sultan .... their dyanasties were spread out over 500yrs. Did they make India an Islamic Republic?

When some of the muslim leaders demanded partition, did they demand it or else an islamic republic? Do you have a substantiating claim to proove that Jinnah wanted India to become an Islamic Republic if it was not divided?

And do you forget Maulana Abul Kalam Azad and Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan, who opposed partition? Or do you not want to acknowledge them as great muslim leaders of that time?

N

Salam to: Bharatiya

I am enjoying your conversation, however I feel there is deep seated sense of distrust in your views when analysing muslims ( i may be in correct but your writing style reflects this), the way you express your feelings. Do you think that since you have been reading people like Francios Gautier since your childhodd or other pro-Indian Indologist from Holland, beligium and and Germany or newly rewrittehn historical work on India, to out do the British and Muslims colonial rule, has moulded your thinking to a certain extent since your childhood. Just like some muslims view all westerns as Crusaders since the onslaught in 1015AD in Jeruselam until the present day.

In your mind there is a strong sense of viewing Islam or muslims from one side of a prism.

I have sympathy with you  because at at times muslims also take one sided views of others without getting out of their own mindset. But dont you think on the contrary people like you and me can fall into the same trap.

The muslims spreading like virus analogy is not an issue for me, if you we view this from a social sciences perspective, when adopting  'conflict approach' to islam and muslims.

looking forward to for some interseting comments from you.

Regards

Fuhad

Es_Selam'un Aleykum ve Rahmetullahi ve Berakatuh,

I am really confused on Bharatiya,with looking to his writings in the board he seems to fighting with islam and also trying to understanding it...also with looking to my conversations outside the board;he was like an muslim and respecting Islam;he was saying OUR PROPHET...i think the way of telling something to an person has an great effect on the acceptances may come from him...this is why Qur'an came in 23 years step by step so much caring the situation that persons were living in...there are so many good signs in the Qur'an for shaping our moving styles inside the persons...Allah knows the best...