Kurdish Green Line, Turkish Red Line
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Topic: Kurdish Green Line, Turkish Red Line
Posted By: Nausheen
Subject: Kurdish Green Line, Turkish Red Line
Date Posted: 11 March 2005 at 8:29pm
Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,
Bismillah ir rehman ir rahim
Kurdish Green Line, Turkish Red Line
Quil Lawrence
March 11, 2005
(Quil Lawrence is a BBC reporter who covers Iraq and Turkey for "The World," a BBC/PRI radio program.)
Election day on January 30 was a day of celebration for the Kurds in Kirkuk, an ethnically mixed city just below the Zagros Mountains in northern Iraq. Despite the threat of car bombs, Kurds stood in long lines for hours awaiting their chance to cast a vote. A teenager was killed by a solitary mortar attack on a soccer stadium full of Kurds displaced by the "Arabization" campaigns of the former Iraqi regime -- but his death did not deter even the boy's family from voting. They buried him and went to the polls. The two main Kurdish parties swept the local elections and won a kingmaking role in national politics, with 75 seats in the transitional national assembly.
Before the elections, the Kurdish Democratic Party (KDP) and Patriotic Union of Kurdistan (PUK) pushed through the registration of about 60,000 extra Kurdish voters they said were returnees to Kirkuk -- like the ones in the stadium. The parties called this number the bare minimum to compensate for the hundreds of thousands of Kurds killed or driven out of Kirkuk and surrounding villages by Saddam Hussein's regime. Successive central governments in Baghdad had long sought to alter the demographic balance in the oil-rich region by expelling Kurdish and Turkoman residents, settling Arabs from the south and redrawing the provincial borders to include a larger proportion of Arabs. According to Human Rights Watch and the US Committee for Refugees, intensified "Arabization" after the 1991 Gulf war forcibly displaced over 120,000 Kurds and other non-Arabs from the Kirkuk region.
If the Kurdish parties saw the extra registrations as redressing a historic injustice, Arabs and Turkomans in Kirkuk saw them as aiming to stack the electoral deck. The sweep for the Kurdish parties strengthened their hand in pressing their perennial demand that Kirkuk be annexed to one of the three majority-Kurdish provinces in the north. Perhaps the only people more angry about the Kurdish parties' maneuver were the Turks.
DARK SUSPICIONS
The dream that may be coming true for the Kurds of Iraq -- making Kirkuk an official part of Kurdistan -- is a nightmare for the Turkish government. Deeply protective of the Iraqi Turkomans and ever fearful of separatist sentiment among the substantial Kurdish population in Turkey, the Turks now also fear that the Kurds of Iraq have the support of the United States. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice tried to dispel those fears when she visited Ankara, the Turkish capital, in February. Rice assured the Turks of "the commitment of the United States to a unified Iraq which is at peace with its neighbors." She mentioned the separatist PKK (the Kurdistan Workers' Party that recently renamed itself Kongra-Gel) in the same breath as the number one enemy in the US war on terrorism, al-Qaeda. Her words should have been music to Ankara's ears, but the Turks are not in a terribly trusting mood.
A surprising range of politicians and intellectuals in Turkey are voicing dark suspicions about the shape of Iraqi Kurdistan to come. "The US is creating a puppet state in northern Iraq and it is a very serious problem," said Turan Ozlu, sitting in the Istanbul office of the leftist-nationalist Isci party. "And the Kurds -- they're calling it 'Southern Kurdistan.'" An ex-military man would not normally find himself in the same camp as Isci, but these are interesting times in Turkey. After a 20-minute preamble about the proud history of US-Turkish relations, Mesut Hakki Casin, a former Turkish air force officer now at Istanbul's Yeditepe University, explained his concerns. "The main problem is how [the Kurds] use their oil," he said. "Within ten years the Kurds will have an army and air force, same as the Israel model, and they will request some of the territorial parts from Turkey. The US says, 'Don't worry.'" With hurt and anger on his face, he added, "But now we have a confidence problem with the US. Do you want the Turks as allies or as enemies?"
Casin thinks that, at some point, Turkey will be forced to make a preemptive strike into northern Iraq to prevent the rise of an independent Kurdish state bolstered by revenue from the Kirkuk region's petroleum. With ten million barrels of proven reserves, the area's oil fields are the second largest in Iraq. Many Turks consider the scenario of military intervention farfetched, but it has brought together an array of leftists and nationalists. Intervention over Kirkuk is the subject of "Metal Storm," a Turkish-language novel that wraps up with an all-out war between Turkey and the United States. The book, by first-time authors Burak Turna and Orkun Ucar, is a bestseller.
"DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL"
Perhaps the biggest fly in the ointment Rice was peddling in Ankara is the PKK, which fought a bitter separatist war with the Turkish military in the 1990s. On June 1, 2004, the group called off a five-year ceasefire that Turkey had never recognized. The PKK remains on the State Department's list of terrorist organizations, as Rice sought to underline when tacitly equating it with al-Qaeda. But the US military has something of a "don't ask, don't tell" policy about the several thousand PKK fighters who are living and training in the mountains inside northern Iraq. "If we ran into them, one of the terps [interpreters] would let us know and we would look the other way," one former US military officer in northern Iraq confided. As long as the PKK was not carrying out terrorist acts in Iraq, he continued, they would not be a priority for the US military.
It galls Ankara that Washington's emissaries condemn the PKK in such sharp language and then US soldiers merely watch as journalists hike up into the hills to visit the party's guerrillas outside Ranya in northern Iraq. The PKK has blasted deep caves into the hills, just in case the Turkish or US air forces bombard their camp. In the fall of 2003, months after US forces moved into the area, young men and women were conducting weapons drills and learning PKK doctrine, dressed in the traditional Kurdish trousers and sash, living on rice and beans and revolutionary zeal. Osman Ocalan, brother of the captured PKK leader Abdullah Ocalan, was resident in the camp.
In February 2005, Osman Ocalan had left the PKK, reportedly to live in the city of Mosul. He is still among Turkey's most wanted men, but Iraqi Kurdish officials said US forces know that Ocalan is there. With the chaos of insurgency in Mosul, it is not clear whether the US lacks the will or the resources to apprehend him.
The PKK volunteers who remain in the camp are Kurds from Iran, Iraq, Syria and Turkey. At the base of the trail leading to their training facility, they tend a cemetery for the movement's martyrs. Though most of the gravestones date from a war they fought with Iraqi Kurdish militias in the late 1990s, there were nine fresh burial mounds this winter. The guerrillas said five of the dead perished in skirmishes with Iranian border guards. They said the other four were killed in Mosul, but they would not specify how.
As much as their presence in Iraq enrages Ankara, the PKK do not seem to pose a great threat at the moment. There have been a few clashes between militants and Turkish security forces, both inside Turkey and along the country's borders with Syria and Iraq, but the PKK leadership is in flux. Many of the volunteers seem to be trying to return home and enter the political system -- some demobilized Iraqi PKK members even ran for local posts in the January 30 elections.
Entering and leaving the area where the PKK camp is located is like crossing a border. The peshmerga of the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, dressed now in their Iraqi National Guard uniforms, check all the cars coming in and out. There is even a customs official. The border there is just one of the many green lines that mark what the Kurds plan will become an autonomous Kurdistan. They may not be on the maps, but they are on the ground.
KURDISH BORDERS
Northern Iraq is one of the only places where one can buy maps of "Kurdistan." At the bazaars in Suleimaniya and Erbil, merchants display a small poster-sized copy that shows an area spanning mountains and plateaus from Iran to the Mediterranean. On the map, southeastern Turkey, western Iran, northern Iraq and eastern Syria are labeled as Northern, Eastern, Southern and "little South" Kurdistan, respectively.
When the great powers carved up the region after World War I, they left the Kurdish homeland divided such that Kurds were a minority in Iran, Turkey and the two majority-Arab proto-nations defined by the new borders. After Iraq and Syria became independent of colonial rule, their governments suppressed Kurdish nationalism, as did Iran and Turkey. The ethnic gerrymandering practiced by Iraqi governments -- most violently by the regime of Saddam Hussein -- was an attempt to dilute Kurdish political strength further.
Since 1991, the Kurds have enjoyed a de facto state in northern Iraq protected by a superpower with a guilty conscience. When the elder President George Bush told the Kurds and Shiite rebels in the south to "take matters into their own hands," the peshmerga rose up against Saddam Hussein's regime, only to be mowed down when the US army stopped short of Baghdad. A wave of refugees overwhelmed Turkey, and the Gulf war coalition commenced a major humanitarian operation in the northwest of Iraq. In April 1991, the US, Britain and France started patrolling a no-fly zone north of the thirty-sixth parallel. That was an arbitrary line as well -- in fact the Kurds set up fortifications along more natural borders like mountain ridges and rivers. In October, the Iraqi army withdrew entirely from the three northern provinces of Dohuk, Erbil and Suleimaniya.
When Baghdad fell on April 9, 2003, the 12-year old de facto Kurdish border seemed obsolete. Since 1991, the Kurds had patrolled a green line corresponding to the boundaries of the provinces the Iraqi army had left. April 10 was a day of euphoria. Kurdish refugees, peshmerga and happy looters rushed across the green line into Kirkuk, where they replayed the now infamous scene in Baghdad's Firdous Square -- except that in Kirkuk, the Kurds knocked over Saddam's statue without the assistance of a US tank.
The Kurdish parties kept up much lighter patrols along the green line until eid al-adha (the Muslim feast of the sacrifice) on February 1, 2004. On that day, two suicide bombers killed about 110 people in the city of Erbil. The next day the green line was up again. That night, unaccompanied Arabs were being arrested in Erbil. Outside the city toward the town of Makhmur, journalists saw peshmerga at a checkpoint rough up an Iraqi Arab journalist who had become indignant with them. The green line had never extended as far south as Makhmur, but the Kurds had decided that if they were going to set it up, they might as well move it out a few dozen kilometers first.
Now the green line may be here to stay. The formerly warring Kurdish parties have cut a deal among themselves and with the United Iraqi Alliance, which holds 140 seats in the new national assembly, whereby the PUK's Jalal Talabani will go to Baghdad in the ceremonial post of president, and the KDP's Masoud Barzani will run the autonomous provinces of Kurdistan. The president's job may appear more prestigious, but many Kurds say all they want Talabani to do in Baghdad is defend their right to ignore the chaotic mess to the south of their green line. As president, Talabani also will have a say in where that line is finally drawn.
REDRAWING THE LINES
Having tasted autonomy since 1991, the Kurds living behind the old green line certainly will not give it up. But Kirkuk is not the only place where the parties are feeling pressure to extend the line southward. Another is the town of Kifri in what the Kurds call "warm country" at the southernmost tip of the Kurdish area. Since the 1970s, Kifri has been part of the province of Diyala, a mostly Arab region lying between Baghdad and the Iranian border and administered by a Sunni Arab governor. But 14 years of de facto Kurdish rule has made the town reluctant to change its ways.
Kurds in Kifri see no reason to be part of a province that includes trouble spots like the city of Baquba -- where numerous US soldiers and members of the nascent Iraqi National Guard have been killed by insurgents. Even the Arabs in town tell reporters they would be happy to be permanently absorbed into the north. Nazha Hussein came to answer the door with her daughter. They have lived in Kifri for 20 years. They own another property south of here, but Hussein doesn't want to leave. "My husband says we should go, but I still say no. Here is a better and calmer place," she said. Her teenage daughter Iman listened modestly from the hallway a few steps back into the house. She shook her head when asked if she had ever traveled to central or southern Iraq, saying simply "infijar" -- the Arabic word for explosion.
The governor of Diyala has been to Kifri a few times to assert his jurisdiction. At one point, he came to town accompanied by US soldiers who nearly ended up in a shootout with Kurdish fighters. The town has been quiet since then, but the atmosphere remains tense. Peshmerga at the city limits insisted on escorting visiting journalists to the mayor's office. Kifri might be Kurdish on the ground, but it could be a fight in Baghdad to get any of the provincial lines redrawn.
Meanwhile, there have been reports of Kurdish families fleeing Hawija, west of Kirkuk near Tikrit, since 2004. The town is dominated by Sunni Arabs. Haybad Rostam and her 12 children fled Hawija in January, after graffiti appeared around town that read, "Kill the Kurds first, then the Americans." "They threw threatening letters into our houses telling us to leave. Otherwise, we could be killed. At the end, when they killed my nephew and his friends, we decided to leave," she said. Rostam says eight other Kurdish men were also killed. Along with hundreds of other Kurdish families, Rostam took her family to Kirkuk. Kurdish officials in Kirkuk corroborated Rostam's version of events.
Rostam's new house is in a neighborhood that in April 2003 was full of poor Shiite Arab families who, having been "imported" to Kirkuk by the old regime, were nervous that vengeful Kurds would evict them or worse. When asked who had lived in her house before she fled here from Hawija, Rostam said she did not know.
With their success at the polls on January 30, the Kurdish parties were able to drive a hard bargain with the United Iraqi Alliance, composed mainly of Shiite religious parties and their supporters. According to press reports on March 10, the Kurds have agreed to back the alliance's candidate, Ibrahim Jaafari of the Dawa Party, for prime minister in the new transitional government. In exchange, Talabani will assume the presidency, but the Kurds also claim to have wrung a territorial concession from the Shiite parties. "Regarding Kirkuk, we agreed that the first phase will be normalization," PUK spokesman Azad Jundiyan told the Associated Press. "Normalization" is the word the Kurdish parties use to refer to returning displaced Kurds to their areas of origin. "As for annexation of the city, that will be discussed after the government is formed, while writing the constitution."
Any official redrawing of provincial boundaries will have to be approved as part of the slated referendum on a permanent Iraqi constitution. But since PUK peshmerga rushed into Kirkuk in 2003, the Kurds have been creating facts on the ground in the disputed city. Kurdish businessmen from prosperous Suleimaniya and Erbil have carried out most of the reconstruction. With peshmerga now wearing uniforms of the Iraqi National Guard, it would not be difficult for the Kurdish parties to extend their green line down around Kirkuk -- exactly what Turkey maintains is unacceptable.
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For background on the dispute over Kirkuk, see International Crisis Group, "Iraq: Allaying Turkey's Fears Over Kurdish Ambitions," January 26, 2005. The report is accessible online at http://www.crisisweb.org/home/index.cfm?id=3241&l=1 - http://www.crisisweb.org/home/index.cfm?id=3241&l=1
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Replies:
Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 11 March 2005 at 8:31pm
For history of the Iraqi regimes' "Arabization" campaigns, see Human Rights Watch, "Iraq: Forcible Expulsion of Ethnic Minorities" (March 2003). The report is accessible online at http://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/iraq0303/ - http://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/iraq0303/
------------- <font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR]
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Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 12 March 2005 at 7:10am
Mustaffa and Suleyman - what do you guys think about this alliance
between the UIA and the Kurds? It would get the US out of Iraq a lot
faster, but I can understand why that might worry Turks. You guys would
be seeing Iranian BBQ grills from your back porch within a fortnight.
You guys know the picture - please post!
DavidC
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Posted By: Mustafaa
Date Posted: 13 March 2005 at 3:12am
I discussed this subject on another Islamic discussion board some one week ago.
I use the identity "Mathsson" there. Below is the discussion among myself and a sister who's using the identity "Turkgirl" and another brother who's using the identity Abu Turaba.
Mathsson (i.e. Mustafaa) wrote:
I'll quote a news report, but I will talk myself before that.
People talk about Syria and Iran, but many guess that a future war between Turks and Kurds, with Americans siding with one of them, most likely with Kurds, is in the making.
I am sorry that I did not feel enough sympathy for my Iraqi and Irani brethren, who were led to a terrible war by Saddam Hussein, the then puppet of western imperialism, who initially claimed to fight in the name of Western secularism against Khomeini's Shariah regime in Iran. Now, the American plans on the Central Islamic Lands have been taken even further, and the accursed American government is planning to attack Iran after its deceptive and deceitful occupation of Iraq.
More directly concerning for me, my friends and my family is a possible war between Kurds and Turks in North Iraq. It just depends on the American plans for the future of OUR lands WHEN we, the people of the Central House of Islam, will be taken into another war among ourselves by our stupid rulers and the Americans.
There was already a war within Turkey between the Turkish army and the PKK (the Labour Party of Kurdistan), both led by secularist despots abusing the grievances of the Turkish and Kurdish nations. When Abdullah Ocalan, the leader of PKK, was captured and put in jail several years ago, the war paused. I fear that even a worse war may be being planned by the accursed Americans who have come here to stir up hate and resentment and pretexts for future occupations of OUR lands.
Here's the news report from al-Jazeerah:
Turkish troops deploy in N Iraq
Saturday 05 March 2005, 2:33 Makka Time, 23:33 GMT
The Turkish army has deployed 1357 soldiers in northern Iraq to fight Kurdish separatists, Defence Minister Vecdi Gonul said.
Gonul, in answer to parliamentary questions, said the Turkish troops, deployed since 1992 in the Kurdish region of northern Iraq, were there mainly to pursue the Kurdish separatist Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK).
Turkish officers in the area also act as a liaison with US troops deployed in Kirkuk, Mosul and Tal Afar, the minister added.
An estimated 5000 Kurdish separatists have taken refuge in the mountains of northern Iraq, according to Turkish authorities.
The PKK waged a bloody 15-year war for self-rule in the mainly Kurdish eastern and south-eastern parts of Turkey before announcing a unilateral ceasefire in 1999.
The war is estimated to have killed 36,000 people.
The group called off the truce in June last year, threatening to carry out attacks and warning tourists and investors to stay away from the country.
Since then, there has been a sharp increase in clashes between the rebels and Turkish government troops.
Turkgirl wrote in reply:
Well the first thing is, I think the Turks are too uptight when it comes to Kurds. The Kurds in Turkey have been denied fundamental rights by the Turkish government for so long (I think that goes also for Kurds anywhere else), but this is will all be settled iA. The current government is giving Kurds more rights
Concerning the current dilemma, of Turks getting in war with Iraqi Kurds;
I think Turkish politicians think like this; an attack can lead to the partition of Iraq, which can mean the establishment of an independent Kurdistan, which can mean they also want to include the cities with an high Kurdish population in Turkey to this new Kurdistan.
I would want them to think like this; Lets do what's best for our Kurdish brothers in Islam. But the thing is Turkey is Sunni, and many Kurdish Iraqi's are Shia, I hope this will not divide us.
Furthermore, supporting the U.S. in this war means more money from the IMF
In this case, the U.S. should be our enemy, and Iraq should be our friend.
A BBC poll taken in the recent past found that 82% of Turks believe Bush's reelection made the world a more dangerous place. That's the highest figure in any country surveyed.
Last but not least;
'Abdullah bin Mas'ud, may Allah be pleased with him, reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace and blessings be upon him) observed: Abusing a Muslim is an outrage and fighting against him is disbelief.
Jarir, may Allah be pleased with him, narrated: The Messenger of Allah (may peace and blessings be upon him) asked me on the occasion of the Farewell Pilgrimage to make the people silent and then said: Do not return to disbelief after me by striking the necks of one another.
Abu Bakrah, may Allah be pleased with him, reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: When two Muslims confront each other and the one among them attacks his brother with a weapon, both the murderer and the murdered will get into Hell-Fire. He (Ahnaf, one of the narrators) said: I said, or it was said: Messenger of Allah, it may be the case of one who kills, but what about the slain (why he would be put in Hell-Fire)? Thereupon he said: He also intended to kill his companion.
Mathsson wrote:
Quote:
the thing is Turkey is Sunni, and many Kurdish Iraqi's are Shia, I hope this will not divide us. | Many Turkomans in Iraq are also Shiites, but the Turkish government does not hesitate to advocate their rights on the grounds that they are the same ethnicity as the Turks of Turkey.
The problem is that they don't want to accept the fact that Turkey does not belong to Turks only, but both to Turks and Kurds, given that at least 25% of the Turkish population is actually Kurdish.
Therefore, even when you speak in ethnical terms only, Kurds are our brothers in ethnicity as strongly as Turkomans are. However, as you have expressed very well, what actually matters is the brotherhood in Islam, not in ethnicity. But the secular elite of Turkey will not understand this.
Mathsson wrote again:
Quote:
the thing is Turkey is Sunni, and many Kurdish Iraqi's are Shia, I hope this will not divide us. | Again as to this sentence of yours, sister Gulsum.
I think you worry about how the Islamic segment of the Turkish society will feel about the Shiite brothers in Iraq. Although I have lost faith in Turkish Muslims to a great extent, I don't think that they will be so immature.
However, what the Islamic segment of the Turkish society will feel about all of the matter will not affect the actual actions of the Republic of Turkey. It has become clear that Tayyip Erdogan will not be able to do anything helpful or reasonable for Muslims...
What we need is a great Islamic Enlightenment movement here in Turkey, which will make the practising Muslims among us conscious enough and the non-practing Muslims more informed of what Islam is actually about.
Certainly, all the present movements have failed. They believe in politics and in total, dogmatic domination on young people. I have lost faith in them completely. Because I have always been humiliated by our brothers who are jamaah- and tariqah-members, I don't think I will ever want to marry a hijabi Turkish woman, who will probably be like her male counterparts in terms of a chosen-ness psychology and consequent arrogance.
Abu Turaba wrote in reply to Turkgirl:
Words of wisdom as usual from Turkgirl, mathsson and the rest. The top-selling novel in Turkey right now is a work of fiction describing just this hypothetical US attack and invasion of Turkey over the Kurdish issue in Northern Iraq. It's called Metal Firtina (Metal Storm?) and selling like lahmajun in all the political and intellectual centers of the country, both secular and Islamic, since the fear of such American aggression is feared by all regardless of ideology. It's very interesting that Russian and the EU actually come to the rescue of Turkey in this novel any way.
Here's a link to a good article about the subject. http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0215/p01s04-woeu.html - http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0215/p01s04-woeu.html
It's also interesting to note that the Americans are increasingly looking on their erstwhile staunch Turkish NATO allies with suspicion. In the current season of the show 24, the Muslim terrorists in California are Turkish and the origin of the dirty bomb in the recent HBO/BBC movie called Dirty War was in Istanbul.
InshaAllah may Allah stregthen this vital bulwark of the Muslim Ummah and unite and empower us even better than we were in the days of the Osmali [i.e. Ottomans].
Mathsson replied to Abu Turaba:
It's fascinating that you know of this book better than me while, although I am a Turk living in Turkey, even I was too lazy to examine carefully.
But just like any ordinary Turkish guy interested in politics at least a little, I was attracted by the cover of the book immediately.
I think most other Turks are like me in that I'd love Americans to be terribly annoyed by our lack of gullibility regarding the "purity" their intentions towards us. But this may make the Turkish-American War closer, I am afraid. As our Prophet says, "Do not want to fight powerful enemies. But when you have to, remember that Paradise is under the shade of the Swords."
Russia and EU coming to the help of Turkey? Never ever can it possible! It was first and foremost the Russians and then other Europeans who destroyed masses of our people (Turkish and other) in Europe and elsewhere, and even wanted to annihilate the Ottoman-Turkish nation at his very home in NW Turkey. The descendants of the Ottomans have never forgotten the centuries of Russo-European alliance against their fathers, and perhaps they never will.
Abu Turaba wrote:
Thank you all for your awfully kind words and rep points. I consider myself a Turkophile of sorts or more accurately an Osmanli Irredentalist, if u will. I studied the history of the Osmali in college and subhanAllah there is much to be proud of and aspire to emulate there, despite all the typical flaws of any empire. Even OBL mentions 1924 as a significant sad turning point in the history of the Ummah. I don't even like calling them Ottomans, for one they r not Germans, despite all the Turks in Germany now (lol, who needs Vienna, we will skip them and go right for Berlin ) and it shows u the thinly veiled contempt they have for us when they name a piece of furniture to rest one's feet on an "Ottoman."
I agree with our psychotic teddy buddy, I think in all the talk of oil in the middle east we lose sight of the fact that the most precious thing for millennia in that area has been water. Turkey already exports water to Israel and controls significant water shed regions of Tigris, Euphrates and several smaller rivers. May well be the cause of future armed conflict.
I advise all of u interested in the subject to try and read another fascinating book. It's called "The Peace to End All Peace - The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and Creation of the Modern Middle East." It's by David Fromkin, who is a typical British Orientalist type but it's the best work I have ever come across, at least in English. Not an easy read though, very complicated story, took me a couple years to get thru it all.
------------- There is no deity but Allah. Muhammad is the (last) Messenger of Allah.
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Posted By: Suleyman
Date Posted: 13 March 2005 at 4:14am
Es_Selam'un Aleykum ve Rahmetullahi ve Berakatuh,
David,the issue is so acute for me;i scare to making an wrong comment;because there are many points which can't see in the game...i am watching the game from an interesting point coming from one of my parent(a close one) who is the leader of nationalist movement party and who was the former co-prime minister of the previous government.There are so many things which we don't know and explaining my thoughts and experiences on the issue will not be good for me;)no need...All i know is we should unite inside the name of Islam leaving our sected names and visions...
Coming to Israel and US Army in Iraq;i can honestly say that if the Turkish army wants to kick them out from the North Iraq,three days will be enough for them for protecting the united Iraq...i trust my hidden sources and they are ready to do...US Army is sleeping and does not know the real picture...i wish they will not pass the redlines...Amin;this will not be good for the bothside...hardwork...
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Posted By: Mustafaa
Date Posted: 13 March 2005 at 4:43am
I think America will not establish Oil-istan, err, Kurdistan before it invades Iran and Syria as well. Then everywhere around Turkey will be full of American soldiers, and Americans will easily add much of Turkey to the newly founded state of Kurdistan.
I hope Americans will be smashed in the Middle East before they do that, and won't succeed in making Turks and Kurds fight each other.
But David, please first read my above post.
------------- There is no deity but Allah. Muhammad is the (last) Messenger of Allah.
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Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 13 March 2005 at 5:50am
I read the post again, thank you for reposting it.
My reading of the UIA and PKK alliance is that it will make it easier for
Iraq to unite and for the US to leave Iraq, but at the expense of Turkish
security.
I don't think Kurds and Turks fighting are in the US interest. All the US
needs is to to ensure that the oil cannot be cut off. Price is not an issue.
This demands political stability and a Kurdish/Turkish war would be a
bad thing for the US.
DavidC
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Posted By: Suleyman
Date Posted: 13 March 2005 at 6:01am
David,there will be no war between Kurds and Turks;we can't compare a nation with the persons living under the tents separated into 10.000 pieces....you can talk about Turkish/USA war but;we have no chance of saying,comparing a group with a country who has a past more than 5000 years having the world's second big army...please,search on more about Turkey....there will be no war with kurds only can be with Israel and USA,whenever the turkish army wants to kick them out;it will be only for united Iraq,not for it's benefits while they are sitting on the oil,Turks are permanent nation as Aleem Maulana Maududi stated in his tafseer which is called Tafheem'ul Qur'an...we don't use force for money and oil,just for peace and happiness.....Wa Salaam.
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Posted By: Mustafaa
Date Posted: 13 March 2005 at 7:07am
Turks are permanent nation as Aleem Maulana Maududi stated in his tafseer which is called Tafheem'ul Qur'an
Does Mawdudi infer that from the Qur'an itself? Strange!
------------- There is no deity but Allah. Muhammad is the (last) Messenger of Allah.
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Posted By: Suleyman
Date Posted: 13 March 2005 at 7:15am
Mustafaa wrote:
Turks are permanent nation as Aleem Maulana Maududi stated in his tafseer which is called Tafheem'ul Qur'an
Does Mawdudi infer that from the Qur'an itself? Strange!
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Brother,there is no ayat telling about Turks,in his tafseer;he was talking about the history,giving the Turks as an example;as you know Maududi is one of the big historians in the world who put the history and the science of shariat in one box confirming each other...it was just an example telling that their backgrounds(Turk's) carries good potential for Islam....Wa Salaam...
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Posted By: Suleyman
Date Posted: 13 March 2005 at 7:20am
A note;Kurds and Turks are brothers and sisters in ISLAM...we should join on the same point(Islam)....
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Posted By: fezziwig
Date Posted: 13 March 2005 at 8:54am
I believe that the constant interneccine problems we see between sects
illustrates the wisdom of church/state separation. If it were just
words and some civil injustice that might be tolerable, but war and
genocide are so common between religion-dominated nations that it makes
one sad.
F
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Posted By: Mustafaa
Date Posted: 14 March 2005 at 4:59am
fezziwig wrote:
I believe that the constant interneccine problems we see between sects illustrates the wisdom of church/state separation. If it were just words and some civil injustice that might be tolerable, but war and genocide are so common between religion-dominated nations that it makes one sad.
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That sounds like an "automated response". What religious sects are you talking about? We were talking about two separate nations that are both led by secularists. Religion-dominated nations? So funny when only about 10 per cent of Turks and Kurds are practising Muslims, and all their leading elites have nothing to do with Islam.
If Turks and Kurds were religiously motivated nations, the fight between the Kurdish rebels of PKK (=the Labour Party of Kurdistan =a secularist, socialist organization) and the secularist army of Turkey would not have taken place.
------------- There is no deity but Allah. Muhammad is the (last) Messenger of Allah.
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Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 01 May 2005 at 8:19am
Suleyman wrote:
David,there will be no war between Kurds and Turks;we can't compare a nation with the persons living under the tents separated into 10.000 pieces....you can talk about Turkish/USA war but;we have no chance of saying,comparing a group with a country who has a past more than 5000 years having the world's second big army...please,search on more about Turkey....there will be no war with kurds only can be with Israel and USA,whenever the turkish army wants to kick them out;it will be only for united Iraq,not for it's benefits while they are sitting on the oil,Turks are permanent nation as Aleem Maulana Maududi stated in his tafseer which is called Tafheem'ul Qur'an...we don't use force for money and oil,just for peace and happiness.....Wa Salaam.
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Excuse me for my little poking into the issue as I caught something strange here. Though I have poor knowledge about the kurds, however, to my understanding your reasoning is similar to what Israel try to portray to the world when it comes to genocide of innocent palestinians or when saddam hussain was crushing the kurds (his own muslim brothers and sisters in Islam). Your reasoning seems to say that since these kurds don't have a seperate national identity hence they don't have any logical grounds to raise their voice against these atrocities? If turkey also follow the same path as that of Sadam, then this action shall not be considered as war but a local issue? This is a strange view... However what will happen if the kurds do get some physical ground from new Iraqi settlement under the support of USA? Then the issue between the two (Turky and the kurds) would not be seen as a local issue but a war between the two nations. Regarding your notion of turks being permanent nation and its authenticity from Maulana Moududi, suffice to note that this concept of nation-state is quite recent in history. You can't extrapolate your analysis beyond, lets say, 4 to 5 centuries back what to talk of 5000 years. Who knows these turks and kurds, which we now see as two seperate identities, would have coexisted back then centuries ago? It would not be out of logic to even consider them two brothers from the same family, one opted to wander in one land and the other opted to go somewhere else; afterall, we are all from the same one seed of Adam. Isn't it?
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Posted By: Suleyman
Date Posted: 01 May 2005 at 8:35am
Brother,i agree with u...i told about one or two conjectures about the issue and issue includes more than this...shortly we are agreed on the basics,coming to the analyses,i don't like that issue...so much pain includes inside of it and at these days my head can't resist;i seek for positive energy and this issue includes so much cruelty and negative energy and it disturbs me...i apologize...Wa Salaam...
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