To aka2X2 and Rami...cont
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Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Islam for non-Muslims
Forum Description: Non-Muslims can ask questions about Islam, discussion for the purpose of learning.
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Topic: To aka2X2 and Rami...cont
Posted By: E.S.
Subject: To aka2X2 and Rami...cont
Date Posted: 17 July 2007 at 10:44pm
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I started a new thread worried it might push the first one too down where
it'll be forgotten.. I apologize beforehand for not responding earlier due to my busy schedule. First off I would like to mention and make it known that I am simply an amateur at debates concerning religious topics. About two years and going yet still I feel there's always more for improvement better to humble myself. That doesnt make me completely ignorant persay and I will do my best at research on my end. Now as to why I bring these questions and comments up are simply out of curiosity. I started reading up on Islam, as I'm sure most non Muslims have, after 9/11. Questions began to pop up in my head and they were brought up to muslim friends of mine. Some were explained and some just brought up more confusion then beforehand. Being curious by nature the questions that I had didnt make me ponder it's the reaction that I received by people that basically forced an end to other questions or fact findings to a stand still. Now it's one thing to persist asking one who is not knowledgeable that would annoy anyone but these were brought to people who claimed to be very well instructed in Islam and yet they completly changed one actually became furious with rage and stormed out once. That is the nature of my debate. It should be constructive and based out of complete respect. I might seem blunt at times to some but on my end its purely respectfull and educational and also healthy for both sides. For the non-Muslims and the Muslims who have had the same questions as I to join in without fear or remorse. I do not wish to show any blemishes on anyone but I will ask and respond because it is my right to do so and I believe everyone elses only because we share this world and we share all of humanities good and evil that along gives anyone the right to question and object. Looking forward to future thought provoking discussions. |
Replies:
Posted By: aka2x2
Date Posted: 19 July 2007 at 11:45am
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ES Interesting that I should read your posting today. Yesterday afternoon NPR had a segment about younger people having become more faithful than their parents. They also explored the generational friction this situation creates. Halfway through the program they talked about how Islam is spreading very rapidly among Latin American Catholics. Obviously this is of great concern to the So, by all means ask away. You may not like the answers you get. You may even feel you have exposed some hitherto unknown deficiency in Islam. But, you will not get vague answers from Islam. Muslims are another matter� ------------- Respectfully  aka2x2
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Posted By: E.S.
Date Posted: 19 July 2007 at 11:35pm
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I must say this. The Vatican, as much as you would like to think, do not
look at numbers or how many attend. Of course the lack of faith among old Catholics is high but that is not the failure of Church teachings. It's a world becoming more corrupted. What was holy and virtuous is laughed upon. That goes for all religions. Just because you were born into a certain religion doesnt mean you should live then end of your days as one. If its to your liking good. If it's not good. The Pope along with many Church leaders has reiterated that we want QUALITY people among our faithfull. Those who truly understand and adhere to the dogma. QUANTITY is not our concern. I wouldnt mind loosing 500 million Catholics as long as the ones we have are pure in there good deeds and truly live a fruitfull and beautifull life enjoying what God gave them on Earth with complete respect, values and love thought to us by Christ. Tell me something aka2x2 do you truly believe numbers are worth more then true faithfulls? I can call myself a Boston Celtics fan. But if I never watch the games or even know half the players on the team, would I truly be one or just because I was born into a family who follow them, I'm abliged to blindly follow. Christianity is also growing in numbers. Especially in Africa in Muslim dominated countries, China, India.... Those have never been a topic for me to discuss because truly I do not care for numbers I care about the quality of people that follow. If that young man found something in Islam that would make him into a better human then I wish him all the best life can give him and I truly mean this with all my heart. But wouldnt it be interesting if the Bible and other Christian teaching material would be handed out in Muslim dominated countries without the fear of repression and hate.... |
Posted By: E.S.
Date Posted: 19 July 2007 at 11:59pm
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Aka2x2,
With all due respect I refuse to speak about the growth of Islam. Not out of anger at all just the fact that it's purely a one sided debate. A western non muslim can walk into any major book shop and find a translation of the Qu'ran yet you wont find the same concerning a Bible in a majority Muslim country in a bookstore owned by a Muslim. And if by chance you do one must hide the Bible and read it in a complete state of fear of any reprecussions. Violence physically or verbally. So we can never know the true potential growth of Christiany in many parts of the world. Whatever information given to Muslims about Christians is the fact that they want our oil and believe in three gods. I hope my point was well taken. |
Posted By: peacemaker
Date Posted: 20 July 2007 at 4:22am
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Hi E.S., It is important that we comply guidelines: http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4589&PN=1 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4589& ;PN=1 http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7684&PN=1 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7684& ;PN=1 Peace
------------- Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny? Qur'an 55:13 |
E.S. wrote:Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 20 July 2007 at 5:57am
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Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem The Vatican, as much as you would like to think, do not look at numbers or how many attend. if that was ever true they would still be ex-communicating people. ------------- Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness. |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 21 July 2007 at 12:59am
I am sorry if you are a RC, but the facts are facts  PLease don't worry about the world, rather take care the RC priests every thing will be ok. http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-abuse17jul17,0,6448971.story?coll=la-home-center - $600,000,000 on RC Priests Child Molesters
Some quality RC dogma : http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-kennedy16jul16,0,4502549.story?coll=la-opinion-rightrail - RC Church's loose canon
Wow-- lamentation after centuries of colonialism now you don't have a prayer in the middle of the Iraqi & Afghani crusade? ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: E.S.
Date Posted: 21 July 2007 at 2:15am
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What an educated and thoughtfull response by sign reader. Don't feel bad
for me cause I'm Catholic I feel bad for you cause your not. We can copy and paste here all we like with all the embarassing stories of the leaders of both our faiths so just to hit you back with one to show you that your Imam's also have a taste for young boys heres a link for ya http://scoop.agonist.org/story/2005/6/26/173123/143 At least our guys are being punished yet your victims are being threatened by Al Qaeda connected thugs. The Crusades, the wars in the middle east are not a doctorine of the Church. You would have known that if you actual read the Bible. But since you fear the Book itself you have no right to comment on anything for that matter. You can keep your one sided attacks but they wont be taken to heart. What do you call the invasian of Spain, Portugal, Palestine, Syria, Lebanon, Anatolia, Armenia, The Caucasus, Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia, Romania, Iran, Sicilly, Egypt, Lybia, and Iraq between 600's AD up to WW1? The differences between our wars and yours are this: We use the name of religion to convert ethnic people without a real base of dogmatic law that ok's it. The end of it all is purely economical or political. On the other hand your side is being blessed and completly supported by the religious authorities and backed up by the Quran and the Hadiths. |
Posted By: E.S.
Date Posted: 21 July 2007 at 2:18am
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To answer Rami
The Church does excommunicate people. Just recently Mexican law makers were excommunicated for passing a law that would allow abortions in Mexico City. The Church doesnt have an army of spies watching each abortion clinic or motel rooms in search of adultery to catch people in the act and swarm the area like a swat team. |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 22 July 2007 at 2:27am
Your guys haven't been punished they have been transfered within the Archdiocese, the Cardinal is not handing over all the docs but paying to settle law suites. The example from the blog on a third world western occupied country, previously a colony doesn't jive. The west is paying & pushing Pakistan's dictator toward secularism and more corruption so anything is possible. I would say if these Imams can be shot I will pay for the bullet and the cleanup. BTW the blog IS AGONISING about more dirt on the Republican pedophiles than others!
Go read the history of old crusade they were instigated by the POPE. In current one in Iraq is evangelical rhetoric driven POTUS! I have read the bible and it happens to be anti Arab writing by racist Paul.
YOU HAVEN'T REVEALED YOUR LOCATION But I applaud your confession on the economic and political exploitation of the Muslim occupied territories.
It will just great if this can be done, save as many soul as possible. ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 22 July 2007 at 11:35am
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In this thread E.S. wanted to ask some honest questions. But there is a litigation too soon. Let us have the questions please. But E.S. you have come out openly against Islam very quickly. That was bad and not in accordance with your first post of honest inquiry. You have an inquisitive nature. So let us have it. What has been troubling you lately?? Thanks. ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: E.S.
Date Posted: 22 July 2007 at 11:55pm
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My plan was not to come out and attack Islam in any sense. That is want I
stated and that is my goal till I decide to end my sessions here yet it wont be any time soon because I do find this fruitfull for myself and I hope for you and others. If you felt any "attack" caused on my end that was simply to counter Sign Reader's attack on my Catholic faith and the fact that he doesn't mind the practice of forcefull conversions in his latest of statements. I did not hear anybody stand against his comments. Also making outrageous claims that St. Paul is an Arab hater isn't quite to my liking especially when claims like this are not followed by sources. I'll be the better man and move on and deal with more important issues. The question I brought up that I needed an answer for was the following: Why is it a major task to get your hands on a Bible in Muslim dominated countries yet it's quite readly available to purchase Mein Kampf in practically any book shop? I like it to be stated here that I do not support any wars any where including Iraq and Afghanistan. These are not "Crusades" as many Muslims believe it to be but purely based on exploiting these countries for natural resources and political counter balance acts against local powers such as Iran and even Russia. These are not Christian acts because it goes against any Christian teaching. I hope there are some folks here who have read the Bible, even if there main purpose of reading it was to "attack" or "question" that's fine. But I'm sure those who have read it can justly and truthfully say they have found no such violent teachings. We can automatically throw that out the window firstly because it has no basis, and second because it doesnt belong on this thread. I wouldnt mind discuss it it just confuses the readers here on what was the main aim of the thread and where it ends. All these should be met one at a time. Minuteman thanks for setting us on the right track. |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 23 July 2007 at 1:35am
Ok my friend read the following quote from New Testamnet's Galatians 23One, the child of the slave, was born according to the flesh; the other, the child of the free woman, was born through the promise. 24Now this is an allegory: these women are two covenants. One woman, in fact, is Hagar, from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery. 25Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia javascript%20void0;" onmouseover="return overlib'Other ancient authorities read <em target=" _blank=" - and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the other woman corresponds to the Jerusalem above; she is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written, �Rejoice, you childless one, you who bear no children, burst into song and shout, you who endure no birth pangs; for the children of the desolate woman are more numerous than the children of the one who is married.� 28Now you, javascript%20void0;" onmouseover="return overlib'Other ancient authorities read <em target=" _blank=" - * my friends, javascript%20void0;" onmouseover="return overlib'Gk<span class=thinspace target=" _blank=" - are children of the promise, like Isaac. 29But just as at that time the child who was born according to the flesh persecuted the child who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30But what does the scripture say? �Drive out the slave and her child; for the child of the slave will not share the inheritance with the child of the free woman.� 31So then, friends, javascript%20void0;" onmouseover="return overlib'Gk<span class=thinspace target=" _blank=" - * we are children, not of the slave but of the free woman. Could you explain the above statements by Paul? I would like to answer your other questions but I need to know what country are you in for the proper perspective. Please don't put words in my mouth--- where did say that I suggested a forceful conversions? Islam is not a religion which ever preaches forced conversions, that is Christian/ Catholic heritage, remember the Spanish inquisition! ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: hat2010
Date Posted: 23 July 2007 at 3:50am
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"Why is it a major task to get your hands on a Bible in Muslim
dominated countries yet it's quite readly available to purchase Mein Kampf in practically any book shop? " A couple of my pals, Christian missionary neighbors, here in Fes (in Morocco, a Muslim country) have just given birth to their second child - with a Christian baptism and circumcision by a Muslim doctor. For their just-reading-now daughter, not only can they get their hands on new bibles (in Arabic and French), there is a giant cathedral/school complex down the street from a neighbor mosque. There are Christian Moroccans, and they are living openly with the rest of us Muslims and (minority of) Jews. In addition, my friends are key players in the development of the Village of Hope around the mountain city of Azrou - the Village of Hope is an Christian orphanage which raises, educates and finds work for the lost or abandoned Moroccan children. While they can not aggressively proselytize to the existing Muslim community, they are free to live their lives in Christ and raise their kids and the orphans as Christian. The Village of Hope projects can be found online; they are not hiding there mission and Muslim Morocco apparently accepts that. For the sake of your question, I will keep my eyes open for Mein Kampf, however. I have never seen it in any bookstore here, in any city, ever. |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 23 July 2007 at 5:08am
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Jamal has replied to the question of E.S. Before that Sign*Reader has also denied having said anything about forceful conversion. There was no need for E.S. to have raised that issue of forceful conversions. Jamal has truly replied to the non-availability of bibles in Muslim countries.There is no such case unless it be in war torn countries like Iraq and Afghanistan. E.S. please do not give example of those places. Indicate which country you mean. Jamal has refuted your claim and I also do it so much that bible is available every where to every one here. The christians even come to our houses with the bible to preach to us in a Muslim country. We serve them with tea and biscuits. Some of them are RC. Other protestants. Some are the Jehovas witnesses (JW). But the JW's do not take any tea at our home. I do not know why. So E.S. Your this question is settled that it is a misinformation with you. Please bring your next point. Thanks. ( And may I say that I have never seen any Mein Kampf in my locality. Away with Hitler please. he is not here.)
------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 23 July 2007 at 5:13am
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Jamal has replied to the question of E.S. Before that Sign*Reader has also denied having said anything about forceful conversion. There was no need for E.S. to have raised that issue of forceful conversions. Jamal has truly replied to the non-availability of bibles in Muslim countries.There is no such case unless it be in war torn countries like Iraq and Afghanistan. E.S. please do not give example of those places. Indicate which country you mean. Jamal has refuted your claim and I also do it so much that bible is available every where to every one here. The christians even come to our houses with the bible to preach to us in a Muslim country. We serve them with tea and biscuits. Some of them are RC. Other protestants. Some are the Jehovas witnesses (JW). But the JW's do not take any tea at our home. I do not know why. So E.S. Your this question is settled that it is a misinformation with you. Please bring your next point. Thanks. ( And may I say that I have never seen any Mein Kampf in my locality. Away with Hitler please. he is not here.) ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: aka2x2
Date Posted: 23 July 2007 at 5:54am
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�Why is it a major task to get your hands on a Bible in Muslim dominated countries yet it's quite readly available to purchase Mein Kampf in practically any book shop?� E.S., you are off base on this one. You should have checked your facts better. The Quran commands Muslims to honor the Prophets who came before Mohammad (pbuh) and to respect the Books revealed before the Quran. Copies of Bible have always been available in Muslim countries (perhaps with the exception of CIA created Taliban). I have personally seen it for sale in bookstores. And, I have seen thriving churches in Muslim countries as well. I think what you meant to say was that proselytizing is illegal in most Muslim countries. I understand some Christians feel this is a religious mandate for them. Islam does not have a similar requirement so the idea is foreign to us. However, third world people have had bad experiences with this practice. Many peoples have been wiped out �to save their souls�. I hope you forgive us if we keep proselytizing illegal in order to save our own skins. I should also point out that, personally, I never knew Hitler had ever written a book, let alone it was called Mein Kampf, until I immigrated to the West. ------------- Respectfully aka2x2
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Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 23 July 2007 at 8:33am
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I lived in You can have a Bible just not proselytize. I went to msot bookstores and did not find Mein Kamph... that is not to say it is not there.. but the isolated place does not say it is everywhere. Just like not all people who are Catholic and go overseas to do "good works" is out to convert people. There is a huge variety of people. You are talking about a region that goes from West Africa to Indonesia..
------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: peacemaker
Date Posted: 23 July 2007 at 10:49am
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Assalamu Alaikum and hi everyone, E.S., please ask questions and you will get response, insha Allah ( God willing ). It is important that we comply with guidelines: http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4589&PN=1 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4589& ; ; ;PN=1 http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7684&PN=1 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7684& ; ; ;PN=1 Peace ------------- Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny? Qur'an 55:13 |