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abuayisha 
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Muslim Joined: 05 October 1999 Location: Los Angeles Status: Offline Points: 5105 |
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 Posted: 23 June 2008 at 5:32am |
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Nausheen
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Female Joined: 10 January 2001 Status: Offline Points: 4251 |
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Posted: 23 June 2008 at 12:50am |
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Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir Rajeem,
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim,
Talking about derailments, when I was moderating this used to my prime effort not to let things get side tracked - just cannot beleive how silly I was back then! Sorry to all old folks whom I caused undue distress. Once I went for an interview for a part time job of teaching english with accompanied by an iraninan friend. This guy, who would have been our boss came to interview us - two women in hijabs, was perhaps a strange sight for him in Japan - he being a westerner. He extended his hand for a shake to my friend, and she in her natural way declined saying "no sorry I wont shake hands". To this he asked why, and she said, "for family" ... those two words were her only reason - and it was so hilarious an experience for me - the guy was left totally perplexed!. D�n't really remember how the interview went, but you might have guessed by now, we did not get the job
 Refusing is not such a big deal, as long as you don't explain yourself as breifly as "for family"!!
In Japan I just have to say no, sorry. It is sufficient most of the times. And the best part is that their culture is so much like ours (Indian) they do not offer a handshake in most cases. If they are doing so, its perhaps due to the reason you are a non-jap, so refusing is no big deal. I kind of feel luckier than sisters in the west who may have to go through more awkward situations in their nos.
Edited by Nausheen - 23 June 2008 at 12:52am |
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<font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR] |
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Chrysalis
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Joined: 25 November 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2033 |
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Posted: 23 June 2008 at 12:22am |
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:) Honestly, you can never keep a thread in a forum strictly topic-wise. If a thread is about apples, the discussion will naturally grow into one about oranges. . . and as long as the discussion is about fruits, its ok
 I think everything we talked about here relates to muslim women, so alls good!
Brother, could you pl share the Qaradawi Fatwa? I'd like to know more.
My view is the same as Sis Nausheen, Israfil & Abuayisha's. . . I personally try not to shake hands with opp gender, and if the male in question is a Muslim, I do not feel awkward/embarrassed to decline. Bcz I expect a muslim man, no matter how ignorant, to know his limits. And sometimes, I'v noticed they are just trying to show how 'westernized' or modern they are, others wanna knw how far they can push thier luck . . .
However, my attitude towards shaking hands with Non-Muslims is comparitively lenient. . . and though I will not extend my hand, but if there are ppl standing around, I will not stick my hand behind my back and say no . . .simply because I do not want to embarrass the other person in front of others, and make him look bad. . .cz it looks rude. And I do not expect all non-muslims to know that muslims dont shake hands with the opp sex, especially since it is the muslims themselves telling them 'Aww shucks, its only the extremists, im a moderate!' :-/ Especially if I'll not be meeting them again.
However when it comes to colleages at Univ, I politely explain why I dont shake hands . . .since I know I'll be coming into contact with them everyday and then will be expected to greet accordingly every single time. The only time I made an exception was an african student, because he was being given a cold-shoulder, and nobody wanted to talk to him/ sit with him etc etc. . .so I didnt wanna seem like a racist. (tho, mind you I didnt extend myself!) Edited by Chrysalis - 23 June 2008 at 12:26am |
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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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abuayisha
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Muslim Joined: 05 October 1999 Location: Los Angeles Status: Offline Points: 5105 |
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Posted: 22 June 2008 at 10:59pm |
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To say this tread has been derailed is an understatement, but how interesting it has become. Anyway, once my internet dsl line went down and I called for repair. There were three male technicians and one female technician in my office all trying to get me back online. They worked for about two hours until finally the problem was solved. Everyone was ecstatic about solving the problem. All male repair staff upon leaving were joking and smiling and shook my hand. At this time I was also of the opinion that shaking hands was not permissible, but just couldn't bring myself, given the situation, to not acknowledge the efforts of the female, who like her counterparts, worked hard at getting my office back online. So when she extended her hand like the others I did shake her hand also. I was happy some years later to read the fatwa of Qaradawi. Edited by abuayisha - 22 June 2008 at 11:00pm |
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Israfil
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Joined: 08 September 2003 Status: Offline Points: 3984 |
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Posted: 22 June 2008 at 9:21pm |
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Nausheen that is probably the best explanation I have received, in YEARS....
Although I have serval position rgearding some of the Madhabs I do believe a sign of one who is trying to improve their Iman is that they make errors whether in lawand philosophy so that they may improve on their faith. Edited by Israfil - 22 June 2008 at 9:23pm |
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Nausheen
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Female Joined: 10 January 2001 Status: Offline Points: 4251 |
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Posted: 22 June 2008 at 7:45pm |
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Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir Rajeem,
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim,
Israfil, I hope muslim scholar are doing this - looking at the changing world and giving fatwas that allow the flexibility in Islam which makes it a religion for all nations, in all times. Although, when i say "giving fatwas" these days it has more negetive connotations than productive ones. I hope we can keep this aside for a while. When scholars do not agree on any one position, ( and here I mean real scholars, not just the so called ones), they "respect" the difference of opinion. A despensation is a blessing, and the best example of it is in hajj, where one cannot stick to any one Imam's way for entire hajj - were one to do so, it would become extremely difficult to complete all rites, when as it is Hajj is a very difficult form or worship in itself.
As for your question on to justify the restriction of women travelling ... well the answer to muslims is that following an imam is indespensable. We may know the rulings of one madhab and try to stay with it. If there is a dire situation where one cannot follow, then look for despensation in another madhab and take that position for that circumstance and there is no blame in this case. This should be so simply because we cannot, in a life time study the entire religion, and know all its rulings, and at the same time remain devoted to our daily routine, our own careers ad go about our daily life in the normal way. Being a scholar in Islam is a devotion in and of itself. Those who have set out in this line, it is required of them to devote their entire lives, only then they can understand all the rulings and all the exceptions ... and in some cases, with the changing world they may still fall short. So how can a comman man level up to those requirements?
For the general muslim public it suffices to know only that of religion which is sufficient for their safety in the hereafter, and leave the rest as scholar's business. Just like a normal civilian does not need to know all the laws of state - he needs to know only those which keeps him from breaking them. If he has a problem, or his rights are infringed, then there is a court, and there are lawyers who are professionally trained to know/learn all the laws - their pros and cons etc - just an analogy.
So when we follow a particular madhab, then the responsibility of "justification" is of the scholars not us. Our responsibility is only to follow.
You are correct to presume that all men are erroneous, and this is why we have not one but four madhab in sunni schools of thought, and one must respect all four positions. One is free to follow any of the four. One is also allowed to mix between the four opinions, as long as one does not do this as a habit merely to choose the easiest position of all the four.
However one must not presume in ones own qualification, and the devotion given to study religion that one will be able to correct the mistakes of the pious imams. We are not in a capacity to correct them - here is another analogy, if you do not know how to tailor a suit, you will depend on a person who is skilled in the job. If he made something that does not fit exactly to your size (ie fits only nearly), it is still not wise to want to make a suit yourself, rather settle with the fact that the tailor is not perfect, and go about your business in that suit - if the little defect in tailoring is not hurting your business.
The problem today is that we forget that imperfection also has degrees, and if our four imams were imperfect, their station with Allah is still better/higher than ours, because our wara(scroupulousness) and our taqwa (fear that generates obedience) is poor with respect to theirs.
As for your opinion on the working world - we must not forget that our sharia has limits. There is bending and flexibility possible within this limit and not beyond. As long as we mind this I dont think there should be a problem.
We cannot however compromise the sharia to please the world. eg, there is no difference of opinion on whether a woman should cover or not - so come what may, a woman who does not wear a hijab for business needs is in error.
On the issue of shaking hands again there is a difference of opinon, and one may settle to whatever opinion one can bring his/her heart to conformity with. Personally I would not want to shake hands with any man under any situation. Though this is a state I have arrived at in years. I would never dare think low of any muslim sister who shakes hands. Simply because I don't know the quality of her prayers, and the strenght of her iman. - and for that matter any muslim brother.
Edited by Nausheen - 22 June 2008 at 7:52pm |
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<font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR] |
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Israfil
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Joined: 08 September 2003 Status: Offline Points: 3984 |
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Posted: 21 June 2008 at 10:44am |
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I'm sorry but Muslim scholars must continue to look at the changing world and the professions women are doing. I guess I can only speak from experience because I've seen it with my own eyes, but the problem I'm having is twofold: Who decides what's best for the woman? The interpretation of Hadith by scholars (who are men) or God? Like the intellectuals before us like Al-Ghazzali, Ibn Sina, and Ibn rushd I'm of the opinion that God communicates us through 'divine providence' somehow and I believe if something is truly wrong God speaks to us in our conscious. Of course mines is the uorthodox approach but bringing all this back I'm basically saying how we justifiy the restriction of a woman's travel if its not even universally agreed upon? Especially if such is considered divine. Also, I am of the opinion that in the working world I believe exemptions must be made because a lot of professionals positions require the gender neutral "handshake." It appears we keep looking at it from the standpoint of sexuality when it is always not the case. A woman's job maybe on the line if she does not greet someone appropriately. For instance in japanese cultures you bow as a sign of humility and respect. In Western countries and others you shake hands. Now if you are closing a deal between your company and the foreign company (whatever country it is) aren't there exemptions that are made where in order to show a sign of respect and hospitality you greet strangers appropriately on for the purpose of work?
As you can see there are stark difference between the skaing of the hands in a work related setting than casual. I'm merely focusing on the work related setting. I just can't believe that in law, there is on exemptions.
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abuayisha
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Muslim Joined: 05 October 1999 Location: Los Angeles Status: Offline Points: 5105 |
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Posted: 20 June 2008 at 10:33pm |
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Chrysalis wrote: