I have read Quran book and learned more about Muslim's religious. I can see that Quran has many miracles. It sounds like God's words. I heard that Quran has no errors and others books have many errors. I have seen that Holy Bible has many errors.

One thing bother me that false prophets will come after Jesus. Is Muhammad true prophet even though Holy Bible says that there will be false prophets after Jesus?

Please read this verses and explain to me if you really believe that Muhammad is true prophet. I want to understand.

I picked two verses from Holy Bible. These verses seem powerful

2 Corinthians 11:13-15

13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

 14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

 15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

1 John 4:1-6

1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

 2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

 3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

 4Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

 5They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

 6We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

as angela said not a single christian in the world disproved the prophethood of Mohammad (PBUH). there were many false prophet at the time of Mohammad (PBUH) but they failed.

so Jesus might indicated those false prophet not the Mohammad (PBUH).

As Angela said who believes that the old testment or new testment are the words of God.?

these books were written by the apostles many centuries after Jesus (PBUH). do you call that the words of God? well i dont think so.

there are many errors in the Bible does God makes error? i dont think so.

Mohammad (PBUH) is prophysiezed in 5 scriptures.

Mohammad (PBUH) is prophysized in the Hindu Scriptures

Mohammad (PBUH) is prophysized in the Parsi Scriptures

Mohammad (PBUH) is prophysized in the Budhist Scriptures.

Mohammad (PBUH) is prophysized in the Bible

Mohammad (PBUH) is prophysized in the Torah

there is no reason for me not to be a Muslim.

If you want to read all these prophesies then please read it in my posts.

Your borher in Islam Khairullah.

Mohammad (PBUH) is prophysized in the Bible

Mohammad (PBUH) is prophysized in the Torah

there is no reason for me not to be a Muslim.

No offense, but this is false...Mohammed is not prophesied in the Torah or Bible...

The Bible by the way is a Greek translation which means many books. Jesus is the only Messiah.

Prophecy
"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel." Isaiah 7:14

Fulfillment
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily. But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Prophecy
"Now gather thyself in troops, O daughter of troops: he hath laid siege against us: they shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek.

But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." Micah 5:1-2

Fulfillment
Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, Matthew 2:1

Prophecy
"Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse." Malachi 4:5-6

Fulfillment
"Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." Matthew 11:11-15

Prophecy
"Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts." Malachi 3:1

Fulfillment
And when the messengers of John were departed, he began to speak unto the people concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness for to see? A reed shaken with the wind? But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? Behold, they which are gorgeously apparelled, and live delicately, are in kings' courts.

But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you, and much more than a prophet. This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
Luke 7:24-30

Prophecy
"Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows." Psalms 45:7

"And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;" Isaiah 11:2

"The spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;" Isaiah 61:1

Fulfillment
"And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Matthew 3:16-17

Prophecy
"Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times." Daniel 9:25

Fulfillment
"Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." Mark 1:14-15

"Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene,

Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.

And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;" Luke 3:1-3

Key Text
"Thus saith God the Lord, He that created the heavens, and stretched them out; He that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; He that giveth breath unto the people upon it, And spirit to them that walk therein:

I the Lord have called Thee in righteousness, And will hold Thine hand, And will keep Thee, and give Thee for a covenant of the people, For a light of the Gentiles;

To open the blind eyes, To bring out the prisoners from the prison,
And them that sit in darkness out of the prison house." Isaiah 42:5-7

Fulfillment
Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and show John again those things which ye do hear and see:

The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them. Matthew 11:4-5

Prophecy
"Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger." Psalms 8:2

Fulfillment
"And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the son of David; they were sore displeased,

And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?" Matthew 21:15-16

Prophecy
"Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him." Psalms 72:11

Fulfillment
"Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, inquired of them diligently what time the star appeared. And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.
When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.

When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.
And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh. " Matthew 2:7-11

King Davids Psalms 22 - written over 1500 years BC. This is a prophecy of Jesus's crucifiction.

Psalm 22

A Cry of Anguish and a Song of Praise.

For the choir director; upon Aijeleth^[a] Hashshahar. A Psalm of David.

    1⁽A)My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?
         ⁽B)Far from my deliverance are the words of my ⁽C)groaning.
    2O my God, I ⁽D)cry by day, but You do not answer;
         And by night, but I have no rest.
    3Yet ⁽E)You are holy,
         O You who are enthroned upon ⁽F)the praises of Israel.
    4In You our fathers ⁽G)trusted;
         They trusted and You ⁽H)delivered them.
    5To You they cried out and were delivered;
         ⁽I)In You they trusted and were not disappointed.
    6But I am a ⁽J)worm and not a man,
         A ⁽K)reproach of men and ⁽L)despised by the people.
    7All who see me ⁽M)sneer at me;
         They ^[b]separate with the lip, they ⁽N)wag the head, saying,
    8"^[c]Commit yourself to the LORD; ⁽O)let Him deliver him;
         Let Him rescue him, because He delights in him."
    9Yet You are He who ⁽P)brought me forth from the womb;
         You made me trust when upon my mother's breasts.
    10Upon You I was cast ⁽Q)from birth;
         You have been my God from my mother's womb.
    11⁽R)Be not far from me, for trouble is near;
         For there is ⁽S)none to help.
    12Many ⁽T)bulls have surrounded me;
         Strong bulls of ⁽U)Bashan have encircled me.
    13They ⁽V)open wide their mouth at me,
         As a ravening and a roaring ⁽W)lion.
    14I am ⁽X)poured out like water,
         And all my ⁽Y)bones are out of joint;
         My ⁽Z)heart is like wax;
         It is melted within me.
    15My ⁽AA)strength is dried up like a potsherd,
         And ⁽AB)my tongue cleaves to my jaws;
         And You ⁽AC)lay me in the dust of death.
    16For ⁽AD)dogs have surrounded me;
         A band of evildoers has encompassed me;
         They ⁽AE)pierced my hands and my feet.
    17I can count all my bones.
         ⁽AF)They look, they stare at me;
    18They ⁽AG)divide my garments among them,
         And for my clothing they cast lots.
    19But You, O LORD, ⁽AH)be not far off;
         O You my help, ⁽AI)hasten to my assistance.
    20Deliver my soul from ⁽AJ)the sword,
         My ⁽AK)only life from the power of the dog.
    21Save me from the ⁽AL)lion's mouth;
         From the horns of the ⁽AM)wild oxen You ⁽AN)answer me.
    22I will ⁽AO)tell of Your name to my brethren;
         In the midst of the assembly I will praise You.
    23⁽AP)You who fear the LORD, praise Him;
         All you descendants of Jacob, ⁽AQ)glorify Him,
         And ⁽AR)stand in awe of Him, all you descendants of Israel.
    24For He has ⁽AS)not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
         Nor has He ⁽AT)hidden His face from him;
         But ⁽AU)when he cried to Him for help, He heard.
    25From You comes ⁽AV)my praise in the great assembly;
         I shall ⁽AW)pay my vows before those who fear Him.
    26The ^[d]afflicted will eat and ⁽AX)be satisfied;
         Those who seek Him will ⁽AY)praise the LORD
         Let your ⁽AZ)heart live forever!
    27All the ⁽BA)ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD,
         And all the ⁽BB)families of the nations will worship before You.
    28For the ⁽BC)kingdom is the LORD'S
         And He ⁽BD)rules over the nations.
    29All the ⁽BE)prosperous of the earth will eat and worship,
         All those who ⁽BF)go down to the dust will bow before Him,
         Even he who ⁽BG)cannot keep his soul alive.
    30⁽BH)Posterity will serve Him;
         It will be told of the Lord to ⁽BI)the coming generation.
    31They will come and ⁽BJ)will declare His righteousness
         To a people ⁽BK)who will be born, that He has performed it.

13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

Buddymann read the forum description and stick to the forum guidlines.

    Rami,

How am I not following the forum guidelines?

buddyman wrote: Mohammad (PBUH) is prophysized in the Bible Mohammad (PBUH) is prophysized in the Torah there is no reason for me not to be a Muslim.   No offense, but this is false...Mohammed is not prophesied in the Torah or Bible... The Bible by the way is a Greek translation which means many books. Jesus is the only Messiah. Prophecy "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel." Isaiah 7:14 Fulfillment Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily. But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Prophecy "Now gather thyself in troops, O daughter of troops: he hath laid siege against us: they shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek. But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." Micah 5:1-2 Fulfillment Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, Matthew 2:1 Prophecy "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse." Malachi 4:5-6 Fulfillment "Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." Matthew 11:11-15

Greetings and welcome. I would say that your contribution is a very cursory approach to asserting church prophecy fulfillment claims. The topic is much deeper and though this kind of post might suffice sunday school pupils, it fails in the arena of discussion with non Christians.

This is from another thread which can be found in the archives of interfaith, it deals with Isaiah 7:14:

Greetings.

I would like to continue with points that I have found which in totality, and by themsleves, represent valid reasons that I have rejected Christianity as a faith, which is far different than rejecting the religion due to personal hatred against the core teachings or many of the wonderful adherents.

I bring attention to a common evidence used by the church to prove their claims about Jesus and the validity of the NT through a prophecy fulfillment.

Claim of Matthew Chapter 1:22-23:

22All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23"The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"-which means, "God with us."

This verse is in reference to Isaiah 7:14, and a claim that Isaiah gave a prophecy about the birth of a future Messiah who would be born of a virgin centuries before the event would take place, giving validity to the Church and its idea of replacement theology. This verse is commonly read during the Christmas season, and a source for strength in the Christian cause. There are two important points that rest on this claim:

1) The validity of the NT. Given that we are told this is a word of Gd, which gives a historical and accurate account of Jesus. If a mistake exists, then one must question everything else.

2) The validity of the church. The group who founded the church chose the narratives that best served their theological beliefs. If the evidences for these beliefs can be found to be highly suspect, then their theological beliefs loose their supporting evidence and also become suspect.

Matthew refers to Isaiah 7:14 specifically. For the purpose of context, I will include all relevant verses in that chapter.

Below is a paste of appropriate verses needed for the discussion from the JPS TANACH, which I dislike, but it suffices for now. I will make comments that explain the context of the verse, the setting, and then provide points that show this is not a prophecy, or a dual prophecy, and given the setting and context, has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus or the late second temple. 

Isaiah 7:1-16

 7:1 And it came to pass in the days of Ahaz the son of Jotham, the son of Uzziah, king of Judah, that Rezin the king of Aram, and Pekah the son of Remaliah, king of Israel, went up to Jerusalem to war against it; but could not prevail against it.

In 732 BCE, we find the Davidic throne under the threat of war from the two warring kingdoms of the North. The Kingdom of Syria and the Kingdom of Israel are trying to destroy the Kingdom of the South and have laid siege to the city of Jerusalem. King Ahaz is about to loose everything, and it should be mentioned that King Ahaz is not a "man of Gd", which will allow this chapter to make sense.

The threat of the Davidic throne is reinforced below.

7:2 And it was told the house of David, saying: 'Aram is confederate with Ephraim.' And his heart was moved, and the heart of his people, as the trees of the forest are moved with the wind.

7:3 Then said the Lord unto Isaiah: 'Go forth now to meet Ahaz, thou, and Shear-jashub thy son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool, in the highway of the fullers' field;

7:4 and say unto him: Keep calm, and be quiet; fear not, neither let thy heart be faint, because of these two tails of smoking firebrands, for the fierce anger of Rezin and Aram, and of the son of Remaliah.

7:5 Because Aram hath counselled evil against thee, Ephraim also, and the son of Remaliah, saying:

7:6 Let us go up against Judah, and vex it, and let us make a breach therein for us, and set up a king in the midst of it, even the son of Tabeel;

7:7 thus saith the Lord GOD: it shall not stand, neither shall it come to pass.

7:8 For the head of Aram is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people;

7:9 And the head of Ephraim is Samaria, and the head of Samaria is Remaliah's son. If ye will not have faith, surely ye shall not be established.'

7:10 And the Lord spoke again unto Ahaz, saying:

7:11 'Ask thee a sign of the Lord thy God: ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.'

7:12 But Ahaz said: 'I will not ask, neither will I try the Lord.'

7:13 And he said: 'Hear ye now, O house of David: Is it a small thing for you to weary men, that ye will weary my God also?

7:14 Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

7:16 Yea, before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land whose two kings thou hast a horror of shall be forsaken.

Andalus,

I am actually a Sabbath keeper...no Sunday school for me. Maybe you should study the Book of Daniel...especially the 70 weeks.

I apologize for the spamming...I really didn't know that copying and pasting scripture would be considered spamming.

Also, there are more prophecies that were fillfilled by Jesus...not just Isaiah 7:14.....

You mention the Tanach, are you Jewish?

buddyman wrote: I really didn't know that copying and pasting scripture would be considered spamming.

It's not really.

jdtiger2002 wrote: I have read Quran book and learned more about Muslim's religious. I can see that Quran has many miracles. It sounds like God's words. I heard that Quran has no errors and others books have many errors. I have seen that Holy Bible has many errors. One thing bother me that false prophets will come after Jesus. Is Muhammad true prophet even though Holy Bible says that there will be false prophets after Jesus? Please read this verses and explain to me if you really believe that Muhammad is true prophet. I want to understand. I picked two verses from Holy Bible. These verses seem powerful 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.  14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.  15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.   1 John 4:1-6 1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.  2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:  3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.  4Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.  5They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.  6We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Yes, Mohammed fits the false prophet profile to a tee.  He denied the Lord Jesus Christ, and his followers today prove that they are not Children of God by their hatred and wicked deeds.  The whole world sees them as evil.

Jasonchristian wrote: Yes, Mohammed fits the false prophet profile to a tee.  He denied the Lord Jesus Christ, and his followers today prove that they are not Children of God by their hatred and wicked deeds.  The whole world sees them as evil.

"The whole world was astonished and followed the beast." (Revelation 13 of the BIBLE)

So if the whole world is against Islam, that means Islam is against the Beast and according to the Bible (revelation chapter 13) the Beast is allied to the False Prophet, so this means that Muslims are the enemies of the Beast and the false prophet!!!

Sawtul Khilafah wrote: Jasonchristian wrote: Yes, Mohammed fits the false prophet profile to a tee.  He denied the Lord Jesus Christ, and his followers today prove that they are not Children of God by their hatred and wicked deeds.  The whole world sees them as evil.   "The whole world was astonished and followed the beast." (Revelation 13 of the BIBLE) So if the whole world is against Islam, that means Islam is against the Beast and according to the Bible (revelation chapter 13) the Beast is allied to the False Prophet, so this means that Muslims are the enemies of the Beast and the false prophet!!!

Regardless of your dumb interpretation of the words in Revelation which deal with the anti-Christ and not the world's preception of the evil of Muslims, you should be aware of Jesus' words in Matt. 24:

 4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

 5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

 6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

 7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

 8All these are the beginning of sorrows.

 9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

 10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

 11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

 12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

 13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

 4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

 5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

 6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

 7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

 8All these are the beginning of sorrows.

 9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

 10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

 11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

 12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

 13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mohammed came and deceived many.  His followers hate Christians and cut off their heads, in fulfillment of what will happen to Christian  martyrs -  oh you who thinks he knows the Book of Revelation. Read John 3 and repent and come to Christ.

What does that have to do with Islam and Prophet Mohammad (pbuh)???

In fact, every time the Bible refers to righteous people, they fit in with the description of Muslims:

After these things I saw, and lo, a great multitude, which to number no one was able, out of all nations, and tribes, and peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne, and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hand

[Revelation chapter 7:9]

 Actually, These words presented by Jason are not reaaly the words of Jesus. Even if they are, they are telling some immediate story. Not a story 600 years after Jesus. See:

 4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

 5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

 Muhammad did not come in the name of christ. So that point about our dear prophet is based on wrong reports. Muhammad came and did everything in the name of Allah, not in th name of Jesus. Heupheld the glory or respect of Jesus though. If Muhammad had not supported Jesus, nobody would have known Jesus by now.

 Jesus advised his followers to be careful of the cheaters. That was an immediate advice for the followers. But they got misled. Paul was the first anti-christ. He being an enemy of Jesus, cooked a story about some vision and hoodwinked the lot of followers. Those followers were very weak in their faith because their leader (Jesus) had left them in a hurry while they were not yet fully trained. So paul was able to teach everything the opposite of what Jesus had been teaching, i.e. 1. Jesus is son of God. 2.  Jesus is god in flesh. 3. God has three parts (Trinity). 4. Jesus died on the cross. 5. Jesus gave his blood for the sinners 6. That every born child is a sinner 7. There is no need of any law. 8. No need of sabath. 9. No need of circumcision. 10. Eat pork as much as you can.

 Please all friends see that Jesus did not teach even one of the above mentioned things. Paul, to please the greeks, allowed the eating of the swines flesh. Jason cannot blame Muhammad as anti-christ. His anti-christ has been well known for ages. Why does not he look to that paul to decietfully became a disciple, even a messenger.

 Muhammad was never a messenger of Jesus. But paul and his kind were messengers of Jesus. So please spare Muhammad. Also note that Jesus said many false prophets will come. Muhammad is just one person. Who are the rest of your false prophets. Itis clear that they are your own saints.

minuteman wrote:    Actually, These words presented by Jason are not reaaly the words of Jesus. Even if they are, they are telling some immediate story. Not a story 600 years after Jesus. See:  4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.  5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.  Muhammad did not come in the name of christ. So that point about our dear prophet is based on wrong reports. Muhammad came and did everything in the name of Allah, not in th name of Jesus. Heupheld the glory or respect of Jesus though. If Muhammad had not supported Jesus, nobody would have known Jesus by now.  Jesus advised his followers to be careful of the cheaters. That was an immediate advice for the followers. But they got misled. Paul was the first anti-christ. He being an enemy of Jesus, cooked a story about some vision and hoodwinked the lot of followers. Those followers were very weak in their faith because their leader (Jesus) had left them in a hurry while they were not yet fully trained. So paul was able to teach everything the opposite of what Jesus had been teaching, i.e. 1. Jesus is son of God. 2.  Jesus is god in flesh. 3. God has three parts (Trinity). 4. Jesus died on the cross. 5. Jesus gave his blood for the sinners 6. That every born child is a sinner 7. There is no need of any law. 8. No need of sabath. 9. No need of circumcision. 10. Eat pork as much as you can.  Please all friends see that Jesus did not teach even one of the above mentioned things. Paul, to please the greeks, allowed the eating of the swines flesh. Jason cannot blame Muhammad as anti-christ. His anti-christ has been well known for ages. Why does not he look to that paul to decietfully became a disciple, even a messenger.  Muhammad was never a messenger of Jesus. But paul and his kind were messengers of Jesus. So please spare Muhammad. Also note that Jesus said many false prophets will come. Muhammad is just one person. Who are the rest of your false prophets. It is clear that they are your own saints.

 Good Points. Now the polemics will know and realise why Muhammad was sent to the neighbouring Arabs.

Thanks

BMZ

 It may not help the guy at all. But the material can be useful for our own minds. BMZ is back. Al Hamdu Lillah.

 I was greatly wondering at the divine plan of Allah that Hazrat Abrhama a.s. settled his first borne Ishmael a.s. in a mountain area very far away from Kanaan. The second son Issac a.s was to live in Kanaan. Kanaan was populated to some extent and so was Lebanon, the land of milk and honey.

 The above mentioned lands were later occupied by the Romans and others i.e. by the Kings etc.  But the area of Makkah was never occupied by any king seriously. They had no interest in that area. That is where our holy prophet s.a.w.s. was born in the in the 50 generation after Abraham a.s.

 Holy prophet Muhammad s.a.w.s. had to fight the native pagans only in the beginning. There was no king to interfere. That was something great and useful for the establishment of the last book of law for the entire world. Had their been a king in the area, only God knows what would have happened. That is because, we see what Moses a.s. and Jesus a.s. had to go through in their own areas in their own times.

salaam i am sorry can i tell something little i couldnt read all of it but i wanted to share.We muslims believe that Holy Bible is falsified as you know.We know Holy Bible as "incil" in our language(i am a turkish muslim).We pronounce it like "njil", i hope, think.We know that, i had learned it from one of my teachers, it means Harbinger (they look alike) and we know that Jesus alaihissalaam says that "...i harbinger that a prophet named Ahmad will come after me..."we learned like this.Our prophets full name is "Ahmad Mahmod Mohammad Mostafa".unfortunately there is no an unfalsified Bible.

sorry you go on please

 Jesus (Isa a.s.) had warned his friends about the false prophets (See Mathews ch. 24 verses 3,4,5) who might mislead them. Now the christians think that Muhammad was one of those false prophets. That is not so.

 The reason is that Jesus had said that many will come in my name to mislead you my friends. Beware. Take care.

 Muhammad never came and preached anything in the name of Jesus. Also our prophet Muhammad s.a.w.s. came 600 years after Jesus. That is a very long time. The false prophets told by Jesus would not wait so long to appear. They appeared on the scene soon after the disappearance of Isa a.s. The most important of them using the name of Jesus was paul. He tried to be a disciple of Jesus and he contributed to most of the bible new testament and it is his beliefs that christians follow today, not the teachings of Jesus.

Muhammad came in the name of Allah and preached the message of Allah. He never even one day preached any message of Jesus. Sorry if all this goes against the beliefs of the christian friends. My purpose is only to tell the beliefs of the Muslims.It is for information only. Not to hurt any one.

Sawtul Khilafah wrote: What does that have to do with Islam and Prophet Mohammad (pbuh)??? In fact, every time the Bible refers to righteous people, they fit in with the description of Muslims:   After these things I saw, and lo, a great multitude, which to number no one was able, out of all nations, and tribes, and peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne, and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hand [Revelation chapter 7:9]

hmmmmm....why would muslims be standing before the Lamb? - they don't even acknowledge him.  And I don't see any palms in the hands of the muslims in your pictures....

"Muhammad came in the name of Allah and preached the message of Allah. He never even one day preached any message of Jesus. Sorry if all this goes against the beliefs of the christian friends."

Actually, minuteman, we are already fully aware of this.  We already know that the message of the Lord Jesus did not come from Allah....

The question is what are the characteristics of God...hmmm

New Testament in which Jesus is revealed as the Eternal Creator and not a created being (John 1:1�4). As we compare Scripture definitions for God with the Bible record of Jesus, we see the characteristics of Jehovah are also ascribed to Jesus. Note these powerful examples:

• He is self-existent (John 1:1�4; 14:6); only God is self-existent (Psalm 90:2).
  
• Jesus defines Himself as eternal. �I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty� (Revelation 1:8).
  
• He is, and has, eternal life (1 John 5:11, 12, 20).
  
• He is all-powerful (Revelation 1:8).
  
• He created all things (John 1:3). �In the beginning God created the heaven and the

earth� (Genesis 1:1). �For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him� (Colossians 1:16 NKJV).

• The Father even calls Jesus God. �But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom� (Hebrews 1:8).
  
• Jesus is able to forgive sin (Luke 5:20, 21); The Bible says only God can forgive sin (Isaiah 43:25).
  
• Jesus accepted worship that according to the Ten Commandments is reserved only for the Almighty (Matthew 14:33). �And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, �All hail.� And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him� (Matthew 28:9). Upon seeing the risen Savior, the converted skeptic, Thomas, confessed, �My Lord and my God!� (John 20:26�29).
  
• Even the angels worship Jesus. �And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him� (Hebrews 1:6).

• The Scriptures also teach that only God knows the thoughts of a man�s heart (1 Kings 8:39). Yet Jesus consistently knew what people were thinking, �for he knew what was in man� (John 2:25). �Nathanael said to Him, �How do You know me?� Jesus answered and said to him, �Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you�� (John 1:48 NKJV).
  
• Through the Spirit, Jesus is omnipresent. �Lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age� (Matthew 28:20 NKJV). �For I am with you, and no one will attack you to hurt you; for I have many people in this city� (Acts 18:10 NKJV).
  
• He has power to give life, and even resurrected Himself. �No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again� (John 10:18). �I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live� (John 11:25).

Genesis 1:26 (New American Standard Bible)

As you read above, God has always given us a way of knowing who he is.

Jesus also said "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father" - John

Jesus also said "Before Abraham, I AM". The translation in " I AM" is Yahweh...

Jesus also said "Before Abraham, I AM". The translation in " I AM" is Yahweh...

 Should it not be, "Before Araham, I was"? Also the translation of I AM is Yahweh. Do you mean to say that the translation of the actual words Yahweh is I AM??? Or is it the other way around??

 Should it not be, "Before Araham, I was"? Also the translation of I AM is Yahweh. Do you mean to say that the translation of the actual words Yahweh is I AM??? Or is it the other way around??

  That is not what the scriptures say. Jesus said "Before Abraham, IAM".

When Moses was in the wilderness who did the burning bush say he was? He said " I AM THAT IAM". God has always been. He is eternal.

buddyman wrote: Genesis 1:26 (New American Standard Bible) http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/?action=getVersionInfo&vid=49 - (NASB)   26Then God said, "Let (A)Us make (B)man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them (C)rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."   Why do you suppose its says "God said "Let US make man in OUR image". That's plural. Do you not believe that God is almighty, All Knowing, and can do anything?

That is a good question, "why do we suppose". And what reply would be the most reasonable?

Your approach uses the fallacy of circular reasoning. Simply put, this is the conclusion of an argument that is assumed in the premise. The verses in question is an "implicit" verse, not an "explicit" verse (as I have told you before, the proof verses of the church concerning their primary pillars of beliefs are based upon implicit verses), so one may read interpretations into it, the question is, is the interpretation valid, reasonable, and sound.

Nothing in the verse implies the trinty, and one must already have the belief to try and claim this is OT proof for a triune god.

So is God referring to His angelic "court", or do we have a triune God speaking out in one voice, Jesus and Father and Ghost harmonizing together in one voice that they are creating everything at the same time?

The only proof that it is a triune God is comes from the assumption buried in the premise. We know God has angels, and we know that God speaking in a plural does not "necessarily" mean that it is a triune being. There simply is not enough in the verse to allow for your interpretation.

The names of God reveal attributes of His nature. God has a long-established habit of using various names to describe a person�s character. Jacob earned his name that means �swindler� when he practiced deception to steal his father�s blessing away from his brother Esau (Genesis 27:35, 36). At his conversion, Jacob wrestled with the angel and insisted on the blessing of God. Then his name was changed to �Israel,� which means �a prince with God� (Genesis 32:26�28).      Likewise, the names for God found in Genesis and elsewhere tell us volumes about our Creator. �And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness� (Genesis 1:26). The Hebrew word here for God is Elohim. It is a plural noun that is used more than 2,700 times in the Old Testament. This means that inspired authors preferred to use Elohim about 10 times more than the singular form �El� when they described God.

This is a fallacy called a non-sequitur, meaning "does not follow". In other words, If God refers to Himself in a plural form of a noun 5 times more than a singular noun, then it does not follow from this relationship that God is a plural godhead. There simply is not enough information to allow for such a conclusion. You cannot conjecture about the likes and dislikes of God concerning plural nouns based solely upon the amount of time He says one thing or another.

Furthermore, it is a non-sequitur because if it is a plurality, then it is not necessarily a "triune" plurality. Plurality does not imply "trinity".

I must also point out that in Gen1:1, .."God Created.." the verb created is a singular noun. Also, if Elohim necessarily implies a plurality, then Moses must be confused, .....""See, I have made thee a god (Elohim) to Pharaoh, and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet." (KJV)" Exodus 7:1.

So maybe God is a quadrinity!?

Even in the Old Testament book of Daniel, we see a picture of the Father and the Son as two separate persons. �I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him� (Daniel 7:13). The Son of man, Jesus, is seen coming before the Ancient of Days�who is, obviously, God the Father.

Your piece failed to give the surrounding verses for �context�. Once more we are being lead by �circular reasoning� and an �implicit verse�. What is a reasonable interpretation? That this is Jesus, one of three of a triune godhead, or, given that the entire vision in the surrounding verses has described 4 beasts, and now the next figure is not a beast, but �a son of man�, literally a �human� �non-beast�. A son of man is in contrast to the definite article your piece has placed before son (your piece uses �the� son of man, not �a� son of man).

I will stop here as I have given sufficient reason why I reject your article�s argument.

Regards

Andalus,

I believe you've been the one who has been taught out of context. Through out the Bible God tells us who he is. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure it out. You don't have to agree, and that is your choice. I must also point out that you have not read every book of the Bible. All you have been taught is to dispute the Godhead/Trinity, so that's were all your focus has been. You need to read and STUDY the entire Bible.

Still waiting on your notes about Daniel.

minuteman wrote:     Jesus also said "Before Abraham, I AM". The translation in " I AM" is Yahweh...  Should it not be, "Before Araham, I was"? Also the translation of I AM is Yahweh. Do you mean to say that the translation of the actual words Yahweh is I AM??? Or is it the other way around??

Jesus did not say before Abraham I was. He said "Before Abraham I AM". I say I am many things, but I would not say I was before my grandmother, would I?

Jesus Speaking in the Temple

 We understand that he (Jesus) and Father are one. That is no harm. You see that the christains use too  many metaphors. Jesus is not the real son of God. he is only spiritual son of God. Jesus is the begotten son of God. that is also not real. begotten in the sense that he was spiritually begotten.

We see that the christians will keep on using such words without telling any one that they are not in the real general sense of the words. If they tell in the beginning that Jesus was the spiritual son of god then we may not have too much difference and we may not deny or argue in that matter.

Butthe christians will keep on pressing that Jesus was the son of God. He was the begotten son of god. But when forcd and questioned and cornered seriously, they will say,Ph, he is not the real biological son of God... What a joke. If they say that in the beginning then there would notbe so much argument.

It is same about Trinity. They will press for three gods. When they are bombarded from various angles then they realize that it is a difficult thing to pass off easily. So they will say that God is one. Then they will say that god is one and three at the same time. How could that be??

Then about Jesus. They need him as a man and as a son of a man, and as a god and as a son of god and as a teacher and saviour and as prophet too. Now when he is a god himself thn why he should be a prophet of god. Is he a prophet of himself??? I am sure that the christians cannot explain any of tehse things but let them do it if they can. We are ready to listen to their lecture.

The topic here is false prophets. We believe John the baptist was a true prophet of God. So was Zakariyyah. So was Jesus. And also we believe in all the Mosaic prophets of God before Jesus as true prophets. I see that it is only Muhammad who is tellingus that Jesus was a true prophet of God and so was John the baptist. No one else believes thatJesus was a prophet at all. If any nation other than Muslims believes that Jesus was a prophet of God then I would like to know about those people.

The christians do not realise the importance of the good work of Muhammad. No one believes other than christians believe in Jesus as a good man even. Leave alone that any one will admit that he was a prophet of god.

buddyman wrote: Andalus, I believe you've been the one who has been taught out of context. Through out the Bible God tells us who he is. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure it out. You don't have to agree, and that is your choice.

So this means you have no reply to anything I have written? All of the copying and pasting you have done and now you sit in silence. That is a shame. It is a shame that faced with valid objections to your beliefs, you simply deflect and blame me for "not having read the bible", and "not being tuaght properly". 

I must also point out that you have not read every book of the Bible.

Irrelevant. (though I know your OT very well and your NT fairly well).

I have read your bible enough to know that your beliefs I replied to are weak and are problematic.

All you have been taught is to dispute the Godhead/Trinity, so that's were all your focus has been. You need to read and STUDY the entire Bible.

All you have been taught is to believe the trinity without question, so much so that you will take implicit verses in the bible and twist them until you can superimose your theological opinions on them.

Furthermore, you have no idea what I have been taught or what my background is. If my case is so weak, then show where my fault is by replying with relevant material directly to my points of objections.

Still waiting on your notes about Daniel.

Actually I did reply, the ball is in your court.  

Hi

I have gone through the posts and would like to say that the original poster is a Christian and uless we define the Prophets and have criteria for a truthful prophet and criteria of a false prophet we cannot discern false prophet from a true prophet.

To start with I would quote three passages from OTBible:

"If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, 'Let us follow other gods' (gods you have not known) 'and let us worship them,' you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you" (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NIV).

Another test for determining false prophets in the Torah is found in Deuteronomy 18:20-22. The text is as follows:

"You may say to yourselves, 'How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?' If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him" (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NIV).

The penalty for false prophecy, according to the biblical context, is capital punishment (per Deuteronomy 13:1-5).

buddyman wrote: minuteman wrote:    We understand that he (Jesus) and Father are one. That is no harm. You see that the christains use too  many metaphors. Jesus is not the real son of God. he is only spiritual son of God. Jesus is the begotten son of God. that is also not real. begotten in the sense that he was spiritually begotten.   If it was spiritual we would have been told it was. We see that the christians will keep on using such words without telling any one that they are not in the real general sense of the words. If they tell in the beginning that Jesus was the spiritual son of god then we may not have too much difference and we may not deny or argue in that matter. They are not really in the sense of the word??? Sounds like an excuse to me. Butthe christians will keep on pressing that Jesus was the son of God. He was the begotten son of god. But when forcd and questioned and cornered seriously, they will say,Ph, he is not the real biological son of God... What a joke. If they say that in the beginning then there would notbe so much argument. Again you make no sense. You haven't given me a question I haven't answered. It is same about Trinity. They will press for three gods. When they are bombarded from various angles then they realize that it is a difficult thing to pass off easily. So they will say that God is one. Then they will say that god is one and three at the same time. How could that be?? it is you who is bombarded. The Bible says if you deny Jesus you will not be saved. You see, all you guys do is provide quotes with out actually reading the Bible in its entirety. Then about Jesus. They need him as a man and as a son of a man, and as a god and as a son of god and as a teacher and saviour and as prophet too. Now when he is a god himself thn why he should be a prophet of god. Is he a prophet of himself??? I am sure that the christians cannot explain any of tehse things but let them do it if they can. We are ready to listen to their lecture. How sad that you don't believe God is almighty.he can do everything and anything. The topic here is false prophets. We believe John the baptist was a true prophet of God. So was Zakariyyah. So was Jesus. And also we believe in all the Mosaic prophets of God before Jesus as true prophets. I see that it is only Muhammad who is tellingus that Jesus was a true prophet of God and so was John the baptist. No one else believes thatJesus was a prophet at all. If any nation other than Muslims believes that Jesus was a prophet of God then I would like to know about those people. The word prophet means messenger. There is a Messiah, which Jesus prooved tohave been. If you read the Bible you would know. The christians do not realise the importance of the good work of Muhammad. No one believes other than christians believe in Jesus as a good man even. Leave alone that any one will admit that he was a prophet of god. Mohammed murdered. Jesus have life. Mohammed sinned. Jesus NEVER sinned...think about that.

Please do not insult the Prophet (saw). This is against forum guid lines. You are allowed to discuss topics about Prophet Muhammad (saw), just as long as it is a discussion and you bring evidence to support your claims.

I am curious! According to you,Moses prayed to Jesus because God is a triune godhead since the beginning. If this is so, then Jesus would actually be a murderer according to your own bible. The babies and children and women at Jericho present a theological problem to the missionary diatribe of Jesus loving all babies and loving only peace. Prophet Muhammad (saw) never committed a murder, and if you claim he is a murderer, then bring your proof or do not slander him (saw). Neither did Prophet Jesus (saw) ever order the slaughter of babies and women as your theology and holy book imply.

regards 

 We understand that he (Jesus) and Father are one. That is no harm. You see that the christains use too  many metaphors.

If it was spiritual we would have been told it was.

Dear me , I have been to other christian boards and they (protestants) aftera long long discussion admitted that Jesus was not a real son of God. he was not a biological son of God. They rathe raccused us about thinking that Jesus was the real son of God. You are talking in a different language.

We see that the christians will keep on using such words without telling any one that they are not in the real general sense of the words. .

They are not really in the sense of the word??? Sounds like an excuse to me.

That is a problem. There are too many metaphors. I and Father are one. That is a simple sentence and we understand that Jesus is from God. That God is with him. That is all. Nothing more. There is no need to put Jesus into the Father.

Butthe christians will keep on pressing that Jesus was the son of God. He was the begotten son of god.

Again you make no sense. You haven't given me a question I haven't answered.

You are not the only one. It is true that I have not discussed this with you at length. But it has been done for a long time on another christian board and I am giving you their remarks that we got in the end aftera long dual and gruel.

It is same about Trinity. They will press for three gods. When they are bombarded from various angles then they realize that it is a difficult thing to pass off easily. So they will say that God is one. Then they will say that god is one and three at the same time. How could that be??

it is you who is bombarded. The Bible says if you deny Jesus you will not be saved. You see, all you guys do is provide quotes with out actually reading the Bible in its entirety.

Jesus never taught Trinity. He never uttered the word Trinity. Show me it from the bible if you have. We do no deny the real status of Jesus. While you abuse Muhammad, we believe in Jesus as a true prophet of God. That was also the belief of the maximum people of his native homeland. That believed inJesus as a prophet. So, please do not say "If you deny Jesus...." Butdon't at the same time expect that we will take Jesus as a God. Give us some breathing space.

Then about Jesus. They need him as a man and as a son of a man, and as a god and as a son of god and as a teacher and saviour and as prophet too. Now when he is a god himself thn why he should be a prophet of god. Is he a prophet of himself???

How sad that you don't believe God is almighty.he can do everything and anything.

Of course God can do what He likes. Remember the word "What He likes" and not what you like. God is almighty and can do what He likes.

The topic here is false prophets. We believe John the baptist was a true prophet of God. So was Zakariyyah. So was Jesus. And also we believe in all the Mosaic prophets of God before Jesus as true prophets.

The word prophet means messenger. There is a Messiah, which Jesus prooved tohave been. If you read the Bible you would know.

We read the bible and we agree that Jesus was the Messiah, the promised Messiah. The one who had come to improve the lot of the Jews....

The christians do not realise the importance of the good work of Muhammad. No one believes other than christians believe in Jesus as a good man even.

Mohammed murdered. Jesus have life. Mohammed sinned. Jesus NEVER sinned...think about that.

That was very bad of you. If it was not for Muhammad then nobody would have known about Jesus. There are christains (Say 2 billion) in the world. There are Muslims (say 1.6 billion) in the world. So altogether 3.6 billion people believe in Jesus as a messenger of Allah. That should be enough and good for all.

My latest remarks are all in pink color.

Andalus wrote: buddyman wrote: Andalus, I believe you've been the one who has been taught out of context. Through out the Bible God tells us who he is. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure it out. You don't have to agree, and that is your choice. So this means you have no reply to anything I have written? All of the copying and pasting you have done and now you sit in silence. That is a shame. It is a shame that faced with valid objections to your beliefs, you simply deflect and blame me for "not having read the bible", and "not being tuaght properly".  I must also point out that you have not read every book of the Bible. Irrelevant. (though I know your OT very well and your NT fairly well). I have read your bible enough to know that your beliefs I replied to are weak and are problematic.    All you have been taught is to dispute the Godhead/Trinity, so that's were all your focus has been. You need to read and STUDY the entire Bible. All you have been taught is to believe the trinity without question, so much so that you will take implicit verses in the bible and twist them until you can superimose your theological opinions on them. Furthermore, you have no idea what I have been taught or what my background is. If my case is so weak, then show where my fault is by replying with relevant material directly to my points of objections.   Still waiting on your notes about Daniel. Actually I did reply, the ball is in your court.

Andalus,

That is a cop out. You know it and I know it. If you have proof of something I'm sure you post it immediatley. As for knowing the OT...Daniel is in the OT...hmmm. Your arguements are very weak. You're afraid that you're being proven wrong. You shouldn't look at it that way. You should be filled with joy that God loves you so much that he is reaching out to you so you will know him.

God Bless You

islamispeace wrote: "Mohammed murdered. Jesus have life. Mohammed sinned. Jesus NEVER sinned...think about that." Complete and utter nonsense.  I thought you were better than that buddyman.  Slandering the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)?  What do you know about the blessed Muhammad (pbuh)?  He was no murderer.  He was the greatest man to have ever lived, and the most beloved to Allah (swt).  Do not slander him.  He was a brother to Jesus and they both worshiped Allah (swt) alone.

Islamispeace,

Are you serious? You say Mohammed never killed?

paarsurrey wrote: Hi I have gone through the posts and would like to say that the original poster is a Christian and uless we define the Prophets and have criteria for a truthful prophet and criteria of a false prophet we cannot discern false prophet from a true prophet. To start with I would quote three passages from OTBible: "If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, 'Let us follow other gods' (gods you have not known) 'and let us worship them,' you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you" (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NIV). Another test for determining false prophets in the Torah is found in Deuteronomy 18:20-22. The text is as follows: "But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death." "You may say to yourselves, 'How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?' If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him" (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NIV). The penalty for false prophecy, according to the biblical context, is capital punishment (per Deuteronomy 13:1-5). I would like to point out that our Prophet Muhammad , Peace be upon him,Khatumun Nabiyyeen, could not be killed by the Jews and Christians though they were the world power at that time, and great in numbers, and they had been clearly commanded in OTBible to kill a false prophet and should not be afraid of him. This proves beyond doubt that Muhammad was a truthful Prophet . Paul was a false Prophet and hence he was killed. Thanks

These are very good points, but you forget one thing. The false prophets worshipped OTHER Gods. The didn't worship the same God. Not only that, there has only been ONE God that gave the Ten Commandments. One of the Commandments was to rest on the Seventh Day Sabbath. So if a false prophets has visions and dreams and they come to pass, but they do not agree with the previous prophets, then he is a false prophet.

Please re-read the original post. I believe somewhere in there it says that the have to keep the testimony of God which is the Law....

Also, Jesus was also put to death, and we know what he said was the truth. If you disagree with Jesus, then you are not a true Muslim.

rami wrote: Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem 13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. Jesus said beware of those who speak in my name, the first person to speak in jesus's name while having never met him  [ie transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ] or known his teachings was paul yet when you look at the bible and christianity today he is the key figure whose teachings are followed even more so than jesus himself. Had his words been taken out of the bible you would see a different Christianity than the one you have today. Unlike paul the Prophet muhammad [sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam] did not speak in the name of Jesus or with his authority he was a prophet in his own right with his own book of revelations, the community he was sent amongst where not Christians so Jesus warning his followers about false prophets after can not apply to him since islam did not primarily spread to Christian areas until after the prophets time. look also at religion prior to Christianity, all faiths and all prophets had been monotheistic for thousands of years there message of one god had been the same, then some 300 years after the death of christ out of nowhere the doctrine of the trinity is invented [as it is not explicitly mentioned anywhere in the bible] and then forced onto the wrold. Buddymann read the forum description and stick to the forum guidlines.

Actually Paul did meet Jesus. Jesus appreared to Paul while he was on his way to persecute the Christians. Also, how do you know someone? Jesus said to know him, right? Do you know what else he said about knowing him?

How come everytime I post something that you guys don't agree with, you say to stick with forum guidelines?

By the way, I'd also like to mention to you people that I in no way try to insult anybody. I grew up with a Muslim man. He was from Iraq. He was a wonderful person. I loved him like a Father figure. He was always very respectful, kind and generous.

This does not mean, when I post something that you have to TAKE it as an insult. The mere fact that you guys deny Jesus the Christ as God is blasphemy in my eyes. I still let you have your opinion, just as God lets us have our opinion.

I believe in a loving God. A God that wants us to come to him willfully, not forcefully.

After this "victory" Mohammed and the Muslims became encouraged, and stepped up their raiding behaviour. Many Bedouin tribes were drawn to the Muslim circle by the military victories and prospects of treasure, adding their strength to Mohammed's. It was at this time that Mohammed finished the expulsion of the several Jewish tribes from Medina, and expropriated their lands and properties for himself and his followers.

Victory over Mecca was finally obtained in 630 AD. Using an insignificant incident to provoke a clash of arms, Mohammed led his followers against Mecca, this just a year after Mohammed had signed a ten year peace treaty with that city. The Meccans, who were recognising the solidification of Mohammed's power and the ascendancy of his arms, folded with barely a fight, and the Muslims entered victoriously into the city. As a result of these years of piracy, Muhammed had amassed great personal wealth and power, and Arab tribes from all over the peninsula flocked to him.

During the course of all this fighting and raiding, Mohammed and his Muslim followers developed a love for fighting and loot which came from the life of piracy.

"When he was at the head of a robber community (in Medina) it is probable that the demoralizing influence began to be felt; it was then that men who had never broken an oath learned that they might evade their obligations, and that men to whom the blood of the clansmen had been as their own began to shed it with impunity in the cause of God; and that lying and treachery, in the cause of Islam, received divine approval, hesitation to perjure oneself in that cause being represented as a weakness. It was then, too, that Moslems became distinguished by the obscenity of their language. It was then, too, that the coveting of goods and wives (possessed by unbelievers) was avowed without discouragement from the prophet." http://www.studytoanswer.net/myths_ch5.html#ch5 - ⁴⁰

What honour these men had from their previous upbringing in the culture of Arabic tradition, what morality they may have engendered from their traditional raising, slowly eroded as the sin in their lives increased and increased. As they became increasingly hardened in their hearts, and their consciences seared, crimes which would before have been unthinkable to them gradually became commonplace.

Islam as a vehicle to wealth and power is clearly demonstrated. Muhammed himself received, by "divine" decree, a fifth of all booty captured in war,

"To whichever village you go and settle therein, there is your share therein, and whichever village disobeys Allah and His Messenger, its one-fifth is for Allah and His Messenger and the remainder is for you." http://www.studytoanswer.net/myths_ch5.html#ch5 - ⁴¹

The rest, of course, went to the Muslim followers who took part in battle. Hence, it was good money to be in the business of warfare as a Muslim. After conquest, Islam was further strengthened by the "three choices" option imposed upon conquered peoples. Subject nations were offered one of three choices: Accept Islam and become members of Dar es-Salaam; pay the jizyah, the unbelievers tax; or death http://www.studytoanswer.net/myths_ch5.html#ch5 - ⁴² . Either way, Islam benefited materially. Unbelievers either became Muslims and contributed to the enhancement of Islamic warmaking, booty-gathering, and social strength; or they became direct sources of revenue for Islamic states; or else they ceased to be "in the way" of Islam's expansion. Mohammed and his religion's attraction to wealth truly bears witness to the Biblical record found in I Timothy 6:10, "For the love of money is the root of all evil...".

buddyman wrote: paarsurrey wrote: I would like to point out that our Prophet Muhammad , Peace be upon him,Khatumun Nabiyyeen, could not be killed by the Jews and Christians though they were the world power at that time, and great in numbers, and they had been clearly commanded in OTBible to kill a false prophet and should not be afraid of him. This proves beyond doubt that Muhammad was a truthful Prophet . Paul was a false Prophet and hence he was killed. Thanks Also, Jesus was also put to death, and we know what he said was the truth. If you disagree with Jesus, then you are not a true Muslim.

Hi 

You mentioned in your post that Muhammad was a false Prophet (I take refuge from God) the the Jews and Christian must have killed him as per the OTBible, since they could not kill him that single point proves beyond doubt that Muhammad was a true Prophet and all Christians and Jews including the Pope and others are sinful and wrogdoers in terms of Deuteronomy 13:

12 If you hear it said about one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you to live in 13 that wicked men have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. Destroy it completely, ^[a] both its people and its livestock. 16 Gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God. It is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt. 17 None of those condemned things ^[b] shall be found in your hands, so that the LORD will turn from his fierce anger; he will show you mercy, have compassion on you, and increase your numbers, as he promised on oath to your forefathers, 18 because you obey the LORD your God, keeping all his commands that I am giving you today and doing what is right in his eyes.

paarsurrey wrote: buddyman wrote: paarsurrey wrote: I would like to point out that our Prophet Muhammad , Peace be upon him,Khatumun Nabiyyeen, could not be killed by the Jews and Christians though they were the world power at that time, and great in numbers, and they had been clearly commanded in OTBible to kill a false prophet and should not be afraid of him. This proves beyond doubt that Muhammad was a truthful Prophet . Paul was a false Prophet and hence he was killed. Thanks Also, Jesus was also put to death, and we know what he said was the truth. If you disagree with Jesus, then you are not a true Muslim. Hi  You mentioned in your post that Muhammad was a false Prophet (I take refuge from God) the the Jews and Christian must have killed him as per the OTBible, since they could not kill him that single point proves beyond doubt that Muhammad was a true Prophet and all Christians and Jews including the Pope and others are sinful and wrogdoers in terms of Deuteronomy 13: 12 If you hear it said about one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you to live in 13 that wicked men have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. Destroy it completely, [a] both its people and its livestock. 16 Gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God. It is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt. 17 None of those condemned things [b] shall be found in your hands, so that the LORD will turn from his fierce anger; he will show you mercy, have compassion on you, and increase your numbers, as he promised on oath to your forefathers, 18 because you obey the LORD your God, keeping all his commands that I am giving you today and doing what is right in his eyes. The Jews and Christians did attack Muhammad and his followers but were defeated and routed out by Muhammad SAW. As far as Jesus is concerned, he was never killed by Jews on the Cross, though he was put on Cross but he was saved by God. I disagree with you but I don't disagree with Jesus. Paul was killed as he was a false Prophet. Thanks

So why was John the Baptist killed?  Was he a false prophet?

Assalamu Alaikum and hi everyone,

Please engage in discussion and don't post links or materials from anti-Islam propaganda sources; there is enough of that elsewhere. 

Once again, engage in a sincere dialogue, and comply with guidelines:

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4589&PN=1 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4589& ; ;PN=1

Peace

Buddyman,

lucky for us you are a bad copy-and-paste person.

Please dont plagerize even if its from an anti-Islamic site. By the way, that site is poorly researched and poorly written as the person is subjectifying his so-called unbiased with research with his/her personal views. My guess to this is, you are copying and pasting this crap because you believe it to be true, therefore, any sites that are anti-Islamic are a good source of information. What a sad individual. If you disagree with Islam why continue to dialogue (I mean, argue) here?

 I had to read that long article posted by Buddyman (it was not his own writing). Whatever was written, It was not true. I don't want to humilate BM. But the info given by BM was all false. So what was the use of all that???

BM says if Muslims do not believe that Jesus is god that is blasphemy in his eyes:  The mere fact that you guys deny Jesus the Christ as God is blasphemy in my eyes.

But BM does not know that the Jews were stoning Jesus for calling himself God considering it blasphemy. Jews consider Jesus godhead as blasphemy. BM considers that Muslims not believing Jesus as God is blasphemy. i.e. totally opposite to the real things.

BM had also written that paul met Jesus. that is utterly wrong. A sort of vision while on the road is no meeting. There is no proof or support for that. Paul was the utter enemy of Jesus. How could he become a fast friend in a flash?? Only the christians will believe that.

But then Paul should try to do what Jesus was trying to do. No. Paul did quite the opposite of all the Jesus teachings, making Jesus a cursed person, making him son of God, inventing Trinity, doing away with the entire law of Moses as a curse. The charge sheet agianst paul is not a small one.

buddyman wrote: By the way, I'd also like to mention to you people that I in no way try to insult anybody. I grew up with a Muslim man. He was from Iraq. He was a wonderful person. I loved him like a Father figure. He was always very respectful, kind and generous. This does not mean, when I post something that you have to TAKE it as an insult. The mere fact that you guys deny Jesus the Christ as God is blasphemy in my eyes. I still let you have your opinion, just as God lets us have our opinion. I believe in a loving God. A God that wants us to come to him willfully, not forcefully.

Did any of you read this post? Not spamming!!..LOL!

islamispeace wrote: Buddyman, I missed your little piece about the battles the Muslims fought.  It seems you indeed have a penchant for cutting and pasting.  The other members of this forum were right on.  I will comment on this as soon as I return from my evening class.  I will show you, inshaAllah, why cutting and pasting is a bad idea, especially if you want to discuss religion.  Until then, I suggest you put your own advice to work.  You advise Muslims to read the Bible.  Perhaps you should read the Quran and Hadiths and familiarize yourself with the true history, not the history as your ministers and fellow missionaries see it.  What is funny is that the little piece you posted says it loud and clear that it was the Meccans who initiated hostilities against the Muslims, who then took up their God-given right to defend themselves.  I am sure you find no fault in the Israelites fighting against their enemies in the Bible, but through your hypocritical mindset, you find fault with the Muslims defending themselves.  What a shame.  Anyway, I wrote more than I intended and now I have to go for a few hours.  I will return later and comment on your attempts to rewrite history, inshaAllah.

Honestly islamispeace, I don't believe in the Quran. The Torah and New Testament were written before the Quran. If you want to proove anything to me, you will need to use the Bible.

Buddyman you are a sad individual and honestly you ar not even worth the dialogue. The comment you stated above is clear: "I don't believe in the Quran"

With that being said, how can we have a discussion with you about the Qur'an if you choose to not believe in it?

Another example of proof that you are not here to converse is this:

If Mohammed is a true prophet of God Almighty may I drop dead.

That has to be the st**idest thing I've ever heard. Let me get this straight, if Muhamma dis a true prophet (which he is) you would rather die then read the teachings of a true prophet whose message is the same as the Jesus you supposedly follow? Man, you are a mixed up Christian. I'm not even upset, angry or whatever my thing is Muslims cannot have a conversation with an individual who has a pre-conceived notion about our religion already.

Buddyman you have your mind made up. You have proven to not have an open mind the case is closed we have exposed you to be someone who is here to argue. Just move on to the next Muslim forum. I honestly don't think you could handle brothers like Andalus, and BMZ and I most certainly don't think you could handle me in a philosophical discussion. andalus presented clear refutations to you and you dodge him. So this let's me know when you meet someone who is perhaps more knowledgable than you, you run.

As far as false prophets are concerned if the position of the Christian is Biblical and if one of the characteristics of a false prophet is to lead others away from God then surely Muhammad is not one of them. Muhammad's God as it is expressed throughout the Holy qur'an is the God of Abraham. With that alone we can concur that the spirituality of the Muslim (concerning monotheism) is the same as the Jew and the Christian. Muhammad never said don't believe in the God of Jesus because Muhammad is a slave to the God of Jesus and Moses, and Noah and Adam etc.

 Buddyman says : Muhammad was a murderer. I challenge Bm to show me that from the bible. He should not look to the left or right now. He should show it from his beloved book bible only.

 BM says: If Muhammad is a true prophet of God then I would rather die . That is also a very bad statement. He should say that If Muhammad is a true prophet of God then may Allah guide me to the right path. What use it will be to die denying a true prophet of God !!!.

BM says: He would rather believe the Bible Ot and NT because they are before the Quran. That is another fallacious idea. Why he wants to read an older edition of a book. All the books are from God, the bible Ot and  the bible NT and Quran and there were quite a few more too. He wants to read only the old edition and not the latest edition. O.K. Very well. Then he should only read the bible OT and should not go near the bible NT.

 Why should BM try to believe in the bible NT?? He should not do that. The older the better. Old is gold. Also BM can look for some manuscript of the books / notes of Abraham. They will be even better for him.

 We are giving all types of true and correct arguments to BM in good faith but it is clear that he has some odd agenda. BM is asking us to do this and to do that instead of that/this. Bm abused our prophet too but we kept quiet.

There is no hurry. If BM wants to learn he will be able to do it himself slowly. First he needs to have a clear mindset and he should allow to others what he wants for himself.

minuteman wrote: BM says: If Muhammad is a true prophet of God then I would rather die . That is also a very bad statement. He should say that If Muhammad is a true prophet of God then may Allah guide me to the right path. What use it will be to die denying a true prophet of God !!!.

Hi

I think you mean from BM to Buddyman. BM is another person who writes here frequently.

Thanks

 Of course by BM I mean Buddyman. I do not know of another BM here unless he be BMZ. Thanks for the news. I will be careful. I will address Buddyman only as BM.

Sorry Doo=bop, I had noticed your question but forgot to reply. Paarsurrey may also reply on his own.

John the Baptist was true prophet of God. He had come to clear the way for Jesus. He had come in the spirit of Elias.

Because he was killed does not mean that he was a fasle prophet of God. No. He was not killed by the Jews. Remember the words of Jesus posted by Paarsurrey that accused the Jews of killing the prophets of God was upto Zakariyya a.s. Not the son of Zakariyyah. JTBaptist was killed by the Herod.

Also it was a sudden thing. John did not know what was coming so he did not have any time to pray to God about it. It was not like Jesus who had time to pray and beseech the God to avert the dirty cup from him.

actually I didn't say if Mohammed is a true prophet I would rather die. I said if Mohammed is a true prophet may I drop dead....

I'm still here...LOL!

PS Mohammed in not in the Bible. To islamispeace, I asked that you proove things from the Bible because the Bible (OT & NT) were written WAY before the Quran. And no I don't believe in the Quran because it denys Jesus as God almighty. The fac of the matter is you guys can't proove anything to me from the Bible, this is why you're getting so upset. Which to me is very sad.

I don't give you this information for my benefit. I already know all of this. I give it to you so that you may not becieved. I believe Jesus is coming VERY soon. Much sooner than anyone believes. I give this worls a maximum of 25 years..LOL! This is being nice. I really think we have a maximum of 10 years, but that's just my opinion.

God Bless you and I pray that the Holy Spirit guide you to the truth. Amen.

Doo-bop wrote: paarsurrey - can you please answer my point about John the Baptist?  Was he a false prophet too, because he was killed?

Do you read my posts?

Well the minute dispute whether Muslims accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a constant one that has been going on for many decades. Buddyman the reason I say you are not worthy to discuss is because regardless whether we put up a good arguement, the fact of the matter is you are going to retain your belief. I rather discuss individuals who are open to the possibility that they may not be right. I like discussing with individuals who are stern in their beliefs but because you(buddyman) came with the wrong approach I'm just simply turned off in having a dialogue with you.

If you came with sincerity and with some seeking of knowledge of a rleigious outside yours then I would be more open to accept you but frankly coming to a Muslim forum and saying Muhammad is a murderer is not the right approach and in fact it is the wrong approach. I think if it were Jesus he would say something like "I sincerely disagree with Islam for reasons (A) and (B) but I would like to discuss my disagreement with any Muslim in hoping to share my thoughts"

I know that is a little extensive but the point is your negative approach is what makes others defensive. I really don't get defensive because as others say, I'm very (and most times) over confident and I know that if I sat down and had a dialogue with you philosophically of course I don't think you would be a formidable opponent.

Yes you may have a good relationship with brother Andalus but he is more patient than me and frankly I just didn't like your approach. I don't think your approach is even Christian like. If I wanted to turn to Jesus I don't think I would come to you for online guidence obviously but if you are a true Christian your behavior should reflect Christ's teachings. So simply coming to a Muslim site and saying "Muhammad is a murderer" or "Muhammad is a false prophet because he is not in the Bible" is not a logical approach. You have to defend your position. Frankly, I think in order to be a good debator especially for your religion you should take classes on how to defend your position. You really cannot defend your position with your own words except pull out a bible and comment word for word.

I don't even think you a even licensed as a theologian, priest or anyone with specific background in Biblical interpretation. I find most christians to be wrong not because of their Christian beliefs but because they don't know the original languages that the teachings come from, Aramaic, Greek and Hebrew. Primarily the latter. I find that Christians only pick specific Greek/Hebrew words that relate to their beliefs but are not proficient in the ancient languages themselves. I really think buddyman you need to study your faith more. I'm a Muslim and I can read some Greek and Hebrew and some Arabic. I can recite the Sh'ma (which according to your Bible and Judaic thought is God's greatest commandment) and other passages in their original language. I really think you should change your approach that's all.

"I don't give you this information for my benefit. I already know all of this. I give it to you so that you may not becieved."

You are the one who has been deceived buddy.  I already showed you that.

Israfil wrote: Well the minute dispute whether Muslims accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a constant one that has been going on for many decades. Buddyman the reason I say you are not worthy to discuss is because regardless whether we put up a good arguement, the fact of the matter is you are going to retain your belief. I rather discuss individuals who are open to the possibility that they may not be right. I like discussing with individuals who are stern in their beliefs but because you(buddyman) came with the wrong approach I'm just simply turned off in having a dialogue with you. If you came with sincerity and with some seeking of knowledge of a rleigious outside yours then I would be more open to accept you but frankly coming to a Muslim forum and saying Muhammad is a murderer is not the right approach and in fact it is the wrong approach. I think if it were Jesus he would say something like "I sincerely disagree with Islam for reasons (A) and (B) but I would like to discuss my disagreement with any Muslim in hoping to share my thoughts" I know that is a little extensive but the point is your negative approach is what makes others defensive. I really don't get defensive because as others say, I'm very (and most times) over confident and I know that if I sat down and had a dialogue with you philosophically of course I don't think you would be a formidable opponent. Yes you may have a good relationship with brother Andalus but he is more patient than me and frankly I just didn't like your approach. I don't think your approach is even Christian like. If I wanted to turn to Jesus I don't think I would come to you for online guidence obviously but if you are a true Christian your behavior should reflect Christ's teachings. So simply coming to a Muslim site and saying "Muhammad is a murderer" or "Muhammad is a false prophet because he is not in the Bible" is not a logical approach. You have to defend your position. Frankly, I think in order to be a good debator especially for your religion you should take classes on how to defend your position. You really cannot defend your position with your own words except pull out a bible and comment word for word. I don't even think you a even licensed as a theologian, priest or anyone with specific background in Biblical interpretation. I find most christians to be wrong not because of their Christian beliefs but because they don't know the original languages that the teachings come from, Aramaic, Greek and Hebrew. Primarily the latter. I find that Christians only pick specific Greek/Hebrew words that relate to their beliefs but are not proficient in the ancient languages themselves. I really think buddyman you need to study your faith more. I'm a Muslim and I can read some Greek and Hebrew and some Arabic. I can recite the Sh'ma (which according to your Bible and Judaic thought is God's greatest commandment) and other passages in their original language. I really think you should change your approach that's all.

Israfil,

I disagree with you and here is why:

After his migration to Medina, Muhammad's attitude towards Christians and Jews changed. Norman Stillman states:

During this fateful time, fraught with tension after the Hidjra [migration to Medina], when Muhammad encountered contradiction, ridicule and rejection from the Jewish scholars in Medina, he came to adopt a radically more negative view of the people of the Book who had received earlier scriptures. This attitude was already evolving in the third Meccan period as the Prophet became more aware of the antipathy between Jews and Christians and the disagreements and strife amongst members of the same religion. The Qur'an at this time claims that it will "relate [correctly] to the Children of Israel most of that about which they differ" ( XXVII, 76).

Jewish opposition "may well have been for political as well as religious reasons".[64]On religious grounds, the Jews were skeptical of the possibility of a non-Jewish prophet,[65] and also had concerns about possible incompatibilities between the Qur'an and their own scriptures.[65][66] The Qur'an's response regarding the possibility of a non-Jew being a prophet was that Abraham was not a Jew. The Qur'an also claimed that it was "restoring the pure monotheism of Abraham which had been corrupted in various, clearly specified, ways by Jews and Christians".[65] According to Peters, "The Jews also began secretly to connive with Muhammad's enemies in Mecca to overthrow him."[67]

After each major battle with the Medinans, Muhammad accused one of the Jewish tribes of treachery (see Surah 2:100) and attacked it. After Badr and Uhud, the Banu Qaynuqa and Banu Nadir, respectively, were expelled "with their families and possessions" from Medina. After the Battle of the Trench in 627, the Muslims accused the Jews of Banu Qurayza of conspiring with the Meccans, then exterminated the male members of the Banu Qurayza. The females and children were sold as slaves. [68]

Two types of explanations are given for Muhammad's treatment of the Jews of Medina: Theological and Political. The theological explanation given by some Arab historians and biographers is that:"the punishment of the Medina Jews, who were invited to convert and refused, perfectly exemplify the Quran's tales of what happened to those who rejected the prophets of old." Others offered a political explanation.[69] F.E. Peters, a western scholar of Islam, states that Muhammad's treatment of Jews of Medina was essentially political being prompted by what Muhammad read as treasonous and not some transgression of the law of God.[67] Peters adds that Muhammad was possibly emboldened by his military successes and also wanted to push his advantage. Economical motivations according to Peters also existed since the poorness of the Meccan migrants was a source of concern for Muhammad.[70] Peters argues that Muhammad's treatment of the Jews of Medina was "quite extraordinary", "matched by nothing in the Qur'an", and is "quite at odds with Muhammad's treatment of the Jews he encountered outside Medina."[67]

Buddyman you are missing my point....

Regardless what you think of Muhammad it is your attitude specifically I am addressing. If you disagree with our prophet that is fine. but it is your attitude that is noticeable. If you are staunch in your position that is fine but your ways about arguing your points are unnecessary. Simply copying and pasting anti-Islamic websites is not a good debater that is simply plagerizing and using other peoples wrong information as your own. I'm addressing your attitude not your position.

Doo-bop wrote: paarsurrey - can you please answer my point about John the Baptist?  Was he a false prophet too, because he was killed?

Hi

My post was about Muhammad, Jonah, Jesus and Paul. Your question is not related to my post, however , I would give an answer. I am an Ahmadi- a peaceful faith in Islam , we have Quran as the pristine word of GodAllahYHWH and I am to follow Quran unless I am convinced otherwise. Quran does not mention that John was killed. Moreover from the name John or Yahya used by Quran for the same person, this means " he lives or would live ".

NTBible , though an historical religious source, provides contadictory statements and is subject to cross-examination that has not been done due to blind faith of Catholics/Protestants. 

Thanks

Since Jesus left no written Word of GodAllahYHWH revealed on him, or authenticated by him when he last departed from Galilee; hence my Catholic friends believe many creeds created by the Catholic Clergy not originated by Jesus himself in person.

Israfil wrote: Buddyman you are missing my point.... Regardless what you think of Muhammad it is your attitude specifically I am addressing. If you disagree with our prophet that is fine. but it is your attitude that is noticeable. If you are staunch in your position that is fine but your ways about arguing your points are unnecessary. Simply copying and pasting anti-Islamic websites is not a good debater that is simply plagerizing and using other peoples wrong information as your own. I'm addressing your attitude not your position.

Sorry you think the encycholpedia is anti-islamic.

paarsurrey wrote: Doo-bop wrote: paarsurrey - can you please answer my point about John the Baptist?  Was he a false prophet too, because he was killed? Hi My post was about Muhammad, Jonah, Jesus and Paul. Your question is not related to my post, however , I would give an answer. I am an Ahmadi- a peaceful faith in Islam , we have Quran as the pristine word of GodAllahYHWH and I am to follow Quran unless I am convinced otherwise. Quran does not mention that John was killed. Moreover from the name John or Yahya used by Quran for the same person, this means " he lives or would live ". NTBible , though an historical religious source, provides contadictory statements and is subject to cross-examination that has not been done due to blind faith of Catholics/Protestants.  Thanks Since Jesus left no written Word of GodAllahYHWH revealed on him, or authenticated by him when he last departed from Galilee; hence my Catholic friends believe many creeds created by the Catholic Clergy not originated by Jesus himself in person.

Do you know that the Surat tells Muslims to read the Torah & NT?

"Bring the Torah and read it" (Surat 3:93)

The Qur'an states that the Old and New Testament Scriptures were sent down as "guidance and light." (Surat 5:44-46)

"Bring the Torah and read it" (Surat 3:93)

The Qur'an states that the Old and New Testament Scriptures were sent down as "guidance and light." (Surat 5:44-46)"

Al-Bukhari reported that Ibn `Abbas said that the Ayah means they alter and add although none among Allah's creation can remove the Words of Allah from His Books, they alter and distort their apparent meanings. Wahb bin Munabbih said, "The Tawrah and the Injil remain as Allah revealed them, and no letter in them was removed. However, the people misguide others by addition and false interpretation, relying on books that they wrote themselves.  Then, (they say: "This is from Allah,'' but it is not from Allah;) as for Allah's Books, they are still preserved and cannot be changed.'' Ibn Abi Hatim recorded this statement. However, if Wahb meant the books that are currently in the hands of the People of the Book, then we should state that there is no doubt that they altered, distorted, added to and deleted from them. For instance, the Arabic versions of these books contain tremendous error, many additions and deletions and enormous misinterpretation. Those who rendered these translations have incorrect comprehension in most, rather, all of these translations. If Wahb meant the Books of Allah that He has with Him, then indeed, these Books are preserved and were never changed."

buddyman wrote: Do you know that the Surat tells Muslims to read the Torah & NT?"Bring the Torah and read it" (Surat 3:93)The Qur'an states that the Old and New Testament Scriptures were sent down as "guidance and light." (Surat 5:44-46)

Hi

Yes, Quran does say that GodAllahYHWH did sent Word to Moses and Jesus and in its pristine text it did contain guidance for the people for whom it was sent. Now, they don't even have the origianl text in Hebrew or Aramaic the languages in which it was sent and inner evidence in these books also confirms the same. It has got historic value only, unless renovated and or built again from the original text and made aligned with Quran, it cannot be trusted to.

Thanks

The first and primary source on �Jesus did not die on Cross� - rather Jesus was not killed on Cross and later died naturally is the pristine Word of God revealed on the PromisedMessiahImamMahdi 1835-1908.

 That instruction to bring and Read Torah and Injeel may be directed towards the Jews and the christians only. Not to the Muslims. That was to prove some point to the two religions about their misconcieved ideas. That also proved that there was still some element of truth in those books and those books were not entirely corrupted.

buddyman wrote: paarsurrey wrote: Doo-bop wrote: paarsurrey - can you please answer my point about John the Baptist?  Was he a false prophet too, because he was killed? Hi My post was about Muhammad, Jonah, Jesus and Paul. Your question is not related to my post, however , I would give an answer. I am an Ahmadi- a peaceful faith in Islam , we have Quran as the pristine word of GodAllahYHWH and I am to follow Quran unless I am convinced otherwise. Quran does not mention that John was killed. Moreover from the name John or Yahya used by Quran for the same person, this means " he lives or would live ". NTBible , though an historical religious source, provides contadictory statements and is subject to cross-examination that has not been done due to blind faith of Catholics/Protestants.  Thanks Since Jesus left no written Word of GodAllahYHWH revealed on him, or authenticated by him when he last departed from Galilee; hence my Catholic friends believe many creeds created by the Catholic Clergy not originated by Jesus himself in person.   Do you know that the Surat tells Muslims to read the Torah & NT? "Bring the Torah and read it" (Surat 3:93) The Qur'an states that the Old and New Testament Scriptures were sent down as "guidance and light." (Surat 5:44-46)

"reading", and "following" are two different things. I find it humorous that you plead with people to read the bible, but you have no knowledge of the Quran. You just took a verse completely out of context.

Andalus wrote: buddyman wrote: paarsurrey wrote: Doo-bop wrote: paarsurrey - can you please answer my point about John the Baptist?  Was he a false prophet too, because he was killed? Hi My post was about Muhammad, Jonah, Jesus and Paul. Your question is not related to my post, however , I would give an answer. I am an Ahmadi- a peaceful faith in Islam , we have Quran as the pristine word of GodAllahYHWH and I am to follow Quran unless I am convinced otherwise. Quran does not mention that John was killed. Moreover from the name John or Yahya used by Quran for the same person, this means " he lives or would live ". NTBible , though an historical religious source, provides contadictory statements and is subject to cross-examination that has not been done due to blind faith of Catholics/Protestants.  Thanks Since Jesus left no written Word of GodAllahYHWH revealed on him, or authenticated by him when he last departed from Galilee; hence my Catholic friends believe many creeds created by the Catholic Clergy not originated by Jesus himself in person.   Do you know that the Surat tells Muslims to read the Torah & NT? "Bring the Torah and read it" (Surat 3:93) The Qur'an states that the Old and New Testament Scriptures were sent down as "guidance and light." (Surat 5:44-46)   "reading", and "following" are two different things. I find it humorous that you plead with people to read the bible, but you have no knowledge of the Quran. You just took a verse completely out of context.

By all means, post the entire verse.

 Buddyman is not trying to understand:

 Do you know that the Surat tells Muslims to read the Torah & NT?

"Bring the Torah and read it" (Surat 3:93)

 The above instruction in the Quran is tothe Jews and christians at the time of the prophet s.a.w.s. That reading of the Torah is not being told to Muslims.