The Great Jihad ? |
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myahya
Senior Member Joined: 06 February 2008 Status: Offline Points: 222 |
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Posted: 13 November 2008 at 7:21am |
Ron: And then, much later and after it is too late for the idolators to
correct their behaviour, then he roasts them in Hell for
eternity. Only
one of His prophet (Nuh (as)) was trying to convince them to correct their
behavior for about 1000 years. After him so many prophets with miracles and
clear evidences and reasons tried in different ways but those who did not want to
change did not, that was that. However, who has told you that in the other
world all of the idolators will be necessarily in Hell for eternity? As much as
I know from Islamic opinion, eternity is not for all of those in Hell. Look, if He really doesn't want people worshipping idols, all He has to
do is to make every idol burst into flames or melt into a puddle of magma the
moment anyone tries to worship it. It wouldn't take long before people
got the message. It would also be irrefutable, reproducible, scientific
evidence that God exists. As I've said before, if God really cared
whether we believed in Him or not, He could do a much, much better job at
getting His message out. I
would say in such a case God had to destruct everything as people has worshiped
everything from moon, sun and human to animals and other things. |
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Ron Webb
Senior Member Male atheist Joined: 30 January 2008 Location: Ottawa, Canada Status: Offline Points: 2467 |
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And then, much later and after it is too late for the idolators to correct their behaviour, then he roasts them in Hell for eternity. Look, if He really doesn't want people worshipping idols, all He has to do is to make every idol burst into flames or melt into a puddle of magma the moment anyone tries to worship it. It wouldn't take long before people got the message. It would also be irrefutable, reproducible, scientific evidence that God exists. As I've said before, if God really cared whether we believed in Him or not, He could do a much, much better job at getting His message out. |
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Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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myahya
Senior Member Joined: 06 February 2008 Status: Offline Points: 222 |
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Ron: Young children are very much like prisoners of their parents. They are given very little freedom at first, and they are under constant surveillance. And yes, they may be punished if they disobey. Such
a young child is likely to obey only out of fear of punishment (which itself is
because of their lack of understanding as you also said), but loving parents do
not punish to benefit from it nor to feel better. I would simply remind her of the real
reasons why her behaviour was bad (e.g., if you don't eat your peas you
won't be healthy), and leave it at that. In
Monotheistic religions, as an example, God simply reminds people to not worship
pieces of stones carved by human. He reminds them (through His prophets) that the stones are not alive and can not even
defend themselves so it is a waste of time worshiping them. This is a clear simple
real reason, isn�t it? It seems to me that God continues to treat people as children. Through
His last prophet, He has completed what people need to grow otherwise He would not send His last prophet. However, in contrast to this accomplishment, it
seems many people continue to refuse the truth childishly. Worse, actually, because to be effective, penalties must be given as
soon as possible after the offense in order to change behaviour. Edited by myahya - 12 November 2008 at 8:16am |
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Ron Webb
Senior Member Male atheist Joined: 30 January 2008 Location: Ottawa, Canada Status: Offline Points: 2467 |
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Young children are very much like prisoners of their parents. They are given very little freedom at first, and they are under constant surveillance. And yes, they may be punished if they disobey.
We need to treat them that way because as much as we love them, we know that they cannot always be trusted. They have not yet learned to control their feelings or think long-term. Moreover, they often do not understand the risks involved in certain seemingly innocuous behaviours. So we set up clear (but often arbitrary) rules and penalties (e.g., "eat your peas or you don't get dessert"), easily understood and enforced.
Later,as our children mature and begin doing the right things because they are right instead of out of fear of getting caught, those arbitrary rules are dropped. I would not consider punishing my adult daughter for something, even if I could. I would simply remind her of the real reasons why her behaviour was bad (e.g., if you don't eat your peas you won't be healthy), and leave it at that. And I would love her just as much, whether she changed her behaviour or not, because that's what love is.
It seems to me that God continues to treat people as children. Worse, actually, because to be effective, penalties must be given as soon as possible after the offense in order to change behaviour. Telling my young daughter that she must eat her peas or I will punish her "eventually" would be worse than useless.
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Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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myahya
Senior Member Joined: 06 February 2008 Status: Offline Points: 222 |
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Ron: I agree, but what about
the converse? -- that a God who offers heaven in exchange for worship is a God
of traders; and a God who threatens punishment for disobedience is a God of
prisoners. To me, a true God would extend his grace to all people as
free men, unconditionally. It has always seemed to me that all the
threats and bribes in the Holy Scriptures of the monotheistic religions are
demeaning to the very concept of a loving God.
I
agree with God�s justice discussion that Hasan talked about. Let me express my
view in this way: First of all, God has extended and is extending in all
moments his grace to all people. In this world all blessings are the same from
his prophets to people who does not worship him to people who even has killed
his prophets! ALL people are using the same blessings, the same sun, earth,
air, water, foods, life and so on. But on the last day they will see the
consequences of their own life and acts. On
the other hand, let�s have a different view than justice for a moment. To me as
a Muslim, Allah s.w.t. does not exchange anything for worship. In Islam, the
relationship is totally different from what you think. In Islamic view God does
not need human act of worship nor does He benefit from it nor does He suffer
from human disobedience. In this ideology, God is absolutely free of needs. Therefore,
the offer of heaven is not in exchange of anything being beneficial for Him but
for us. In monotheistic religions God is the most merciful with the
most love towards human being. Edited by myahya - 11 November 2008 at 2:02am |
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Gulliver
Senior Member Joined: 12 September 2008 Status: Offline Points: 621 |
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PS
Where's Ron the adultress ? Am in the mood for a good stoning ;-) lol
I am missing a lot of threads I think. Posts not coming to my inbox, so am getting lost. Nothing new in that :-)
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Gulliver
Senior Member Joined: 12 September 2008 Status: Offline Points: 621 |
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"Then second part is their own responsibility for the course that person follows."
Yes, I do see what you are trying to convey Hasan, and can understand and agree with most of it. It's this thing about responsibility that I wonder about. And it's naieve, and ignorant, to say that people in certain situations simply 'make excuses' and go on to behave in a bad way anyway. People need, use 'crutches' till they are healed and able to walk again by themselves. If they need crutches - they are not well. You have said yourself that God, as All Knower, knows and there will be understanding and fair judgement. That's all I am trying to say. That we do not know what understanding and fair judgement is - when we are talking of God. Yet we assume all 'murderers' are gonna burn in hell. It's all this God of eternal burning in hell I find very difficult to believe. Threatening people out of hell into heaven. Sounds more like the lying Lucifer to me. IF God is infinite - and infinite in mercy and compassion; then to have so many of his creatures bound for the hellfire means God's compassion and mercy are finite, and god really isn't much of a god. If Hitler could exist as every sub atomic particle that ever has or will exist - and suffer beyond imagination as each and every particle of all that exists, for trillions and trillions and zillions of years, and that was just the beginning. Would that be enough for him. If God's mercy and compassion are infinite - then that mercy and compassion must be infinitely extended to all - for ever. What blinds man to mercy and compassion ? Fear ? I am just pondering the nature of this God Hasan. Even Muhammad agonised over his 'ummah' who would go to 'hell' ? We owe it to God, IF God exists ;-) - to explore God's infinite Goodness. And it's the role of the 'shaitan' to make us look everywhere else - but to that great Goodness, which is ultimately what Heaven is, will be. That's what the story of Job was partly about. Satan was allowed to try Job and make him fearful and despairing of God's goodness.
I don't know what 'God's spirit' - that man is partly made of, as well as clay, really is, Hasan. I am not saying it's divine, that man is divine. But it's naieve too to suggest that it does not imply man to have a far higher dignity, and destiny, than many people might seem to suggest, believe. For me it's about perspective. In realising and understanding the true dignity and calling of the human being - we may come to desire and act more in accordance with that calling and destiny - to show the true 'face' of God to the world - mercy and compassion. Love heals. And I am not talking aiery fairy BS kind of 'love'. To say we are made partly of 'God's spirit' is not that different from the bible saying we are 'made in the image of God'. Man has something of his/her nature that has infinite capacity - as God is infinite. I believe that capacity, image in which we are made - is the capacity to love. I believe we will be judged on how we have loved in this world - and we will judge our selves in the clearer knowledge and love of God, when we 'meet' God through the veil.
Because, 'God is Love'.
Al-wadud. Al-rahman. Al-rahim.
I have spoken and my word is true. ;-) lol
I think that when you have priests, scholars, imams etc interpreting the scriptures for the rest of us, telling us what God's nature is - that can be difficult. Not always - sometimes. We place them in a position of power in so doing - and by the nature of being human - that power is often abused - used, to control and dominate others through fear. Intentionally or not. Even they have their baggage, and their understandings of God/scriputres are filtered through that too. As with all of us. They rationalise and justify why everyone, but themselves, are deserving of hell - gonna burn in hell.
Then there are those who see and know they may be truly deserving of 'hell' - but have come to know a God of real compassion, mercy and love. They have known a God who wishes to save from 'hell' - and saves them from that place, even though they may be most deserving of it; and they seek to know and have known that God who is willing and capable of 'saving' them, and in doing that - willing and capable of 'saving' all others too. Have others know this God through love, not fear. "Perfect love casts out all fear........... " 'cept' the 'holy fear' which is the fear of offending/hurting self, other and God.
Self knowledge is a sure path to God. If we would know God, we must also know our selves - in whose image we are made - that 'God's spirit'.
I am not advocating a big love in Hasan. No consequences or punishments for sin etc. No. There has to be justice and restoration of harmony/balance. I just wonder what those consequences/punishments are in relation to the infinite mercy and compassion of Allah. Are they 'eternal'.
Just thoughts. I am not pushing anything one way or another. Edited by Gulliver - 11 November 2008 at 1:20am |
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honeto
Senior Member Male Islam Joined: 20 March 2008 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 2487 |
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Hi Gilliver,
I completely understand what you are saying. I hope you understand what I and trying to convey. Someone abusing someone else and that person becoming bad is two part. One, what others did to him, for which they will recieve a just consideration/compensation from the one who knows all. Then second part is their own responsibility for the course that person follows. For that we need the guidance which is provided by God. If such a person is sane, and able to achieve other things in life, he/she must be able to differentiate between right from wrong with that guidance.
People to stop living if they loose sight or hearing or a vital organ. We all go through ups and downs in life, should that give us excuse for leaving our obligations toward God and His creations? If we do, we loose.
The crutches of excuses don't take us too far toward success. God will hold us responsible for our intentions besides our actions. You would think that perheps the abused somehow will not be fairly understood or judged. That would be mare underestimating the power and degree of detail to Judgement of the All Knower, God Almighty.
And to think that somehow God did not percieve these injustices and acts we vitness for me is simply to deny Him as God or just being nieve.
Let me be also clear about what you said regarding " man having God's spirit" that in my belief and understanding never can I assume that somhow I, you, Bush, Osama or Hitler have God's spirit and are part devine. That would be a very misdirected belief.
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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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