http://www.rawa.org/3women.htm - http://www.rawa.org/3women.htm

"KABUL, May 2 (Reuters) - Authorities have found the bodies of three Afghan women, one of whom worked for an aid group, who were raped, strangled and dumped with a warning for women not to work for such groups, an official said on Monday."

http://www.rawa.org/jail-women.htm - http://www.rawa.org/jail-women.htm

"Afghan women still in chains under Karzai

Kabul's central jail holds female prisoners whose only 'crime' is their refusal to be second-class citizens. Ramita Navai reports"

Kim,

It's amazing what we can do with the news today. A DIY. If we pick and chose reports we can form some interesting images of countries. But lets not attribute and generalize it to be something of religion or citizenship... 

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,15340876-2,00.html - http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,15340876-2,00.html

The 57-year-old Brisbane man, who cannot be named for legal reasons, pleaded guilty in the Brisbane District Court today to a swag of charges including maintaining a relationship with a child under 12, rape, and possessing child pornography.

Queensland Director of Public Prosecutions Leanne Clare told the court the man abused four boys between 2002-04: a five-year-old, 11-year-old twins, one of whom was intellectually disabled, and a 12-year-old boy who was his nephew.

Ms Clare said police found 19 compact discs at the man's home containing nearly 4000 images involving "the most extreme level of child sexual abuse"...

kim! wrote: Oooh yeah, but my point was that the American invasion has not helped. Just like we mostly guessed it wouldn't. Like in Iraq with the insurgents who refuse to let the Iraqi people get on with trying to imrpove their lives. Hopefully this guy will be put away forever. Kim...

Well it hasn't helped the US build its pipeline from Turkmenistan to the Indian Ocean yet. The negotiations broke down between Chevron and the Taliban during the summer of 2001, so the US took over the whole country. And what do you know--Karzai used to be a consultant for Chevron.

Yusuf. wrote: [Well it hasn't helped the US build its pipeline from Turkmenistan to the Indian Ocean yet. The negotiations broke down between Chevron and the Taliban during the summer of 2001, so the US took over the whole country. And what do you know--Karzai used to be a consultant for Chevron.

BINGO!!! And where is he now, that all those promised mountains of gold have yet to be delivered.

As to the issue of the women, we have witnessed nothing, only relying on the media propaganda machine.  It is a sin to take the word of the enemy as truth without verification from reliable sources.

I must interject regarding women who flaunt the Shariah, women who work for agencies who claim to help the people, only to work against them as spies and mischief makers, women who take the kufaar as their awliah, women who go on radio and broadcast music, women who appear beautified and uncovered on television beside men and behave like the kufaar in a nation that has attempted to install pure Shariah (even though they haven't had a chance to properly educate the masses and most citizens are still illiterate, not only in reading and writing, but in knowledge of their own Islam)... they made their beds, let them die in them.

I am a woman, and I am a Muslimah.  Any woman who makes war against the Shariah makes war against me. Don't expect me to mourn them or waste my time looking for their killers.

UmTayyab wrote: ]   I must interject regarding women who flaunt the Shariah, women who work for agencies who claim to help the people, only to work against them as spies and mischief makers, women who take the kufaar as their awliah, women who go on radio and broadcast music, women who appear beautified and uncovered on television beside men and behave like the kufaar in a nation that has attempted to install pure Shariah (even though they haven't had a chance to properly educate the masses and most citizens are still illiterate, not only in reading and writing, but in knowledge of their own Islam)... they made their beds, let them die in them. I am a woman, and I am a Muslimah.  Any woman who makes war against the Shariah makes war against me. Don't expect me to mourn them or waste my time looking for their killers.

mmmm...Sounds like gossip and slander to me!

Why so harsh? Human nature compels people to rebel against repression. eg: Force women to hide and be plain and be silent and all they will want to do is go out and be beautiful and be heard.

Kim...

Assalamu alaikum,

Ameen, Sister UmTayyab, Ameen!  Obedience to Allah over ego is a concept non-Muslims have a very hard time with.

Peace, ummziba.

kim! wrote: UmTayyab wrote: ]   I must interject regarding women who flaunt the Shariah, women who work for agencies who claim to help the people, only to work against them as spies and mischief makers, women who take the kufaar as their awliah, women who go on radio and broadcast music, women who appear beautified and uncovered on television beside men and behave like the kufaar in a nation that has attempted to install pure Shariah (even though they haven't had a chance to properly educate the masses and most citizens are still illiterate, not only in reading and writing, but in knowledge of their own Islam)... they made their beds, let them die in them. I am a woman, and I am a Muslimah.  Any woman who makes war against the Shariah makes war against me. Don't expect me to mourn them or waste my time looking for their killers. mmmm...Sounds like gossip and slander to me! Why so harsh? Human nature compels people to rebel against repression. eg: Force women to hide and be plain and be silent and all they will want to do is go out and be beautiful and be heard. Kim...

Because I know women's nature, as I am a woman.  And I know what a woman is capable of when she has no respect for herself, her society and her Creator, because I was that kind of woman, so I think I have the right to judge that women can be the ugliest fitna on earth.  They spoil the family, spoil the society and when they attain power over their parents and husbands, they are never satisfied to remain patient and balanced, they become oppressive and selfish and corrupt for attention and validation.

They understood their society.  If they choose to make fitna, who am I to feel sorry?

Assalamu Alaikum Umm Tayeb

Jazakallahu khair for your strong and truthful reply.

UmTayyab wrote: I am a woman, and I am a Muslimah.  Any woman who makes war against the Shariah makes war against me. Don't expect me to mourn them or waste my time looking for their killers.

I total agree with you for there is no compromise in Islam.

Oh Allah help those who fight for your sake and are trying to make Your Word the highest. Ameen!

Wassalam

Your sister in Islam

Umm Usama

As-salaamu'alaikum,

Looks like today's battles will be won by women...

That is the real jihad

I agree with Mujaahida and UmTayeb

I and i totally disagree with KIM!

Does anyone have some jihad sites they can share

Salam All,

One interesting thing is ignorance of the western population about socio-cultural background of area near and around Afghanistan. Among others, a typical way of living style in that region is totally different than they can even imagine it to be. Whatever they know is through what media tell them. Through this source, they often blame Taliban government of supressing the rights of women, but it would be more interesting to know the state of these rights before (through history) and after Taliban (the Karazi government). Do we find any change? If not, then is it legitimate to blame Taliban (may be for many other things, however) for all those social problems that existed before them and continued in their own tenure and is still prevalent in their society. Another interesting evidence to look upon for the social injustices/practices against women is the attached north western area of Pakistan where Taliban never ruled. The state of women in this part of Pakistan is the same (if not worst) than in the most part of Afghanistan. Though, Taliban might have added fuel to the fire, however, their practices were not very unfamiliar to their subjects.

I hope this would provide some alternate view for understanding the situation of Afghanistan and its neigbouring area. 

UmTayyab wrote:   Because I know women's nature, as I am a woman.  And I know what a woman is capable of when she has no respect for herself, her society and her Creator, because I was that kind of woman, so I think I have the right to judge that women can be the ugliest fitna on earth.  They spoil the family, spoil the society and when they attain power over their parents and husbands, they are never satisfied to remain patient and balanced, they become oppressive and selfish and corrupt for attention and validation. They understood their society.  If they choose to make fitna, who am I to feel sorry?

Why YES! Of course! How silly of me not to have seen it in the first place! WHile these women were trying to bring a touch of beauty and rebellion/strength into their lives - their lives of repression, of beatings, of silence, or starvation, of ugliness, of bombings and hate - they were ACTUALLY being very active Lipstick Terrorists!

Oh! How stupid of me! So _instead_ of helping these Afghan women, by giving them food, by giving them work and education (and, therefore, a means of sustenance) and by giving them safety and maybe even educating them and their societies in the TRUE ways of Islam (including protecting women and not beating them for superficial, trivial reasons), we should have been dropping MORE bombs on them!

I shall go and flog myself immediately.

By the way - do you just simply hate other women, or do you have to been seen to be this militant against them in order to hide doubts and weaknesses of your own?

Kim... 

AhmadJoyia wrote: Salam All, One interesting thing is ignorance of the western population about socio-cultural background of area near and around Afghanistan. Among others, a typical way of living style in that region is totally different than they can even imagine it to be. Whatever they know is through what media tell them. Through this source, they often blame Taliban government of supressing the rights of women, but it would be more interesting to know the state of these rights before (through history) and after Taliban (the Karazi government). Do we find any change? If not, then is it legitimate to blame Taliban (may be for many other things, however) for all those social problems that existed before them and continued in their own tenure and is still prevalent in their society. Another interesting evidence to look upon for the social injustices/practices against women is the attached north western area of Pakistan where Taliban never ruled. The state of women in this part of Pakistan is the same (if not worst) than in the most part of Afghanistan. Though, Taliban might have added fuel to the fire, however, their practices were not very unfamiliar to their subjects. I hope this would provide some alternate view for understanding the situation of Afghanistan and its neigbouring area.

At least a few of us out here in the wild West are aware of this and we make sure we spread the word to people - that it's not just the Taliban who have been repressing the Afghan women. I explain that women have had to wear burkhas for a LONG time outside of the cities, because the Northern Alliance guys abuse women too. Then I go on to tell them about the invasion of the Russians and how the Taliban were friends of and funded and trained by the US, etc, etc.

It's amazing to see some people's reactions. Specially when you explain it to Americans face to face.

Kim...

UmTayyab wrote: ............As to the issue of the women, we have witnessed nothing, only relying on the media propaganda machine.  It is a sin to take the word of the enemy as truth without verification from reliable sources. I must interject regarding women who flaunt the Shariah, women who work for agencies who claim to help the people, only to work against them as spies and mischief makers, women who take the kufaar as their awliah, women who go on radio and broadcast music, women who appear beautified and uncovered on television beside men and behave like the kufaar in a nation that has attempted to install pure Shariah (even though they haven't had a chance to properly educate the masses and most citizens are still illiterate, not only in reading and writing, but in knowledge of their own Islam)... they made their beds, let them die in them. I am a woman, and I am a Muslimah.  Any woman who makes war against the Shariah makes war against me. Don't expect me to mourn them or waste my time looking for their killers.

I think, before anyone start blaming the victims than their killers, its more prudent to atleast read the news that has been posted by the originator (Sis KIM). With presuppositions in favour of Taliban, this reply of your seems little meaningless especially once the report is read more thoroughly. The details of the report clearly rules out this atrociticity to be perpetuated by Talibans. Kindly note the highlighted and underlined text from this report. First of all it says "Aid workers in Afghanistan have been the target of Taliban insurgents, especially in the insurgency-plagued south and east of the country, but the three women were found in the northern province of Baghlan, where Taliban rebels are not active. "

Then it says "A group calling itself "Afghan Youths Convention" claimed responsibility for the killing, according to a caller who telephoned a Reuters reporter in northern Afghanistan. "

And finally it becomes more obvious that it can't be the work of a so called relegious group when the report says "A doctor in the city said forensic tests showed the three were raped and then strangled with a rope.". I hope this would help denounce the killings of innocent people working for the betterment of the desitutes. Rest Allah knows the best.

Ya akhi el aziz Kim has a 124% valid point. The US spin about saving the Afghan women did appeal to the perpetually "enslaved to 3rd class hard labour" women in the west.

Now, please, reckognise the real worth of our most beloved President. He was tricked to work for Cheveron by Ramzay Khalilzad and just for a few hours and once only. He is actually a classic Burger cook - owned a buger bar in the US. A German reporter has his photos in a chef's hat!!

To UmTayyab,

I really hope I just misread your post.  It sounded as though you thought AID RELIEF WORKERS got what they deserved by being RAPED and violently MURDERED???  You assume they are "spies and mischief makers", but how do you know they were not simply trying to fullfill their duty to Allah by helping others???  I am absolutely REPULSED that a fellow muslim would feel this way, let alone say it out loud.  I know the feminist movements have gotten way out of hand, but these were AID WORKERS!!  Risking their lives to help provide food, medical care, and other basic necessities which we are OBLIGATED to do as muslims.  How could you be such a cold, heartless woman?  All I can do is HOPE that when you said "women who flaunt the Sharia" that you were speaking generally, and not about these individual women.

In all honesty, I know you're not all stupid and I know some of your television isn't complete sh*te...but I wish we had more evidence of it over here. I'm so sick of the rubbish we get over here.

Mind you, I'm sick of Australian rubbish, too.

Kim...

b95000 wrote: You can explain all you want face to face.  These discussions don't lend themselves well to bipolar thinking.  Somehow, you think it is an easy thing to conduct geo-politics? [I'm referring here to the US position in the 80s visa vi the Russian invasion of Afghanistan.]  Or that you have all the answers...oh, yeah, we believe that as our faces drop in stunned amazement of all your perfect knowledge and at our perfect stupidity in comparison..please..

Brother, as I see it, its your own comments that sounds like "speechless" to the arguments presented. If you have any other view, it would be more prudent to be presented than simply turning away from it with such comments. Isn't it?

Fact remains that end can't justify the means. Also, whatever someone may call about the government of a country, question would remain open as what authority any outside country has, without the consent of UN,  to invade any other country on the world map. May it be Afghanistan, where no UN was involved at all, or be it Iraq, where totally false premise was used to misguide (intentionally or unintentionally) the whole world. Even after the false premise for Iraq now so open, arrogantly overstaying on that land, can only be viewed as law of Jungle where aggressors are considered to have law of "might is right".

You know, it has just this minute occured to me that if the US had let Russia overrun Afghanistan unhindered, without inventing and training the Taliban, etc, Afghanistan might _just_ be free of the influence of both Russia AND the US because of the fall of Communism in 1989-90.

Just like all those other former Soviet States! Sure, they might be poor, but I wonder what curcumstances would be like today?

Can the locals organise an Orange Revolution (ie: From WITHIN!) for Afghanistan, do you think?

Kim...

I don't think sis Kim is suggesting "more people to die" rather its her astute observation about the ultimate fate of USSR and emergence of new states without much bloodshed as opposed to what has been witnessed in Afghanistan.

Also, though my brother b95000 is apt in showing us the total voters to impress steady improvement in that country's political state, however, the human rights report is still pathetic where the same old warlords rule most of the land.

On the more, the only thing which may go in the credit of former government of Afghanistan is the effective control of opium poppy crop, the basic ingredient of most of drugs produced in the world. It is said that "Afghanistan's opium poppy production reached record high levels in 2004,.......". Here is the complete report  http://usinfo.state.gov/gi/Archive/2005/Mar/05-369889.html - http://usinfo.state.gov/gi/Archive/2005/Mar/05-369889.html

This is all happening when the American forces are still controlling the country. Is there any excuse for this? In a way, if one may view American forces as the biggest poppy growers of the world, it would not be very surprising.

AhmadJoyia wrote: I don't think sis Kim is suggesting "more people to die" rather its her astute observation about the ultimate fate of USSR and emergence of new states without much bloodshed as opposed to what has been witnessed in Afghanistan. Also, though my brother b95000 is apt in showing us the total voters to impress steady improvement in that country's political state, however, the human rights report is still pathetic where the same old warlords rule most of the land. On the more, the only thing which may go in the credit of former government of Afghanistan is the effective control of opium poppy crop, the basic ingredient of most of drugs produced in the world. It is said that "Afghanistan's opium poppy production reached record high levels in 2004,.......". Here is the complete report  http://usinfo.state.gov/gi/Archive/2005/Mar/05-369889.html - http://usinfo.state.gov/gi/Archive/2005/Mar/05-369889.html This is all happening when the American forces are still controlling the country. Is there any excuse for this? In a way, if one may view American forces as the biggest poppy growers of the world, it would not be very surprising.

Spin, twist, twist, spin...never viewing the positive, always highlighting the negative...interesting approach, that..does it feel intellectually fair and vigorous?

As to opium growth, sure there will be trade-offs and the current government and the Coalition and UN are aware of the problem - however, security is a main issue and that is another main issue and sure if people are scared to death or having death sentences over their heads they aren't going to risk the poppy growing...but when you introduce due process and not some shooting of women throught the head in soccer stadiums, for instance, or chopping off body parts for public spectacle, then there are certain trade-offs...I will take freedom in conjunction with responsibility over the gulags of the Taliban any day of the week...you won't?

Oh, that's right, you're only seemingly interested in the negative side that props up your views...too bad that...

b95000 wrote: AhmadJoyia wrote: I don't think sis Kim is suggesting "more people to die" rather its her astute observation about the ultimate fate of USSR and emergence of new states without much bloodshed as opposed to what has been witnessed in Afghanistan. Also, though my brother b95000 is apt in showing us the total voters to impress steady improvement in that country's political state, however, the human rights report is still pathetic where the same old warlords rule most of the land. On the more, the only thing which may go in the credit of former government of Afghanistan is the effective control of opium poppy crop, the basic ingredient of most of drugs produced in the world. It is said that "Afghanistan's opium poppy production reached record high levels in 2004,.......". Here is the complete report  http://usinfo.state.gov/gi/Archive/2005/Mar/05-369889.html - http://usinfo.state.gov/gi/Archive/2005/Mar/05-369889.html This is all happening when the American forces are still controlling the country. Is there any excuse for this? In a way, if one may view American forces as the biggest poppy growers of the world, it would not be very surprising.   Spin, twist, twist, spin...never viewing the positive, always highlighting the negative...interesting approach, that..does it feel intellectually fair and vigorous?

Viewing things from one eye is not a scholarly thing for most except few who want to live in dillusions.

As to opium growth, sure there will be trade-offs and the current government and the Coalition and UN are aware of the problem - however, security is a main issue ......

Oh, so you mean security in Afghanistan is still a problem even now? Hmm!! Do you have any clue as who else could be involved other than few remanants of Talibans? My dear, the same warlords are in power and the same old routine is in vogue. Nothing much has changed in that ill fated country except what your monocule would like to show you, though now the allied forces are in control.

........and that is another main issue and sure if people are scared to death or having death sentences over their heads they aren't going to risk the poppy growing...

Though I clearly don't support any regime, the fact is now the same people are in the delima of facing death for not growing Poppy for their warlords. The question remains what the allied forces doing to stop this cultivation. Now they must not have any excuse of ignoring it and not leaving it for others to do it.

but when you introduce due process and not some shooting of women throught the head in soccer stadiums, for instance, or chopping off body parts for public spectacle,........

What is this has to do with poppy crop? Hmm!! My brother is apt in congulmerating everything in the name of women's rights etc.

......... then there are certain trade-offs...I will take freedom in conjunction with responsibility over the gulags of the Taliban any day of the week...you won't?

What trade off with freedom? You mean no one knows who is growing this poppy crop and its real hard for the government to accuse them without evidence of doubt? I don't think this is the case. Everyone knows who are the culprits, but no one wants to displease the warlords in the "tradeoff" that they may turn to Taliban. It is this tradeoff that allies are selling the Opimum for the loyalities of these warlords.

Oh, that's right, you're only seemingly interested in the negative side that props up your views...too bad that...

I hope, if nothing else, one would like change his monocule in the light of the above facts of life in the "liberated" Afghanistan. 

B: Tell me how this comment is off...the Taliban ruled by fear, intimidation and murder.  No wonder when they threatened the poppy growers such spectacles as I described worked to keep the growing down...how tough is this to understand and then to try to spin it into a derogatory commentary on me personally?  Why do this?  Why spin and spin like this?  Let's deal with facts and realities, shall we sir?

Ok brother, let this be the issue as you wish to discuss. You have described that Taliban ruled by fear, intimidation and murder. Let us analyse it through little more rationality than emotionally (keeping the 9/11 factor away).

So, as far as their government is concerned, though they had all the bad things that they did that we all (including my self) accuse them of, but one thing that must be admitted is, that their government really implemented the law, without any political baisness etc. One can ofcourse lable this law to any kind of "draconion" law etc, but remember that its their own law that we must pay respect to any independant country as per norms of international mutual respect. No second country has any right to put their nose into their internal laws. Though we can critize them but we can't physically involve in their business to change their law untill or unless they themselves want to change it. Isn't it the ABC of democracy that we indebted to teach everyone. So, once you say they ruled with "intimidation, fear, and murder", I think, we are forgetting about our ABC of this lesson. Secondly, I don't know how can one call the implementation of law as "Murder" except through emotional rhetorics that our media has trumpted in our ears?

Now, coming to your allusion to the polls and hence freedom etc. Though, future of these events would essentially depend upon how long the allied forces are willing to stay "temporarily" over there (if not permanently), but the fact remain that history shows that "democracy" can't be implanted from outside but realised from within the society. Suffice is to know that barring few big cities of Afghanistan, or more specifically except the capital Kabul, there is hardly any place where people are yet ready to accept this concept.

As you rightly pointed out that a process of change of society can't be realised immediately, I would extend this to say that it takes centuries to change, but that too, provided the society itself want a change. Otherwise all implanted concepts would be rejected sooner the dose of chemotherapy (allied forces) is removed. I hope and wish that USA and its allies are not planning for the permanant occupation of the land. Are we? Are we in the making of yet another "Gotanamo bay" in Afghanistan? I don't think so. So, what is our purpose to over stay in that country? Where is our main objective to capture the head of the terrorist gone? In reality, it has gone to nowhere. Yes, all our efforst are to build strong Afghanistan, but was that really our main objective? I don't think so. If we couldn't maintain the law and order situation, just because we are compromising on our values, then its only futile to show the world as what temporary progress the country is making. Ground facts remain that the poor people of that country were suffering from the atrocities of their warlords, and they are still doing so. You point toward the future, but don't estimate how far this future is? Are you talking of few years (a very improbable picture), or of few decades or of few centuries (most likely situation)? Yet, lets hope for the best.

O my dear brother b95000 thanks for your reply though without replacing monocle. There is a difference of understanding when killing is "Murder" and when killing is "Punishment", I wish I didn't have to teach it to my brothers. If the killing is not according to law, it is simply a murder, otherwise its a "punishment". Kindly make a note of it. Therefore your reference to website detailing killings in the staduium etc is just what media made it appear as "Murders" but according to the witnesses present their, it was "Punishment".

Now coming to your understanding of imported democracy when you say

b95000 wrote: ...I realize that warlords are clinging on - but how long can they cling on with people voting and involved and moving into the 21st Century?  You say that people aren't willing to accept this - but what has been the alternative?  30 years war?  Are they willing to accept that?

..Afghanis are proud people, to be sure and they will rise to this challenge...

[moderator edited]

comparing Islam and shariah law to saddam hussein is not acceptable as well as Insulting the Islamic faith in general.

This is your second warning.

UmTayyab wrote: I must interject regarding women who flaunt the Shariah, women who work for agencies who claim to help the people, only to work against them as spies and mischief makers, women who take the kufaar as their awliah, women who go on radio and broadcast music, women who appear beautified and uncovered on television beside men and behave like the kufaar in a nation that has attempted to install pure Shariah (even though they haven't had a chance to properly educate the masses and most citizens are still illiterate, not only in reading and writing, but in knowledge of their own Islam)... they made their beds, let them die in them. I am a woman, and I am a Muslimah.  Any woman who makes war against the Shariah makes war against me. Don't expect me to mourn them or waste my time looking for their killers.

And they call me feisty!

Mabrooks on such a passionate post.

Perhaps I should frequent this site more often.