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Did he betray me?

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Nausheen View Drop Down
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    Posted: 07 July 2008 at 9:55pm
Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir Rajeem,
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim,

SA, I began to respond to your comments, but realized I was repeating myself on what I said in former post. Thus decided to stop. Because either I am not very good in conveying concepts or this will take a while for you to absorb. Many points that you have raised above can be understood if you re-read my post above.

Wanted to say that the criterion of accepting or rejecting something should not be based on "hey that sounds very christian to me". Rather analyse the concept. I saw a similar comment from you on the book I refered to in another thread. It was recommended to me by my teacher (muslim) who said that 70% of the akhlaq taught in this book is close to islam. - So if one is a well read muslim will know how to seive things.
 
I am not a revert, yet I know there is no end to learning in Islam. Thus its my understanding that reverts do come accross many things which either they thought never existed in Islam, or they think its a misconception.
 
I have a fiqh teacher who is a revert. She told us her story that the very first month she fasted in ramadan she was so excited and happy, when she met women in the eid prayer and told them she fasted the "whole" month women looked at her in surprise. One of them pulled her aside to tell women cannot fast the whole month, and to this she thought this must be a cultural thing.  She said that was the point from where Allah opened her heart to learn more about the figh rulings and now she teaches.
 
I know reverts from this discussion board who could not accept Islam in entirity, and reverted back to christianity. 
There may be many who accept the new doctrines (which have become prevalent only about 200 years ago) and others who adhere to traditional islam.
 
I know reverts who are erudite scholars of this age, and reverts who are spiritual guides. - so it all depends on how much one is open to learning.
 
If you sincerely research this concept of madhabs, the truth is as plain as day. And if you are already convinced with what you presently know nothing I write can change your mind.
 
So may Allah be your guide.
 
<font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa

Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena

wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shasta'sAunt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 June 2008 at 9:38am
I was thinking about this a lot last night. It has really bothered me because the statement that all we have to do is follow and not question is so diametrically opposed to what I believe Islam teaches.
 
Sister Nausheen, when you say that I am mixing concepts I beg to differ. I see little difference in being told that all I have to do is believe Jesus died for my sins and Jesus will take responsibility for those sins, and being told that the madhabs will tell me what to do and all I have to do is follow, the sin if they are wrong falls on them.  Both take away personal responsibility and suppress freedom of thought.   
 
So many times I have heard Muslims say, indeed post here, that there are no middle men between man and Allah. That Islam teaches that we will be paid for our own deeds, good and bad. Yet, you are saying that the madhabs have taken the responsibility for our ignorance from us and by merely following them they will accept the payment for my sins if what they told me to do is wrong. Where is my responsibility in this equation? If Allah told all Muslims to seek knowledge, read, learn, be responsible for your deeds because you will be answering for them on the Day of Judgement, how can I claim ignorance and blind following as an excuse?
 
There is a huge difference between learning from someone, a scholar, who has more knowledge than you, the concept being that once you learn you will use that knowledge to make up your own mind, and allowing a scholar to tell you what and what not to do and you just doing what he says without verifying that what he has told you is correct. Especially since we have the means and the ability: intelligence and common sense, to verify its validity.
 
Perhaps I am rejecting the madhabs, I am certain I am rejecting the notion that I can choose to blindly follow someone yet not be held responsible for that choice if what they tell me is incorrect. I have still made the choice of blind obedience when I could have just as easily chosen to research and verify.
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chrysalis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 June 2008 at 4:45am
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt Shasta'sAunt wrote:

17:36 (O man), follow not that whereof thou hast no knowledge. Lo! the hearing and the sight and the heart--of each of these it will be asked.  
 
I would say that The Holy Quran is telling us that it is our responsibility NOT to blindly follow anyone, unless we are knowledgeable about what
 
There is also a Sahih Hadith that says that a muslim should not believe/accept anything (news/rumour) immediately on hearing unless they have confirmed its authencity or reliability. . . I'd say that goes especially for religion.
 
 
 
 


Edited by Chrysalis - 28 June 2008 at 4:45am
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shasta'sAunt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 June 2008 at 7:09pm
"In the 3-4 century AH Some knowledgeable scholars lifted the burden of individual ijtihad from the shoulders of majority in the ummah, by forming schools of thought."
 
Sister, I am not sure where Allah gave these men the right to take individual ijtihad from anyone's shoulders when The Quran made it very clear that each individual is responsible for their own actions.
 
Before the madhabs existed Muslims studied and learned and gained knowledge of their own accord. yes, they may have asked questions of someone who had more knowledge, but that person did not make up their minds for them. Nor were they dissuaded from searching and reasoning on their own.  During this period Islam and Muslims flourished in the sciences, literature, mathematics, critical thinking. Muslims were encouraged to have their own thoughts, not restricted within the limitations of those who thought for them.
 
To say that the only thing that is new is a challenge to the madhabs is incorrect, as the madhabs themselves are an innovation that did not exist at the time of The Prophet, nor is there mention of them in The Quran.
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nausheen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 June 2008 at 12:20am
Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir Rajeem,
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim,

SA, you have mixed a few concepts together.

1. Following a lay person and following a scholar is not the same thing.
 
2. We are not talking about following a whole new religion. Nor are there any disagreements regarding the essentials of religion.
The matter is not about God is or is not. Or If there is one god or onethousand and one. Or which prophet should be followed. Or one should face the Kaba or something else in prayer .... about the essentials of religion if anyone differes in opinion he is a separate sect, and he should not be followed.
 
In minor issues where there is room for a difference of opinion, like how long should the beard be, how high should the trousers be, whether your hands should be folded on the chest or the belly button during the intention of prayer, should you or should you not wipe on the socks .... and the list is pretty long.
 
If we don't have scholars, everyone will be giving out fatwas, and there will be chaos. Well, we do see this phenomenon taking predominance in our times,  but the majority of ummah still stays with the madhabs.
Those who refute the madhabs are very few as compared to the total muslim population - and I must add - but  they have a loud voice.
 
From the time of the Sahabas, if people were unsure about any such issues, they used one of the following courses, a) they asked someone who was known to be knowledgeable in the matter, b) they searched the issue themselves.
 
Depending on this knowledgeable scholar was called taqleed. Searching the matter by oneself is called Ijtihad.
 
Both methods have been valid till date. 
 
3. Not following a scholar is a must for a person who is eligible to do his own ijtiahd.
 
4. One who does not have enough knowledge and training to do his own ijtihad, his taqleed should be rejected. If you do not, your responsible for your actions.
 
5. If you do not have enough knowledge and training to do your own ijtihad, but you still follow only your own ijtihad, it is no different from following the taqleed of another who does not have knowledge (case 4). Again you will be responsible for your actions.
 
In the 3-4 century AH Some knowledgeable scholars lifted the burden of individual ijtihad from the shoulders of majority in the ummah, by forming schools of thought.
Majority of the muslim ummah went with them, because that made matters easy, and allowed the non-ulema to devote on other life issues.
 
However the process of researching the deen and refinging the veiws on the minor issues did not stop. In fact it is going on untill today. If any two people are to study sincerely and devotedly the proofs on certain matter they are going to arrive at difference of opinion, because there are matters in our religion where there is room for this.
The only thing is, when a person does a sincere and devoted research on certain matters, he realises that he is inclined to a certain position, although the position of the other sincere and devoted researcher cannot be rejected altogether.
 
Those who reject the madhabs altogether are not sincere and devoted in their research, rather quite the opposite of it.
 
You have said:  "When you are not knowledgeable about what they are saying do not follow them"
 
If YOU are not knowledgeable about what the four Imams  are saying you don't know if they are correct or not. The better and more cautious way is to "find out what they are saying". They did not exist till the 3rd century AH does not mean whatever they are saying is wrong. This argument is faulty in its essence.
 
Because even when schools of thought did not exist, there were scholars, and people asked them for guidance. Omar Ibn al-khattab is know to have been giving fatwas.
People did ask Ibn Abbas regarding interpretations of ayah.
Muadh bin Jabal was asked by people of yemen to teach them Islam - people did depend on others to teach them - this practice is as old as Islam.
 
Only thing that is new, is a challenge on madhabs. This challenging of the credibility of scholars and the madhabs is a fitna of our times. Worse still is that it is thrown by people who know the least about these Imams.  And the madhabs came into existence in the 3-4 AH means they have been around for about 1000 years, but this particular type of challenging of the madhabs is as new as the oil money of middle east.
 
Those who informed you that madhabs are wrong have attempted to misguide you.
 
It is one of the signs of the end of times that which is wrong will appear correct and that which is correct will appear wrong - this is happening to many people.
 
If you do wish to research the matter here is a good book.
 
 
 


Edited by Nausheen - 27 June 2008 at 12:31am
<font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa

Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena

wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
[/COLOR]
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shasta'sAunt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 June 2008 at 10:43am
17:36 (O man), follow not that whereof thou hast no knowledge. Lo! the hearing and the sight and the heart--of each of these it will be asked.  
 
I would say that The Holy Quran is telling us that it is our responsibility NOT to blindly follow anyone, unless we are knowledgeable about what they are saying, because we will be asked about this on the Day of Judgement.
 
The four madhabs did not exist at the time of The Prophet, nor at the time of the sahaba, not until about  two hundred years after the death of The Prophet in the third century of Islam.
 
As a former Christian I find that any talk of blind following makes me extremely uncomfortable. Imams, scholars, even The Prophets were just men. To raise any man to a point where you give him blind obedience without any question is a dangerous path. That is how The Prophet Jesus became divine, and how other religions have gone wrong.
 
Allah has stated numerous times in The Quran that we should seek knowledge, that we alone are responsible for our actions, and from the Ayat above that we should not blindly follow.  Why would any Muslim still choose to do so?


Edited by Shasta'sAunt - 24 June 2008 at 10:44am
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nausheen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 June 2008 at 8:41pm
Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir Rajeem,
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim,

If one is to follow those who have no knowledge, or those who are professing things that are contrary to sharia, then some of the above quotes apply. Fortunately, or unfortunately we were discussing the four sunni Imam, who are far from the qualifications of these people.

The basis of our religion is ittiba. Because Allah has said that if any want to reach Allah through any route except the following of Rasul sallallahu alaihe wasalla, their efforts will be rejected - thus Allah has raised his (sallallahu alaihe wasallam) rank by making him the door to His nearness. Further, in a hadith it is mentioned that prphet sallallahu alaihe wasallam said that his heirs are the ulema from his umma.
 
In another hadith it is said that if one does a bad deed and others follow, the punishment of the one who initiated the bad deed is sum of punishments of all those who followed him. On the other hand, one who leads or guides others to way of Allah, his reward is the sum of rewards of all those who follow. This can be further emphasised by the hadith which says that teaching an act of sunna is sadqa-e-jariya, ie a charity the reward of which one will continue to reap as long as people continue to act on his teachings.
 
and Allah knows best.
 
 
<font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa

Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena

wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
[/COLOR]
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shasta'sAunt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 June 2008 at 3:07pm
I am curious as to which madhab the Holy Prophet followed?
 
"So when we follow a particular madhab, then the responsibility of "justification" is of the scholars not us. Our responsibility is only to follow."
 
I am also curious as to the daleel of this statement. Is it in The Quran or a Hadith?
 
39:17 Those who eschew Evil,- and fall not into its worship,- and turn to Allah (in repentance),- for them is Good News: so announce the Good News to My Servants,-
 
39:18 Those who listen to the Word, and follow the best (meaning) in it: those are the ones whom Allah has guided, and those are the ones endued with understanding.
 
17:36 (O man), follow not that whereof thou hast no knowledge. Lo! the hearing and the sight and the heart--of each of these it will be asked.  
 
2:166 Then would those who are followed clear themselves of those who follow (them) : They would see the penalty, and all relations between them would be cut off.
 
 
 

 


Edited by Shasta'sAunt - 23 June 2008 at 3:30pm
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
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