advice on relationship
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Topic: advice on relationship
Posted By: 73v3n
Subject: advice on relationship
Date Posted: 01 April 2007 at 4:46pm
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salaam, I need some advice if anyone can help. I am in relationship with a non muslim. We both have been looking into islam and tried to live islamically as much as we can there hasnt been no pressure on my part on my partner she wears a hijab most the time she has been reading abt islam sincere and genuine her intentions. Recently she has said to me tht everything that is haram appeals to her and she want to live tht lifestyle what can i say what can i do she didnt do shahada as we both agreed converting wont happen overnite. I`m trying to stay on the right path and i dont feel tht i need to go against my beleifs i`m not a perfect advert for islam but im trying and enjoying learning. today we looked through a photo album the back of the photo album her old life style and the front the new lifestyle both a million miles apart. |
Replies:
Posted By: crasss
Date Posted: 02 April 2007 at 3:29am
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Living like a Muslim is actually not hard at all, including for your non-muslim relation. What matters, is that certain things are forbidden. Everything else is allowed. Nobody can prevent you from doing what God has permitted. And that is basically: everything that He has not forbidden. The worst thing, that is completely forbidden, is associating partners, to God (shirk). The Quran especially and specifically forbids to associate family members to God. There are a few more rules, but they are absolutely not unreasonable. If your partner is not doing anything that God forbids, I don't see where the problem is. You must, however, do a ceremony, in which you hand her a gift (mahr), in the presence of her father or his substitute, prior to engaging lawfully in sexual relations. Note that this has nothing to do with writing paperwork or marriage certificates. I don't think anybody endorses the idea that you would be compelled to recognize wordly rulers to have authority over your marriage. You cannot reasonably serve two masters. Anyway, such wordly rulers may try to change the terms of your marriage, and thereby invalidate the ceremony and its meaning. This should be avoided. Your non-muslim relation can take advantage of the ceremony to testify that she will not recognize any other God than the Creator and Sustainer of the Universe, as the Quran clearly insists and demands. The traditional phrasing is of course the Shahada, but that amounts to exactly the same. It is basically a pledge never to shirk. I don't see what is so hard in pledging this. If you have engaged in sexual relations prior to the ceremony, you have indeed sinned. Sins can only be offset by a sufficient number of good deeds in repentance of the sin. In such case, I recommend that you consult the imam who will conduct the ceremony, what good deeds you both need to perform in order to break even with the consequences of this sin. I wish you all the happiness in your endeavours. |
Posted By: 73v3n
Date Posted: 02 April 2007 at 2:48pm
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thank you, My partner is not doing anything that god forbids but she says that what god forbids is appealing to her and she wants that life style is she a lost cause if that is a correct term and am i sinful because she is thinking along those lines. |
crasss wrote:Posted By: crasss
Date Posted: 02 April 2007 at 8:19pm
If sin were not attractive, nobody would be committing any. Therefore, it is to some extent understandable that she might be attracted to what God forbids.
What is her problem? Substance abuse? Unlawfully conceding sexual favours to men? Bad environment with all of such problems continuously tempting her?
Not if she really, really wants to get away from all that, inshallah. She might, in fact, need some authority to push her away from these things. Normally, parents and family are naturally appointed to do that. In a traditional setting, they would exert very serious pressure on her. If you live in a western setting, however, don't be surprised to see the natural arrangement to be failing. You should understand that you, as a husband, will not have such authority either. What's more, exercizing that kind of authority might get you into serious trouble. Therefore, if you realize that she cannot do it on her own faith and willpower alone, I recommend for your own sake that you abandon the idea. |
Posted By: 73v3n
Date Posted: 03 April 2007 at 2:08am
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i would say my partner comes from disruptive background at an early age she was put into foster home and was moved around alot ,bullied at school her real mother was victim of domestic abuse and she was seperated from her brothers and sisters. When reunited with her mum and new step dad she was then a victim of abuse from her step dad. the area and environment she comes from had no islam in it her step dad is a racist and his veiws on muslims and foreigners is extreme. the relationship with her step dad is non existant and her mum is similar but they have some contact recently she has made contact with her new dad who has been diagnosed with cancer and is an alcoholic. she also has health problems something to do with hormones and she was self harming a little but that has stopped. on the flipside she is the nicest person i know and has many qualities to know or look at u would never know on the surface she is so troubled. our paths crossed how only allah knows and i took her out of that environment and showed something stable and solid islam a way of life foundation and guidance the best as i could as i`m not a perfect muslim myself and have much to learn inshala. Islamicaly nothing was forced she has always had the choice. islamicaly theres not much around here and thers not alot of people she can to talk to or learn more islam also i think outside interference is not helping. she said everytime she thinks abt doin haram she feel guilty and cant do it she said now and again she would like go clubbing have a drink hav some fun etc etc. i think she is lonely and doesnt have freinds who can support like converts or muslim sisters who can help her. what i can do is very limited as our relationship is seen as taboo i have been warned that this kind of problems will arise and they are I`m are careing person and i would go out of my way to help anyone i need some kind of guidance as i have been a rock and now i`m crumbleing.
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Posted By: crasss
Date Posted: 03 April 2007 at 2:57am
Look, nobody is beyond repair. What would be needed for her, is:(1) her faith and her will to do it (2) clean environment (3) authority. The problem is (2) and (3). You cannot produce either with a magical wand, out of the blue.
Clubbing and drinking (and what else?) often turns out to be a deadly trap for girls, even from a stable background. For example. First the drugs are for free and given to you on a friendly basis, but after a while you badly need them, and then you do st**id things to get the money to buy them, and then you usually die prematurely, in the middle of one huge mess. This scenario is getting increasingly common. By the way, alcohol is also considered haram. For good reasons. Girls who club and drink very often regret the next morning what else they've just done.
The ones who are protective of these sisters, may very well insist that they stay away from the girl. She has no good friends, but the problem is that she might herself not be such a good friend either.
The girl's problems cannot be solved in the environment in which she is now. Her problems are bound to reappear sooner or later. She would have to move to an environment in which clubbing, drinking, other related substance abuse, and other temptations are inaccessible to her. In addition, someone's authority would be needed to supplement occasional, but dangerous failings in the good intentions she must have, at the basis. Obviously, as you clearly mentioned, her parents cannot do this. A husband, and his hopefully more intact family structure, would not be allowed to do this. No one else won't do this either. These problems are indeed beyond your capabilities to solve. I strongly recommend that you heed the warnings. |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 03 April 2007 at 4:00am
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Asalam Akaikum, I do not think anyone is a lost cause... and really that if between her and Allah. Does she have a translation of the Quran? There is no masjid nearby? ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: 73v3n
Date Posted: 03 April 2007 at 5:06am
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w/salaam she has a translation quran and there is a masjid but the problems or issues possibly local community politics makes it difficult to acess help and advice. i was thinkin may be i could ask a moderator permission to swop my partners details with a sister who can possibly help if it is allowed. crasss`s opinion and advice has been very helpful i have to say. |
Posted By: 73v3n
Date Posted: 03 April 2007 at 8:50am
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do you think she should declare her faith become a muslim and with the knowledge of quran, sunnah practicing islam. take her chances if does haram does haram its counted as a sin isnt it better to make these mistakes as a musllim than a non muslim. also yre opinion we have debated abt clothing women dressing with diggnity,alcahol and pork is there any simple way to explain rather than sayin cause the quran say so is there away to explain in a more modern way. if men are recomended to follow sunnah of the prophet mohamed peace be upon him what abt women what do they follow?
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Posted By: 73v3n
Date Posted: 03 April 2007 at 10:34am
| just like to add finaly that i removed my partner from her environment and took her away from it. i have provided her with stability and a little authority and guidance. i keep faith but problems still arise i keep faith in allah and im asking for advice as everythin is failing sometimes i dont like to hear the truth so yore opinions are appreciated. |
Posted By: crasss
Date Posted: 03 April 2007 at 7:32pm
I think this is mentioned one time in the Quran.
I don't remember this to be mentioned in the Quran. I am not sure, but I think it was mentioned in a testimony (hadiths, the sunnah).
I don't remember this to be mentioned in the Quran. I think this comes straight from the Torah (The [Jewish] books of Moses)
The Quran is very simple. It consists of 114 sermons (suras), of which a few are poems. Each sermon makes the same central point: There is only one God. There are no other gods. And the one God has no family members. The Quran is not a rule book. A few suras may raise issues like women's dress code, or forbid men and women to sleep around, but this is certainly not the central point in the Quran. The Quran is not an attempt to list all the rules. Islamic law (sharia) and its rules are directly derived from the (Jewish) Torah. I do not remember that the Quran actually adds any new rules beyond what you can find in the Torah. The Quran was originally delivered orally. People would listen a particular sura. The people listening were definitely not required to be highly educated scholars. You can safely assume that most listeners were bound to be illiterate, and the suras were addressed to these listeners, mostly simple people. Therefore, the Quran is indeed simple to read. |
Posted By: abuzaid
Date Posted: 05 April 2007 at 11:07am
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Dear crasss, from your other posts I thought you to be very knowledgeable and matured person, but I've changed my opinion after reading above posts. I have no intention of picking someones mistake, but many points are misleading in the post and I am compelled to correct it for the sake of Allah SW. I advice you to observe extreme care while talking anything about Deen. 1. Prohibition of Alcohol is mentioned clearly in Quran see. ch5: verse number 90-91 2. Prohibition of Pork is mentioned in Quran in no less that 4 places, see Ch2:173, Ch5:3, Ch6:145, Ch16:115 You are saying as if muslims follows Torah instead of Quran. This is a kind of accusation which muslims would find very difficult to digest. 3. You says some of the Surah in Quran are poem, and from where did you learn that? Quran itself clearly denies it be poetry. (Ch36:69) Though Quran is very beautify, impressive and melodious, but only enemy of Islam accused Quran to be poetry. Your point abouy Quran being not book of rule is partially correct. But its possible that people may get an impression that there are no rules mentioned in Quran at all. Quran mentions some of the rules very clearly, examples, Prohintion of Murder, fornication, liquor, dead animal, blood, animals on which name other that Allah is taken, pork, usury etc. Quran mentioned law of inhheritance in great detail in the beginning of Ch3 Quran explains law of financila dealings at the end of Ch2 Explain social laws, in Ch 49,33 and 24. 4. You said.
5. Quran is Indeed very simple, but it does not means that its only simple. IT depend upon person to person. Every person find it addressing himself. Quran is too Deep also, if the person has capability to understand. 6.Quran was initally spread through memory, But from very beginning Prophet Mohammed PBUH took special care to write it down to preserve it.
You may find some of my comment to be harsh.. I don't mean it, I do understand that you are a beginner. In othe other thread you have made some very wise points. If its history you can be careless, but matter of Deen is serious and without knowledge you shouldn't say single word. Don't take it as offence, and do more research before writing. Regards |
Posted By: crasss
Date Posted: 05 April 2007 at 6:45pm
Sorry, I forgot it. I thought these rules came from the Sunnah. I sometimes confuse both, especially in this area.
It is not an accusation. It is simply true that the Torah lists all (or the vast majority) of the rules already. In my impression, the idea of the Quran was not necessarily to remind the audience of the rules, who probably knew them already, but to firmly vest the concept of the One God.
By reading the Quran. A few suras look poetic (at the end of the Quran). Most are actually not poetic. Their style is the sermon.
The Quran is not meant to be poetry, since most suras are sermons and not poetic in style.
That's not what I wrote. There are rules mentioned in the Quran, but the central idea in the Quran, is definitely not to list all the rules. I don't think that listing the rules or reminding the audience about the rules, was actually the problem. Even the polytheists might have known them already. The problem was to vest the idea of the One God with people, who might otherwise have worshipped multiple gods. The Quran strikes me as one long warning not to worship any other gods.
Ok. There are actually and effectively rules being mentioned in the Quran. I concede.
Most of the work, however, concerning the rules, had already been done before the Prophet (pbuh) already. Most islamic rules were listed in the Torah already. The Torah pre-exists the Quran. Even the fact that there is only One God, is put forward clearly and originally in the Torah. This cannot be a coincidence: Islam is the religion of Abraham, extended to the non-Jews. There are a few minor differences in the details, but the core is the same. It is essentially the message starting with Abraham and ending with Moses.
Since there is only one God, it must obviously be the same law.
I can imagine that Muslim scholars not to like or to want to consult the Torah and to prefer to consult the Quran and the Sunnah. Regardless, it does not detract from the fact, that Islam is the religion of Abraham, which you can also find in the Torah. The reason of being for the Quran is that: (1) Judaism is reserved to the Jews (2) Christianity is not option, because it adds family members to God The message of the Quran is: (1) To open the religion of Abraham to non-Jews, who might otherwise be polytheists (2) To cancel all attempts to add family members to God Of course, this is just a summary. But still, if you try to look at the essence of Islam, you can't start digging in on details. I believe it is a valid summary to say that Islam is actually the religion of Abraham, which is the Torah. The minor differences matter less than the essence. Any attempt to repudiate the Torah or Abraham, will artificially try to create distinctions, where there are no such differences. Many Christians think Islam is completely different from Christianity. In their eyes, it is a completely different religion. Untrue. The Torah are also the first five books of the bible. Therefore, most of the rules in Islam and Christianity are the same. It is not the relatively minor differences, such as the prohibition of alcohol in Islam, that sets the two religions apart. The core difference between both is: Islam insists that God has no family members. This is what must be emphasized. Adding family members to God, amounts to polytheism, and has the same effect as polytheism: it will invariably be abused, and lead to hell on earth. This is the issue I am raising with Christians. The Christian religion is wide open to abuse, and leads to classes and castes within society. This religion can easily be abused to promote religiously sactioned inequality in society. Proof: Christian society has always been divided in Lords and serfs. My endeavour is not necessarily to promote Islam, but to underline why God has no family members, and that worshipping such family members is dangerous. It is true, however, that the Quran warns against this too. That is why I like the Quran. The other group of people in the West, who are somehow mistaken, are the atheists. It is true that Christianity led to hell on earth. This society of Lords and serfs was and is a nightmare. I am trying to demonstrate that this is not the result of religion in general, but of one particular religion: Christianity. What's more, throwing away all religious rules, is dangerous. These rules are simply needed for survival. Atheism is self-defeating, because abandoning these rules, leads to a situation in which people cannot form families and raise children. Atheism simply dies out.
I am actually not really doing Deen. Even though, the effect of writing about this, may be the similar to doing Deen. I do make mistakes about Islam, Judaism, and Christianity, and when I do, I concede the error. I think, however, that I am not mistaken on the essence. Really, feel free to tell me where I make mistakes concerning Islam. I did not grow up in a Muslim society, I don't live in a Muslim society, and I still don't know any Muslims. What I write about Islam, is solely based on the scriptures, and my point is actually not necessarily religious, but political. Writing more correctly about Islam can only help the point I am really trying to make: religion can be enslaving (to turn you into a slave of other men), but therefore, it can also be liberating (to turn you into a slave of God, and therefore prevent you from being a slave of other men). |
Posted By: crasss
Date Posted: 05 April 2007 at 7:30pm
Dear abu zaid, I am not teaching Islam. I am also not a source to learn Islam. I am just using the Quran, as a scripture, to make my political points. What i write probably sounds like an endorsement of the Quran, but that is only because Quran makes exactly the same point. I deeply resent polytheism (worshipping multiple gods), I deeply resent the idea of associating family members to God; I think idolatry and making pictures of God or non-existing family members of God, or of Prophets, and worshipping these pictures, are detestable practices, because sooner or later, all of this, will be abused by the ruling class. |
Posted By: Patty
Date Posted: 06 April 2007 at 5:58am
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"Catholics worship statues!" People still make this ridiculous claim. Because Catholics have statues in their churches, goes the accusation, they are violating God�s commandment: "You shall not make for yourself a graven image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: you shall not bow down to them or serve them" (Ex. 20:4�5); "Alas, this people have sinned a great sin; they have made for themselves gods of gold" (Ex. 32:31). It is right to warn people against the sin of idolatry when they are committing it. But calling Catholics idolaters because they have images of Christ and the saints is based on misunderstanding or ignorance of what the Bible says about the purpose and uses (both good and bad) of statues. Anti-Catholic writer Loraine Boettner, in his book Roman Catholicism, makes the blanket statement, "God has forbidden the use of images in worship" (281). Yet if people were to "search the scriptures" (cf. John 5:39), they would find the opposite is true. God forbade the worship of statues, but he did not forbid the religious use of statues. Instead, he actually commanded their use in religious contexts! God Said To Make Them People who oppose religious statuary forget about the many passages where God commands the making of statues. For example: "And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be" (Ex. 25:18�20). David gave Solomon the plan "for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all, all the work to be done according to the plan" (1 Chr. 28:18�19). David�s plan for the temple, which the biblical author tells us was "by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all," included statues of angels. Similarly Ezekiel 41:17�18 describes graven (carved) images in the idealized temple he was shown in a vision, for he writes, "On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim." The Religious Uses of Images During a plague of serpents sent to punish the Israelites during the exodus, God told Moses to "make [a statue of] a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it shall live. So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live" (Num. 21:8�9). One had to look at the bronze statue of the serpent to be healed, which shows that statues could be used ritually, not merely as religious decorations. Catholics use statues, paintings, and other artistic devices to recall the person or thing depicted. Just as it helps to remember one�s mother by looking at her photograph, so it helps to recall the example of the saints by looking at pictures of them. Catholics also use statues as teaching tools. In the early Church they were especially useful for the instruction of the illiterate. Many Protestants have pictures of Jesus and other Bible pictures in Sunday school for teaching children. Catholics also use statues to commemorate certain people and events, much as Protestant churches have three-dimensional nativity scenes at Christmas. If one measured Protestants by the same rule, then by using these "graven" images, they would be practicing the "idolatry" of which they accuse Catholics. But there�s no idolatry going on in these situations. God forbids the worship of images as gods, but he doesn�t ban the making of images. If he had, religious movies, videos, photographs, paintings, and all similar things would be banned. But, as the case of the bronze serpent shows, God does not even forbid the ritual use of religious images. It is when people begin to adore a statue as a god that the Lord becomes angry. Thus when people did start to worship the bronze serpent as a snake-god (whom they named "Nehushtan"), the righteous king Hezekiah had it destroyed (2 Kgs. 18:4). ------------- Patty I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future. |
Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 07 April 2007 at 10:09am
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Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem assalamu alaikum Most of the work, however, concerning the rules, had already been done before the Prophet (pbuh) already. Most islamic rules were listed in the Torah already. The Torah pre-exists the Quran. Even the fact that there is only One God, is put forward clearly and originally in the Torah. This cannot be a coincidence: Islam is the religion of Abraham, extended to the non-Jews. There are a few minor differences in the details, but the core is the same. It is essentially the message starting with Abraham and ending with Moses. This is wrong, you are talking about the basics and simple rules like dont drink alcohol or eat pork. Dont imagine from this that the Islamic legal system and thus islamic laws which are mainly derived rather than openly stated is anything like the jewish system. In Islam we have four methodologies [ie madhhabs] for deriving law from the Quran and sunnah this is how developed our legal system is. We paved the way for other legal systems. The torah is not even acknowledge to be the revelation of moses by muslim scholars, i still dont know who the authors of the torah are do you? clearly there are more than one but who are they. I am not teaching Islam. I am also not a source to learn Islam. I am just using the Quran, as a scripture, to make my political points. Then please abstain from doing so when a person seeks Islamic [rather than general] advice please leave it to those who know. This is no small matter to Sunni muslims i assure you we dont like to allow people to misguide muslims seeking islamic advice. with respect these posts are not welcome in threads such as these and should be confined to the Intrafaith or Islam for non muslim sections. This is the same for any other person in your position. ------------- Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness. |
Posted By: crasss
Date Posted: 07 April 2007 at 6:57pm
I understand the sensibilities. I think I actually posted the remarks about the Torah in the wrong thread. Sorry for that. |
Posted By: crasss
Date Posted: 07 April 2007 at 11:56pm
Actually, these subdivisions in Islam, such as Sunni and Shia, may still make sense from a social point of view, on the condition that one can demonstrate that one subdivision is less prone to abuse than another. Can you give arguments that Sunni Islam is more difficult to abuse, from a social point of view, than other subdivisions in Islam? |
Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 08 April 2007 at 6:52am
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Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem assalamu alaikum Can you give arguments that Sunni Islam is more difficult to abuse, from a social point of view, than other subdivisions in Islam? start a different thread and i may reply  ------------- Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness. |