crass, this is indeed a relevant topic cos it affects us all in some way or the other. i recently had an encounter with my fellow muslim businessman which left me feeling very sad. i bought a lounge suit from this shop december 2005. i paid R4999. it was a cash sale. after 3 days the lounge suite caved in. it fell apart. i went back to the businessman to complain about the lounge suite. all he could tell me was that he doesnt give guarnatees on his furniture. i was so upset.

i tried to reason with him but to no avail. he just refused to listen and wouldnt do anything to help. i was very disheartened.

eventually i went to the local ulema concil for advise . they contatced the bussinessman and he still refused to refund me my money. after 2 long years, he has only given me back R1500 out of R4900. the lounge suite is with him. i got a moving van and got it delivered to him a week after it fell apart. i am ashamed of the business practices of some of our fellow muslims. its sad that a non muslim shop will give u guarantees and will be willing to give u after sales services and will look into complaints and stuff, but some of our fellow muslims dont care. once they get the money, they care less about the customer.

this same businessman went for Hajj last year. ive heard that many other customers are disgruntled cos he has sold them defective stuff and he refuses to take it back or do anyhting about complaints. its sad when money becomes the root of evil and its people like this that give muslims a bad name. i have now left the matter in the hands of Allah. may justice be done.

rookaiya wrote: its sad that a non muslim shop will give u guarantees and will be willing to give u after sales services and will look into complaints and stuff.

rookaiya wrote: its sad when money becomes the root of evil and its people like this that give muslims a bad name. i have now left the matter in the hands of Allah. may justice be done.

Rookaiya, in this case, we may decline to attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by st**idity or maladministration. He probably didn't know the lounge suit would turn out to be bad, and he may not have been able to return it to the wholesaler or to the factory. So, he chose the easy way out, and left the buck with you, since you are probably the weakest party in the whole story.

Apparently, he is building up a bad reputation for his shop. The problem that you have with him, may very well be part of entire pattern that alienates not only you from his business. Sooner or later, that will affect his business.

In the One God I trust. And in nothing else. It is safe to assume that everything else will tend to go wrong. So, I expect dealings to go wrong, with Muslims too.

You've probably tried to put all possible additional pressure on him to refund you.

You may try to get the furniture back, keep the partial refund, and have the furniture repaired, if it can be repaired? That may be an alternative solution... Or there may still be another alternative solution that doesn't involve to get more money back, but still improves your situation.

Ok. In the future, how can I avoid such thing to happen? Let's assume I want to buy furniture. I assume that it will fall apart and be of no good quality. I think this is the correct starting point. It will be no good. I just don't believe it. My fundamental beliefs are strictly limited to the One God. This seller is not the One God, so I cannot believe him. So, it is up to the seller to take away some of my distrust in his furniture, because I assume it will fall apart. I don't need to tell him that, because I don't want to offend him, but that is what I think.

How can he take away some of my distrust? Not by asking me to believe him anyway. I cannot believe him, because I only believe in the One God, so how can I believe him? Therefore, he must come up with some other evidence than simply asking me to believe what he says. He says it is good furniture. How does he back up these claims? The more  information independent from him, he can produce to back up these claims, the more unlikely he is just making this up to make a sale.

Can I believe someone's claims? Preferably not. The more there is at stake, the less I can believe someone's claims.

A good furniture seller will tell me, for example, that there are 17 quality claims that a good piece of furniture has to satisfy. The furniture he is selling, safisfies these 17 claims, because he can demonstrate one by one that each claim is true. You can see this confirmed, preferably independently. Another furniture seller will tell me that there 15 such claims, which correspond more or less to the 17 I've heard before, and he can also demonstrate one by one that these claims are true.

It is always a good idea to ask the seller why his furniture is good, and someone else's furniture is bad, because then you also get a better idea why his furniture is bad.

The solution is not to believe in brand names, even though brand names may have a vested interest in spreading a reputation for good quality. Any unsuspecting belief in something else than the One God will invariably turn out to be wrong and eventually be abused. Therefore, even reputable brands have to prove their claims. The more something that is not the One God, is being generally trusted, the more dangerous it will eventually turn out to be.

The problem is that other people are often easier believers than I am. So, the seller will prefer to sell to someone who can be convinced more easily than myself. This is a problem. I constantly try to reduce my beliefs in other things than the One God, while other people may happily accept to increase these beliefs, because life it easier in that way, until these unwarranted beliefs eventually fire back, of course.

So, sometimes I am pushed into believing things against my will, and to hide my disbelief, in order to get along, but I really don't like that. So, for these reasons, once in a while, I also end up in a similar situation you unfortunately got dragged into.

my whole point in this is that muslims are supposed to be honest and trustworthy. we have the Prophet Muhammad PBUH as our example. if he is selling something, he has a duty to ensure that its of good quality in keeping with the high price. he needs to get a guarantee from his supplier that if the goods are not what they appear to be, then he will have a right of recourse. he needs to think of his customers and find ways of retaining customers as well. trying to make a quick buck will ruin him in the long run, cos hes stepped on many toes and has "robbed"  many  customers of their hard earned cash.

today, i support many non muslim shops and outlets. its not cos im a traitor to my fellow muslims, but its encounters like these that make me feel that its sometimes wiser to do business with a non muslim. in many instances ive found that the larger chain stores, u pay more, but u have peace of mind. u have a guarantee and should anything go wrong, they are willing and able to help you, even refund u if necessary.yet with some of our fellow muslims, one is afraid to part with their money cos once the deal is sealed, u one your own. they dont care what problems u encounter and are unwilling to help. im not gonna generalise and blame all muslim business men based on this one man, but generally where i live (SOUTH AFRICA), muslims have a bad reputation when it comes to business. they are seen as money hungry and dishonest and this paints islam in a very dim view especially to non muslims. as muslims we should take heed of this, especailly when we do business.

As Salamu Alaikum

Sister Rookaiya, sometimes we judge people by our bad experiences and then bundle all - every one together without giving any thought to our words or actions.

I am a Muslimah, a South African and also come from a business family. Thanks for the sisterhood, brotherhood that Islam enjoins upon us and also destruction of unity.

Muslims like everyone else are humans. When Muslims do something wrong all hell breaks loose. Good behaviour is part of human nature and not restricted only to Muslims. It is just like only Muslims are the terrorist, only Muslims are the thieves, only Muslims����..only Muslims.

We have become our own enemies.

Take care

Salams

salaams

the only reason why i would attack the behaviour of my fellow muslim is because i expect better behaviour from him or her. as muslims we are supposed to be honest and trustworthy. its a shame that a muslim will do business this way with a fellow muslim or even non muslims for that matter. where are our priorities. for someone to be so untrustworthy, yet go for hajj, and have people cursing u becos of your business dealings. that is not acceptable at all. for me all hell did break loose cos i dont expect such behaviour from my fellow muslim. i dont and i wont condone it either.

rookaiya wrote: salaams the only reason why i would attack the behaviour of my fellow muslim is because i expect better behaviour from him or her. as muslims we are supposed to be honest and trustworthy. its a shame that a muslim will do business this way with a fellow muslim or even non muslims for that matter. where are our priorities. for someone to be so untrustworthy, yet go for hajj, and have people cursing u becos of your business dealings. that is not acceptable at all. for me all hell did break loose cos i dont expect such behaviour from my fellow muslim. i dont and i wont condone it either.

As Salamu Alaikum

That is the problem with people today they only expect only Muslims to be honest and trustworthy.

No sister, All and I repeat All Humans are supposed to be honest, trustworthy, loving, caring etc. Ask the Christians who take part in this forum.

His going for Haj has nothing to do with his honesty or dishonesty, that is an invitation from Allah and he has to answer only to Allah for his misconduct in this world, and the acceptance of his Haj or any other religious duties is between him and His Lord. It has nothing absolutely nothing to do with you.

When are Muslims going to learn to forgive Muslims and get on with helping each other.

Remember people who curse other, get cursed in return. What goes around comes around.

Salams

Sign*Reader wrote: What good is ulema council if it doesn't have the enforcement arm behind it? I got burnt in a business partnership cuz the business partner kept my wife impressed with his constant show of religiosity(about Allah & his Prophet) while he cheated us out in the tune of a third of million dollars. And my wife being too trusting of Muslims cuz of her religiosity I am left holding the bag. Our own relationship went down to point of breakup. Now I say do not deal with Muslims or trust Muslims; if you have to do it once after verifying twice. And  always get  the  contract in writing. How can you expect justice from Muslims when they quit justice and Allah quit on them and they became colonized by the west. The way most Muslims behave it is doesn't look like the free people behavior

As Salamu Alaikum

Well it seems like the only dishonest, people in the world are Muslims.  

So brother, from your argument, I don�t think I would trust your wife either because if a religious person left you with an empty bag sooner or later your religious wife will do the same.

Wa Alaikum Salam

Alwardah wrote: Sign*Reader wrote: What good is ulema council if it doesn't have the enforcement arm behind it? I got burnt in a business partnership cuz the business partner kept my wife impressed with his constant show of religiosity(about Allah & his Prophet) while he cheated us out in the tune of a third of million dollars. And my wife being too trusting of Muslims cuz of her religiosity I am left holding the bag. Our own relationship went down to point of breakup. Now I say do not deal with Muslims or trust Muslims; if you have to do it once after verifying twice. And  always get  the  contract in writing. How can you expect justice from Muslims when they quit justice and Allah quit on them and they became colonized by the west. The way most Muslims behave it is doesn't look like the free people behavior As Salamu Alaikum Well it seems like the only dishonest, people in the world are Muslims.   So brother, from your argument, I don�t think I would trust your wife either because if a religious person left you with an empty bag sooner or later your religious wife will do the same. Wa Alaikum Salam

WAS

786

theres no point being defensive and talking about other dishonest people. its up to us as muslims to identify our own shortcomings and try and better ourselves. and i disagree with u alwardah. his going to hajj has everything to do with me and all the others he has robbed of money. its with our hard earned cash that he enriched himself and was able to go for hajj.

if we as muslims dont set standards for ourselves and compare ourselves with the rest of mankind, then why should we even go to jannah or why should we consider ourselves the best of creation. if Islam is not our way of life and we dont follow the example of the Prophet PBUH , then  why should we even expect the Prophet PBUH to intercede on our behalf. what have we done to earn these favours that we think we are entitled to.

if someone has wronged me personally, that some one has to ask me for forgiveness cos hes wronged me. he cant ask Allah SWT to forgive him and disregard me. as long as he doesnt ask me to forgive him, then he will be held accountable for the wrongdoing against me.

why is it that when people are going for Hajj, they go to everyone they know ans ask for maaf if they have wronged anyone. why do this? why even bother about it, if you can merely wrong a person and take away their rights and then ask Allah to forgive u, and disregard the person u have wronged.

As Salamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu

I am not referring to anyone particular in this thread but once again appealing to my dear brothers and sisters in Islam avoid negativity towards each other. When we refer to Muslims as such and such, then we are also included in that statement, as we are Muslims as well.  By saying, �I am not going to deal with Muslims anymore,� you are really telling people don�t trust me too, as I am a Muslim.�

Only Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala is PERFECT.

Good behaviour towards other human beings is a right upon each other. As Muslims we should have more refined manners, but we don�t, because we are not practising our Islamic duties in the true spirit as Allah intended.  Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala tells us in the Glorious Qur'an:

So forgive them and overlook (their misdeeds) verily Allah loves Al-Muhsinin (good doers) (Surah Al-Ma�idah 5: 13)

Although the disbelievers were referred to in this statement at the time of its revelation, many scholars today quote this Ayah to remind us to overlook the misdeeds of our Muslim brothers.

As an Ummah we have reached the lowest level of our Iman (our faith). Wealth brings with it destruction as fear of Allah leaves the heart of a believer. Haya is lost so is honesty and integrity. We forget that one day we will definitely die; we forget that we will one day be accountable for all our actions. We forget that we have two angels constantly writing every action we do, every thought we think, every feeling we hide in our hearts.

It is unfortunate, that our rights will be usurped from time to time by our brothers and sisters in Deen. But by criticising them in public we are harming ourselves (the Ummah) more than them. (the individual person).

Every soul will be accountable for his good and bad deeds. Have you forgotten that your grievance will be definitely settled in the Hereafter? You will be abundantly rewarded by Allah.

Prophet Muhammad (Sallallahu 'Alayhi wa Sallam) said:

None of you truly believes until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself and he dislikes for him what he dislikes for himself. (Al-Bukhari and Muslim)

The believer with respect to another believer is like a building; one part strengthens and reinforces the other. (Al-Bukhari and Muslim)

No slave conceals another slave in this world except that Allah conceals (his faults) on the Day of Resurrection. (Muslim)

When we study the Glorious Qur'an and the Sunnah, we find the correct manner to deal with someone who usurped our rights is to forgive and have patience. Our rights will definitely be addressed in the Hereafter. We should make Dua that Allah replaces our loss with something better.

However if someone does approach you seeking advice regarding a brother and your rights have being usurped by him in any way then you should not keep quiet but advise the person seeking information accordingly.

Thank Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala (Alhamdulillah! Alhamdulillah! Alhamdulillah!), that you are not the one who has usurped the rights of another and pray to HIM to protect you always from committing such a sin.

�O my son! If it be (anything) equal to the weight of a grain of mustard seed, and though it be in a rock, or in the heavens or in the earth, Allah will bring it forth. Verily Allah is Latifun-Khabirun (Subtle, Well-Aware) (Surah Luqman 31: 16)

Wa Alaikum Salam wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu

alwardah i cant argue nor disagree with what u have said, seeing that u have backed ip up with irrefutable proof. it just goes to show that in moments of weakness and anger, i blurted out stuff and cursed this man and then said bad things about Muslims, when i myself am muslim too. its unacceptable and i have nothing more to say about my own behaviour in this whole issue. i shouldnt have even brought it up cos its not in my place to expose his wrongdoing. i was mad and needed to vent but thats no excuse. it takes a high level of imaan to do what u have stated above alwardah and thats what we as muslims should strive towards. its not always easy, but its worth it.

to go against ones desires for revenge and retribution and forgive a wrongdoer and patiently endure....thats very difficult and i havent reached that level yet. i aspire towards it, but im still far from it.

As'salamualaikum WA Rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu

It seems to me that Rookaiya expressed all her anguish about the one who cheated her, over Alwardah.

 Rookaiya just remember that even we been a human. must have commited sins be it knowingly or unknowingly. Lets learn to forgive others.I know its difficult for u. Don't you remember the hadith that if we forgive someone then even our sins are firgiven by Allah SWT,on the day of judgement. Yes, unless you forgive him, he accountable for his act. But once when u forgive him JUST  EXPERIENCE THE HAPPINESS IN YOUR HEART. You will feel as an happiest soul. since you are doing this only for the sake of Allah. I would like to thank Alwardah for her beautiful reminder too. Especially the lines

Good behaviour towards other human beings is a right upon each other. As Muslims we should have more refined manners, but we don�t, because we are not practising our Islamic duties in the true spirit .

Seekshideyath Wrote

Rookaiya just remember that even we been a human. must have commited sins be it knowingly or unknowingly. Lets learn to forgive others.I know its difficult for u. Don't you remember the hadith that if we forgive someone then even our sins are firgiven by Allah SWT,on the day of judgement. Yes, unless you forgive him, he accountable for his act. But once when u forgive him JUST  EXPERIENCE THE HAPPINESS IN YOUR HEART. You will feel as an happiest soul. since you are doing this only for the sake of Allah.

Bro. We can get the happiness on forgiving the other mistakes only when some one realize that he/ she cheated some one, and seeking for the forgiveness from him or her. Otherwise if some one do the wrong and still standing on his wrong doing, and we move to forgive his/ her cheat ness, it will not put any positive impact on his / her character/ behave until he / she not realized what they did it was wrong. in some cases it will impact reverse and might be cheater or robber get courage that if i will do again same no on will ask me but simply they will forgive like prior.

As Salamu Alaikum

I am not generalizing but if you think me doing that will shake some out of their slumber so be it.

Brother SignReader no one will wake up from their slumber you just gave more ammunition to our enemies. Alhamdulillah! You did realize that what has happened has happened thru the Will of Allah.

Sister Rookaiya, we all need to vent sometimes. I type a long letter to myself and then delete it. No one gets hurt.

In the West, that is: the government, the schools, the pension system, the supermarkets, the banks, et cetera. These things attract so much trust, that they simply must collapse. All things that are taken for granted, are the first and foremost candidates for blowing up in our face, exactly because they are so trusted. That kind of trust can only last for some time, before it becomes completely abused.

Sister/brother Crass I total agree with your statement, but not only in the west, in the east, north, south everywhere- globally.

This is a reminder to myself firstly and then to everyone else. Maybe, just maybe we are forfeiting our rights before Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala on the Day of Judgment. Maybe just maybe Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala will tell us �What rights are you claiming against so and so, you already took your rights by writing about him on the IC Forum.�

Can we take that chance? Do we really know what is awaiting us when we meet our Lord? Do we know how many of our deeds, which we regard as good deeds (Our Salah, our Siyam, our Zakat) have being accepted by Allah. Those who usurped our rights, financially or otherwise, will definitely pay and we will be recompensed for it, there not here. For me Rather there (in the Hereafter) than here.

All I ask you, dear brothers and sisters think before destroying yourselves and the Ummah with you.

May Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala show His Mercy on us, and keep us on the Path that pleases him. Ameen!

Wa Alaikum Salam

its hard to be a good muslim. to forgive those who have wronged u and are still arrogant about it and they dont even seek your forgiveness. i have a hard heart and im trying my best to soften it up

theres someone who wronged me so badly 3 years ago and i cant find it in myself to forgive her. its cos shes so arrogant about how she destroyed my marriage and she goes around bragging about what shes done. i just cant forgive her. to add insult to injury, she sent me an email insulting me and telling me all sorts of wicked stuff. i was so mad. thinking of her makes me mad. i want to let go of the anger cos its hurting me too. how do i forgive someone who shows no remorse. im at a loss. im even ashamed to admit that when i pray i wish her ill for all that she has and is currently putting me through

how does on get their heart to soften when its filled with pain and anger and  a need for vengence.

Alwardah

His going for Haj has nothing to do with his honesty or dishonesty, that is an invitation from Allah and he has to answer only to Allah for his misconduct in this world, and the acceptance of his Haj or any other religious duties is between him and His Lord. It has nothing absolutely nothing to do with you.

Sister Allah is never giving the invitation of such kind of black sheep who are cheating, who are getting the money by sucking the blood of poor people and doing many hajjs to show that they are very  religious  and having the fear of Allah, they are not going for hajj but u can say for picnic. U right that what ever a person is doing this is the case between him and his lord. But if some one cladding himself by the religiosity and deceive some one like happened with Bro. Sign Reader, then this case will not only between Allah and the subjected but also involved the others, then what Alllah says that I can forgive u if u play foul with my obligations but I will not forgive if u  do wrong with other human until the particular affecting will not forgive.  

u said that nothing doing his honesty or dishonesty with the hajj, this is not right concept, it is worst if some one bearing beard on his face, doing five time prays, going hajjs but after all he is deliberately involving to cheating the people, he is not cheating any one but Allah Almighty. Bcz one sided he is promising with his lord during different worships that i will not do any thing which u forbid and the next moment he is doing all which is prohibited.

U know why we Muslim going to down day by day only for due to hypocrisy, we are not doing what we are saying. I am not generalizing but majority of us. Alas  

As Salamu Alaikum

How do you claim your rights from someone?

1. Confront him and claim your rights from directly from him.

2. You can try legal action against him. But today even in a court of law the guilty are always rewarded and the victims are further victimised.

3. Or you tell the person who has usurped your rights that you are deferring your claims to the Higher Court on the Day of Judgment, where no injustice will occur. You don�t tell him I am forgiving you. Or the contrary you remind him that sooner or later he has to settle your claim. Remind him also that for him it will be better in this world, now. If he still refuses then let the matter be, your reward awaits you with Allah.

Forgiving someone for Allah�s Sake is in the heart and Allah knows your intention and He will reward you with something better both in this world and in the Hereafter.

Wa Alaikum Salam

As Salamu Alaikum

Sister Rookaiya May Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala bless you with Sabr Ameen!

I know it is very difficult to forgive someone, Insha Allah I pray that the more you study the different aspects of the Qur'an and Sunnah, your heart will become very forgiving. Work on making yourself a better Muslimah both inside and out. My Duas are with you.

Brother Mohammad, I don�t think you have read my other posts. Whatever happens in our lives is by the Will of Allah? You say that Allah does not invite such people there then you are denying Allah�s Decree.

We are so busy judging people by our standards we fail to realise that we are also being judged by others by their standards.

U know why we Muslim going to down day by day only for due to hypocrisy, we are not doing what we are saying. I am not generalizing but majority of us. Alas 

I think I already mentioned the reason why we are going down and down. We don�t fear Allah anymore.

Wa Alaikum Salam

How did this conversation go from being the social impact of religion to judging some Muslim dude that sells garbage furniture?

I think the ultimate mistake is expecting higher standards from Muslim people than from non-Muslim people.  What makes you think that someone who calls himself Muslim is a better person? Muslims may claim that they look out for one another but that's poppy-cock.  They are just as selfish as any other people.

The Quran alludes to hyprocrites very often.  People who call themselves Muslim but are actually not.  So my view is deal cautiously with everyone irrespective of their religion.  Only through the development of a long standing relationship with people can you establish a form of trust. 

its hard to be a good muslim. to forgive those who have wronged u and are still arrogant about it and they dont even seek your forgiveness. i have a hard heart and im trying my best to soften it up

He's still arrogant then its his problem. Since he has no fear of God,he's such. But Rookaiya you are not such, as far as we know u from your posts. Why shud we spoil our character for him? We cannot force you to forgive him, since as far as we know the problem , you are no where wrong. Its tough to forgive, i know that but when we do that for the sake of Allah then we can gather that spirit to forgive. Try that sister. Take the life of Prophet SAWS and the other sahabas. For instance when all the believers were tortured to the extremes by the quraysh, they migrated and very soon in the battle of Badr, these same people who tortured the believers extremely were now captives. Did we take revenge? No. I mean to say even after suffering such tortures, they were left with a ransom depending on there status. And even when the believers entered Makkah, triumphantly, we did not seek revenge. Instead they were forgiven. What are we to learn out of these stories. Certainly u are unjustified but try to forget and forgive.

Brother Mohammad, I don�t think you have read my other posts. Whatever happens in our lives is by the Will of Allah? You say that Allah does not invite such people there then you are denying Allah�s Decree.

Sister I will not do agree with ur understanding,  some thing is happening is different than doing some thing deliberately, we have to differentiate between happen and do some thing with the understanding. For example if some suffer suddenly in heart attack this can be happened by Allah but if some one drink and due to the access of drink he fall in the any problem so will we consider that this was happen by the Allah will. Similarly Suppose someone rape a girl should we consider that this happened by Allah Will. No sister this is not Allah will but this is due to our wrong doing.

Allah Create human superior among all of his creations. What is that superiority, this is the sense, this is the power of thinking that we can know or understand what is wrong or what is right. So Allah Almighty shown us through his commandments that this is the right & this is the wrong, but Allah not force someone to do this or that, this option granted us to choice, and we have to decide that which way we will select.

U said that u denying the Allah decree, please can u give me the any reference where Allah said that u come to visit me no matter what is and how is your source of earning. Allah Almight tells us that u come to visit on the sacred place with your hard / proper earning not by cheating the others by sucking the blood of poor people.

"We are so busy judging people by our standards we fail to realise that we are also being judged by others by their standards."

Sister we are neither trying to judging the people nor this is our intention but just we are crying being a muslim on our shortcomings.

As Salamu Alaikum Brother Mohammad

We will not hijack this thread but start another one on Qadar and Qadaa.

This conversation we are having has also being pre-creed some 50 thousand years before Adam (Alayi Salam) was created.

Just to mention the matter about drinking and heart attack both happens thru the Will of Allah but thru different causes.

I am still studying this subject, Insha Allah we can help each other here.

Sister we are neither trying to judging the people nor this is our intention but just we are crying being a muslim on our shortcomings.

This is what I have being saying along. I don't think you read my other post before posting your comments. Saying that a person is going for haj with haram earnings - and is not going for Haj but a picnic that is judging someone's intention, in my books anyway.

I will come back to later on the Qadaa and Qadar after I organise my notes.

Salams

crasss wrote: Sign*Reader wrote: What good is ulema council if it doesn't have the enforcement arm behind it? Calling for government to intervene, will yield exactly that: they will intervene. And the solution is usually worse than the problem, because then it is not just another businessman that will rip us off, but the government too. Will the government actually solve the initial problem? No, usually not. So, now we end up with one more party to rip us off.

 According to Ali� the scale of justice are the prerogative of Almighty which he hath set for man , wherefore do not contradict in his justice but establish his scales of justice, that is how you will be helpers in his dominion.

If you have a justice system the government shall be under the gavel of the judge.

The judge is supposed to adjudicate the between the parties based upon the evidence in the civil cases. The Government has no role in it except provide marshaling the orders.

I can�t tell what country you dwell in to be so cynical about the process!

crasss wrote: Sign*Reader wrote: I got burnt in a business partnership cuz the business partner kept my wife impressed with his constant show of religiosity(about Allah & his Prophet) while he cheated us out in the tune of a third of million dollars. And my wife being too trusting of Muslims cuz of her religiosity I am left holding the bag. Instead of listening to someone saying that he is a Muslim, why do so few people seem to do the reasonable thing and rather listen to other people saying that he is a Muslim? If people generally attach unquestioning belief to the statement that someone says that he is a Muslim, this belief will automatically be abused by people clamouring that they are Muslims in order to abuse that belief. This observation can be generalized.

crasss wrote: Anything that people attach unsuspecting belief to, beyond or next to the One God, is a dangerous belief that will collapse on its believers. And the stronger such belief and the more people believe it, the louder and the more inevitable the crash will be. The more something is generally trusted, the more I distrust it, because it is this very trust that attracts distrustable phenomena.

The gullibility was based on the man�s swearing upon Allah and his Prophet and my wife would not listen any of my misgivings till she saw the business�s bottom falling off.

The best policy in business is  keep the religion out of the contractual context and document everything related to partnership.

If my wife had seen my way and hiring an attorney and taking the so called brothers to court would be such a cinch to get all the monies and probably jail time also. But now the statute of limitation ran out cuz being the nice gall my wife was.

BTW even in case we act as nice Muslim folks and forgive & forget, it doesn�t work that way in the business world the revenue service would like to know the sob story�s detail with all the transaction details and documentations anyways , that burden is still on us. And we are scrambling for that.

crasss wrote: Therefore, the trusted "institutions" must inevitably collapse, exactly because they are too trusted. In the West, that is: the government, the schools, the pension system, the supermarkets, the banks, et cetera. These things attract so much trust, that they simply must collapse. All things that are taken for granted, are the first and foremost candidates for blowing up in our face, exactly because they are so trusted. That kind of trust can only last for some time, before it becomes completely abused. To put it differently: The very purpose of trust is to be abused.

I don�t know what are you talking about be specific.

So far super market and banks are concerned, it all depends upon the demography. No body takes these things for granted, these market services some one will take care of them if there is any money to be made. The super market would not survive if the meat they sold was bad and caused food poisoning, the owners will be looking at the law suit and they will be taken to the cleaners.

The schools are also demography based and paid for the home owner tax base, You need to be explicit what are saying, may be true where you live�what country is that?