Hey now to you, how would this believer react to your words when you tell him about your scholars and what they all have to say?

Sadly, many "heathens" don't have the opportunity to just excuse themselves when they hear stuff that is wrong and/or forced upon them.

At this very moment, deep in the Amazon rainforest, there are entire communities that are cut off from the rest of the world not just because of their isolation but because they have been "found" by Christian missionaries who won't allow anyone else to come into the area.

Not even anthropologists who were hoping to study the people before the missionaries change their lives forever. Sure, some of these changes might be good (better life expectancy due to fewer diseases, for example), but it should be carried out by groups not forcing anyone to change their religion.

grrrr

Kim...

God may be Love, but missionaries often are not. In the past missionaries have not been love, they have been imprisonment, punishment, guilt, torture, intolerance, abuse, disease, pneumonia  and theft.

Do you KNOW how many Hawaiians died because of missionaries? Those prudes turned up and insisted that everyone wear heaps of long clothing, so the natives died of pneumonia because their clothes were always wet due to the fact that they lived in a humid climate.

Kim...

Everyone has the freedom to make their own choices, but it is ugly when some convert others to a certain religion through isolating them and then giving them the choice either accept this faith, or no medicine, and even worse when some go and kill those who do not accept, the church has been famous for this in history, it just shows the falacity of these missionaries and their lust for power, which a believer does not have since he knows all power belongs to Him, it's kind of embarassing.

An interesting post I just found:

"The Missionaries - according to my friend Lelani

When the Missionaries first came to the Islands in 1820 they were greeted warmly. The Hawaiians had always believed in the Gods, but their Gods were carved in stone images, so the Christian religion was not so far fetched and King Kamehameha saw that his people wanted to learn. The Missionaries (prudes that they were) also taught the Hawaiians to cover the bodies.

Most Hawaiians will say that the Missionaries came with Bibles and the Hawaiians owned the land. When the Missionaries left, the Hawaiians owned the Bibles and the Missionaries owned the Land.

Daniel Dole was one Missionary that owned a great deal of land and was the Founder of Hawaiian Pineapple Company. Benjamin and Henry Parker ended up owning one of the largest Ranches on the big island of Hawaii as did the Framingham family on Oahu.

That is not true of all the Missionaries, some were truly dedicated to teaching the bible and died as poor as they arrived. That is also true of the Missionary family that watched the decline of the pure Hawaiians. Intermarriage was thinning out the line of pure bloods. So he purchased the Island of Niihau and moved as many as he could to his island to remain pure in blood. He also was strict with them and for many years they were not allowed to leave the Island for fear of loosing them to marriage with outsiders. Today there are still a few hundred pure Hawaiians living on Niihau, thanks to the Missionaries.

The Missionaries also brought with them diseases unknown to the Hawaiians. Smallpox, measles, mumps and colds. The Hawaiians were unfamiliar with these new maladies and did not know how to cope. When they had high fevers, they would bury themselves in the cool sand by the beach to feel cooler and would develop pneumonia and die."

(From:http://groups.msn.com/AncestorChroniclesOurKinAndTheir Times/hawaii.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Mess age=16868&LastModified=4675485969855519109)

Kim...

Lets see thats about 200 years ago and whos to say the diseases weren't already there but someone needed to be blamed missionaries didnt create diseases.So your logic may sound good but really how can you prove that christian missionaries brought disease,you cant its almost immpossible.But one thing is possible the Islands are plentiful and beautiful that is gods beauty.Satan creates disease and will try to get even the most faithful islander to blame it on one of gods children.   

onegamemaybe2 wrote: ....................The spread of the gospel offers the one chance of salvation for anyone,thats why it travels across the globe,to give everyone the chance to save their souls,now thats PERFECT.Are you saved?Got Jesus?

Which gospel is being talked about here which is perfect? Do you mean whole Bible (OT and NT) or just gospels of NT? I think you are refering exclusively to NT otherwise the converts from these missionarries would have Jewish flavour than Christians? Isn't it? But then question is which gospel did this, as there are atleast four of them in NT? Or they all did a commulative effect considered all togather? But then I read "Perfect" gospel and I am really confused with the claim of "Perfect" gospel. Am I missing something here?

firewall wrote: And Allah will never lead a people astray after He has guided them until He makes clear to them as to what they should avoid. [Quran, 9:115] Whoever goes right, then he goes right only for the benefit of his ownself. And whoever goes astray, then he goes astray to his own loss. No one laden with burdens can bear another's burden. And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger (to give warning).  [Quran, 17:15] I believe Allah will guide all His slaves. It's only the matter of us heeding it, or not. Even if he lives in the tribal jungle, or a missionary comes, a right-minded man should know the rights & wrongs. He need only think. but I think Allah has promised to guide us, so Allah will of course keep His promise. True? I truly believe, there will come signs in ones life -- he/she should pay attention to it...

The Peace is upon you, and the mercy of Allah, His blessings and His forgiveness.

The Peace is upon those who follow the guidance.

chapter 22, "Al hajj" the pilgramage

Bismillah,

Are we going to allow someone to say:  Got Jesus, on our Islaamic website?  I would rather not read that here.  I have to hear and see it all over the place, and I am annoyed with it.

One of the most beautiful names of Allah, SWT, is Love.  And Allah loved the world so much that Allah, who is neither male nor female, required no pagan human blood sacrifices in order to forgive our sins and guide us to the right path.

Note, she did not mean Jesus was a pagan, but the sacrificing of humans as being a pagan practise, read again.

Bismillah,

Thank you Comm for clearing that up!  And people argue over silly things like that, and you see right through to the meaning and avoid nonsense.

Maybe, Please don't pontificate on your beliefs as if this is your soap box.  Slogans like the ones you spouted earlier are not welcome.  Discussion and learning certainly are.  And maybe others aren't as miffed at seeing this stuff here as I am.

It is vicious to have to make a blood sacrifice in order to gain our Kind, Gracious, Forgiving Lord's forgiveness.  Muslims just have to have a pure intention, and it's between Allah, SWT, and us.  We don't have to go to the preacher or priest or sheikh to get Allah's forgiveness. 

 And it is a mystery, because only the One, Eternal, Life-Giver, Sustainer of Life, knows the answer of whether we were forgiven or not.  We just need to have faith.  And faith is what religion is about. 

Salam ala kum to all

To : Community and Onegamemaybe2,

With all due respect, your comments do not seem to be appropriate for this forum, as it is titled "Intrafaith Dialogue". The purpose of this particular forum, according to my understanding, is to have a discussion centered around the differences within Islam. Since neither of your comments seem to be based on intra-Muslim issues my humble suggestions is that you find a forum that is more appropriate to your level of discussion.

On a side note, I was a Christian that was blessed by Allah (s.w.a.) to be guided to the true religion of the prophet Isa (Jesus Christ), which is Islam. I say to my Christian brothers and sisters that when you say "Got Jesus!" to a Muslim, it is offensive on two levels.

In the first place, the implication of this statement is that Jesus Christ is a trademark which is owned by Chrisitians. This is incorrect. Jesus Christ was NOT a Chrisitian (as you know), nor did he found the religion of Chrisitianity. When I say Jesus was a Muslim, I do not mean that he prayed the Muslim prayer 5 times a day, fasted during Ramadan, etc (which he did not do, he practiced Judaism), rather, that he submitted (the meaning of Islam) to the one Lord, Creator and Sustainer of himself and everything else.

The second reason is that you are implying that we, as Muslims, are "lost and condemned" (as a Christian brother once told me). The reason for being offended by this should be obvious.

Please do not take offenese to this, as my intention is not to discourage you from participating in this ongoing discussion. I simply feel that you line and level of discourse would be more appropriate for another forum (such as Interfaith Dialogue). You may find in that area participants who are more eager to have a deep discussion with you.

Salam

Assalam Alaicum

 I agree with what you typed ( if I am understanding it correctly ). I think that all man have it in their hearts that there is only one God.. Allah. even with out a book I think He is known to all in their hearts. I think we are all in a way similar to Abraham ( we know in our hearts the there is only one God... Allah, and we are consious of Him)as children....but then as we get older we are faced with all of the divisions in religion, different cultures, parents handing down their beliefs to you, sometimes even pushing them onto you, disbelievers trying to plant a seed of doubt in your head. And for some all of this is enough to confuse them. It is important for us all to remember that we are servants/slaves of Allah. And though there might be divisions in the three religions we have the one most important thing in common.... We all worship Allah. And if we can put our differences aside and remember that our main goal is to   please Allah than we will all remember that we arent that different when it comes to what is really important.Abraham set a good example before the divisions.I sometimes wonder if I should follow his example instead of listening to man.Because you cannot trust man. Men can easily confuse and push their ways on others and so can the evil whisperer (satan). it is sometimes hard to decipher the trueth from the lies. That is why we all must ask Allah to guide us. After all He is Trueth.

Salams to all,

Quoting trueth searcher

"Abraham set a good example before the divisions.I sometimes wonder if I should follow his example instead of listening to man.Because you cannot trust man"

It is true, Prophet Ibrahim was an excellent example, as stated in the Quran. You have hit on a point which many of our muslim brothers and sisters are facing right now. To use an analogy that is often used here in the US, you see the glass as either half empty or half full. Some people look at forums such as this and only see people arguing and fighting to gain some advantage over the other or to prove that they are right and the other person is wrong. I don't see it that way. I shouldn't say that exactly. I see some people doing that, but I believe that most people on this forum are just like you, seeking truth by asking questions and engaging in discussions with others who do not agree with them.

It is true that there are many untrustworthy people in the world, but the religion of Islam only asks you to trust The Prophet, and those whom the Prophet(p.b.u.h) has designated as being worthy of trust. There is one hadith, that is narrated by most narrators (both Shia and Sunni). If you follow it you will never need anything else. It is the Hadith of Thalqayin, RasoullAllah (p.b.u.h) say, (English translation)

http://www.al-islam.org/thaqalayn/nontl/Preface.htm - http://www.al-islam.org/thaqalayn/nontl/Preface.htm

The Prophet and the Ahl Al Bait are the trustees of the religion of Ibrahim. Salams

Abu Hadi wrote: Salams to all, Quoting trueth searcher "Abraham set a good example before the divisions.I sometimes wonder if I should follow his example instead of listening to man.Because you cannot trust man" It is true, Prophet Ibrahim was an excellent example, as stated in the Quran. You have hit on a point which many of our muslim brothers and sisters are facing right now. To use an analogy that is often used here in the US, you see the glass as either half empty or half full. Some people look at forums such as this and only see people arguing and fighting to gain some advantage over the other or to prove that they are right and the other person is wrong. I don't see it that way. I shouldn't say that exactly. I see some people doing that, but I believe that most people on this forum are just like you, seeking truth by asking questions and engaging in discussions with others who do not agree with them. It is true that there are many untrustworthy people in the world, but the religion of Islam only asks you to trust The Prophet, and those whom the Prophet(p.b.u.h) has designated as being worthy of trust. There is one hadith, that is narrated by most narrators (both Shia and Sunni). If you follow it you will never need anything else. It is the Hadith of Thalqayin, RasoullAllah (p.b.u.h) say, (English translation) http://www.al-islam.org/thaqalayn/nontl/Preface.htm - http://www.al-islam.org/thaqalayn/nontl/Preface.htm The Prophet and the Ahl Al Bait are the trustees of the religion of Ibrahim. Salams

Islam only asks us to trust The Prophet you said, how do you do that? do you do that through witnessing the truth of the koran? or is it through narrations people claim come from him? if so how do you know for sure that they are truely from him? is it because you trust the people who claim they are from The Prophet?

Salam to Community,

The general method of verification of hadith (traditions of the Prophet) is a science (just like chemistry, biology, etc.) called Ijtihad. The basics of this science are the same among Sunni and Shia, however, they disagree somewhat as to the reliabity of some of the transmitters of hadith.

If you would like to learn more about this science, please see the following

http://al-islam.org/al-tawhid/hadith-science/index.htm - http://al-islam.org/al-tawhid/hadith-science/index.htm

The reasons for the neccessity of reliance upon the Prophet and his Ahly al'Bayt to understand the Quran are many, however, an example of a hadith (from the prophet (p.b.u.h.) that is widely known and accepted by both Sunni and Shia Muslims is

"Whosoever interprets the Qur'an according to his own opinion has made a place for himself in the fire. "

http://al-islam.org/mot/default.asp?url=methods.htm - http://al-islam.org/mot/default.asp?url=methods.htm

Salam,

Ali Zaki wrote: The reasons for the neccessity of reliance upon the Prophet and his Ahly al'Bayt to understand the Quran are many, however, an example of a hadith (from the prophet (p.b.u.h.) that is widely known and accepted by both Sunni and Shia Muslims is "Whosoever interprets the Qur'an according to his own opinion has made a place for himself in the fire. " http://al-islam.org/mot/default.asp?url=methods.htm - http://al-islam.org/mot/default.asp?url=methods.htm Salam,

Chapter the pilgremage

Man kana yathunnu an lan yansurahu Allahu fee alddunya waalakhirati falyamdud bisababin ila alssamai thumma liyaqtaAA falyanthur hal yuthhibanna kayduhu ma yagheethu

This is the interpertation Of the quran by the scholars so in accordance with the "hadith"

Community, do you know why Iblis fell rejected? Because he did not agree... his arrogance blinded his rationality. Because he quesitoned too much... because enflamed with fire he thought that he had attained the ultimate.

Let's not be too eager to re-interpret the Qur'aan and mess around with the methodology of recording of the ahadeeth.

Bismillah,

Community has brought up the most pivotal hadith, which is recorded as sahih.  Someone else can get the details, but I know I read it in the sahih. 

A companion goes to a leader of the Muslims and quotes the prophet, pbuh.  The leader liked it so much that he told his scribe to write it down.  The companion said:  The prophet Muhammad, pbuh, forbade the writing down of his sayings.

Salam Community,

I am surprised at your statement,

" So i will go to hell according to what the "sunnis" and "shia" agree upon came from the prophet because i interpert the koran according to my opinion? "

I am not saying you are going to hell.(AstafirAllah). I am providing for you a hadith from the Prophet (p.b.u.h.) which is relevent to our discussion. These are the prophets words, not mine. Anyway, Allah is Al-Ghafoor, Al-Rahim (as you already know).

BACK TO THE TOPIC AT HAND

[Pickthal 3:7] He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.

TAFSIR (by M.A. Ali )

"None knows its interpretation except Allah and those (who are) firmly rooted in knowledge", renders null and void all attempts made by scholars to discover the true meanings of the mutashabihat. The firmly rooted in knowledge are those whom Allah Himself gives the knowledge, as verse 49 of al Ankabut says: But it is clear revelations in the hearts of those who have been given knowledge. ...The firmly rooted in knowledge are the Holy Prophet and his Ahl ul Bayt, the thoroughly purified ones (Ahzab: 33), who possess the desired purity of heart and soul, essential for receiving and holding the truth in order to use it (Waqi-ah: 77 to 79) to do good to themselves and to others. "

REGARDING THE VALIDITY OF IJTIHAD (The Science of Hadith)

Since we must depend on the words of the Holy Prophet and his purified progeny to fully understand the Holy Quran (and to protect ourselves from going astray), then we need access to these words. The science of Hadith (Ijtihad) has been developed over many centuries as a "means of access" to these words. As you know, there are tens of thousands of hadith that are claimed by their narrators to be the words of the prophet. If we were to accept all hadith without any type of filtering mechanism, then we would be mixing the authentic and forged hadith together. If we simply reject all hadith, then we will not be able to progress in our understading of Quran (which is the foundation of our religion). So where can we go from their, other than Ijtihad?

Salam

Assalamu'alaikum,

Brother Ali Zaki,

May i correct you a little. The term Ijtihad which you have frequently used - is not really "science of hadith"...

Ijtihad according to one of its definitions is:

"Exerting the sum total of one's ability attempting to uncover Allah's rulings on issues from their sources (Qur'an, Sunnah, Ijma', etc.). Sometimes divided into complete ijtihad (the ability of one to independently arrive at Allah's rulings in all areas of fiqh) and partial ijtihad (the ability of one to do so only in certain areas of fiqh in which they have exerted such efforts)."

Science of Hadith (Ulum-ul-Hadith) is ideed much more complex than what Community assumes it to be. His argument is rational, the Companions would not have confused Qur'aan with ahadeeth. However, as Islam was quickly spreading to places beyond Mecca and Medina, the new believers could have confused the scrolls of Qur'aanic verses with the ones featuring ahadeeth. Taking into consideration that literate people were not frequently found during those days. Which is one of the main reasons why the ahadeeth were not to be written down in parallel to the verses of the Qur'aan that were being revealed... At a later stage, when Qur'aan was compiled into Mushaf as we have it today, all other duplicate scrolls with selected verses were also odered to be destroyed.

Here is a link to a comprehensive introduction to the Sciences of Hadith.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/scienceofhadith/atit.html - http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/scienc eofhadith/atit.html

Jazzak Allahu Khair.

Salam Mockba

I stand corrected. Ijtihad is much more comprehensive than the "science of Hadith" . I agree that using the terms interchangeably may be confusing. Thank you for adding to my knowledge.

Salam

MOCKBA wrote: Community, do you know why Iblis fell rejected? Because he did not agree... his arrogance blinded his rationality. Because he quesitoned too much... because enflamed with fire he thought that he had attained the ultimate. Let's not be too eager to re-interpret the Qur'aan and mess around with the methodology of recording of the ahadeeth.

Why Iblis got cast out was because he thought himself better then what Allah created out of clay, so the arrogance was that he rejected the truth when it came to him and thought what he had was better then what was given to Adam.

When the jews say that a great rabbi centuries ago said something and that he was a righteous man and that they follow his words because they have to follow their rabbis teachings because they are the vicegerants of Moses, in other words follow their methodology, we muslims think:"what foolishness, they are misguided  how can they know that that rabbi was a righteous man and how can they know that "he" actually said such, just because they say someone said something and just because they claim he was righteous does not mean that he was." Or when the christians say they do a certain thing because the holy spirit came down on a righteous man some hunderds of years ago and he was made to write it down by the holy spirit, and that they do it because it is a command from God, we think:"what? this is wrong what they do, how can they be so gullible into believing the words of others without question?" So why judge christians and jews this way, but when it comes to muslims we do not, are we not human beings just like the jews and christians are human beings? prone to make mistakes and even lie and deceive? Did not the prophet say that this ummah will make the same mistakes as those before us i.e the jews and christians? We forgot who our prophet was :The Unlettered Prophet, He did not write or read but spoke what was sent down upon him, and the believers who heard it believed in it, and recited it to others, He did not object when the koran was written down, because the koran is a book, but when he heard that his words were written down, he ordered them to be burned. Had those who started writing down his words after his death obeyed him, the situation would have been that the koran would remain as a book and in the mind of thousands later millions, also his words that people kept alive by telling them to others would remain. Some of the prophet's words would be forgotten(by the will of Allah) this would be a natural process since they are not preserved in books, somethings that applied for one period of time would not apply anymore for another period and would gradually disapear and words that were not from the prophet would disapear completely. Lies do not last, EVEN if written down, [See truth is what remains and Allah is The Truth, The Everlasting, The Eternal and falsehood is by nature a vanishing thing, these are teachings from The koran and everyone will come to know it is the truth.]

Salam alakum Community,

I mean no disrespect to you, however, your arguments are weak (in my opinion) and go against a science of hadith which is supported by Quran (in the verses quoted and others). Again, I ask that if we are not allowed to interpret the allogorical verses ourselves, then what should we do with them? Should we just "skip over" those parts, or go against Quran itself? I don't see any other option.

Salam

One More Thing....

Also, in fact, The Bible and The Talmud are collections of hadith (from previous prophets and others) without any method of authenticaion of their contents. As a result, the Jews and Christians are forced to either accept it all, or reject is all and they come up with all kinds of mental gymnastics to justify why it is "Holy" or "Inspired".

In contrast, the whole purpose of the science of Hadith is to classify hadith based on various criteria so that we can determine (with some degree of certainty) how reliable the hadith is. No Muslim (that I know of) has ever claimed that all of the 10's of thousands of hadith are actually from the Prophet. In fact, noone could since many hadith contradict eachother. However, this does not mean that we do not know, with a high degree of certainty, that some of the hadith that are transmitted through many lines of narration are, in fact, true and reliable.

Of course, the Quran is the ultimate firquon (criteria), which has been protected by Allah (s.w.a.) from error or corruption, therefore, if any hadith contradicts the Holy Quran it is rejected by all Muslims.

Salam

Some of the prophet's words would be forgotten(by the will of Allah) this would be a natural process since they are not preserved in books, somethings that applied for one period of time would not apply anymore for another period and would gradually disapear and words that were not from the prophet would disapear completely. Lies do not last, EVEN if written down, [See truth is what remains and Allah is The Truth, The Everlasting, The Eternal and falsehood is by nature a vanishing thing, these are teachings from The koran and everyone will come to know it is the truth.]

Salaamu'alaikum Community,

You must draw a clearer line between what you consider a "lie" or a hadith. When someone takes a hadith and tries to quote it as far as his memory allows, or explain the meaning without proper reference... then it does run the chance of turning into a lie, in fact it becomes one, once you attribute words to the Prophet (peace be upon him) that he never said.

The very reports that the Companions (may Allah be pleased with them all) were ordered to burn the scrolls with the ahadeeth comes from the ahadeeth. The warning of the Prophet that Muslims will follow the Jews and the Christians also comes from a narration and not the Qur'aan. Are you conveniently picking some evidences yet rejecting all?

Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri states that the Messenger^(S) of Allah said, "You will surely follow the practices of your predecessors span by span and cubit by cubit, so that if they were to enter a lizard's hole you would follow them." We (the companions) asked, "O Messenger of Allah, the Jews and the Christians?" He said, "Who else!"   (Agreed)

The authenticity of the Qur'aan is incomparable when studied next to the collection of the Prophetic sayings, however that does not mean that we refute the latter and classify them all as fabricated and completely unreliable. Obviously times change, but noone has asked us to prepare for our driving tests solely on the writings found in the ahadeeth or verses from the Qur'aan.  

The reason why i believe these ahadeeth are true is because they are logical in the sense that muslims are human beings like jews and christians so they are likely to make the same mistakes, as for the command to burn the ahadeeth, this seems only logical to me too, since the koran is appliable through all ages and some ahadeeth are not, and writing them down makes it complicated. In respect to the koran, every generation interperts it's verses differently because the world changes through the ages but His words remain true. For instance this verse:surat Arroom(chapter "the romans")30:41 Mischief has become appearant on the land and in the sea because of that which the hands of men have earned, that He may give them a taste of some of their deeds so that they may return. Someone in the time of the prophet, or even 500 years ago might understand something else from this vers then someone now(pollution of the sea and land because of industry "that which the hands of men have earned"), both are right in their respective interpertation even though their interpertation would be different because of the different things being appearant. To try to constrain the koran only to the interpertation of scholars who use the written ahadeeth for it's interpertation is wrong. Allah created us with different faces, bodies, backgrounds and different view points, The koran is guidance and mercy for everyone, He is well aquainted with each and everyone and well aquainted with our hearts, and through His words He guides each however He wishes. He guides whom He wishes and how He wishes.

Ali Zaki wrote: Salam alakum Community, I mean no disrespect to you, however, your arguments are weak (in my opinion) and go against a science of hadith which is supported by Quran (in the verses quoted and others). Again, I ask that if we are not allowed to interpret the allogorical verses ourselves, then what should we do with them? Should we just "skip over" those parts, or go against Quran itself? I don't see any other option. Salam

3:7 He it is Who has sent down upon thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (muhkamaat, hukm=law); they are the mother(foundation) of the Book: others are allegorical(mutashabahaat, shabaha=resembles). But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, longing for discord, and longing for its explanation but no one knows its explanation except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe it; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will remember except men of understanding.  

All i can reply to your answer is no we do not just skip it, and no we do not go against the koran by interperting them.

Salam alakum to Community and Mockba,

We may be "beating a dead horse" (as they say in America) on this one, however, I just want to make one more quick point.

" The koran is guidance and mercy for everyone, He is well aquainted with each and everyone and well aquainted with our hearts, and through His words He guides each however He wishes. He guides whom He wishes and how He wishes. "

The Quran itself testifies to this, and so no Muslim will disagree with you. This caution against interpretation does not apply to PERSONAL guidance. Every person has the right (and duty) to not only recite the Quran, but to conteplate it's meaning. The Quran is like a beautiful flower, and each time a pedal is pulled back, it reveals another, more delicate one whose fragrance is even more sweet. This is not what we are talking about.

The caution here is against trying to create discord by trying to explain the mutashabahaat according to your own understading. What is also implied is that one should not perform one's own tafsir (interpretation) without reliance on those who are "firmly grounded in knowledge".

Of course, each Ayat of Quran has many levels of meaning, however, this is another subject.

Community,

Scholastic opinion and conclusions does not stop you from understanding verses in your own way or relating them to your own environment and situation. 

Nobody is saying that "this verse means this and this because the sheikh 200 years ago had said so". However, as brother Ali Zaki has pointed out, there are some basic and fundamental principles which are important... likewise in a scientific approach.  

Can you give me an example of what you consider an illogical hadith or hadith that is inapplicable to modern times (preferrably from Bukhari or Muslim)? As I mentioned previously, you are conveniently picking some yet rejecting all, even though they have been very much carefully compiled by one person. If we filtered opinions on logical and illogical based on our limited-to-one-person thinking capacity we wouldn't be puting ourselves far from the arrogance and ignorance of Iblis.  

Ali Zaki wrote: The caution here is against trying to create discord by trying to explain the mutashabahaat according to your own understading. What is also implied is that one should not perform one's own tafsir (interpretation) without reliance on those who are "firmly grounded in knowledge".

Could you give me refference from the koran on that we should not preform our own "tafsir" without reliance on those who are firmly grounded in knowledge? the verse does not say trying to create discord by trying to explain it. Even though the translation from picktall states this. Look at this translation which i find nearer to the orriginal arabic. koran chapter 3:7 He it is Who has sent down upon thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (muhkamaat, hukm=law); they are the mother(foundation) of the Book: others are allegorical(mutashabahaat, shabaha=resembles). But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, longing for discord, and longing for its explanation but no one knows its explanation except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe it; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will remember except men of understanding.

You can perform your tafsir but you may also need to be well-qualified to do so. Not every surgical operation can be performed by a general therapist. Why would you want to perform your own tafsir without reliance on scholars especially if they are, as you say, "firmly grounded in knowledge"?

MOCKBA wrote:   Nobody is saying that "this verse means this and this because the sheikh 200 years ago had said so". However, as brother Ali Zaki has pointed out, there are some basic and fundamental principles which are important... likewise in a scientific approach.  Ok i guess you do not hold to the tafsir of Ibn Kathir then or others who explain every verse according to hadith. Can you give me an example of what you consider an illogical hadith or hadith that is inapplicable to modern times (preferrably from Bukhari or Muslim)? As I mentioned previously, you are conveniently picking some yet rejecting all, even though they have been very much carefully compiled by one person. If we filtered opinions on logical and illogical based on our limited-to-one-person thinking capacity we wouldn't be puting ourselves far from the arrogance and ignorance of Iblis.

"Whosoever interprets the Qur'an according to his own opinion has made a place for himself in the fire. "

This is a hadith i consider illogical since it goes against what Ali Zaki said about the koran and which you agree with.

 filtering opinions on logical and illogical based on our limited-to-one-person thinking as you stated is reasonable to me, since we will be standing alone before Allah and we will be asked individually about our actions and choices, "he said, she said" are no valid excuses when it concerns the truth, the truth should be recognized and accepted by those it comes to, not because someone says it is the truth but because they recognize it as being the truth. The fear for Allah helps one recognize the truth. It is not correct to accept something just because someone claims it is the truth. There is nothing wrong with questioning but the fear of Allah is a necessity. The fear of Allah makes one just in action and thought. And to reject the truth when it comes, is like the pagans rejecting the prophet when he came with the truth. They failed to recognize the truth, and on top of that they regarded what they had as being superior(this is the arrogance of iblis) to that which the prophet came with(the truth). They did not have fear for Allah so they were destroyed and defeated.

You can perform your tafsir but you may also need to be well-qualified to do so. Not every surgical operation can be performed by a general therapist. To understand the koran you need two things, read it with the fear for Allah and hope for His mercy, if you have these two things you can not go wrong in whatever you do. Why would you want to perform your own tafsir without reliance on scholars especially if they are, as you say, "firmly grounded in knowledge"? I do not need the tafsir of scholars, i asked Ali Zaki to give me refference from the koran concerning these scholars or as he calls them "firmly grounded in knowledge".

To understand the koran you need two things, read it with the fear for Allah and hope for His mercy, if you have these two things you can not go wrong in whatever you do.

There are undoubtedly more than "two things" that you need to understand the Qur'aan. And the ones that you mentioned are very important, indeed.  

I will start a new thread dedicated to Tafsir, under Discussions: Basics of Islam, insha Allah. Perhaps we could continue there, specifically on the subject of Tafsir, if you are interested.

Bismillah,

I like Community's comments.  I became a Muslimah based on this, not knowing about the complicated shar'ah and science of hadith.  And there are so many things which contradict each other, it seems like Bible school again.

So ISA Allah, SWT, has given me an Islaamic heart to make decisions while praying, fasting, caring for my children, et cetera.  The basic rules are clear to me, and the other things that don't make sense, I leave alone.  You know, I am a real person whom Allah, SWT, lead to Islaam.  People need to focus on the most important things.  I was an unbeliever searching for Allah, and Allah found me and guided me.

You guys can discuss details and isnaads forever.  If it seems wrong,  I'm not doing it! (Like plucking your eyebrows sends you to hell!  Geez!  Allah, SWT, is so Merciful, and that statement certainly isn't.) 

Bismillah

Thank you for your openness, sister herjihad,

If we were to be sitting and chatting in "real-life" setting, like while waiting for the turn at a Doctor's, I could only imagine you sitting with a pair of twizzers looking in your little mirror without establishing an eye-contact, plucking your eyebrows and telling us all politely off with the message above.  

It helps. In a way.

Assalamu alaikum,

Yes, sister Herjihad, I do agree.  I too came to Islam (with the Mercy of Allah) because I liked it's very simplicity.  It seems many prefer to make it complicated!

The message of Islam is so simple that anyone can grasp it, by the Grace of Allah.  Those who wish to delve deeper, can, because the depth of meaning in the simple message is unfathomable.  Certainly a much nobler persuit than the things most people prefer to use their time for!

For those who enjoy delving into the depths of Islam, good for you.  For the rest of us, the simple, straight forward message will do!  And Allah knows best.

Peace, ummziba.

Salams to all,

I am also a revert to Islam (I was born Christian and have been muslim for 12 years). I am not here to tell anyone what to do or what to believe or who is right and who is wrong. As you know, in our religion, everyone is responsible only for him or herself. I am doing these postings only for myself. If someone else wants to take knowledge from them or take issue with them that is up to them.

When I first converted, as is the case with most converts, you are adopted by a community (some are adopted more than other , lol, you converts know what I'm talking about). I happened to be in contact with some brothers and sisters from South Lebanon when I converted. These muslims were Shia 12vers , as is the majority in the South part of Lebanon. I was around these people almost exclusively for the first 4 years that I was Muslim. Then I started to get curious.What if Shiaism is not the right way ? What if there is another school of thought that is more correct. I was convinced that Islam was the truth but there were so many different schools of thought, I wanted to find which one was the closest to the original message of the Prophet Muhammed (p.b.u.h) whom all muslims look to as their leader. I deliberately distanced myself from my Lebanese friends and started to hang around some Saudi and Kuwaiti brothers who were attending the University of California with me. After my independent research and my discussions with my Sunni brothers, I concluded that the Jaafari schools (Shia 12ver) was the most authentic Islamic tradition in line with the original message of Prophet Muhammed(p.b.u.h). This is still and ongoing project for me, that is why I am posting to this forum.

This is the bottom line,

We will all be questioned in the grave. We will be asked by the angel who is our Lord, who is our Prophet, what is our Book, and who is our Imam. Some think that we will just repeat these answers like a parrot, then strait to the Jinnah. But if this is the case, then why do we deserve to go to Jinnah, and not the Christians, Jews, Hindus, etc. They can also memorize and repeat answers.  There is a fine point here, because even if you are not a muslim, your good deeds will be accepted, but not your religion. So if we want to be safe on that day of trial, we must really KNOW! We must know the WHY, in addition to the who, what, where, and when of our religion. If you are 100% confident that you know the WHY to all these questions, then you are excused and may go to recess (a little joke). If not, then we all need to sit in class a little longer. Wa Salama

Bismillah

Assalamu'alaikum!

Knowing meticulous details is not compulsory for all, though much preferred. Some people drive cars without even knowing what's beneath the bonnet and many are good drivers. Most people use PCs and are least interested how motherboards and microchips relate to each other.

When the car breaks, or when a PC crashes we all prefer to seek professional advice and have a knowledgeable and experienced person attend to the problem. Nobody seeks a second opinion on a heart surgery from a butcher, even though on the surface they both in some way or other cut meat. 

Perhaps the way the discussion on methodology of recording of the ahadeeth and developing a tafseer developed, was a little specialised. However, it should be made clear that to come up with fatwaas for the masses and publish explanations of the Qur'aanic verses you also need to be qualified... just like an IT specialist. Some people take a little more effort in order to facilitate religious matters for others. That does not necessarily mean that everyone has to become a scholar and enforce correct terminology on others.

Narrated Anas bin Malik: The Prophet said, "Facilitate things to people (concerning religious matters), and do not make it hard for them and give them good tidings and do not make them run away (from Islam)." Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 3, Number 69

Salams to all,

It is your duty as a muslim to seek knowledge of your religion  as much as you have the ability. There are many hadith from both Shia and Sunni sources that verify this. I don't think I need to include, because the br. and s. are probably already familiar with them. Allah (s.w.a) knows best and none of us are in a position to judge someone else on this point. I would like to say, however, that this information is much easier to find nowdays with all the modern implements of information technology (such as the Internet and forums such as this) so it follows logically that we will be much more accountable before Allah(s.w.a) for this knowledge than our anscestors were.

Respectfully and with Salams,

Bismillah,

To know something is to do it.  I heard this hadith a long time ago about how Omar, SWS, would implement the Quran he knew before he would study more.  Someone can quote the exact hadith, I'm sure. 

So I take from this a good lesson that if I am impious and impatient, I need to work on those things because the Sura Wal Asr tells me to before I try to become an expert in history and other things.  People can do both, but I think the point is that we are not supposed to abandon the essentials that we haven't mastered to chasing new knowledge for the sake of "knowing" it.

Salam to herjihad,

I am very deliberately avoiding discussing the policy of Omar in implementing Sharia as the Caliphate, as this is a very different issue than what we are discussing and would take us to far off topic.

In regards to reliance on our own experience, understanding to explain Quran, here is an interesting discussion on this topic from one of the most well-know and respected Mufasireen, Sayed Tabatabai, author of "Al-Mizan". In his forward to this book, he writes,

" In this life we are surrounded by matter; even our senses and faculties are closely related to it. This familiarity with matter and material things has influenced our mode of thinking. When we hear a word or a sentence, our mind races to its material meaning. When we hear, for example, the words, life, knowledge, power, hearing, sight, speech, will, pleasure, anger, creation and order, we at once think of the material manifestations of their meanings. Likewise, when we hear the words, heaven, earth, tablet, pen, throne, chair, angel and his wings, and Satan and his tribe and army, the first things that come into our minds are their material manifestations....

In this way, we jump to the familiar (which most often is material) meaning of every word. And it is but natural. Man has made words to fulfil his social need of mutual intercourse; and society in its turn was established to fulfil the man's material needs. Not unexpectedly, the words became symbols of the things which men were connected with and which helped them in their material progress

But we should not forget that the material things are con­stantly changing and developing with the development of expert­ise. Man gave the name, lamp, to a certain receptacle in which he put a wick and a little fat that fed the lighted wick which illumi­nated the place in darkness. That apparatus kept changing until now it has become the electric bulb of various types; and except the name "lamp" not a single component of the original lamp can be found in it.

Likewise, there is no resemblance in the balance of old times and the modern scales - especially if we compare the old apparatus with the modern equipment for weighing and measuring heat, electirc-current's flow and blood-pressure.

And the armaments of old days and the ones invented within our own times have nothing in common, except the name.

The named things have changed so much that not a single component of the original can be found in them; yet the name has not changed. It shows that the basic element that allows the use of a name for a thing is not the shape of that thing, but its purpose and benefit.

Man, imprisoned as he is within his habitat and habit, often fails to see this reality. That is why al-Hashawiyyah and those who believe that God has a body interpret the Qur'anic verses and phrases within the fame-work of the matter and the nature. But in fact they are stuck with their habit and usage, and not to the exterior of the Qur'an and the traditions. Even in the literal meanings of the Qur'an we find ample evidence that relying on the habit and usage in explanation of the divine speech would cause confusion and anomaly. For example, Allah says: nothing is like a likeness of Him (42:11); Visions comprehended Him not, and He comprehends (all) visions; and He is the Knower of subtilities, the Aware (6 :73) ; glory be to Him above what they ascribe (to Him) (23 :91; 37:159). These verses manifestly show that what we are accustomed to cannot be ascribed to Allah.

It was this reality that convinced many people that they should not explain the Qur'anic words by identifying them with their usual and common meanings. Going a step further, they sought the help of logical and philosophical arguments to avoid wrong deductions. This gave a foot-hold to academic reasoning in explaining the Qur'an and identifying the individ­ual person or thing meant by a word. Such discussions can be of two kinds:

i) The exegete takes a problem emanating from a Qur'anic statement, looks at it from academic and philosophical point of view, weighs the pros and cons and with the help of the phil­osophy, science and logic decides what the true answer should be. Thereafter, he takes the verse and fits it anyhow on that answer which, he thinks, is right.

The Muslim philosophers and theologians usually followed this method; but, as mentioned earlier, the Qur'an does not approve of it.

ii) The exegete explains the verse with the help of other relevant verses, meditating on them together - and meditation has been forcefully urged upon by the Qur'an itself - and ident­ifies the individual person or thing by its particulars and attributes mentioned in the verse.

No doubt this is the only correct method of exegesis."

SOURCE: http://www.al-islam.org/al-mizan/v1/2.htm - http://www.al-islam.org/al-mizan/v1/2.htm

Salam

how do you really know if you are going to be questioned in the grave and what questions you will be asked?

�Allaah will keep firm those who believe, with the word that stands firm in this world (i.e. they will keep on worshipping Allaah Alone and none else), and in the Hereafter. And Allaah will cause to go astray those who are Zaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers), and Allaah does what He wills� [Surat Ibraaheem 14:27]