nu001 wrote: The prophet Muhammed himself when he died had no idea about any Hadiths.

What do you base this on ? Where is your evidence ?

nu001 wrote: It was forbidden to write anything else the Prophet said other than the words of Quran. Actually, these hadith books recorded more than one hadiths in which the Prophet ordered the true believers not to write ANYTHING but the Quran.

Actually, some say he told the Sahabah to write and others say he told them not to write and the reason for that is that the Prophet (pbuh) did not want his Sahabah to confuse the Hadith with the Qur'an and the ones whom he allowed to write his Hadith may have been people whom the Prophet (pbuh) trusted more (they may have had a better memory) or they may have been people who did not write many Ayahs so they would not confuse them together.

But in any case a lot of Sahabah memorised the Hadith which they narrated to their students and it was during the time of Omar ibn Abdul-Aziz that the students of the Sahabah started to write down the Hadith as it was no longer a danger that they would be confused with the Qur'an.

This was not 200, but 100 years after the time of prophet Mohammad (pbuh).

But later some scholars started to collect these narrations from different people and put them all into a book, and so books were written that had tens of thousands of ahaadith (many of which were unauthentic).

So then came Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim and others who tried to seperate the authentic Hadith from the unauthentic by studying their chains of narration.

nu001 wrote: To understand the reason the hadiths we have today that were attributed to our beloved prophet Muhammed have been so vastly corrupted, I will have to remind you with the "Chinese Whispers". Please try passing 3 lines to 5 people one by one; it will get distorted in 10 mins time.

The sayings of the Prophet (pbuh) were important and dear to many of the believers. Although some did forget or confuse them, those with better faith and better memory did not.

nu001 wrote: Many of the narrators of the hadith may have been honest people, but how accurate can a story be narrated across over 210 years and by 6 to 10 different men in a chain????

The early Hadith books (many of which still exist) have only 3 or 4 people in their chains while books like Bukhari have 4 or 5 (and most of Bukhari's ahadith can be found in earlier books with shorter chains).

When you have only around 4 trustworthy people in the chain it is highly likely that the Hadith is accurate.

nu001 wrote: We should not be surprised to see God clearly telling us in the Quran to follow NO OTHER HADITH but the Quran. "Which Hadith, other than this (Quran), do they uphold?" 77:50 "These are Allah's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than Allah and His revelations do they believe?" 45:6

Youre using a very illogical arguement here because the Arabic word HADITH means SAYING (intresting how you translated the whole Ayah but not this word!).

So by your logic I should not believe YOUR SAYINGS either. So we should all ignore your post and all other posts and Only read the Qur'an and we should never listen to anyone or read any books other than the Qur'an! When you mistranslate verses and take them out of context you are infact one of those mentioned in Surah aal-Umran ayah 7:

He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.

nu001 wrote: Bible, Tawrah everything contains some truth; Like hadith might also have something right; so why not follow bible & tawrah as well?

Because the Hadith were narrated by the same Muslims who compiled the Qur'an and because the Hadith have chains of narration which allows us to distinguish between the authentic and unauthentic.

nu001 wrote: After knowing these, isn't it a grave sin to say that Allah didnt tell everything in Quran and we need Human fabrications like Hadith?

Where does the Qur'an say that EVERYTHING is in it ? You mean we dont need books on Biology, Maths, Geography, ... and that instead we should only read the Qur'an ?

nu001 wrote: "Say, "If the ocean were ink for the words of my Lord, the ocean would run out, before the words of my Lord run out, even if we double the ink supply."18:109

You have completely misunderstood this Ayah. What it means is that the words of Allah would not run out, that Allah's words are not limited to the 6236 verses of the Qur'an.

If Allah wanted he could have sent down a book which had billions of verses, but then that would have been difficult for us to memorise it, or even compile or read it all. He could have told us every single thing in the whole universe but then that would have made life pointless because the purpose of life is that it is a test.

Read The history of compiling Quran. If it was not forbidden, 4 chaliphs had enough time to write it after writing the quran. If you like, check this hadith:

"Do not write down anything of me except the Quran. Whoever writes other than that should delete it" (Ahmed, Vol. 1, page 171...also Sahih Muslim)  

These are unconfirmed stories that you are telling. Prophet is very important; that's why we believe that the whole quran is Allah's word. It is joke to think that something so important if it is; prophet will not rely on sahabs rather other? Crazy

[Youre using a very illogical arguement here because the Arabic word HADITH means SAYING]  Interesting; the word you are yousing for Hadith what is that word? Hebrew? Allah knew that Hadith will come and some people will cheat like this; divert people by translating that word and make some different thing with exactly the same words 'Hadith' & 'Sunnah' what Allah exactly told to not to make. It only belongs to him.

He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.

You are very funny; this Ayat u quoted, insists you to believe Quran not sayings of Imam, so called Hadith.

Read my quotes from Quran in above post; if complete, detailed, perfect does not mean everything; you mean to say Allah forgot to say something?? (Nauzubillah) Ask any question of islam and i won't need hadith to answer you. Please read my Quotes from Quran carefully.

"Say, "If the ocean were ink for the words of my Lord, the ocean would run out, before the words of my Lord run out, even if we double the ink supply."18:109

 I did not misunderstand at all; you are misundertanding my friend; It means he has written everything in details in this Quran, what he claimed and he did not have shortage of words. No additional explanation is needed. He has completed the religion for us. Did not leave anything to be preached by any human being.

How st**id; do you think Men can write simple things and make life easy for us? Allah makes things easy and simple for us. None can do it better than him. He does not make things difficult it is men who made things difficult. See for urself; what all these Hadith books have done; only created division and confusion in Islam.

My friend; Imam Bukhari wrote the first Hadith book and He was born 198 Hzr, I gave you the dates above; pick up Bukhari or go to wikipedia or anywhere in this world to find out Bukharis life time. its over 200 years; untill then it was in the mouth of some people. May be agents of Jews; coz that's what jews did with their own religion.

Islam passed Golden times, without Hadith and started falling down wards after Hadidth started being more and more accepted by people. See the history and compare. If it was good, it would have taken us up; not down.

Please believe Allahs words not of Men

Salam

Sawat: Allah is kind with you; so you reffered this verse: Say with Allah: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.

Follow only His word

It is a fact that some of the Sahabah confused the Qur'an with the Hadith, and had it not been for the Prophet (pbuh) telling them not to write down the Hadith there may have been some serious confusion.

For example in Sahih Bukhari Ibn Abbas narrates a Hadith and then says that he is not sure wether it was a Hadith or a verse of Qur'an.

But ofcourse there are very few such examples, and the reason why is that the Prophet (pbuh) told the Sahabah not to write down his Hadith. But if as you say, the Prophet (pbuh) did not want anyone to follow his Hadith, then he wouldnt have said them !

Youre saying that the Prophet would say things to people and then say "forget about what I said" !!! ???

 That doesnt make any sense.

He simply told them not to write down the Hadith, he did not tell them not to memorise or obey his Hadith. And if you look into history you will see that after hazrat Uthman, the Caliphs and Amirs did not forbid the writing of Hadith, and this was because the Qur'an was compiled during the time of Hazrats Abu Bakr, Omar and Uthman.

Those are the limits set by Allah, and whoso obeys Allah and His Messenger, He will make him enter Gardens (in Paradise) underneath which rivers flow, to abide therein And that is the great success.  (Qur'an 4:13)

Why does the verse say obey Allah AND his messenger. Wouldnt it be enough to say "obey Allah" ? Or, "obey Allah through the messenger" ?

It says AND because on the one hand we have the words of Allah (the Quran) and on the other we have the words of the Messenger (Hadith books).

nu001 wrote: Allah knew that Hadith will come and some people will cheat like this; divert people by translating that word and make some different thing with exactly the same words 'Hadith' & 'Sunnah' what Allah exactly told to not to make. It only belongs to him.

You just dont know what youre talking about. In Arabic, HADITH means SAYING. Any SAYING is HADITH. What youre saying is also HADITH, so by your own logic we should not listen to you!

nu001 wrote: He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding. You are very funny; this Ayat u quoted, insists you to believe Quran not sayings of Imam, so called Hadith.

The verse is warning those who misquote and misinterpret the Qur'an. The 19ners (including you) do this all the time and each one of them seems to have a different interpretation from other 19ners!

nu001 wrote: Read my quotes from Quran in above post; if complete, detailed, perfect does not mean everything; you mean to say Allah forgot to say something?? (Nauzubillah) Ask any question of islam and i won't need hadith to answer you. Please read my Quotes from Quran carefully. "Say, "If the ocean were ink for the words of my Lord, the ocean would run out, before the words of my Lord run out, even if we double the ink supply."18:109  I did not misunderstand at all; you are misundertanding my friend; It means he has written everything in details in this Quran, what he claimed and he did not have shortage of words. No additional explanation is needed. He has completed the religion for us. Did not leave anything to be preached by any human being.

By your logic we would have to say that the Qur'an has never been written down ! Why ? Because even if the oceans were ink and we used them all up we could not write all the words of Allah.

Allah told us whatever He wanted to say. If you think we dont need any book other than the Qur'an, then that is not what the Qur'an is saying and that doesnt make any sense either as Im sure you have read books other than the Qur'an or else you wouldnt even be able to write in English right now!

nu001 wrote: See for urself; what all these Hadith books have done; only created division and confusion in Islam.

There are also divisions due to different interpretations of the Qur'an and intrestingly the 19ners themselves have broken up into a number of different sects even though their sect has been set ip only recently.

Infact, if you just pick two 19ners you will see they have totally different beliefs and cant agree with eachother on what the Qur'an says.

I have seen 19ners saying that it's ok to have girl friends, or that Satan is the God of this earth, and most (if not all) of them praise George Bush just because he is the 19th Republican president of the United States !!! Im not kidding, check out their official website! They even say all Muslims are disbelievers and that Jihad against Israel and USA is Forbidden and many other things which have Absolutely nothing to do with the Qur'an.

But then when we tell them they say "well this is how I understand the Qur'an "!!! They mistranslate the Qur'an to make it say what they want it to say, so much so that they say the Arabic word DABBAH (creatur/creeper) means ROBOT!!!

nu001 wrote: My friend; Imam Bukhari wrote the first Hadith book and He was born 198 Hzr,

Sawtul Khilafah wrote: It is a fact that some of the Sahabah confused the Qur'an with the Hadith, and had it not been for the Prophet (pbuh) telling them not to write down the Hadith there may have been some serious confusion.

That's what has been now !! Quran and Hadith is parallel, rathar hadith is more important to many; Quran is in the show case.

If prophets words were important; Allah would have given ways to preserve it.

Yes, I am talking about sahih hadith; You are accepting Bukhari wrote the first sahih hadith; So what's the problem with history.

Please read your post and you will understand what are you telling.

I am inviting you to Allah's words alone; there by you please Allah alone; if Allah is happy on you prophet has no reason to be unhappy.

If you believe in Only Quran; you show faith to Allah and also to Muhammad; As all of it came through mohamamd; if you believe Hadith you believe Bukhari, Shafei, Ahmed, Tirmizi........ on the writers who does not have a mandate from Allah/prophet, to make rules for religions. You read the ayats i reffered from Quran. Many Are not sahi according to the writers themselves, means known to be lie / False in plain language; can you imagine the sin of putting lie in prophets mouth? Will a good man ever do that???

think

Salam

Do you have any prove that the prophet said those?

Come on man; prophet lead the life of a normal human being; obviously was guiding people to follow the quran; If you read the Quran, you will see, that any Question he was asked; he did not answer by himself if there was no verse already on that; then ohi came from Allah. He only told to follow what Allah said in Quran.

"It (the Quran) is a revelation from the Lord of the universe. Had he (Muhammad) uttered any other teachings, We would have grabbed him by the right, and We would have severed his Wateen (Major artery of the heart), none of you could have helped him."69:43-47

I don't believe any of the men you are reffering, Every one heard from some one; there is not a single line written by those who were with prophet. They had enough time to write after the Quran was compiled. Allah did not want it to be followd.

Allah never says follow mohammad, every where follow the messenger. That only means following the messege of the messenger. You are talking about a time, when people were rejecting Allah's words, Allah needed people to follow atleast the Quran. Prophet was working hard to establish Quran.

Now the muslims have become so good that they believe the Quran so much that they are afraid to read it and put it in the shelf with respect. And listen to anyone who just reffers that mohammad said this and that and his sahaba did this and we all jump into doing it. Did it make us good muslims? Or worshipper of other human beings. rathar than Allah? Which Allah strictly forbids in Quran. Show me one Ayat which clearly says that Muhammad had even the right to make any law?

"You will find that the Sunnah of Allah is the only Sunnah" (33:62.... 35:43...48:23)
"Shall I seek other than Allah as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?� 6:114

nu001 wrote: Allah never says follow mohammad, every where follow the messenger. That only means following the messege of the messenger.

This is one of the most illogical arguements I have read in my life!!!

The Messenger of Allah was Mohammad (pbuh) and his understanding/interpretation of the Qur'an was certainly far better than yours.

Why do you think the Qur'an was taught by a Human messenger ? The Prophets not only bring books, but they also teach us how to obey them, how to implement the laws and also explain to us the verses in greater detail.

nu001 wrote: "Shall I seek other than Allah as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?� 6:114

This is what I mean when I say 19ners mistranslate the Qur'an.

The verse says:

Shall I then seek a judge other than Allah? And He it is Who has revealed to you the Book (which is) made plain; and those whom We have given the Book know that it is revealed by your Lord with truth, therefore you should not be of the disputers.

(Quran 6:114)

You also want to give the impression that the Hadith and the Qur'an are two completely different and contradictry or even opposite sources.

Hadith books are Explanations of the Quran, and any Hadith that contradicts the Qur'an is simply unacceptable as it is narrated in the Hadith books themselves (narrated from the Prophet) that we should reject any Hadith that contradicts the Qur'an.

So if you find a Hadith that Really contradicts the Qur'an, then you should leave it. But if there is an authentic Hadith that does not contradict or even fits in with the Qur'an then you should certainly obey it because it is an obligation to obey the Messenger of Allah peace be upon him.

Now a simple challenge nu001. What does this verse mean:

And when the word shall come to pass against/on them, We shall bring forth on them a creature out of the earth who shall speak to them because people did not believe in Our Ayaat with assurance. (Quran 27:82)

Hadith books are Explanations of the Quran, and any Hadith that contradicts the Qur'an is simply unacceptable as it is narrated in the Hadith books themselves (narrated from the Prophet) that we should reject any Hadith that contradicts the Qur'an.

This is absolutely incorrect, there is no such hadith which says that. Further no scholar in the history of islam has rejected a hadith after it has been authenticated even if it clearly contradicts the Quran.

ak_m_f wrote: nu001 wrote: Tell me, what is not there in Quran for which we need Hadith? how to do salah ? Also I am uncertain about camel-urine hadith; what is the wisdom behind it ?

Sorry ak_m_f for being late; was having some trouble with my computer. Quran gives us a the perfext way to say prayers. I will give you the ref of all the verses in Quran for that insha-Allah. But will take some time to get it noted, that I have marked in Quran.

For now:

Sawtul Khilafah wrote: Now a simple challenge nu001. What does this verse mean: And when the word shall come to pass against/on them, We shall bring forth on them a creature out of the earth who shall speak to them because people did not believe in Our Ayaat with assurance. (Quran 27:82)

Sawat

Your words sound like; That the Quran is Mohammad's words. Please once you read Quran remember that it's Allah speaking. So which words do you think Allah is refferring to? Quran? or the words that are made by people and you label some of them as right and some of them as wrong?

Read these three verses from Allah (Al Quran) you will understand; because Quran needs no explanation if you have faith in Allah and if Allah Guides you:

27:81    And you cannot guide the blind away from their error. You will only make hear those who believe in Our verses so they are Muslims

27:82    And when the word befalls them, We will bring forth for them a creature from the earth speaking to them, [saying] that the people were, of Our verses, not certain [in faith].

27:83    And [warn of] the Day when We will gather from every nation a company of those who deny Our signs, and they will be [driven] in rows

Remember these verses Allah sent through muhammad and Allah talks of those who were rejecting the verses of Quran. There was no existance of Hadith other than Quran.

May Allah Guide you

rami wrote: Bi ismilahir rahmanir raheem assalamu alaikum Hadith books are Explanations of the Quran, and any Hadith that contradicts the Qur'an is simply unacceptable as it is narrated in the Hadith books themselves (narrated from the Prophet) that we should reject any Hadith that contradicts the Qur'an. This is absolutely incorrect, there is no such hadith which says that. Further no scholar in the history of islam has rejected a hadith after it has been authenticated even if it clearly contradicts the Quran. The scholars seek to understand why an apparent contradiction exists, many of which have simple explanations like abrogation. Had they thrown out and rejected authenticated ahadith which "seem" to contradict the Quran the science of abrogation would not have ever existed. The Quran and hadith come from the same sources and where preserved by the same people disprove one you disprove the other. The only way a person can hold a beliefe that we should follow the Quran only 1) hasnt read the verses in Quran which clearly state we should follow the guidance of the prophet 2)  only speaks in general terms and hasnt gone to the effort of actually disproving indavidual ahadith.

"Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?" 6:114

Does anything needs explanation when it is detailed? Specially if Allah says it detail? You have never tried to understand Allah and Islam from Quran; coz you are too much bogged down with man made ambiguous words like the christians and jews with their man made books.

Please read my posts from the begining; all my evidences are from Quran. Rathaer you are talking in general without any evidence from Allah. Aren't you talking with some prior conviction in mind.Think on it and come up with your evidences against the one I have given.

Salam

"We have permitted the enemies of every prophet, human and jinn devils, to inspire in each other fancy sayings, in order to deceive" 6:112

When God ALONE is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion. But when others are mentioned beside Him, they become satisfied.- 39:45

Sawt; I don't know what are you telling about 19ners ?? can you give me some links to them so I can understand?

Listen; I am not in any Group other than the groups of Muslims. I am obedient to Allah and his Quran. What ever quran says I am happy to do that and don't need partners for that. I would request you to read the Quran and look for truth to Allah. Allah will guide you if He wishes. That gives more respect to the Prophet that his Ummah wprships only Allah none else.

Christians gave a lot of respect to Jesus by making him son and even god; did not honor him to Allah. Mohammad's job was to deliver Allahs msg; If you have believed him and accepted his msg to be coming from Allah (Quran), you have paid the highest respect to him as the messenger. Muhammad was a blessed human being of Allah to be sellected as His messenger.

Believe me these are not any groups msg i am telling u; it's what i learnt from Quran.

Alhamdulillah

Bismillahirrahmanirraheem

Assalaamualaikum

nu001, your understanding of the Quran is incorrect. The Prophet sallallahu alayhi wasallam was a practical example of how to live life as a muslim. Why didnt Allah just send the Quran down to us, why did he send a messenger ?

When Aisha radiallahu anha was asked about the character of the prophet sallallahu alayhi wasallam, she said his character was the quran.

Why does Allah stress upon obeying the Prophet so much (I dont need to repeat the verses). Allah said obey the messenger not obey the message.

"But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you [Muhammad] judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission.� [al-Nisaa� 4:65]

 ï¿½. . . (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allaah and His Messenger . . .� [al-Nisaa� 4:59]

If you were to disbelieve in hadith, how would you know about the tafsir of the quran? Do you know when surahs were revealed, under what cicumstances, etc?

Kindly tell us the meaning of this ayah and for who was it revealed? "Allaah forbids you from it [slander] and warns you not to repeat the like of it forever, if you are believers." [al-Noor 24:17]"

How do you exactly make salah ? No takbeer? no tashahhud? what do you read in qiyaam etc? What do you do regarding hajj?

Most importantly, if you do not believe in the words of the Prophet or the narrations of the sahabas, how do you believe in the fact that Quran came through them?  It is the same prophet who memorised the quran, same sahabas who memorised the quran. You trust them to pass on the quran to us, but reject the fact that they can transmit hadith? Just because the Quran says it is the truth you believe it? what proof do you have besides that?

Do you have any idea, how much effort has been put into hearing and preserving the hadith? Just because some people like Abdullah Chakralwi and the likes do not accept hadith, does not mean we must just throw away these gems from the prophet.

Do you read any books on history?

Yes you belong to a group, (ironically called) ahle quran or qurani. Even if you deny it. 

Allahu Yahdee

nu001, you said:

Read The history of compiling Quran. If it was not forbidden, 4 chaliphs had enough time to write it after writing the quran. If you like, check this hadith:

"Do not write down anything of me except the Quran. Whoever writes other than that should delete it" (Ahmed, Vol. 1, page 171...also Sahih Muslim)  

You read history? WHy? can historians not commit mistakes? And how come you quoted the hadith, aren't you not supposed to believe them?

amah wrote: nu001, you said: Read The history of compiling Quran. If it was not forbidden, 4 chaliphs had enough time to write it after writing the quran. If you like, check this hadith: "Do not write down anything of me except the Quran. Whoever writes other than that should delete it" (Ahmed, Vol. 1, page 171...also Sahih Muslim)     You read history? WHy? can historians not commit mistakes? And how come you quoted the hadith, aren't you not supposed to believe them?

Brother Amah

I have also read some of bible and other religious scriptures. I definitely read everything needed to understand the viewpoint of those who believe in History and Hadith for Guidance; For me Quran alone is enough and only guidance; that's what Quran testifies.

For those who believe that Quran is not enough; I am sure they will believe in the history & hadith to understand where they are going wrong. Just like a christian will understand a Quote from their bible to understand where they are going wrong, not the Quran.

I will be happy if you don't believe in the histories & hadith to make rules for Ibadah. I will write on your previous questions soon, insha-Allah in light of Quran, .

Meanwhile if you can please tell me what is the proof of these Hadith that these are prophet's words?

One can take the broad facts from history as general lessons related to the event. But can't draw religious laws from there, which relates to Ibadah of Allah.

Even the recent history of the world is manipulated by mankind to this extent that many are confused as to what is the fact. There are different versions of history of two world wars upto what is happenning in Iraq & Afg. Why should I turn to history for Ibadah while Allah has made it clear in Quran?

There may be some hadith which has elements of truth; but there are lies/false things mixed with it; how can that be a source of mandatory law? 

A person collecting it and telling us that this is sahih and this is not sahih, some scholars are disputing with what other is telling sahih; can that be something which can be a source of law for Ibadah? 

While everything is there in Quran, why do we need those? Prophet came with the message (Quran) from Allah and practiced it himself. I wish I was there to follow him and understand the Quran better. But unfortunately he left us and left the Quran for us as the Guidance from Allah. I am sure that the prophet didntot violet Quran and didnt make any laws beside the Quran.

Allah definitely forbids any other teaching other than Quran; And Quran is the only source of law for muslims. Mohammad didnt preach anything other than Quran. I quoted the verses in previous posts.

May Allah Guide us

amah wrote: Bismillahirrahmanirraheem Assalaamualaikum Kindly tell us the meaning of this ayah and for who was it revealed? "Allaah forbids you from it [slander] and warns you not to repeat the like of it forever, if you are believers." [al-Noor 24:17]" Allahu Yahdee

Brother Amah

I will InshaAllah answer all of your statements from Quran, except the Accusations; I told you I dont belong to any group and I am only self convinced for standing by Quran. Lets discuss and really understand the truth. I want more Question from you where you think Hadith is mandatory to understand Quran.

amah wrote: Bismillahirrahmanirraheem Assalaamualaikum nu001, ...................................... "But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you [Muhammad] judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission.� [al-Nisaa� 4:65]  ï¿½. . . (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allaah and His Messenger . . .� [al-Nisaa� 4:59]

Brother Amah

I am sure you will agree with me that Allah does not believe in coincidence. What ever he says and what ever he does, He exactly knows past, present and future of it. Just see some of the previous verses before He says verse 4:59:

04.048         Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed.

004.049       Hast thou not turned Thy vision to those who claim sanctity for themselves? Nay-but Allah Doth sanctify whom He pleaseth. But never will they fail to receive justice in the least little thing.

 004.050       Behold! How they invent a lie against Allah! but that by

                    itself is a manifest sin

If you have read it, iam sure that you understand the meaning of your verses. As the prophet was physically present amongst the people so it is mentioned him and Allah. How do you get him as your judge once he is dead? If you are trying to reach to a dead soul, you are trying to make him divine not human thus partnering with Allah.

As he was the judge during his life time, so there after many others will be judge to resolve disputes amongst people; Prophet did it with Allahs Laws, same will be done [and are possibly being done in some places] by Allahs laws by others. Did prophet have a different set of laws than Allah? 

I would love to go to the beloved prophet for justice than any other men we are going today for justice on disputes; because he would be sticking to the Quran better than anyone else there after. 

amah wrote: Bismillahirrahmanirraheem Assalaamualaikum nu001, your understanding of the Quran is incorrect.

There is no scope of my different understanding of Quran; While Allah says these verses are perfect, clear, easy to understand, in details etc etc do you think that Allah used words in Quran tentatively?  He used perfect and clear words. There is no scope of another meaning. Can you explain what do those ayahs mean then?

"Shall I seek other than Allah as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?"              6:114

"Follow what is revealed to you from your Lord (Qura�n)."     33:2

"The word of your Lord is complete in truth and justice" 6:115

"We have made it (the Qura�n) easy to understand and in your own tongue (language) may you take heed.�              44:58

"A.L.R. This is a book whose verses have been perfected" 11:1

There are many more places where similar things are told by Allah.

amah wrote: When Aisha radiallahu anha was asked about the character of the prophet sallallahu alayhi wasallam, she said his character was the quran.

So? We should follow Quran !! Where from Hadith comes in? If he followed Quran, why cant we try following Quran? Allah also says that in Quran; Isn�t it better to follow Allah's words than some one writing Hadith and telling that prophet said this, then we have to believe the hadith writers blindly, isn�t it? But following the Quran blindly is the safest option as prophet followed Quran.

amah wrote: Why does Allah stress upon obeying the Prophet so much (I dont need to repeat the verses). Allah said obey the messenger not obey the message.

Allah uses perfect words; Obey the messenger indicates message; If it meant mohammad, then don't you think that the number of marriage he had; becomes obligatory for all of us? After all 'follow' is a command. isnt it?

amah wrote: If you were to disbelieve in hadith, how would you know about the tafsir of the quran? Do you know when surahs were revealed, under what cicumstances, etc?

I have shown you before that these are not needed to understand Quran. Quran is indetail. These can only confuse you. It is neither �must know� nor �should know� for understanding Quran.

amah wrote: Kindly tell us the meaning of this ayah and for who was it revealed? "Allaah forbids you from it [slander] and warns you not to repeat the like of it forever, if you are believers." [al-Noor 24:17]"

I replied it before; it's a law and lesson for whole of mankind. Whatever is the occassion.

amah wrote: How do you exactly make salah ? No takbeer? no tashahhud? what do you read in qiyaam etc? What do you do regarding hajj?

Everything is there perfectly in Quran, if you ever wanted to know. I will insha Allah provide the complete, Salat related information/instruction from the Quran.

amah wrote: Most importantly, if you do not believe in the words of the Prophet or the narrations of the sahabas, how do you believe in the fact that Quran came through them?  It is the same prophet who memorised the quran, same sahabas who memorised the quran. You trust them to pass on the quran to us, but reject the fact that they can transmit hadith? Just because the Quran says it is the truth you believe it? what proof do you have besides that?

I definitely believe in the words of prophet; he brought us the Quran from Allah. That is proven to be perfectly from Allah; and to be divine. It's the prophet who told us that it is from Allah.

I am only not believing the hadith writers and scholars who wrote manythings out of rivalry between them and got us divided in the process. They have not proven that these were prophets words, many of which are contradictory to Quran.

amah wrote: Do you have any idea, how much effort has been put into hearing and preserving the hadith? Just because some people like Abdullah Chakralwi and the likes do not accept hadith, does not mean we must just throw away these gems from the prophet.

n001, you have not yet been able to refute any of the points that I have made and could not even explain the meaning of verse 82 of Surah Naml.

 I really dont understand why youre still arguing here. You even continued to mistranslate some verses even after I showed you the correct translation.

Let me ask another question. Which of the Authentic/Sahih narrations in Hadith books do you think contradict the Qur'an ? Instead of just repeating yourself please just show a few clear examples instead of repeatedly misquoting the Qur'an.

As for why we believe in the sayings of the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) it is because the Qur'an tells us to obey Allah And the Messenger, and because we know that the Prophet (pbuh) understood the Qur'an better than we do especially as he was taught by Gabriel/Jibrail and because he was chosen by Allah.

And you should also know that the same people who narrated and compiled the Qur'an also narrated the Hadith which were written down just one generation after by their students. And yes the Hadith are not as important and perfect as the Qur'an and any Hadith that truely contradicts the Qur'an is either abrogated or is a fabrication.

Allah's Messenger (pbuh) said: Very soon a tradition of mine will be related to a person lying on his couch who will say : "The book of Allah, Mighty and Glorious, is enough between you and us. Whatever we find in it as Halal we accept it as Halal and whatever we find in it as Haram we take it as Haram." Behold, whatever Allah's Messenger (pbuh) has declared as Haram is just like that which Allah has declared Haram.  (Sunan ibn Majah volume 1)

Sawtul Khilafah wrote: n001, you have not yet been able to refute any of the points that I have made and could not even explain the meaning of verse 82 of Surah Naml.  I really dont understand why youre still arguing here. You even continued to mistranslate some verses even after I showed you the correct translation. Let me ask another question. Which of the Authentic/Sahih narrations in Hadith books do you think contradict the Qur'an ? Instead of just repeating yourself please just show a few clear examples instead of repeatedly misquoting the Qur'an. As for why we believe in the sayings of the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) it is because the Qur'an tells us to obey Allah And the Messenger, and because we know that the Prophet (pbuh) understood the Qur'an better than we do especially as he was taught by Gabriel/Jibrail and because he was chosen by Allah. And you should also know that the same people who narrated and compiled the Qur'an also narrated the Hadith which were written down just one generation after by their students. And yes the Hadith are not as important and perfect as the Qur'an and any Hadith that truely contradicts the Qur'an is either abrogated or is a fabrication. Allah's Messenger (pbuh) said: Very soon a tradition of mine will be related to a person lying on his couch who will say : "The book of Allah, Mighty and Glorious, is enough between you and us. Whatever we find in it as Halal we accept it as Halal and whatever we find in it as Haram we take it as Haram. Behold, whatever Allah's Messenger (pbuh) has declared as Haram is just like that which Allah has declared Haram.  (Sunan ibn Majah volume 1)

Sawatul

Welcome. Please don't talk in general terms, point out where I have used wrong translation, along with your reference of translation. None of these are my translation. You can consult Yusuf Ali, Pickthal, Muhsin khan, Shakir etc or any translator you can reffer to. If we don't agree we can go back to Arabic for the real meaning.

Come on man; I replied you on your 82 verse, its not relevant here; please don't quote a verse number and tell me to explain it; you better explain how that supports hadith or authenticates hadith or relates to what you want to say; If I disagree i will put my refference and explanation for that, got it dear? I do the same once I quote.

How are you sure that the sentense you quoted as hadith is said by prophet? I am not going into the discussion of it being right/wrong now, first of all can you please tell me the entire link from; who heard it from prophet first and finally who told to the writer?

I possibly dont need to prove that Quran is Allah's word. You prove me that Hadith is prophets word and How do you deal with what Allah has said so clearly in Quran on Hadith and Sunnah? If you can't prove it to be wrong, can there be a discussion after Allah's word?

Salam 

Bismillah...assalaamualaikum

Shukran bro sign for "reviving" this topic (though I have still not read your post). I wish to discuss this with br nu and I will try to the best of my abilities. I am just short of time. Will be back later Allah willing...

wassalaam.

rami wrote: Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem The norm and standard is that ahadith are from rasul allah [sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam] as proved by the scholars of ahadith, therefor the onus is on nu001 to prove each and every individual hadith is fabricated. You are claiming something new not something this ummah has ever claimed in its entire history. You can start with the muwatta, Imam al-Bukhari said that the soundest of all chains of transmission was "Malik, from Nafi`, from Ibn `Umar." [who, of course, narrated from the Messenger of Allah] The scholars of hadith call it the Golden Chain, and there are eighty narrations with this chain in the Muwatta�. Here is a http://cwis.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muwatta/ - Translation of Malik's Muwatta .

Brother Rami

Reading your post, I feel that you have not read all the previous posts in the thread. Please read it, the prove exists there. Tell me which of the quranic verses are wrong (May Allah Forgive Us) to say that quran is the only source of law, Quran is detail-complete and needs no explanation etc etc etc .........

If you agree and believe in Allah's words then where from Hadith comes?

Then come about hadith; Mr. Bukhari says that these are reliable chains and we can believe it. So you believe it. Forget about his certificate, first tell me, why should I believe Bukhari himself that he was righteous? Any mandate he has from Allah to make laws? isn't it like Paul, Peter, Mathew, Luke describing what jesus said and did? Just think.

You tell me why Hadith is needed? If you know any reason, please tell me. 

I really want a serious & friendly discussion; Let the truth be established for our benefit (That includes me) 

Salam

Sign*Reader wrote: nu001 786:ASA I feel sorry that bro Sawtul and sister amah got no where with their effort to put the messenger (saw) in a perspective of the revelations. This has been observed in the elitist Muslims who are late in their incursion into Islam by a lack of training early on in their lives. Islam is a panoramic faith provided with way of life from the get go by the messenger(s) which was a complete package at the time of his death unlike any other religion which built dogma and rituals as they went along and gained political footholds. It is also obvious that you ignore to acknowledge credit to the Prophet(saw) for his services to Allah on the ummah's behalf. You relind me of Elijah Muhammad's MO of knowing the Quraan without any comprehending the background of each revelations and creating a deviant cult of his own. His main lieutenant Malcolm X discovered the truth and followed the proper sunnah faith but ended up paying the price with his life for telling the errors of his mentor's ways of interpreting Quraan. Let's see when Allah states in the following signs: What areas are being covered !!! Al -Ahzab 33:21 Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah. a. his beautiful Sunnah b. Hope for grace of Alllah on day of judgment c. the prayer /how to 33:56 Allah and His angels send blessings on the Prophet: O ye that believe! Send ye blessings on him, and salute him with all respect Where do you find the details of his beautiful pattern and  send salutations in salaat if don' t check the procedures in the early Imam's say Abu Hanifa (R) Born 80/699-150/767-via his recording from Hadith for his school of jurisprudence which has continued since. If your concern is about Bukhari that  he  came on the scene too late! There is not much description about the Prophet (saw)in Quran,Where do you go--to the orientalists?  Al-Imran 3:31 Say Oh Prophet : "If ye do love Allah, follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (full of grace)." Here The Prophet(saw) is being instructed by God to proclaim the to the believers to follow HIM if they want to be loved by Allah. If you are bereft of the knowledge of his seerah how can you even get in that ball park much less following him? Are you with me so far? His is the most quoted, and scrutinized seerah there is of any world leader cuz his life was an open book for the believers to follow. They passed on the details to coming generations as a trust of their preferred love story. They will love to emulate his ways as much as humanly possible. I have read about a great saint that he would not eat a certain fruit cuz he could not find in sunnah that how did the Prophet(saw) ate that particular item. Allah's grace is not possible till one loves the ways of Muhammad(sa) in the light of the quoted signs. The companions were his lovers cuz he came back after ascension to suffer at the hands of the idolaters  in order to complete the religion of his patriarch Abraham (as)  and establish which nobody could achieve in span of millenniums the numerous prophets of Israelites notwithstanding. It is OK if the some hadith were transmitted in poor form or recorded as such and tell you what they are not the basis of Islamic creed anyways. The Quraan is always there as GO NOGO gaging for quality purposes(Furqan) as long as you are knowledgeable and granted wisdom and not creating trouble (fitnah). It seems you are trying to self medicate yourself cuz the access to the pharmacy is available. There are some ailments you may self medicate by reading the labels and get your health back,  but you know it is always smart to ask the pharmacist. You know self medication is bad idea when life threatening condition prevails. It also indicates a condition of irresponsibility and a state where the people take short cuts to make up for the missed opportunities in their devolutionary processes. Some Muslims or pseudo Muslims are prone to this kind of approach in their futile attempt to mollify their colonial states. First they knock at the seerah then they will go to modify the  Quraan itself, then what next only Allah knows. The Kharjites of the Ali/Muaviyah conflict time frame also were the proponents of the Quraan only to be the arbiter of disputes and then guess what they created in the ummah? a split that has no chance of healing in foreseeable future. It is part of humanity, one doesn't need to get bent out of shape and throw the baby with bath water. How do you develop the jurisprudence if you don't have the body of hadith available to set up and adjudicate in the court system, unless you are  proponent of status quo of colonial legal system for Muslims. So in conclusion if there will be a need of the Islamic jurisprudence there will be demand to establish Islamic schools and universities the scholars and student will debate and sort out which hadith are Prophet's and which are not! And are they even applicable to the current life & times. Muslims need to develop big shoulders first to carry this responsibility. The most educated Muslims are helping the colonialist at the moment being in diaspora like the Jews were. It is matter of law and order; the muslims are just trying or look like to free themselves of the colonialism and the next step has to be rule of the law and enforcement of the laws without fear or favor.  More later may be

Dear Sign Reader

I can understand your sentiments; it is hard to come out from the thoughts which is age old. If you try to understand the Quranic verses being a little neutral (Without Preconceived ideas) for the time being; you will i hope have a better meaning of it.

I love prophet as much as you do. That's why I believe that each and every word of Quran is from Allah & follow it, and it is proven that there is no mistake in Quran.

Quran says that prophet didnot do or preach anything else other than Quran; I would feel lucky if I could follow him in totality. But unfortunately he is not there and left the Quran for us to follow.

Please see my earlier posts for refference from Quran; that even prophet was not authorised to make laws, it is only Allah who makes law. Now once Mr Bukhari says that prophet did this after 200 years, which is not supported by Quran, why should I believe him, any good reason?

Can you just prove that these were prophet's words/deeds/orders without having blind faith on Mr. Bukhari?

How do you explain the verses I quoted in my previous posts?

If I follow Quran, I am also following the prophet and of course Allah. Isn't it?

Can you also tell me why you need to know tafsirs/background (Which is disputed by different faction of muslims) to understand Quran? Can you site example of a verse which cant be understood without knowing background of it?

If hadith, tafsir etc was necessary, don't you think that the Chaliphs (who put Quran together as a book) would have recorded it? Why they will leave it for someone after over 200years coming from a non arabic background (Bukhara) to put it together and divide islam on the issue?

Please read the introduction of the very bukhari and the history back to the days of the last chaliph, how was the situation and how people were giving wrong refferences of prophet for their benefits (Money/power) while muslims were fighting muslims. Which group was right? Naturally every one likes to think their fore fathers were right. Islam is not fore fathars religion.

Allah did not complicate things, we the people did. People don't make religion, Allah makes. Allah has delivered Quran as the staright path. Confusions and controversies of hadith can't be a part of straight path.

Allah is the Greatest.

Text under the comments heading are only my words. Please read it and may go though the entire history of the time and hadith, and make your conscious decision for it. If you are confused, please turn to Quran. Allah has given us a straight path and His prophet Muhammad did not do or preach anything other than Quran. That's why when Allah says follow muhammad; Now it means follow the Quran which came through him.

Have A Glimpse from the History - After 24 years of Prophets Death:

After Uthman (Usman) was assassinated (656 AD) Ali was elected as Caliph. This period only lasted for five years. I call this period the period of frustration. Hadrat Ali found the caliphate to be a bed of thorns. During those five years, he fought three battles: (i) the Battle of the Camel, (ii) the Battle of Siffin, and (iii) the Battle of Nahrawan. All three battles were fought against the Muslims and led to considerable bloodshed. It was a matter of the great shock for him, that instead of fighting against non-Muslims, he had to fight against Muslims.

At the outset of his caliphate, he was betrayed by Banu Umayya when Muawiyah defied him and accused him of involvement in the murder of Hadrat Othman. He was betrayed by the people of Medina who did not respond to his call to undertake 'jihad' against Muawiyah. He was betrayed by Talha and Zubair, who took the oath of allegiance from him and later defected. He was betrayed by Hadrat A'isha his mother-in-law, who took top arms against him. He was betrayed by the people of Basra who had taken the oath of allegiance fro] him but later defected. At Siffin he was betrayed by his own army who would not fight when the victory was in sight. In the matter of arbitration, he was betrayed by his umpire Abu Musa Ashari, who instead of defending his cause, deposed him. He had to face the succession of the Kharijites who had originally fought on his side at the battle of Siffin. He was betrayed by Khurrity b. Raashid who had been his ally, but later revolted against him, and created trouble in Basra. He was betrayed by his own brother Aquil who was not satisfied with the allowance that Hadrat Ali gave him, and joined Muawiyah who rewarded him handsomely. He was betrayed by his cousin Abdullah b. Abbas when he had appointed as the Governor of Basra, and who left his post after misappropriated heavy fines from the Bait-ul-Mal. The final active betrayal came when Hadrat Ali was married, by a fanatic Kharijite.

Comments:     Just have a look at the history at the last legs of the Caliphate. You can well imagine what was going on there after. If you are interested you can go through all of it. The anarchy, fighting and betrayals all around are notable. Don�t you think/see clearly that all these were because of money/power/benefits etc?? Surely; not for the benefit of Islam.

Dear Sign Reader

Further to my last post; I basically have no disagreement with you on the issue of following the prophet.

1. I don't have any sort of believeable proof that the hadith is prophet's words/acts etc & How do you believe blindly on something which has been passed over 200 years? isn't it possible to be corrupted, given the situation during this period?

2. If you have to check with Quran everything and then follow whatever is supported by Quran; then why go there? Simply Read the Quran and follow it directly. Why complicate?

3. Following Quran is following the prophet, coz he led his life according to the quran; Allah says. What problem do you/me could find in believing and doing that?

4. You seem to suggest that Quran alone is not enough for the jurisprudence, salat etc but i don't find any deficiency in Quran. I find everything is there in Quran. Anyway, you can't make new things which are not supported or guided by Quran.

5. You are accepting that there are some mistakes in Hadith but majority are good, so follow it. I am scared to be in sin by putting a single lie in prophet's mouth/name, while i don't find any necessity of doing it, coz i can get everything in the Quran.

I am following the prophet by following the complete Quran which he brought from Allah. Allah definitely (Insha-Allah) will not mind if someone lives within the Quranic laws, but will someone be spared for following & spreading a single lie in the name of prophet?

Can you gurantee that everything in Hadith is true?

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaykum

I am sorry brother but i dont think i have capacity to debate some1. For me every thing is 1 + 1 = 2 and i can never thank Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala enough to make things clear in my mind. For me Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala never makes anything without a purpose. Then how can he send 240,000 Prophets alyhimusalaam just like that, He only revealed four major books and hundred and some booklets (sahifa, sorry dont know the real translation of it). So were those Prophets not sent to clarify matters and tell people about the Laws of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala.

I am sure you must have seen me mentioning this so many times, but i can not seem to find anywhere in Holy Quran how to pray. The prayer times are not very clear themselves and many other things. I will mention one thing, if you read Surah Muzammil, it looks like tahajjud is fard on us, Do you think it is? and if not where does it say in Holy Quran it is not.

Wassalam

Have A Glimpse from the History - After 24 years of Prophets Death:

This is only a glimpse, no muslim scholar ever concluded on something as serious as you have from mere glimpses.

After Uthman (Usman) was assassinated (656 AD) Ali was elected as Caliph. This period only lasted for five years. I call this period the period of frustration. Hadrat Ali found the caliphate to be a bed of thorns. During those five years, he fought three battles: (i) the Battle of the Camel, (ii) the Battle of Siffin, and (iii) the Battle of Nahrawan. All three battles were fought against the Muslims and led to considerable bloodshed. It was a matter of the great shock for him, that instead of fighting against non-Muslims, he had to fight against Muslims.

Are you now validating Al Qaeda's interpretation of the Quran, becouse certainly you are using the same methodology as them to interprate it. Should we "kill the Kufar where ever we may find them" because that verse without looking at asbab an nuzul [reason for revelation] clearly states we should do so. YOU are not educated enough to interprate historical events, it espetialy can not be done from English sources. 

Did Imam Ali's great shock lead him to forget any of the Quran or any ahadith for that matter.

At the outset of his caliphate, he was betrayed by Banu Umayya when Muawiyah defied him and accused him of involvement in the murder of Hadrat Othman. He was betrayed by the people of Medina who did not respond to his call to undertake ' <>jihad' against Muawiyah. He was betrayed by Talha and Zubair, who took the oath of allegiance from him and later defected. He was betrayed by Hadrat A'isha his mother-in-law, who took top arms against him. He was betrayed by the people of Basra who had taken the oath of allegiance fro] him but later defected. At Siffin he was betrayed by his own army who would not fight when the victory was in sight. In the matter of arbitration, he was betrayed by his umpire Abu Musa Ashari, who instead of defending his cause, deposed him. He had to face the succession of the Kharijites who had originally fought on his side at the battle of Siffin. He was betrayed by Khurrity b. Raashid who had been his ally, but later revolted against him, and created trouble in Basra. He was betrayed by his own brother Aquil who was not satisfied with the allowance that Hadrat Ali gave him, and joined Muawiyah who rewarded him handsomely. He was betrayed by his cousin Abdullah b. Abbas when he had appointed as the Governor of Basra, and who left his post after misappropriated heavy fines from the Bait-ul-Mal. The final active betrayal came when Hadrat Ali was married, by a fanatic Kharijite.

The manner in which you have quoted the above seems to indicate that it all occurred at the same time and you are using it to state that the muslim ummah was in practical anarchy while this is far from reality.

I strongly advise you to read the following article as it it mostly a historical summation written by a scholar more capable than any source you have Quoted thus far in english.

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/ahm/newmadhh.htm - Abdal Hakim Murad graduated from Cambridge University with a double-first in Arabic in 1983. He then lived in Cairo for three years, studying Islam under traditional teachers at Al-Azhar, one of the oldest universities in the world. He went on to reside for three years in Jeddah, where he administered a commercial translation office and maintained close contact with Habib Ahmad Mashhur al-Haddad and other ulama from Hadramaut, Yemen.

What we now call Prophet Muhammed's hadiths was collected over two hundred years after his death and then allowed to be written years after all the four guided Khalifas refused to permit such writing.

Does the name AbuHurayrah sound familiar? 

Do you know anything about this sahabi?

When he saw people were dedicated to collect and preserve the Quran, he dedicated himself to collect the sayings of the prophet (saw), which were other than the Quran.

Yes, and he was a sahabi - he did not come into picture some 100s of years after the death of the prophet (saw). So whosoever says that hadith was never payed attention to for 100s of years, has not done his research well.

Another thing, try to learn something about the human brain and its abilty to collect and recall.

There have been people who can memorise entire Quran cover to cover - till today. And there are people who have memorised entire Bukhari and/or entire Muslim cover to cover - with their chain of transmission - meaning that they not only memorise the hadith they also memorise from who it came to be documented in the book of Hadith Muslim or Hadith Bukhari, going back to the Prophet (saw) himself. 

Calling it chinese whisper is an insult to human intellect. When people of today can memorise hadith with its chain of transmission, can the former generations not memorise them as they heard from the prophet(saw) ?

Perhaps it does not cross the minds of some that people have been avid to maintain the authenticity of religion in all times. There have been a band of people and shall remain till the end of times who will adhere to the traditional form of Islam. They have been transmitting it from generation to generation - there have not been any "dark ages" in history where mankind might have seen total wipe out of Islamic documentations as in other religions. This is a big difference between Islam and other monothestic religions.

Even when the great conquests against Islam witnessed the books of knowledge being thrown in Tigris so much so that its water became black with ink, Islam did not die. - That was just an event in history which came to pass and we still have knowledge - abundant knowledge - and all of this comes from Quran AND hadith - plus their careful analysis.

fatima wrote: Bismillah irrahman irrahim Assalamu alaykum I am sorry brother but i dont think i have capacity to debate some1.

Thanks, I would requet you to Read the quran alone and try to understand yourself. Without any tafsir/hadith and ask for the truth from Allah. Please start making your opinions after you read it 1/2 times. See what happens. Allah wil show you truth if He wants. There is nothing to loose if you read quran, isn't it?

fatima wrote:  For me every thing is 1 + 1 = 2 and i can never thank Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala enough to make things clear in my mind.

All people think the same; with or without truth. Don't you think that even the people who worship Idols, they also have the same feelings that the god has shown & made everything clear to him. I am not meaning you; i would request, even you are right still there is no harm trying to understand quran alone (Only guidance from Allah through our beloved prophet). May Allah bless you with truth & more iman

fatima wrote:  For me Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala never makes anything without a purpose. Then how can he send 240,000 Prophets alyhimusalaam just like that, He only revealed four major books and hundred and some booklets (sahifa, sorry dont know the real translation of it). So were those Prophets not sent to clarify matters and tell people about the Laws of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala.

You are absolutely right, He has sent so many prophets and either they were given books, sahifas or told to follow some previous books. They came as an example to people so they can follow the book. They have never told or have written anything themselves. You can see, even a single book is not intact, how can you believe that the prophets sayings are intact? Once you read. Allah promised to keep Quran intact and it is proven to be intact.

fatima wrote: I am sure you must have seen me mentioning this so many times, but i can not seem to find anywhere in Holy Quran how to pray. The prayer times are not very clear themselves and many other things. I will mention one thing, if you read Surah Muzammil, it looks like tahajjud is fard on us, Do you think it is? and if not where does it say in Holy Quran it is not. Wassalam

Quran is clear on salat positions, times and sura Muzzammil does not give me a sense of conpulsory prayer. If you read the verses where timings are clearly given and check this verse where it says salat in different parts of night is optional: 17:79

Finally, it is Allah who decides whom he will bless with the right path, so look for it in the Allahs words, you may not understand in a day, but we have to persevere on that, some day Allah will (Insha Allah).

I am only inviting towards the truth of Allah; accepting or associating is every individuals right & Allahs wish.

Salam

[QUOTE=rami] Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

I have not read all the posts, you are not the first person or the last person that will argue this point................

I knew you will not read my posts, because I reffered Quran. I have read your post. I think Quran is not some thing you take guidance from, just preserve it nicely. You are guided by scholars. See, allah mentioned it in Quran, about those who follow/make the scholars their god. Verse is there in my previous posts. Read it please. 

I told in my previous posts to give me one verse, which is not possible to understand from Quran. I am not so expert but will insha-Allah explain it from Quran. Some sister gave a verse, the discussion is there you can read above posts, if you want.
You were reffering some confirmed sayings of prophet, who told you it's confirm? Mr. Bukhari? How can you tell those were prophets own word? Only Quran, you can be sure are Allah's words, prophet said, and scientifically proven to be Allah's words. Do you have any prove that those were prophets word?

If only knowing arabic would ensure that you will understand Quran; there would not be over 10 milion arabic speaking christians & Jews in the middle east. It is Allah who shows the straight path; some are screened by allah from the truth. Allah said in Quran. I just wonder, if the people would remember Allah as much as they remember and respect/believe the scholars/ idols, probably Allah would be happy to show that Quran is the only Guidance, Mohammad is Allah's slave and messenger. Now place the scholars/idols who put false words in the mouth of beloved prophet.

[We have revealed the Reminder and We have taken upon ourselves the duty of preserving it intact] (Al-Hijr 15:9).

YUSUFALI: We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption) 15:9.

What do you think Allah has revealed? I am sure Quran is the only revealation. So Allah preserves Quran and it is beyond doubt mentioned in the same verse. We all know hadith is Sahih and Galat(You may use different term, but what ever is not sahih is definitely Galat). Who said it is sahih? Scholars; neither Quran, nor Prophet, neither sahabas, some people reffered sahabas after a few hundred years. Please read my previous Quotes from Quran.

Here you go wrong; Quran is not revealed by Rasul Allah, it is by Allah, it is reaveled to or through Rasul Allah. He is the messenger; Allah did not allow messengers to say or do anything else other than permitted by Quran. I am sure that He did follow the Quran perfectly. So if you follow the Quran you are automatically following the prophet. How can you follow someone physically if he is dead? Follow the book he followed. That's it. Please see my Quotes from Quran in previous posts.

Dear Brother, i am not a new comer in Islam and have enough resources to know what is the science? (It is deceving people, i believe you know the definition of science). The most authentic book of sahih Bukhari (As per you 'There are declared GALAT hadith also') mentons that how much corruption and conflicts were there for making false hadiths. Please read the science again. Only blind faith on Mr. Bukhari and likes, better have blind faith on Allahs words. 

May allah bless you with truth. And please don't get annoyed with my post, because I am not telling you to listen to my words, I am inviting you to Allah's words only. Accept or reject is your matter. But please if you preach something different than Quran, please prove it from Quran not by a refference of scholars, or of oxford/cambridge school. Allah's words are far far bigger, just and greater than anyone you quote.

If you can please give me a different meaning of the verses I have Quoted in my previous posts, in line with your Tafsir and Hadith. If you cant make it different, it should mean as it is. We must follow it absolutely, for Allah does not authorize or need partnership with anyone

Salam

UmmTaaha wrote:   Does the name AbuHurayrah sound familiar?  Do you know anything about this sahabi? When he saw people were dedicated to collect and preserve the Quran, he dedicated himself to collect the sayings of the prophet (saw), which were other than the Quran. Yes, and he was a sahabi - he did not come into picture some 100s of years after the death of the prophet (saw). So whosoever says that hadith was never payed attention to for 100s of years, has not done his research well. Another thing, try to learn something about the human brain and its abilty to collect and recall. There have been people who can memorise entire Quran cover to cover - till today. And there are people who have memorised entire Bukhari and/or entire Muslim cover to cover - with their chain of transmission - meaning that they not only memorise the hadith they also memorise from who it came to be documented in the book of Hadith Muslim or Hadith Bukhari, going back to the Prophet (saw) himself.  Calling it chinese whisper is an insult to human intellect. When people of today can memorise hadith with its chain of transmission, can the former generations not memorise them as they heard from the prophet(saw) ? Perhaps it does not cross the minds of some that people have been avid to maintain the authenticity of religion in all times. There have been a band of people and shall remain till the end of times who will adhere to the traditional form of Islam. They have been transmitting it from generation to generation - there have not been any "dark ages" in history where mankind might have seen total wipe out of Islamic documentations as in other religions. This is a big difference between Islam and other monothestic religions. Even when the great conquests against Islam witnessed the books of knowledge being thrown in Tigris so much so that its water became black with ink, Islam did not die. - That was just an event in history which came to pass and we still have knowledge - abundant knowledge - and all of this comes from Quran AND hadith - plus their careful analysis.

Sister

I have Quoted Quran which does not permit any Hadith; I have Quoted Hadith Also if you like which says that it was forbidden to writedown anything else of prophet other than Quran, If you see the collection process of Quran during the time of Omar; it clearly says that eveything else other than quran was burnt and destroyed. Now if you tell me some sahaba has disobeyed it, I don't agree with you and undermine that sahaba.

I hope that's enough and I don't want to respond to your sarcasms.

All Allah's revelations before Quran have been distorted by people, most recently the christianity. Which was meant to be preserved and was written with a much less time gap than Hadith and got distorted. Hadith; which was not preserved at all you want to say is intact. Even Bukhari does not agree with you. Your human brain theory does not suit. If some one memorises wrong thing, how can it become true? Did the human not have brains before Islam?

Some muslims tend to believe that those christians were bad people so changed it and our muslims are good people and they can't make mistake. Come on, Read history. who killed Usman? Who fought with Ali? Who betrayed whom? Why muslims are divided? Were they not two of the 4 closest companions? Even good people will change words while passing verbally, that's natural and human.

You are bringing out another Sahaba whose collection came out 100 years later. Another dead man exploited by the Hadith preachers only to make blind people believe. Hard to believe that a Sahaba violated prophet's instruction and Osman's instruction.

I have put many other questions and refferences in my posts from the begining; please answer some of those hard questions or prove my refferences are wrong with the ref from Quran, if you can. I will be happy to listen to it.

"Always in search of truth and more truth and more .... untill death"

Allah SWT says repeatedly in the Quran to obey both Him and the Messenger. One example is Surah an-Nisa ayah 59.

Ya ayyuha alladhina amanu ati Allaha wa ati ar-Rasul wa ulu'l-amr min kum. Fa in tanaza'tun fi shay'in fa rudduhu ilaAllahi wa ar-Rasul in kuntum tu'minuna bIllahi wa'l-Yawmi al-Akhir. Dhalika khayrun wa ahsanu ta'wil.

O you, those who have faith, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you dispute over a thing, then return it to Allah and the Messenger, if you have faith in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more beautiful of interpretation.

He says that the Prophet (sAas) has been sent to explain the Quran, not just to deliver it (Surah an-Nahl ayah 44).

Bi al-bayyinat wa az-Zubur wa anzalna ilayka adh-Dhikra li-tubayyina li an-nas maa nuzzila ilayhim wa la'allahum yatafakkarun.

By clear proofs and scriptures, and We have sent down on you (O Prophet) the Reminder, that you can explain to humankind what is sent down for them and in order that they may reflect.

He says that people do not have faith if they do not take the Prophet (sAas) as the judge of their disputes (Surah an-Nisa ayah 65).

Fa laa wa Rabbika laa yu'minuna hatta yuhakkimuka fi maa shajara baynahum thumma laa yajidu fi anfusihim haraj min maa qadayta wa yusallimu taslima.

No, by your Lord and Sustainer, they do not have faith until they have you (O Prophet) judge what is disputed among them, then they do not find in their souls any distress at what you have decided, and they accept it wholly and completely.

He says that when He and the Prophet (sAas) have decided a matter, it is not for any believing man or woman to do anything but obey (Surah al-Ahzab ayah 36).

Wa maa kana li mu'min wa laa mu'minah idha qadaAllahu wa Rasuluhu amran an yakuna lahum al-khiyarat min amrihim wa man ya'siAllaha wa Rasulaha faqad dalla dalala mubin.

And it is not ever for a faithful man or a faithful woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decided an affair that there is any choice for them in their affair, and who disobeys Allah and His Messenger, so he is indeed wandering far astray.

He says that what the Messenger gives, people should take, and what he prohibits, they should abstain from (Surah al-Hashr ayah 7).

...Wa maa atakum ar-Rasul fa khudhuhu wa maa nahakhum anhu fa intahu. Wa ittaquAllah innAllaha Shadid al-Iqab.

...And what the Messenger gives you, so take it, and what he prohibits you, so refrain from it. And be in awe of Allah. Surely Allah is Stern of Punishment.

How do we determine what the Prophet (sAas) has ordered, in order to obey it?

How do we find out what he judged in disputes so that we can abide by it?

How do we know what he has decided on matters, so that we can submit to it?

How do we discover what he has given, so that we can take it, or what he has prohibited, so we can abstain from it?

The answer to all these questions is very simple: we look to the SUNNA. If you deny the validity of the Sunna then you may end up disobeying what the Prophet (sAas) has commanded, turning away from what he has judged, rejecting what he has decided, ignoring what he has given, and doing what he has prohibited.

And if you do these acts of disobedience, turning-away, rejecting, ignoring, and doing-the-prohibited then YOU HAVE DISOBEYED ALLAH. It's that simple. It is incumbent upon every Muslim to obey both the Quran and the Sunna. Read the verses I have cited for yourself. What do you think they mean?

The Mistake of Those Who Confuse the Sunna and the Hadiths

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/PERF731.html - PERF No. 731: The Earliest Manuscript Of Malik's Muwatta' Dated To His Own Time.

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaykum

Brother there were two reasons for me to not participate in this thread at start, then on you invitation i did. First reason was your way of describing the scholars for whom majority of past scholars had showed nothing but respect and secondly because i thought brother rami has more knoweldge and better way of explaining things than me.

Brother now i wished i hadn't, because the worst thing you can do to a believer is compare his coviction of faith to a an idol worshiper but then i thought if you wont spare a well respected scholar, i am no one. So I am sorry but i wont be participating in this thread because i tried to explain things for sake of my Lord and if personal feelings come to it that is wrong.

But i would tell you one thing very sincerely, one thing that i can tell reading only few posts from you is that you need to rid yourself of assumptions. You assumed that i have not read Holy Quran with just meanings, thats how i started my journey brother just Holy Quran, you assume that the verse 17:79 is for general public, it is specific for Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wassalam telling him that he needs to pray tahajjud. And the verses i said in Surah muzammil are the ones telling muslims that tahajjud is fard on them because thats the way it was before the night of isra. And the verse you keep mentioning of reading Holy Quran in a voice that is neither too low nor too high is early makkan time. Muslims use to pray their salah in hiding so it was revealed that pray in a way that your companions can hear but not the troublemaker non-believers.

But then again you dont believe in knowing the background of verses. Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala says in Holy Quran that He is the one who guides people. So i pray that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala guide us all to his right path.

wassalam

Bismillahirrahmanirraheem

I want you to answer me please wherever I have put a question for you�.

There are many things you have stated in your posts which you wouldn�t have if you had true knowledge and understanding of the Quran and science of hadith.

your post in black:

For me Quran alone is enough and only guidance; that's what Quran testifies.

No, Allah says in the quran many times to follow the messenger.

Meanwhile if you can please tell me what is the proof of these Hadith that these are prophet's words?

So many proofs have been given, more will come insha allah...

Why should I turn to history for Ibadah while Allah has made it clear in Quran?

I never asked you to take rulings of ibadah from history, you are putting words in my mouth.

You are the one who is telling us about the �history� of how uthman and ali were killed, how muslims are divided etc, how do you know all this? You believe the people in this regard ? but you refuse to believe in a single hadith? If I tell you uthman was not murdered (just suppose) , can you prove it to me otherwise? and how?

I asked you about history because I want to show you how conveniently you talk about history, and in the next line you say you dont believe the scholars......why can that (the "history" you believe in ) not be distorted?

There may be some hadith which has elements of truth; but there are lies/false things mixed with it; how can that be a source of mandatory law? 

Prove that it is mixed with lies. Br rami asked you this many times. You are accusing sahabas and the later generations of lying.

I am sure that the prophet didnt violet Quran and didnt make any laws beside the Quran.

 If each and everything about life was mentioned in the quran, imagine how long it would have been?

Allah definitely forbids any other teaching other than Quran; And Quran is the only source of law for muslims. Mohammad didnt preach anything other than Quran.

You are highly mistaken. If that were the case, then tell me quran mentions about chopping off the thief�s hand. From where do you chop off, the whole arm, till elbow or from the wrist? Will you chop off the hand of a small child who steals? Will you chop off the hands of a hungry person who stole food? Which hand will you chop off, right? left? or both?

24:13   Why did they not produce four witnesses? Since they produce not witnesses, they verily are liars in the sight of Allah 24:14   Were it not for the grace and mercy of Allah on you, in this world and the Hereafter, a grievous penalty would have seized you in that ye rushed glibly into this affair. 24:15   When you received it with your tongues and spoke with your mouths what you had no knowledge of, and you deemed it an easy matter while with Allah it was grievous.24:16   And why did ye not, when ye heard it, say? - "It is not right of us to speak of this: Glory to Allah! this is a most serious slander!"

Now; Is there any sense for going to history/tafsir to know who was that man/woman to complain and when and where it happened? What additional benefit u get in that? Isn�t Quran clear on the law? Just complicating and running the risk of believing in lies; The names of the places, time or story; any where there may be mistake in a description after/over 200 years; while it has no benefit in understanding the Law.

Believing  lies? What nonsense! Yes, quran is sent for all of us and is applicable till the day of judgement. But for who was it revealed initially? Do you know what difference this ayah made to the life of aisha?

04.048               Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed. 004.049           Hast thou not turned Thy vision to those who claim sanctity for themselves? Nay-but Allah Doth sanctify whom He pleaseth. But never will they fail to receive justice in the least little thing.  004.050    Behold! How they invent a lie against Allah! but that by

If you have read it, iam sure that you understand the meaning of your verses. As the prophet was physically present amongst the people so it is mentioned him and Allah. How do you get him as your judge once he is dead? If you are trying to reach to a dead soul, you are trying to make him divine not human thus partnering with Allah.

We are not reaching to a dead soul but refering to his sunnah. Where do you get these ideas about us?

Obey the messenger indicates message; If it meant mohammad, then don't you think that the number of marriage he had; becomes obligatory for all of us? After all 'follow' is a command. isnt it?

I am surprised at your ignorance. Or maybe not (after reading all this).Some things were allowed only for the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam. Regarding marriage, it is clear in the quran that a man cannot marry more than 4 times, THIS you know, don�t you? so how can it be obligatory here to follow this particular sunnah? your example is very poor.

Everything is there perfectly in Quran, if you ever wanted to know. I will insha Allah provide the complete, Salat related information/instruction from the Quran.

why is it taking you time to tell us that?

I definitely believe in the words of prophet;

What? Aren�t you contradicting yourself?

 he brought us the Quran from Allah. That is proven to be perfectly from Allah; and to be divine.

Prove it, you have still not proven it to us, you are only stating �your belief� , �your understanding�. Repeating something hundred times does not make it the truth.

 It's the prophet who told us that it is from Allah.

Did the prophet tell you this himself? How can you make such a statement? Where did the prophet say this??????????? Aren�t you contradicting yourself?

I am only not believing the hadith writers and scholars who wrote manythings out of rivalry between them and got us divided in the process.

How can you say this? Your proof? 

They have not proven that these were prophets words, many of which are contradictory to Quran.

Which hadith are contradictory ? you are making general (false)statements without proof.

Who told you about there efforts? The person who has done it, he himself had to tell what all they have done to prove their worth. What ever hard work they have done; they could neither reach the prophet nor the sahabas and their 8-10 generations; to verify, whom the people were referring in hadith. Could they? Isnt it like Chinese whispers? Do you want to tell me that Hadith words are perfect?

It is insulting to call them Chinese whispers! This is ridiculous!

"They have set up their religious leaders and scholars as lords; instead of God....." 9:31

Finally, do you think it is only aimed at the christians, jews and all those who came before prophet Muhammad? Is it not applicable for the Muslims as well?

Again.... Your assumption.

I would feel lucky if I could follow him in totality

Please see my earlier posts for refference from Quran; that even prophet was not authorised to make laws, it is only Allah who makes law.

You will be lucky if you insha allah understand your error, rather sin. you have purely misunderstood those verses.

If I follow Quran, I am also following the prophet and of course Allah. Isn't it?

How? by rejecting his sunnah?

There by Islam was finally divided into sects. Both parties have differences in Tafsirs and Hadith. Someone must have lied? Who was that? Probably we know each others answer. Can such things be a source of laws for Ibadah & Faith?

Who is this �both?� what parties? Be specific.

Prophet predicted that islam will be divided by people into 73 sects and only one will remain on the true path. But you don�t know this because you do not read hadith.

You said this to br rami:

I knew you will not read my posts, because I reffered Quran.

So? You mean we don�t refer to the quran?

I have read your post. I think Quran is not some thing you take guidance from, just preserve it nicely.

You are accusing him of something against which you have no knowledge or proof . But if you can accuse the sahabas�..

I told in my previous posts to give me one verse, which is not possible to understand from Quran.

No matter how many verses we provide, you will give your own (mis)interpretation. So whats the point?

Now place the scholars/idols who put false words in the mouth of beloved prophet.

You are slandering not only the companions of the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam but also other people who dedicated their lives for islam. Allah has mentioned in the quran that he is pleased with the sahabas. Can you mention that verse?

I have Quoted Hadith Also if you like which says that it was forbidden to writedown anything else of prophet other than Quran,

That is incorrect. Hadith were written down during the prophets sallallahu alaihi wasallam�s time as well , infact he had scribes to write them down.

If you see the collection process of Quran during the time of Omar; it clearly says that eveything else other than quran was burnt and destroyed

 Hadith were not burnt. and your evidence/proof for this statement?

If some one memorises wrong thing, how can it become true?

If you say the wrong things, it cannot be true.

Some muslims tend to believe that those christians were bad people so changed it and our muslims are good people and they can't make mistake.

And you think allah would allow such major mistakes so that millions of muslims will be mislead? Allah would allow your own "salaah" in his house (baitullah)? Tell me how do you perform hajj? do you pray in jama'ah? How do you calculate your zakah, it is not mentioned in the quran how to.

Come on, Read history. who killed Usman? Who fought with Ali? Who betrayed whom?

Again�.You believe history? Amazing!

Why muslims are divided? 

Satan, forgot about him?

dont answer my post yet....

Bismillahirrahmanirraheem

I will be editing this post to add more ....insha allah.

1] Why did allah reveal this ayah? 

Surah al haaqqa

�43.This is the Revelation sent down from the Lord of the Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists).

44.And if he (Muhammad SAW) had forged a false saying concerning Us (Allah),

45.We surely should have seized him by his right hand (or with power and might),

46.And then certainly should have cut off his life artery (Aorta), 47.And none of you could withhold Us from (punishing) him.�

rami wrote: Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem (Surah an-Nahl ayah 44). - Bi al-bayyinat wa az-Zubur wa anzalna ilayka adh-Dhikra li-tubayyina li an-nas maa nuzzila ilayhim wa la'allahum yatafakkarun. - By clear proofs and scriptures, and We have sent down on you (O Prophet) the Reminder, that you can explain to humankind what is sent down for them and in order that they may reflect.

Brother Rami

Of course he has tought the people of that time Quran, when he was, all the people were idol worshipping. They definitely needed explanation. The time was 1400 years before, when people hardly knew even how to read/write. He has left the Quran for us and Allah says that it is enough and needs no explanation. Please once again I am requesting you to read & understand the Quranic verses I have Quoted before.

The hadith preachers method: you can try to apply all of those methods and findout what your fore fathers said before 200 years if you can find out the truth to put in their mouth. Even if one of the sentence/law is wrong; How much sinful it is to say that prophet said it, can you imagine?

Prophet is very important, does not mean that some one telling after 200 years that prophet said this and I will agree with that. Many of those are against or extension of Quran. All the persons reffered at the time of collecting hadith have died, how can they confirm it? Just a few scholars agree that it is good and it must be said by the prophet, can we put words in the prophets mouth and make it a law? While Quran is enough.

Prophets job is over and now we are to follow the Quran;

"You will find that the Sunnah of Allah is the only Sunnah" (33:62.... 35:43...48:23)
"Shall I seek other than Allah as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?� 6:114

Quran is protected by Allah. How do you think that the Iblish is working to divert people? other than creating parallel books to take people away from the Main book (Quran)??

"We have permitted the enemies of every prophet, human and jinn devils, to inspire in each other fancy sayings, in order to deceive" 6:112

However hard work the hadith collectors have done, they could only agree among themselves, could not verify it from the origin after 200 years.

They can do research on quran and agree on each other about the interpretation; I have no problem consulting research documents and try to form our own opinion about things of Quran, but when words are put to the mouth of prophet which are bound to be false words and try to malke it a parallel with Quran as a source of law, I have objection.

Untill someone proves that Quranic words are wrong. You are free to go deep into Quran and make your own opinion.

Prophet did not teach anything else other than Quran.

"It (the Quran) is a revelation from the Lord of the universe. Had he (Muhammad) uttered any other teachings, We would have grabbed him by the right, and We would have severed his Wateen (Major artery of the heart), none of you could have helped him." 69:43-47

Hope you concentrate on the Quranic verses, not on mine, neither any scholar. If you cant prove it wrong, then have to reject hadith, however attractive it sounds to you.

We will be judged by Quran not hadith. Quran is preserved not hadith what Bukhari wrote. We all will have to answer Allah individually, no scholar will come to save us. If you want to risk your fate on them, Most welcome. But Allah clearly tells us to not to depend on scholars, in Quran.

Allah is so kind that he has given us the Quran as simple and straight path. Quran is understandable by every simple person. Alhamdulillah

Lets make constant perseverence to understand Quran; if Allah is kind he will help. Insha-Allah  

Hikmah is in Quran and as you read and look for the deeper meaning of those, you will get. Those who claim that they have hikmah, where do they get it from, other than Quran? I don't mind having opinions of the people who does extensive search on Quran, it definitely will help to form my opinion, but can't agree putting false words in the mouth of prophet.

Once the Quran was being revealed to the prophet, many were blaming the prophet that he wrote it, then Allah challenged through verses for them to write one sura (Finally) like this. They could not. And Allah tells many times in Quran to recite from the Quran during Salat. Do you want me to believe, that the prophet used to start his prayer with a non quranic verse as you start today? or Tshahhud made by people? or the dua during Betr prayer? or Twisted verses in Ruku and sijdah? Kill me brother, i will not believe that prophet left the glorious verses from Quran and made such things to recite in the prayer. __________ have made it......

Please think and understand from Quran, Quran has enough glorious verses to say prayer and prayer is only for Allah, should we recite verses (Poems) made by the people?

I don't want to convince you, I am convinced by Allah through Quran. I told you. now, decision is yours, Coz I will not answer for your actions, you will. So please understand what you are doing, don't depend on any one. Allah will give you that understanding, please enter into Quran, alone, depending on Allah.

Salat, Fasting, Hajj and Zakah for everything, the essential things are mentioned in Quran. You can find everything in Quran.

Let me tell you about Zakah: Allah is so kind and knowledgeable, The instruction for jakah in Quran is to give Whatever you can give after whatever is left after essential expenditures. Don't be miser neither be extravagant that you land up in problem. But it is mandatory. Why should we fix up a percentage? For some one it may be burden, forsome one he might like to give more. Allah left it open, who are we to fix up the percentage (2.5%)

Believe me '0' '%' '.' was not invented during the time of prophet. Now you will tell me how the percent was developed from the prophet's instruction, I want to forget it. None has the right to make laws after Allah. If prophet suggested someone to pay some amount on some occassion, it does not mean that it becomes a rigid law over-writing Allah's law.Who is the supreme god?

We can deliberate on every issue u mentioned. I hope you can find out the verses from Quran on Zakah & other issues. If not tell me please, I will help. 

Alhamdulillah

rami wrote: Bi ismilahir rahmanir raheem Still you ignore key points! It is clear you have no answers, people who follow there own reasoning alone often hold views irrespective of real evidence and facts. You will not reach the truth even if you studied the Quran for a thousand years you dont have the capacity to self criticise your own ideas, Your nafs blinds you.

I have answered your all major and minor points through Quran. If you don't read that's your problem. Still if you think you did not get an answer, please copy it again, but come one by one, then it will be easy for you to follow as well. I don't need to go anywhere else, I have the answer to everything from the Glorious Quran. Alhamdulullah

People who follow Quran, they follow Allah & his messenger, they are Mmuslims.

People who follow psudo scholars, they are, Sunni, Shia, Kadiani, Agakhani, Hanfi, Shafei etc etc Allah knows how many are there, every thing but Muslims.

nu001 wrote: rami wrote: Bi ismilahir rahmanir raheem Still you ignore key points! It is clear you have no answers, people who follow there own reasoning alone often hold views irrespective of real evidence and facts. You will not reach the truth even if you studied the Quran for a thousand years you dont have the capacity to self criticise your own ideas, Your nafs blinds you. I have answered your all major and minor points through Quran. If you don't read that's your problem. Still if you think you did not get an answer, please copy it again, but come one by one, then it will be easy for you to follow as well. I don't need to go anywhere else, I have the answer to everything from the Glorious Quran. Alhamdulullah People who follow Quran, they follow Allah & his messenger, they are Mmuslims. People who follow psudo scholars, they are, Sunni, Shia, Kadiani, Agakhani, Hanfi, Shafei etc etc Allah knows how many are there, every thing but Muslims.

Nu, you have ignored all the major points. You did not bother answering my questions and also questions by all the members who tried to put some sense into you. You have only given vague answers, you have only repeated your statements, your assumptions, etc. without sufficient proof ......very convinient. I have still lots more to add to the discussion but I see no point now. You have no answers to our questions, that is obvious.