islamispeace wrote: Uh, could someone explain to me why kissing something is seen as an act of worship?  It is always funny when some vagabond Christian accuses Islam of being "...a left over practice of paganism."  Apparently, this vagabond has not heard that seemingly "Christian" holidays like Christmas are actually pagan holidays which were given Christian undertones.  As for your statement that Muslims claim to be monotheists and yet elevate a meteorite to the level of a god, a similar statement can be made about Christianity, one which makes a lot more sense: Christians claim to be monotheists, yet they elevate a flesh and blood man, who feared his enemies, prayed to God, ate and drank, and went to the bathroom, to the level of a god and worship this god in their churches.  Do Muslims worship the "meteorite" as you called it by praying to it.  Do any Muslim prayers call upon this meteorite for aid?

Listen, if your going to call people names in English, at least do it right.  The word is not vagabond, it's troll.  But the only troll here is you, buddy.  You have a big mouth, don't you - but hide in a burkha, I bet.

Muslims are generally in denial that their form of worship is simply paganism with a smiley face.  Read this and then let's hear your rebuttal:

Unfortunately, Islam is a false cult, and you are destined for an eternity separated from God if you continue in the bloodthirsty religion of * Mohammed.  However, not all Muslims are, for there are some who have found Christ:

Mod Edit

BMZ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLRJWOIJCak -  

JasonChristian it is quite obvious from the spam thread you are here for one purpose which is exposing your beliefs which are against Islam and against Muslims at least admit that much. With that being said as a Muslim let me peacefully and calmly tell you that it is difficult to respond to you in a cordial manner especially if your intent on this forum is not to converse but to argue. But allow me to make the first step in answering your question directly.

As far as the meterotie you are referring to there are several theories regarding the stone itself and its origins. Yes most secular historians (including myself) would conclude that the stone is actually a meteorite. Some would conclude that the stone was once an angel but because if the sins of man transformed into a solid black stone. some believe the stone fell from the sky during the time of Adam and Eve and has the powers to cleanse the sins of worshippers by absorbing their sins into itself.  However the stone was never worshipped by Muslims nor by the Prophet Muhammad himself. according to Crystal links which is a random website I simply googled just for chits and giggles it stated:

"It is remarkable, however, that even though the temple contained 360 idols worshipped before Muhammad's Prophethood, the black stone was never kissed or made an idol of worship. In fact, the Ka'ba was never worshipped by the idolaters prior to Muhammad's Prophethood. The building contained idols of worship but the building itself was never an object of worship." http://www.crystalinks.com/blackstone.html - http://www.crystalinks.com/blackstone.html

If you had the slightest knowledge about Islam you would know that Allah (which, if translated to English means God) does not take on any comprehensible form known to man-this includes rocks, stones, pebbles etc. Allah does not even take the form of a man nor anything like man or anything like D'jinn. Allah has strict rules regarding worship and has commanded Muslims to not prostrate to anything that has been crafted either by him (Allah) or mankind itself. I sincerely hope this helps.

Jasonchristian wrote: If Muslims love their Allah and their prophet so much, why do they engage in rock worship?

Please prove this. If you are unable to back your claims such as the nature of this, then discontinue these outbursts. Follow the guidlines.

Aren't Muslims aware that pre-Islamic worship on the Arabian Penninsula incuded the shamanistic practices of rock worship, rock throwing, etc.

animal worship was also practiced by pagans before the exodus, so you should tell Moses that he is really a pagan (I am using your drivel as an example of how absurd your unproven assertions are)

You claim to be monotheists, yet elevate a meteorite to the level of a "god" and worship it in your Kaa'ba.  It is simply a left over practice of paganism.

Prove we have elevated a meteorite to the level of God? Your ignorance of theology and religion in general and Islam is astounding.

You claim to be a monotheist, yet you elevate a creature who was birthed through a vagina, used the toilet, and ate, and had dirty diapers as a God. Your worship of this man is a fact, not just an assertion. So who is looking more foolish? Your absurd assertion about me which you have failed to prove, or my fact about your theology?

By the way, please discontinue your spamming, your pattern is becomming apparent and you will soon find your account under review for suspension. Follow the guidelines.

Jasonchristian wrote: Muslims are generally in denial that their form of worship is simply paganism with a smiley face.  Read this and then let's hear your rebuttal:

Do not be lazy, debate your own material. If all you have to offer is links to your polemical sites, then save it. This is a discussion forum. If you are unable to debate, then you should focus on why you follow your own faith, as your lack of critical thinking skills dictates that you have no idea as to why you believe a man is a god.

Jasonchristian wrote: Unfortunately, Islam is a false cult, and you are destined for an eternity separated from God if you continue in the bloodthirsty religion of the thief, Mohammed.  However, not all Muslims are, for there are some who have found Christ: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLRJWOIJCak -

If they worship a man, then they are called "idolaters", and they are no longer Muslim. You have made yet another insult to my faith and you have not had the intellectual fortitude to back your claims.

 Also Jason and his kind do not have a sense of direction, a center of worship. Even the Jews had some place of worship. Muslims have the Ka'abah. These christians do not have anything at all. They just gather on Sunday (The day of Sun god) for a short time, sing a few songs and rest for the week.

Asalam Alaykum Jason Christian:

Why all the anger???  You know as a Christian when you contend for the faith it's to be in love and truth. 

"The Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kindly to everyone,...correcting his opponents with gentleness." 2Tim2:25

Why do you say Muslims worship a rock?  I never knew a Muslim to worship anyother than God alone.  Not trying to be rude but have you read anything about the Islamic faith?? Not from those who hate Islam but from a true an Islamic perspective.  Did you come to this site to learn or to cast hateful slurs my brother? 

Trajik

 Yes, why kiss the cross? That cross being an enemy of Jesus  and an instrument to punish Jesus should not be carried or kissed. At least that stone in Ka'abah is not a symbol of anything bad. The cross is definitely a bad sign. Nobody should go near it. Can Jason answer the problem of the cross, being kissed and carried around by the christians. Is it something to loved???

Some enemies of the christians have taught them to love the cross. Sorry for my statement to all christian friends except Jasonch.

Asalam Alaykum rami and minuteman, :)

I hope the day has been well for you. :)  In regards to your question posed to Jason he will undoubtedly say he does not kiss the cross as this is more a Catholic/Orthodox practice. :)  Baptists don't do thiis type of thing.  Take care to all.  Insha'allah you have a wonderful day.

Trajik

Jasonchristian wrote: If Muslims love their Allah and their prophet so much, why do they engage in rock worship?  Aren't Muslims aware that pre-Islamic worship on the Arabian Penninsula incuded the shamanistic practices of rock worship, rock throwing, etc.  You claim to be monotheists, yet elevate a meteorite to the level of a "god" and worship it in your Kaa'ba.  It is simply a left over practice of paganism.

Who told you that Muslims worship a rock?

Muslims worship only the Lord Almighty (the God of Abraham). That is all.

BMZ

rami wrote: Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem Why kiss the cross?

Good question, rami.  Actually, the Christians should hate the cross.

Salaams

BMZ

I'm so ashamed of my muslim brothers & sisters, to go down to insulting.  If someone insults you, do you insult them back?  No.  Remember our Prophet (PBUH) never never made fun of anybody of a differnt relgion.

How do you draw people to your religion if you are only to bite back?  Remember patience & tolerance brother & sisters of Islam!!!  If non-muslims have questions answer them to the best of your ability.  And be it so that they have ill intentions then let them be.  Why should you go down to that level.  Remember this relgion is of respect as well.  We are ALL the slaves of Allah no matter what religion & we're all equal.  If someone throws sticks & stones don't throw it back.  Just be patient & tolerant & God will judge.

I'm so tired of all these insults over the internet from both sides of the fence!!  Is there any result out of it but more hate??  And to be muslim, then more of a reason to be patient & tolerant of others.  We should educate others in a peaceful way.

 Yes saqeen,
 Pardon. I shall be careful in the future. Thank you for the guidance to a good practical way of life.

saqeen wrote: I'm so ashamed of my muslim brothers & sisters, to go down to insulting.  If someone insults you, do you insult them back?  No.  Remember our Prophet (PBUH) never never made fun of anybody of a differnt relgion.

Thank you for your comments and welcome to the forum. Due to the nature of the forum, sometimes people will loose patience. I do think you are a bit harsh as I do not find anything that would constitute "insulting". Furthermore, JasonChristian is not just someone from another faith, but somenone who has shown a pattern of "baiting" and intentional slander without the desire or objective to learn or ask legitimate and reasonable questions. The internet presents with people that attempt to use forums simply to try and cast doubt on the weak minded concerning Islam, and they do so by spamming anti-Islamic trash, these people could have used the time to pause and read legitimate sites one Islam, but they chose to pass these sites due to their convictions and find rhetorical trash as a means to cast slander on this noble faith.

I did not see anyone make fun of his religion, on the contrary, I found him spamming the forum with polemical garbage.

How do you draw people to your religion if you are only to bite back?  Remember patience & tolerance brother & sisters of Islam!!!  If non-muslims have questions answer them to the best of your ability.  And be it so that they have ill intentions then let them be.

There are many who have no intention to want to be drawn, they simply come here to make trouble, and incredibly insulting remarks to prod Muslims into emotionalism, to make jest, and to try and cause doubt on those who have come here to read and learn. I have been an active moderator since my conversion (only about a year here) and have been with some forums that were extremely ruff. Trust me when I tell you, that if you stop and take every character seriuous or try and see every troll that comes through a forum as a potential convert, you will

1) waste a lot of your time

2) give them fuel to cast more insults.

JasonChristian did not ask any "real question", and his choice of material is evident of his "non-serious" agenda.

If you wish to waste your time with every JasonChristian that moves through the forum, then it is your choice, but I have no religous obligation to do so after the person has presented themsleves as dubious.

I think Whisper, Maryah, Sonya, and Duende are our master "troll" sniffers, and Whisper is pretty much right on that the best policy should be to simply ignore them and not qualify their participation.

Why should you go down to that level.  Remember this relgion is of respect as well.  We are ALL the slaves of Allah no matter what religion & we're all equal.  If someone throws sticks & stones don't throw it back.  Just be patient & tolerant & God will judge.

I agree, but this would be too simplistic to use in a discussion forum as a sole "axiom" for behavior. Keep in mind that every forum has there "lurkers", many of whom are people who want to investigate Islam and want to see the answers to many of the trashy arguments hulred at our Nobel Faith throughout the net and the media. If someone like JasonChristian comes in here and puts forth a contribution that might appear to be solid to the unknowing, I will take the time to respond, not to convince the dubious person (that would be a waste), but for those who read in the background. Also, I did not find anyone throwing "sticks and stones"at JasonChristian. I think you are being a bit harsh.

I'm so tired of all these insults over the internet from both sides of the fence!!  Is there any result out of it but more hate??  And to be muslim, then more of a reason to be patient & tolerant of others.  We should educate others in a peaceful way.

peacful ways are credible and should be used, but that does not mean that we cast out reason.

There are times that as Muslims, we can defened ourselves.

Assalam Aleikum  

walaikum salaam,

I encourage what I preach for a reason...not to "convert" everyone but to gain respect...gain respect for ourselves as muslims & our religion.  Maybe it's not so harsh in this post but I have seen ALL over the internet how muslims are trying to "defend" islam but the way it's done is so disgusting & that's why I try encourage not just here but in all forums all over the internet to calm down.

There's a hadith of the Prophet (SAW) when a father asked him to lecture his child about not eating so many sweets (dates or something).  But the Prophet (PBUH) asked the father & son to come back a couple of days later. (I'm sorry I can't remember the exact details)  Why?  Because the Prophet himself liked sweets & so he had to take time to stop bein addicted to sweets.  What's the story here?  U need to practice what u preach...and we preach peace, tolerance, kindness right?

I was so disappointed w/ one muslim sister on the Tyra show.  Although I hate seeing such junk talk shows but this one was on discrimnation against different people in the States & one Arab sister was on the show.  An African American accused of her being a terrorist's sister.  In that moment in time that sister out of genuine anger said "How dare you. Go educate yourself!" Though she did no harm she didn't enable any good.  Because in that one moment of time in front of the public if she had the patience to dissolve her anger & educate....she could have represented & taught a whole number of people(imagine the number of people who were watching this) w/ just a few phrases.  Just a few phrases could have people curious enough not to actually go & convert but to educate themselves about Islam.  Right now we need to focus on educating others not for converting them but making them aware.  Islam is based all on generalizations & stereotypes for the public over here.

Brothers & sisters I apologize for my earlier post because it may be too harsh but I want to inform you that just like presidential candidates & celebrities who are being defined w/ every sneeze, every opinion, we're also being watched 24-7. Our movemtns, our actions are defining us, they represent us. So please whenver you see any brother or sister getting angry, anywhere on the internet to hold on to their horses.  Instead of defense why not be proactive?

salaam

You asked a good question.Why do we kiss a stone which cannot benefit us nor harm us?

It is because our love for the Prophet Muhammad pbuh and following his sunnah:

When 'Umar ibn al Khattab r.a looked back at the Black Stone, he said, "You are a stone and can neither help nor harm. If I had not seen the Messenger of All�h kiss you, I would not have kissed you." Then he kissed it.

 I don't know why you had to say that. Anyhow, I hope you will also not solute the house (Ka'abah) with both hands. Will you?? Then may be you will not go round the house (Ka'abah)?? Will you go for Hajj?? Surely you know that Hajj is necessary if conditions allow.

 The question of kissing the stone (that special stone) arises only when you will go to perform the Hajj or Umrah. My above querries refer to that time when you are there in Makkah. Please inform. Thanks.

We know there is an alternative to kissing the stone. Not everybody can do that. But if there is no rush and you have the opportunity then what will you do???

Sign Reader "cuz" this is simply my opinion. True, the only reason I'd do it is out of tradition especially when going on Hajj. But the fact of the matter is my unity to God does not reside in an object, nor in tradition but my spiritual practices and my behavior.

I didn't "diss" anything I merely made a statement.

Frankly Sign Reader I don't really care what your opinion is of me, really. I've been called a kaifr many times and seriously they are all opinions. What gets me upset is people who lack common sense and civility and yes if you haven't guessed you are one of those individuals who lack the former.

Israfil wrote: I surely wouldn't kiss the stone.

Personally i would kiss the stone from Heaven just like the appointed one(Mustafa pbuh/Muhammad pbuh)did it too.But you should know this is sunnah:you can kiss it or leave it.I believe Allah swt will not ask you why you didnt kiss the stone,faith and salaah is more important.

can we get away from israfil and him not kissing the stone now

I wouldn't myself be kissing it for health reason  

Angel wrote: Unless in you are in the first row, I can't see how you can kiss the stone anyway

My family and I waited for about 6 hours for the crowd to thin. At around 3.00 am, we got the chance to be in the first line and managed to kiss the stone.

BMZ

BMZ wrote: Angel wrote: Unless in you are in the first row, I can't see how you can kiss the stone anyway My family and I waited for about 6 hours for the crowd to thin. At around 3.00 am, we got the chance to be in the first line and managed to kiss the stone. BMZ

guess you could do that to.  anyway i'm happy for you.

Angel wrote: can we get away from israfil and him not kissing the stone now I wouldn't myself be kissing it for health reason

Angel wrote: Unless in you are in the first row, I can't see how you can kiss the stone anyway

In the past, individuals and tribes made contracts with the chiefs of other tribes. This was done to assure their maintenance and survival in the desert. The contract was known as an allegiance. How was it actualized? The individual involved had to extend his right hand to shake and hold the right hand of the other in order that he becomes his ally. Automatically, it was understood that his previous allegiances were cancelled. 

At the Black Stone, the moment of selection, you must choose your path, goal, and future. When joining the people, you must shake hands with Allah who is extending His right hand - therefore taking the oath to become Allah's confederate. You will be free from all previous allegiances; no longer will you be an ally of the powers, the hypocrites, the tribal chiefs, the rulers on this earth, the aristocrats of Quraish, the landlords, nor money. You are free! Quran, 48:10 

The hand of Allah is over their hands.  

Touch Allah's hand. He is superior to all who have TIED your hands in previous allegiances! Upon acquiring the status of being free (after shaking Allah's hand and re-asserting your "original promise"' to Him), it is your duty to join the people. Do not stop, continue on. You must find and select your "orbit". Enter the system and move with the others. As you circumambulate and move closer to Kaaba, you feel like a small stream merging into a big river. Carried by a wave, not by your feet, you are detached from the ground. Suddenly, you find yourself floating and carried on by this flood. As you approach the middle, the pressure of the crowd squeezes you so hard that you are endowed with a new life. You are now a part of the people; you are now a man alive and eternal! You move not "by yourself" but "with others". You join them not "diplomatically" but "with love". 

See the Allah of Ibrahim. By relating you to Himself, Allah relates you to others. In such a deep, delicate and beautiful way he relates you to the people by the attracting forces of His love. Although you are here to see Allah, you find yourself so busy with the people. Allah has invited you from far distances to come to His house for a private visit, but now He tells you to join the people. You are not to enter His house, nor to stop and stare at the house. You must continue in your circumambulation, remaining shoulder to shoulder with the people. Kaaba is only the center of the orbit; there fore, if you stop, move your position or turn your head, you are "out" of the orbit! Once again, do not stop and do not go to the right or to the left. Qibla is in front of you; look ahead and continue going ahead. 

Attracted by the forces of the world's sun (Kaaba), you are on your orbit. You have become a part of this universal system. Circumambulating (Tawaf) around Allah, you will soon forget yourself. What prevails is love and attraction; you are only one of the many people who are "attracted"! 

Going around and around, you see no one but "Him". You are a "nothing who feels His existence" and simultaneously an "existence who feels nothing". As you circumambulate, you are like a particle in this circular movement which is an orbit, a motion, a Tawaf and a Hajj! Nevertheless, all of this is symbolic of Allah. Your position is that of "submission" 

By becoming departed from yourself, you have assumed a new form as a "particle" that is gradually melting and disappearing. At its peak love is absolute; you are a devotee in love! If love had to be described in terms of motion, what type of movement would it be? Very simply, it is best expressed by the motions of a butterfly! In summary, it may be said that Kaaba is the center of love while you are the compass rotating around it! 

Let me dissect this:

This is where you enter the universe's system. You join the other people and assimilate among them as a drop entering the ocean. This is the way to survival, the way to find your "orbit"! If you do not join the people, you will not be able to pursue the orbit nor approach Almighty Allah. Firstly, with your right hand you must touch or point to the BLACK STONE. Then, immediately, you must be assimilated among the people. What does this stone symbolize? It symbolizes a hand - a right hand! And - whose right hand? The right hand of Allah! 

As far as the circumbulation around the Kaa'ba is concerned, one can make inferences to what this symbolizes. As you have mentioned above "This is the way to survival, the way to find your "orbit!" However, orbiting the Kaa'ba and calling its ritual practice of circumbulation something like that of orbiting the universe is a subjective perspective which does not (and should not) be applied to all believers of Islam. I for one do not consider circling the Kaaba something comparable to orbiting the universe. As far as the stone is concerned it is even more inaccurate to compare something to Allah....Remember Allah is above anything ascribed to him. To say "the stone represents the right hand of Allah" is creating a physical manifestation that is comprehensible and intelligible.

The stone DOES NOT represent Allah's "right hand" because Allah has no right hand nor a left. Incorporeal beings do not possess anything physically symbolic nor anything physical comprehensible that could be represented as something in this universe.

Touch Allah's hand. He is superior to all who have TIED your hands in previous allegiances! Upon acquiring the status of being free (after shaking Allah's hand and re-asserting your "original promise"' to Him), it is your duty to join the people. Do not stop, continue on. You must find and select your "orbit". Enter the system and move with the others. As you circumambulate and move closer to Kaaba, you feel like a small stream merging into a big river. Carried by a wave, not by your feet, you are detached from the ground. Suddenly, you find yourself floating and carried on by this flood. As you approach the middle, the pressure of the crowd squeezes you so hard that you are endowed with a new life. You are now a part of the people; you are now a man alive and eternal! You move not "by yourself" but "with others". You join them not "diplomatically" but "with love". 

Again, using hylomorphic examples in relation to Allah is fallacious and misleading especially if our philosophy is that God is above all creation. Even if we ar epoetically attributing beauty in its highest regard it is still inaccurate.

By becoming departed from yourself, you have assumed a new form as a "particle" that is gradually melting and disappearing. At its peak love is absolute; you are a devotee in love! If love had to be described in terms of motion, what type of movement would it be? Very simply, it is best expressed by the motions of a butterfly! In summary, it may be said that Kaaba is the center of love while you are the compass rotating around it! 

This is merely poetry and holds no solid foundation to sustain the Muslim believer. The perspective of this individual is this individual's perspective but while making such an opinion the author risk losing him/herself to illogical symbolism.

Glory be to Allah the Creator of the universe!

It is he who is the sustainer of all life forms miniscule and great.

It is he who is the sustainer of the planets and their orbital systems.

Allah is the Creator of the Universe and that which is above and below and in between.

Ameen.

 I feel that Israfil can do what he likes best. Unless he is fully satisfied, he need not kiss the stone. Many cannot even approach that place. So they just raise their (both) hands from the distance and continue their next circle (circuit). After all, a person does not become a non Muslim by not kissing the black stone.

 Some who can be very near to the stone, they just touch the stone with a hand and then kiss the hand only. They feel satisfied that they have done the necessary ritual. I feel that it is the obedience which is more importance and the alignment with the prophet s.a.w.s. that will bring more pleasure and peace of mind to every one. Distancing, questioning and departing from the way of the prophet s.a.w.s. will not be a good end result.

As far as I'm concerned there really is no law that states NOT kissing the stone is haram and is a sin. I understand that it is ritual to kiss the stone and that is perfectly fine I just choose not to when I go on Hajj. I prefer to do the other rituals such as the "stoning of Satan" and the drinking at the well of Zamzam. Just because the prophet performed this does this mean that it is exactly law to do so? For instance if the prophet ate dates is it law to do so?

I choose not to kiss the stone because I do not wish to perform any affection to a creation of space, rather, I want to devote myself to the Creator of the universe. I believe as a Muslim what is more essential is the fact that one goes to Hajj and unifies with other Muslims in harmony.

In my personal belief through studying Islam there are certain things that are law in respect to Sunnah and things that are not law although from Sunnah. I believe these are one of those optional things. Like I said spirituality is subjective and relative from person to person. One may find their spiritual euphoria just by getting off the plane in Mecca the other may find it by kissing the stone. I don't think you can post an article to prove you can find God and being in this spiritual dimension with God by kissing the stone.

I just have a big problem with authors especially some Muslims using physical objects to represent God.

 Yes, Sunnah is also of two types. It is the practice of the holy prophet. The things that he did himself. there are two types. One is obligatory. Th other is optional.

1. Obligatory is that Sunnah which the prophet s.a.w.s. did and told the Muslims to do it.

2. The optional or non-obligatory Sunnah is that which the prophet did himself but did not tell any one to do it.

Israfil is right about the eating of the dates. I may add about riding a camel too. It may be a Sunnah to ride a camel but it is not obligatory. And thanks to Allah, had it been obligatory, how could we have managed it in this age !!!

Sign*Reader wrote: Angel wrote: can we get away from israfil and him not kissing the stone now I wouldn't myself be kissing it for health reason   You are injecting yourself into an impossible scenario being a non believer. When you know being a non believer you are not permitted within the precincts of the sanctuary; WHy should you comment or complain beside being facetious? Angel wrote: Unless in you are in the first row, I can't see how you can kiss the stone anyway I thought you were smarter than that! The first row doesn't guarantee that. You don't have the foggiest idea how things work around there!  It takes an effort and patience to get to the first row and then some. Some get to the Hajarulaswad some don't but at least they were part of the effort and that is what counts. But a person gets in front of the Blackstone and says I am not going to kiss or touch it is a greatest arrogant, aimless fool who wasted time, effort and treasure to earn Allah's displeasure.  Israfil has not been there and you can't be there, so where does that leave you, him or others? in the peanut gallery?

Do you think you can lighten up a bit, both israfil and i are not being despectful. It's just a comment, a personal opinion, there is nothing wrong.

I know about hajj okay! I read, i watch documentaries by muslims who have documented, the news, seen a lot of pictures. I know how packed it gets.

But a person gets in front of the Blackstone and says I am not going to kiss or touch it is a greatest arrogant, aimless fool who wasted time, effort and treasure to earn Allah's displeasure.

that is your personal opinion, and an error to say it will displease Allah! and you cannot speak for all, i'm sure some get the spirituality and the tresure that out of it if they choose not to kiss the stone.