Alaikoam Salam

Brothers and Sister thank you for your dialogue!

In the case of a thief or anyone who commits a sin the first priority is to forgive as far as I have understood the sunah as then with forgiveness and educationa, counseling and consultation the person may learn better skills in how to cope with the challenges that caused them to sin in the first place and understand why they sinned also.

Because the truth is all Mankind is Muslim and if we killed everyone or cut off everyones hand thered be most of mankind dead and most of mankind crippled!

It says in the Quran to save a life is to save all mankind and therefor our first priority and objective is not to deliberately harm or cause someones death as that is supposed to be up to Allah and His time for our going to the next world is not to be confused with murder.

How can it be a the plan of Allah if someone kills someone intentionally how is that the will of Allah?

Especially when if that same person was educated, counseled and consulted towards better ways of doing things is their ignorance coicidence or just apathy on the part of mankind or themselves?

Essentially since we are all Muslim or ie the people in the process of submission or cooperation why is there not in this day and age more education, counseling and consultation services available for free or accessible so everyone may get the skills they need to be good people?

Allah guides whom He will to the right path but do we not also have to do a little assisting in this effort?

We have to volunteer  with community ifra strucutre and support services so they have the people to help the efforts at self development inshallah a great sorting out into groups.

Since as I said all life is in a state of Islam we are tested in our daily lives the same as Mohammed PBUH was in the caves and we have a duty to leave a lasting and wonderful legacy just like His PBUH.

Salam

Thank you for your patience!

Alaikoam Salam

Brothers and Sister thank you for your dialogue!

In the case of a thief or anyone who commits a sin the first priority is to forgive as far as I have understood the sunah as then with forgiveness and educationa, counseling and consultation the person may learn better skills in how to cope with the challenges that caused them to sin in the first place and understand why they sinned also.

No, the first priority is no to forgive. That may be in the church theory. But the church has no law. Not even of forgiveness. The god of the church does not forgive any sin. He takes revenge from his supposed son.

Would you say the same thing about a murderer??

Because the truth is all Mankind is Muslim and if we killed everyone or cut off everyones hand thered be most of mankind dead and most of mankind crippled!

If you killed everyone or cut off their hands...   That will never happen. Nobody will steal if you start some kind of punishment...

It says in the Quran to save a life is to save all mankind and therefor our first priority and objective is not to deliberately harm or cause someones death as that is supposed to be up to Allah and His time for our going to the next world is not to be confused with murder.

How can it be a the plan of Allah if someone kills someone intentionally how is that the will of Allah?

Especially when if that same person was educated, counseled and consulted towards better ways of doing things is their ignorance coicidence or just apathy on the part of mankind or themselves?

Essentially since we are all Muslim or ie the people in the process of submission or cooperation why is there not in this day and age more education, counseling and consultation services available for free or accessible so everyone may get the skills they need to be good people?

Counselling is being done. People are being informed not to kill or steal. But sometime they need some practical lesson too, not just theory...  Do you understand please?? All love is not necessary. Some bitter pill is also good or a smack from the mother.

Allah guides whom He will to the right path but do we not also have to do a little assisting in this effort?

We have to volunteer  with community ifra strucutre and support services so they have the people to help the efforts at self development inshallah a great sorting out into groups.

Since as I said all life is in a state of Islam we are tested in our daily lives the same as Mohammed PBUH was in the caves and we have a duty to leave a lasting and wonderful legacy just like His PBUH.

SalamThank you for your patience!

The problem is that in church theory, it is necessary to offer the other cheek when some one hits on one side. That was a good advice but it was good for that time. It was the very best advice under the circumstances, under foriegn rule against the spoiled co-religionists (Jews).

Islam does not teach that. Islam in Quran teaches that it is good to forgive when useful result is expected. If a useful result is not expected and the person will become more brave bent on more mischief then that person should be punished.

If you need the reference to that I will be able to provide it to you. Please do not mind anything. This is only a theoritical friendly discussion between. You pursue your own course as much as you like. But when it comes to Islam, we have to tell the Islamic teachings. Thanks.

 

Edited by amlhabibi2000 on 24 May 2007 at 7:18am

__________________
Judgement day passes in the moment we decide something needs attention & we take positive action. Then there will be a great sorting out of people into groups, Inspired by Surah 99 Ayat 1-8

Alaikoam Salam

Punishment is not really the correct word, correction is.

Correction does not mean using violence to stop or silence someone as that only makes the problem perculate underneath and the issues then come out through family violence or community violence.

That is why education, counseling and consultation is so key.

As I believe and understand the whole universe and world is in a state of Islam all knowledge comes from Allah as a test and He tests us like He tested all the Prophets of the past.

You may not agree with my beliefs but accept this is how I understand and believe in Islam.

That is why it is no coincidence that this is the time of the full fillment of Surah 99 and we/mankind will sort into skills development groups to learn skills we need to be good people, good families, good communities, good nations and a good world.

It is no coincidence that Allah has set many religions amongst us from which to choose the recipe we want to follow and it is no coincidence that these are all signs of the evolution of Islam.

Though it sounds cruel Allah indeed has plans for us and they do not include using violence or abuse of any kind to get our message out or across.

I have been working on this Dawah for some time now and inshallah I am succedding in the path of Allah believe it or not!

This was His plan for me and I would encourage anyone who is suffering from abuse or being an abuser to seek out in the community self development courses and especially parenting skills, relationship skills, anger and stress management skills, there is hope and we are that hope.

It is the plan of Allah and no coincidence about it that Allah wants all Mankind to enjoin as one Ummah and work together to solve our personal and world problems.  In this as I said all knowledge comes from Allah and we are tested with it.

Salam

  http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZNxmk873YYGB">   "......I am the Earth Personified...."  What is all this about?





http://smiley.smileycentral.com/download/index.jhtml?partner=ZSzeb114_ZNxmk873YYGB&utm_id=7922">

Salam Brothers and Sisters

Destiny my voice and the voice of all Mankind is beginning to be heard and the Earth personified is crying out and mankind is starting to ask what is wrong with her Ie her being.

I am just one voice for her.

It is no coincidence that when I read Surah 99 I understood what was needed.  It is my goal to full fill Surah 99 in my life time ie bring personal and world peace.

You can call me what ever you want just accept this is my Dawah, my service to Allah, my Mission.

It is part of the plan of Allah for me and everyone inshallah.

amlhabibi2000 wrote:   Salam Brothers and Sisters Destiny my voice and the voice of all Mankind is beginning to be heard and the Earth personified is crying out and mankind is starting to ask what is wrong with her Ie her being. I am just one voice for her. It is no coincidence that when I read Surah 99 I understood what was needed.  It is my goal to full fill Surah 99 in my life time ie bring personal and world peace. You can call me what ever you want just accept this is my Dawah, my service to Allah, my Mission. It is part of the plan of Allah for me and everyone inshallah.

 Good work that you have undertaken. I would like to know if you have been guided or ordered by Allah to do what you are doing?? Did you recieve any message from Allah about it  or about any other thing? I mean the revelation from Allah. Or you just thought that it was a good thing to do and you started on it??

You know how parties are formed?? Different political and welfare parties?? No Offence please.

Annie,

For as long as I have read your post it is quite difficult to critcize you, especially since most of your messages [despite some of them I may disagree with] are relatively positive. But Annie you must understand that to the Muslims that follow tradition, your rhetorical speech is heretical. I'm not here to judge you at all because I don't know you and even if I did I still have no right. I understand that you have a particular mission you are trying to fulfill and in that, trying to get us to follow the same road you are on. You must realize that we all are not the same and must follow our onw paths despite your "we are the world" speech.

God calls us in different directions and perhaps we may fulfill those spiritual deeds of God. With that being said allow your personal thoughts [which are completely opposite of the current discussion] be put to rest at another time. I hope you can focus on the current subject rather than diverting the attention. You must say, I have been polite to you thus far. Thank You.

Salam Alaikoam

Okay brother I will leave my mission and project on the side lines except to say to me my experience is no coincidence.

Everything is in the plan of Allah and He has tested us His servants with knowledge our history speaks of this.

Brother I realize also I can in no way ask anyone to follow my beliefs however I can ask that they be considered and appreciated for having come from the heart.

It is no coincidence that each religion has brought a recipe of guidance and that each age improves on that.

I just hope that it is in the plan of Allah that I be heard at the very least to encourage there is hope in each one of us and that none of us is so far gone we cannot be helped.

Salam

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

 Yes, you have every right to be heard. And you have described your mission very well. Now it is upto every one to accept or reject it.

You said that you had a vision when very young and when adult. I hope it was not a wish or wishful thinking. You could have described the vision in detail. Butyou did not. That is okay. Vision has great value. But just a singular vision may not have the great value.

That will be like a begger who has got a few coins, being compared with a king. Also, I feel that your mission has not got anything to do with religion. It is a sort of some welfare job good for the humanity. So, if you do not appeal to any one with religion even then it would be well for you.

I read your program in detail, what you wanted to achieve or what you believe to be the good things/ principles: Such as :

My job is too warn a little and most of all to encourage you and all Mankind that there is hope and we are that hope!  There is few people who cannot be redeemed or forgiven.

My job is to encourage that all life is in a state of Islam or ie the process of submitting or cooperating each to their degree and that all religions and even the lack of one are signs of the evolution of Islam.

My job is too encourage everyone that each religion is like a recipe and each person must choose their own path we cannot choose for them.

My job is to encourage people to attend education, counseling and ...

Will you please check up if all these good things are found in any religion too. The one your are planning to achieve, these may be a part of the manifesto of a religion. So why to invent a wheel when it is already in use??

Please continue your good work, social welfare, etc,,, 

Just a note I discovered that all life is in varying states of Islam making all creatie beings seen and unseen Muslims First and each recipe is a different way to share Islam believe it or not!

In others words all religions and or the lack of them are the process of Islam each with a different name but all from one source.

Take a loaf of bread do you know how many different recipes there are for making a loaf of bread or a cake or a pot of soup, thousands and the product from each recipe have special qualities that other recipes do not have well it is the same for religion each religion is Islam but just using the same ingredients or a few new or extra ones for the end product a good person hopefully inshallah.

In this we have to work together, all peoples all religions and come up with a friendly way to share our recipes so we can develope more better ones, ones that save, time, save on calories, trans fats etc.

There is hope we are that hope!  Inshallah a great sorting out!

That is why when we slaughter a lamp we say Bismillah!

Salam

amlhabibi2000 wrote:     Alaikoam Salam Brothers and Sister thank you for your dialogue! In the case of a thief or anyone who commits a sin the first priority is to forgive as far as I have understood the sunah as then with forgiveness and educationa, counseling and consultation the person may learn better skills in how to cope with the challenges that caused them to sin in the first place and understand why they sinned also.

You do not understand the sunnah very far. As long as certain conditions are met, the hadd (fixed punishment) of a thief is to have the hand cut off. You claim to be a voice of God and you blunder on basic notions in the deen. You cannot even speak with any accuracy for a faith you claim to be a voice for. Pathetic.

Furthermore, Islam is not modeled after some western, juvenile support group model. Thieves are not given counseling, they are punished. 

Because the truth is all Mankind is Muslim and if we killed everyone or cut off everyones hand thered be most of mankind dead and most of mankind crippled!

1) All of mankind is not Muslim. There are specific requirements to be Muslim. Being part of mankind does not fulfill this requirement. Once more you are spouting off ignorance.

2) The hadd punishement has been carried out for over 1200 years, and there is no rational reason to leave it for the rantings of a self dellusional, self proclaimed religous ignoramus.

3) Since the beginning of these 1200 years, the population of the earth is in no danger of extermination during the use of the hadd. Your conclusions are simply silly. 

It says in the Quran to save a life is to save all mankind and therefor our first priority and objective is not to deliberately harm or cause someones death as that is supposed to be up to Allah and His time for our going to the next world is not to be confused with murder.

This does not have meaning, at all, when it comes to God's Justice. The use of capital punishment in Islam has never been defined as murder. You are being obtuse.

How can it be a the plan of Allah if someone kills someone intentionally how is that the will of Allah?

That would be called murder, and the use of the hadd is not murder. For crying out loud Anne, it is incredible that you feel you have come to bring a message to Muslims and you are clueless about Islam. Try learning what the faith is before you begin to try and change it into something that does not resemble Islam!

Especially when if that same person was educated, counseled and consulted towards better ways of doing things is their ignorance coicidence or just apathy on the part of mankind or themselves?

What in the hell are you talking about Anne? Seriously? If someone breaks a crime, the punishement is prescribed, and Allah has commanded that we carry out punishments, regardless of how we feel about them. That is in the Quran. Did God not expect you to read the Quran before He called you to do a mission?

Essentially since we are all Muslim or ie the people in the process of submission or cooperation why is there not in this day and age more education, counseling and consultation services available for free or accessible so everyone may get the skills they need to be good people?

Again. What the hell are you talking about? What color is your sky?

Allah guides whom He will to the right path but do we not also have to do a little assisting in this effort?

No, we are only to do what we are commanded and to give people the message. It is then up to others to accept the message.

We have to volunteer  with community ifra strucutre and support services so they have the people to help the efforts at self development inshallah a great sorting out into groups.

What in the name of heaven and earth are you talking about?

Since as I said all life is in a state of Islam we are tested in our daily lives the same as Mohammed PBUH was in the caves and we have a duty to leave a lasting and wonderful legacy just like His PBUH. Salam Thank you for your patience!

No, Islam is not "life", it is a religion and a way of life that does not need to be reinvented by you. God does not need you, he does not need me, you have a choice to enter into a covenant with God, or not. This covenant requires you to follow a path layed out by God, not an invitation for a self delusional person to try and alter 1200 years of foundation set forth by Allah, His prophet (saw), the first three generations of some of the most piouse men and women who have ever been called Muslim, and piouse savants afterward who worked tirelessly to set forth knowledge to aid us in out path.

Take it or leave it. If you do not like it, then please find another faith to torment with your fringe ideas and nonsense. You have already made declerations that put you outside of Islam, which would make you a kafir.   

amlhabibi2000 wrote:   Just a note I discovered that all life is in varying states of Islam making all creatie beings seen and unseen Muslims First and each recipe is a different way to share Islam believe it or not! In others words all religions and or the lack of them are the process of Islam each with a different name but all from one source. Take a loaf of bread do you know how many different recipes there are for making a loaf of bread or a cake or a pot of soup, thousands and the product from each recipe have special qualities that other recipes do not have well it is the same for religion each religion is Islam but just using the same ingredients or a few new or extra ones for the end product a good person hopefully inshallah. In this we have to work together, all peoples all religions and come up with a friendly way to share our recipes so we can develope more better ones, ones that save, time, save on calories, trans fats etc. There is hope we are that hope!  Inshallah a great sorting out! That is why when we slaughter a lamp we say Bismillah!     Salam

Anne Marie, I have to know, what is the color of your sky?

 For amlhabibi2000:

That is true. Every one is in a state of Islam (willingly or unwillingly) such that nobody can get away from the will and power of Allah. But we are to prove that we are also willingly following the will of Allah. That we have to prove by our deeds.

The program is laid out in Quran and the practice of the holy prophet s.a.w..s and in his sayings. The sayings of the prophet s.a.w.s. are to serve the Quran and the practice of the prophet s.a.w.s. The sayings (Hadith) are not to take charge of the Quran or the Sunnah.

Counselling is being done all the time. People are being invited to a good and the best way of life that is Islam. If any one accepts and joins the fold of Islam then he is explained all other things. But some one does not join the Muslims then it is no use telling him anything or teaching or counselling.

It is no use making a law and then not following it. It is never done in any country. That would be a mockery of the law. That nation cannot be saved. See the christians? They have no law. Then see their condition now. How deeply they are embedded in vice and sin.

I would request amlhabibi2000  to preach to those christians to come to some law. The Jews have a law. If they will follow it then they will benefit. There is a hope. But the church friends, there is no hope for them. The best for them is to come to Islam, the whole Islam, not a partial Islam.

Please try to understand that much and we may continue the dialogue.

Dear Annie (amlhabibi),

I have, following the insistent instructions of some of my more devout Muslim friends, at times said the bismillah, but, I must say, I have never done so when slaughtering a lamp.

Standby, here�s a little AmreekEmoticon: 

Serv

Salam Alaikoam

Life is the real Quran and each of our lives is a chapter in it.

Each religion or even the absence of one has wisdom to share in them and it is wise to appreciate this truth and not belittle anyone for the path they follow.

These are My Messenger may you guide them gently and treat them well!

Counseling is for personal issues relating to mental health, consultation is like when you want to build a house you checkout different building designers and see what they are killed at, their knowledge of where to put the house, what kind of materials, insultation, environment saving features etc.

You do not understand the sunnah very far. As long as certain conditions are met, the hadd (fixed punishment) of a thief is to have the hand cut off. You claim to be a voice of God and you blunder on basic notions in the deen. You cannot even speak with any accuracy for a faith you claim to be a voice for. Pathetic.

Furthermore, Islam is not modeled after some western, juvenile support group model. Thieves are not given counseling, they are punished. 

Brothers these thieves are my voice, my hands, my feet the best justice for them is Education, Counseling and Consultation so they may learn skills to provide for themselves with grace and dignity there is no justice in committing violence against them or anyone!

You and all brothers and sisters are here to create heaven on earth and peace within each of you not slaughter and maim each other it is time to grow up.

Salam

Annie,

It is great you believe that there are ways to help peope. That you really don't want to harm others (at leat I think you don't).  

At times I can think that "punishment" can seem a little harsh. Cutting off a hand, stoning etc. But besides punishment these measures are there to protect others. The innocent. Two classic examples are rapists and pedophiles. These are two grotesque acts that violate the very essence of the person. And most do it a multitude of times. Imagine after catching them and they faced a punishment we could protect people.

I watch a show often called 48 hours. And they talk about various crimes. And you know, most are not accidents, they are intentional murders. To take away someone's life. Done in anger, greed, lack of humanity etc. Honestly why do we need these people? We are not after all, talking about children, we are talking about grown adults.

I'd rather see the women and children protected. So no it is not "slaughter." It is about protecting and caring for the innocent and weaker people.

Keep in mind, most violent crimes are committed by men. Men are stronger. They hold power. And in my mind shiriah is there to protect us from the ones who cannot live in bounds of decent society. 

Salam Alaikoam those monsters as you call them are human beings too, they were children once, youth once and even in old age correction can happen.

If they cannot be corrected then confine them in a juste manner and offer them every chance at learning better ways of being.

As I Allah am the only one who can choose the time of the end of any human being no Mankind.

amlhabibi2000 wrote:   Salam Alaikoam Life is the real Quran and each of our lives is a chapter in it. Each religion or even the absence of one has wisdom to share in them and it is wise to appreciate this truth and not belittle anyone for the path they follow. These are My Messenger may you guide them gently and treat them well! Counseling is for personal issues relating to mental health, consultation is like when you want to build a house you checkout different building designers and see what they are killed at, their knowledge of where to put the house, what kind of materials, insultation, environment saving features etc.

There is only one Quran and it is real,and life is not the Quran.

amlhabibi2000 wrote: You do not understand the sunnah very far. As long as certain conditions are met, the hadd (fixed punishment) of a thief is to have the hand cut off. You claim to be a voice of God and you blunder on basic notions in the deen. You cannot even speak with any accuracy for a faith you claim to be a voice for. Pathetic. Furthermore, Islam is not modeled after some western, juvenile support group model. Thieves are not given counseling, they are punished.    Brothers these thieves are my voice, my hands, my feet the best justice for them is Education, Counseling and Consultation so they may learn skills to provide for themselves with grace and dignity there is no justice in committing violence against them or anyone! You and all brothers and sisters are here to create heaven on earth and peace within each of you not slaughter and maim each other it is time to grow up. Salam

Muslims are here to worship God, and carry out His commands, which does not call for consultation of thieves. Allah has ordered this, and if you feel it must be abrogated, then this is yet another sign of your kufr. 

amlhabibi2000 wrote:   Salam Alaikoam those monsters as you call them are human beings too, they were children once, youth once and even in old age correction can happen. If they cannot be corrected then confine them in a juste manner and offer them every chance at learning better ways of being. As I Allah am the only one who can choose the time of the end of any human being no Mankind.

Allah has chosen the end of life in various circumstances. You are a kafir Anne, it is that simple. You are not a Muslim. Please take your religous drivel some place else. 

   amlhabibi2000, To me, You may not be a kafir. It depends whether you believe in the One God or not. Also whether you believe in Muhammad, the messenger of Allah. Also, wether you believe in the angels and books and messengers of Allah. Make it to read, all the angels and all the books and all the messengers of Allah.

 Whether you pray 5 times in a day and Pay poor tax and observe the sanctity of the Month of Ramadhan by fasting during the month. Also if you believe in the performance of Hajj at the sacred house at Makkah.

 Please let me know about all these things. Then I will try to understand you. Until then, nothing can be said about you. Please do not mind my asking. Thanks.

You and all brothers and sisters are here to create heaven on earth and peace within each of you not slaughter and maim each other it is time to grow up.

heaven on earth and growing up are two different things. We are not talking about people playing war games. Rules and law and order actually makes people safer.

Salam Alaikoam those monsters as you call them are human beings too, they were children once, youth once and even in old age correction can happen.

Yes those people were some child at one point. But that is wrong (unless they are mentally retarded) to treat them as such. To not hold them accountable is not good. But they are no longer. And really, is it "humane" to let someone live in a cage for 40 years? Is that humane??  In fact prisons are often the worst place to be.

Yes Jeffrey Dahmer is a human being too.. in a loose sense. But tell that to all the people he chopped up and buried in his yard. He looked in those peoples' eyes and ended all their hopes and dreams. Why should he live? Why should we pay so he can sit in prison? Why? We have limited resources as a humanity. I'd rather we support the education and feeding people all over the globe.

Plus there are over 2 million people in the US in prisons. Now the cost of that is out of control. If they were punshed under Shirah for their crime.. did it, done and then we get on with things. And really, maybe if these career criminals lost a hand they'd be less prone to doing these acts? (or have the ability to do so).

As a Moslem we need to trust in Allah.

Salam Alaikoam, a thief and a murder are two different situations but again prevention is the name of the game and all we have to so is realize there are many victimes of abuse in this world and yes it is going to take Education, Counseling and Consultation to turn the tide!

We must be merciful not add violence to violence.

Ever take a look at the school systems in the USA or the treatment of the poor or different cultures then theres your answwer ignorance!

Again there is hope we are that hope and that hope does not include violence or demeaning anyone!

Islam is meant to be a bright light not a religion of terror!

In Islam we want people to feel free to ask questions and get guidance not hide in fear of being tortured!

There is work to be done for the resurrection of many souls and this work must be juste and kind and teach the skills we need to be good people and not teach how to maim and murder!

Salam

There is hope

 Yes, that is very good.  amlhabibi2000, You are not a kaafir. As long as you are not an enemy of Islam and as long as you are not opposing Islam and working to annihilate Islam, you are not a Kaafir at all. You may be having some deviant views. But who does not have !!!

You are a Muslim(ah?). You continue your work please. You will be rewarded according to your beliefs and deeds. Allah is forgiving and Merciful.

 I forgot to ask you one more question. Where do you face when you  pray, please tell exactly??? Thanks.

minuteman wrote:    Yes, that is very good.  amlhabibi2000, You are not a kaafir. As long as you are not an enemy of Islam and as long as you are not opposing Islam and working to annihilate Islam, you are not a Kaafir at all. You may be having some deviant views. But who does not have !!!

Actually she is a kafir, and this takfir is based upon her own admissions, even after two years of kind treatment to her and respect with explanations, Anne Marie has strung mondertion along as we attempted to educate her, by mods and non-mods. She continues to knowingly throw out decelerations of her beliefs which take her outside the folds of Islam, even after being told. You cannot abrogate a command of God from the Quran, and the deviant innovations she has decalred both in items of kalam and aqida makes her a kafir. Shaytan also knows the Quran and also believes in One God, and shaytan also knows qiblah.