The "Idolatry" stamp...
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Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
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Topic: The "Idolatry" stamp...
Posted By: E.S.
Subject: The "Idolatry" stamp...
Date Posted: 19 July 2007 at 12:39am
I've noticed Muslims and many Christians from other congregations label
Catholics as idol worshippers. A question to some. I'm sure many of you
carry pictures of your children, parents, siblings, etc.. in your wallets and at
times you find yourself kissing the picture out of longing or love. Are you
actually kissing the material? The paper? The ink? No your kissing the
representation of the person. In the early years of the Church there were
many instances where cult worship of an image such as a statue for example
were taking place. That was supressed by the leaders of the Church,
showing that these new Christians (whom recently converted from a
paganistic idol worshipping religion) still carried on there old practice only
transfering it over to Christianity. This line was specifically drawn by the
leaders and was stopped. Therefore you cannot label any Christian as an idol
worshipper.
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Replies:
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 19 July 2007 at 8:50am
Is there not a difference between having a picture of someone and praying to that picture? Asking for them for the same guidance that only God can provide.
There is a difference between seeing a picture and acknoledging feeling and another giving that person mystical, forgiveness, powers. No human can be God. Humans are so "small" compares to God. How many people you know have created a universe?
It is human egoism that puts any human on the same plane as the Divine.
------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Posted By: Aisha Muslima
Date Posted: 19 July 2007 at 10:37am
For ur information having pictures and statues of any living things are haram in Islam and there are many clear proofs of that. I show u one of them and if you want other proofs i can posts them also
Volume 4, Book 54, Number 447:
Narrated 'Aisha:
I stuffed for the Prophet a pillow decorated with pictures (of animals) which looked like a Namruqa (i.e. a small cushion). He came and stood among the people with excitement apparent on his face. I said, "O Allah's Apostle! What is wrong?" He said, "What is this pillow?" I said, "I have prepared this pillow for you, so that you may recline on it. He said, "Don't you know that angels do not enter a house wherein there are pictures; and whoever makes a picture will be punished on the Day of Resurrection and will be asked to give life to (what he has created)?"
------------- Aisha Muslima
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Posted By: E.S.
Date Posted: 19 July 2007 at 11:19pm
I reiterate the pictures, statues are a representation of that person not the
actual person. We can easily pray to Jesus, the Virgin Mary, the saints with
or without "material". You must look at the culture where Christianity took
it's strongest roots, in Europe, and the Middle East. The "Mediterranean"
cultures have always surrounded themselves with statues or other forms
of imagery. Religious or secular. You also must remember Christianity is a
very symbolic faith probably more then most. For that many others who
do not or cannot understand that level of symbolism have taken it and
formed it into wrong impressions such as the ones believed by you and
others in this forum. When I walk by an image of the Crucifix I do not
pray to it or become saddened by the actual object, after all it is a man
made object but I am saddened by the MEANING of it. One must never
take anything literal in life for nothing can be literal. Human feelings and
thoughts and emosions cannot be seen or even truly heard at times so
humans have always developed art. A visual representation of an actual
event. Art is a MEANING (symbolic) that helps those who cannot let's say
read or "see between the lines" and helps him/her understand the
emotions discribed through the sense of vision.
Now concerning the "humans equal to God" that Hayfa mentioned. I
believe you speak of the Saints which are purely followed by the Catholic
and Eastern Orthodox faiths. Saints are not worship let me reclarify this.
Nor are they anything near God. Saints help us remember that although
humans we are and are bound to sin, we do know that there are or were
men, such as ourselves, who were born, lived, and died, like any other
human yet they lived a life worth admiring. They inspire us to become
better people. Not better Christians to each other but to all Muslims,
Jews, Hindus etc.. In order to become a saint one must have lived a life,
not even there entire life as stand up and pure beings. Miracles are also
attributed to them. When one prays to a saint he prays for example for
better health for a family member or friend to a certain saint who was
known at his time to cure or releave such woes. Saints help us become
closer to God in a way. They are also closer spiritualy to the Creator. We
pray to them but not worship them.
There are differences that need to be understood between symbolism and
taking things literally. Once the barriers of understanding these
differences are removed, you will come to understand why these are our
beliefs.
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Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 20 July 2007 at 2:19am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem
This should be in interfaith section.
E.S regarding the trinity and priests ability to forgive sins,
The reality is idolatry even though the intention may not be.
------------- Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 20 July 2007 at 6:31am
Now concerning the "humans equal to God" that Hayfa mentioned. I believe you speak of the Saints which are purely followed by the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox faiths.
Actually I was referring to putting Jesus (PBUH) on the same plane as God.
As far as Saints.. they may be more "pure" and be role models as such as St. Francis of Assisi. But I am not sure they as followers of God, would want you to pray to them. Most, I assume, were quite humble and would probably say you should pray directly to Your God, your Creator, The Divine.
And as Rami mentioned the intention was not idolatry, but it has turned into it.
The Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) did not want people to ever pray to him. He is not God. He is but a humble servant. And that is prboably true of any follower of God. Be it a Prophet or Saint or guru. It puts another person between you and God. And really, if God is with you all the time, within you, there is no need to bring another person into it.
Peace
------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Posted By: E.S.
Date Posted: 21 July 2007 at 2:21am
Before I continue my explanations.... How do you explain the Kabaa? Is it not
a man made object where millions of Muslims crowd about it, kneel before it
and reach out an kiss the stone held in it? Is that not an act of worshipping
an idol?
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Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 21 July 2007 at 11:21am
E.S. you posed a really good question here and I'd like to answer you.
The general consensus especially to adherents of the Abrahamic faiths is that all forms of idolatry is wrong. With that I'm sure Christians Jews and Muslims can agree. Now, what we run into is the complex issue of what is considered idolatry? Of course the general opinion, again, would be to revere an animate object which is of material substance and to revere it aside from revering God (or revering it more than God).
However what is considered reverence is of issue. I know exactly what Christians are saying when they say "we are not revering the image but seeking intercessors on our behalf." To Christians, "Saints" are closer to God than the humans on earth so from my understanding when I was Christian to ask a Saint (again this is done mostly by Catholics) is to ask for blessings on behalf of oneself. To the Muslim viewing this, this is nothing more than idolatry (if the Muslim looks at this for face value).
However, to the Christian it is not. It is simply seeking out God through his "beloved." As a child I never agreed with praying to replicas of Saints and/prophets. Even when I thought that I was doing the right thing I never felt like it was the right thing. Of course this is because around this time I fell out with Christianity. I really don't knock Christians that do this. Frankly, I'm not God and neither are Muslims or Jews. I believe that since God has designed our minds he can very much read them and know what is in them and know our intentions.
In some respect I think its noble. Some Christians say that they are unworthy to approach God in prayer because of their sins therefore they pray to Saints to intercede on their behalf which is one of the reasons why they pray to statues. Some believe that these replicas of Saints have some spiritual value to them. I think its a matter of personal perspective. Whether we believe that the statues have value or not is for the person to decide. I hate when we put value judgements on people especially those we disagree with.
Muslims exactly do the same thing but different. We kiss the stone because in the Hadith, the prophet kissed the stone. For an outsider, this type of action is reverence to an animate object. E.S. what this boils down is to religious opinion on the matter and I think no Muslim or Jew or Christian has any right put value judgements on the other simply because we may disagree with it. God ultimately will decide our right and wrong action.
As for your inquiry above the general Muslim opinion is Muslims do not revere the Kaa'ba although we may call it Beit'ullah or House of God we do not believe God resides inside. The circumbulation of the Kaa'ba is basically performing a ritual which others that have come before have done from the prophet Muhammad to Adam himself. I don't believe Muslims kneel before it but yes Muslims that go on the pilgrammage to Mecca do kiss the stone but not because of worship but because the prophet kissed it and it is made Sunnah. In a previous thread I made the mention that I will choose to not kiss it.
Like I said before your interpretation of this practice is that it looks like idolatry when Muslims consider it religion. Its a matter of opinion if you believe its idolatry then you believe its idolatry.
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Posted By: E.S.
Date Posted: 23 July 2007 at 12:07am
Great response Israfil.
Firstly, in Christianity we do feel unworthy towards God as I'm sure
Muslims and Jews do to. That doesnt really mean we do not pray to Him
directly or the fact that we need rituals before a prayers or intercessions
of Saints. That is a choice one makes it's not required by the Church. We
can easily pray to Him wether your in the car, or at home, or in your
garden God is always ready to hear you and loves that you do.
We also believe the Saints are closer to God as you stated also. Through
there benevolent and pious life, God has given them, within there
lifetimes and even afterlife, the power of miracles. If God bestowed such
powers then it shouldnt be wrong to pray for there intercession in any
troubles we might have.
At the end of it all it really does depend on the individual of either faiths
what is idolatry and what is not. What concerns me is that Muslims are
thought that it is when Christians, who would know more about there
own religion, are stuck explaining this to them to no avail. As a child I did
receive instructions on Islam through my education with the Jesuits and
we were not thought that about Islam at all.
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Posted By: buddyman
Date Posted: 23 July 2007 at 4:00pm
E.S. wrote:
I've noticed Muslims and many Christians from other congregations label Catholics as idol worshippers. A question to some. I'm sure many of you carry pictures of your children, parents, siblings, etc.. in your wallets and at times you find yourself kissing the picture out of longing or love. Are you actually kissing the material? The paper? The ink? No your kissing the representation of the person. In the early years of the Church there were many instances where cult worship of an image such as a statue for example were taking place. That was supressed by the leaders of the Church, showing that these new Christians (whom recently converted from a paganistic idol worshipping religion) still carried on there old practice only transfering it over to Christianity. This line was specifically drawn by the leaders and was stopped. Therefore you cannot label any Christian as an idol worshipper. |
The commandment reads:
4"(E)You shall not make for yourself [b]an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.
You shouldn't make idols of what is in heaven or on the Earth BENEATH or in the water UNDER the Earth. Of course we know our God is above, but pagan Gods are beneath, that is why the previous commandment was to not have any other Gods.
5"(F)You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a (G)jealous God, (H)visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,
DO NOT WORSHIP THEM!!!
6but showing lovingkindness to (I)thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
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Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 24 July 2007 at 1:18am
E.S. God knows the minds and intentions of every creature from the great to the minute. I too feel unworthy before God that is why I hardly quote scripture. In the past when I was first here I used to but I don't because number one I'm no scholar in the Qur'an and number two I may misinterpret a verse. That is why it baffles me to see some Christians quote the Bible and in between stating their opinions use Hebrew words in conjunction to their opinions like when they talk about the Sh'ma (or sometimes pronounced Shema) they, somehow, make elohim to refer to Jesus someway and Echad (which literally means one in Hebrew similar to the Arabic word ahad) to mean a trinity.
See with this all this boil down to is interpretation
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