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    Posted: 28 March 2010 at 9:08pm
Salam ~ Nur_Ilahi

I JUST WANTED TO SAY THATS THE CUTEST LIL PICTURE YA GOT THERE !
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Originally posted by _ALI_ _ALI_ wrote:

Salam JOUBERAR
Your statements=bold
By the way I said scientist is wrong not science

Opinions of Science and scientists is the same. It's not like science says that Earth is round and scientists say that the Earth is flat.
according to your speculation that the global flood was a localised flood .
Have you even read my posts? I have said again and again that I do not know whether the flood was localized or not. In fact, In my previous post, I said that let us assume that the flood was global. Now can you tell us why Bible contradicts Science?
Where does the bible contradict science is it simply cos the Quran could specify the date that flood occured while the bible can specify it then it is a contradiction but not when the Quran can specify it.
I am not sure what you mean here. Can you elaborate? And since Bible gives a date of global flood in which many noted civilizations were alive, that is why it contradicts science. Isn't that so simple to understand? Now Quran doesn't give a date so how can it contradict science here?
The Quran in Surah 11:42 & 43 says that one of the sons of Noah refused to go into the Ark and was drowned in the flood, while the Bible says that all three sons of Noah went into the Ark with him and were saved from the flood,while the Bible says that all three sons of Noah went into the Ark with him and were saved from the flood (Genesis 7:7)
So you're saying here that since Quran contradicts Bible, it is wrong. And I am saying here that since Bible contradicts Quran, Bible is wrong.
In Surah 11:44 the Quran says that the Ark came to rest on top of
mount Judi, While the Bible says that it was Mount Ararat (Genesis 8:4)

You are quoting stuff to strengthen my belief that Bible is wrong because it contradicts Quran.
This clearly show you authentacity of the bible in comparison with the Quran's mangled stories.This shows it is global but it seems to me that you are confused about the Quran statements that you can not give me the exact answer if the flood was local or global.
I have given you a very clear answer again and again and the answer is simply : I don't know. I am not confused about the statements of Quran, I'm merely proving that those statements do not specify whether the flood was global or not. But As I said, let us assume that the flood was global, Now can you tell me why Bible contradicts science instead of going in circles again and again and dodging the main question?
Gen 7:5 And Noah did according unto all that Jehovah commanded him.

Gen 7:6 And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.

Gen 7:7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.

Gen 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of birds, and of everything that creepeth upon the ground,

Gen 7:9 there went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, male and female, as God commanded Noah.

Gen 7:10 And it came to pass after the seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

Gen 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

Gen 7:12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

Gen 7:13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

Gen 7:14 they, and every beast after its kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after its kind, and every bird after its kind, every bird of every sort.

Gen 7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh wherein is the breath of life.

Gen 7:16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God commanded him: and Jehovah shut him in.

Gen 7:17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lifted up above the earth.

Gen 7:18 And the waters prevailed, and increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.

Gen 7:19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high mountains that were under the whole heaven were covered.

Gen 7:20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

Gen 7:21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both birds, and cattle, and beasts, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

Gen 7:22 all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, of all that was on the dry land, died.

Gen 7:23 And every living thing was destroyed that was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and creeping things, and birds of the heavens; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only was left, and they that were with him in the ark.

Gen 7:24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth a hundred and fifty days.

Yes I completely agree that according to the Bible, the flood was global. According to the Quran, the flood can be local or global. It is irrelevant. The main point is, which you have continuously dodged in our previous discussion and will dodge in the next, that Bible specifies when that global incidence took place. At that time, there were numerous civilizations present according to science. Now who should I believe? Either the science and Quran is wrong and Bible is right or either the Bible is wrong and science and Quran is right. You tell me
Peace
 
Scientist already proofed it that the flood was global go and look at the websites.
 
Here is one source that you can do some research on.
 
Scientific Evidence for a Worldwide Flood
Part Four of a Five-Part Series on The Age of the Earth.

 

Two Vastly Different World Views, with Vastly Different Conclusions:
Let's not kid ourselves.  What this is all about is whether or not the Old Testament book of Genesis (along with the rest of the Old Testament, and the New Testament) is an accurate account of what happened around 4600 years ago with regard to a worldwide flood, and about 6000 years ago, with regard to Creation itself.

Was virtually all of the sedimentary strata laid down by a single Worldwide Deluge in a short amount of time, or is the evolutionary scenario of slow change, acting over eons of T-I-M-E, and the associated Geological Time Chart (with its millions and millions of years) a more accurate account of Earth history?

It's also about God's future judgment of mankind.  That's because Jesus Christ, Himself, related the Great Flood of Noah's day to His own return to earth to reign over it and the people in it.  See Luke 17:20-27, 19:11-27; John 5:22-23, 12:32, and Rev. 20:4-15.

Let's Look at the Evidence:
The following are 18 Evidences of either massive flooding and erosion, extremely rapid layering of strata, or direct evidence of a Worldwide Flood.  Such evidences are found in numerous places on virtually every Continent.  

Polystrate Fossils: 
One of the strongest pieces of evidence for a worldwide flood is the existence of what Rupke termed "polystrate fossils."  Such fossils are found all over the world.  They usually consist of fossil  trees that were buried upright, and which often traverse multiple  layers of strata such as sandstone, limestone, shale, and even coal beds. 1,2,3,4  They range in size from small rootlets to trees over 80 feet long. 3
   Sometimes they are oblique in relation to the surrounding strata, but more often they are perpendicular to it.  For example, at Joggins, Nova Scotia, polystrate  tree (and root) fossils are found at various intervals throughout roughly 2,500 feet of strata. Many of these are from 10-20 feet  long,  5,6 and, at least  one was 40 feet long. 5,6,7  

Very few of these upright fossil trees have attached roots, and only about 1 in 50 8  have both roots and rootlets attached.  Such trees, and their -- more often than not -- missing roots, are discussed in much more detail in  The "Fossil Forests" of Nova Scotia. 9  Likewise, many (if not most) of the large, fragmented, and  broken-off  Stigmaria roots are also missing their rootlets.

Many of these roots and rootlets, are also buried individually. 9  This strongly  suggests that these trees did not grow in the same places where they were buried, but rather were  uprooted and re-deposited there.  

Similar circumstances occur at various other places in Nova Scotia, as well as in the United States, England, Germany, and France.  Another place where large tree stumps are preserved without their roots attached is  Axel Heiberg 10,11 Island in Northern Canada.

And although there is much data on buried trees in the geological literature, most of it is over 100 years old, and difficult to access.  One of the few articles on this subject was by Rupke, and in it he comments that:

�Personally, I am of the opinion that the polystrate fossils  constitute a crucial phenomenon  both to the actuality and the mechanism of cataclysmic deposition.  Curiously  a  paper on  polystrate fossils appears to be a  'black swan�  in geological literature.  Antecedent to this synopsis a systematic discussion of  the relevant  phenomena was never published.  However, geologists must have been informed about these fossils.  In view of this it seems unintelligible that uniformitarianism has kept its dominant position.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote _ALI_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 March 2010 at 1:06am
Salam JOUBERAR
Your statements=bold
By the way I said scientist is wrong not science

Opinions of Science and scientists is the same. It's not like science says that Earth is round and scientists say that the Earth is flat.
according to your speculation that the global flood was a localised flood .
Have you even read my posts? I have said again and again that I do not know whether the flood was localized or not. In fact, In my previous post, I said that let us assume that the flood was global. Now can you tell us why Bible contradicts Science?
Where does the bible contradict science is it simply cos the Quran could specify the date that flood occured while the bible can specify it then it is a contradiction but not when the Quran can specify it.
I am not sure what you mean here. Can you elaborate? And since Bible gives a date of global flood in which many noted civilizations were alive, that is why it contradicts science. Isn't that so simple to understand? Now Quran doesn't give a date so how can it contradict science here?
The Quran in Surah 11:42 & 43 says that one of the sons of Noah refused to go into the Ark and was drowned in the flood, while the Bible says that all three sons of Noah went into the Ark with him and were saved from the flood,while the Bible says that all three sons of Noah went into the Ark with him and were saved from the flood (Genesis 7:7)
So you're saying here that since Quran contradicts Bible, it is wrong. And I am saying here that since Bible contradicts Quran, Bible is wrong.
In Surah 11:44 the Quran says that the Ark came to rest on top of
mount Judi, While the Bible says that it was Mount Ararat (Genesis 8:4)

You are quoting stuff to strengthen my belief that Bible is wrong because it contradicts Quran.
This clearly show you authentacity of the bible in comparison with the Quran's mangled stories.This shows it is global but it seems to me that you are confused about the Quran statements that you can not give me the exact answer if the flood was local or global.
I have given you a very clear answer again and again and the answer is simply : I don't know. I am not confused about the statements of Quran, I'm merely proving that those statements do not specify whether the flood was global or not. But As I said, let us assume that the flood was global, Now can you tell me why Bible contradicts science instead of going in circles again and again and dodging the main question?
Gen 7:5 And Noah did according unto all that Jehovah commanded him.

Gen 7:6 And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.

Gen 7:7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.

Gen 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of birds, and of everything that creepeth upon the ground,

Gen 7:9 there went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, male and female, as God commanded Noah.

Gen 7:10 And it came to pass after the seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

Gen 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

Gen 7:12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

Gen 7:13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

Gen 7:14 they, and every beast after its kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after its kind, and every bird after its kind, every bird of every sort.

Gen 7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh wherein is the breath of life.

Gen 7:16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God commanded him: and Jehovah shut him in.

Gen 7:17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lifted up above the earth.

Gen 7:18 And the waters prevailed, and increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.

Gen 7:19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high mountains that were under the whole heaven were covered.

Gen 7:20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

Gen 7:21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both birds, and cattle, and beasts, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

Gen 7:22 all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, of all that was on the dry land, died.

Gen 7:23 And every living thing was destroyed that was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and creeping things, and birds of the heavens; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only was left, and they that were with him in the ark.

Gen 7:24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth a hundred and fifty days.

Yes I completely agree that according to the Bible, the flood was global. According to the Quran, the flood can be local or global. It is irrelevant. The main point is, which you have continuously dodged in our previous discussion and will dodge in the next, that Bible specifies when that global incidence took place. At that time, there were numerous civilizations present according to science. Now who should I believe? Either the science and Quran is wrong and Bible is right or either the Bible is wrong and science and Quran is right. You tell me
Peace
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JOUBERAR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 March 2010 at 7:35am
Originally posted by _ALI_ _ALI_ wrote:

Salam Jouberar
Your post=bold
ALI I AM SURE THE SCIENCTIST IS WRONG AND GOD IS RIGHT.

So science is wrong and Bible is right. And plants were created before the sun, sun was created after the Earth, and Earth was created in six days. I suppose these are all "facts" according to you?
Ali here is your is post and you say you never said that or are only refering to the Quran.
Read the top of my post you are quoting. All of it is a reply to the allegation that Quran has been copied from the Bible. Instead of giving my own reply, I quoted a scholar and gave a link. According to him (not me), the flood was localized. According to some other scholars, the flood was not localized. So I was right that I never said that the flood was localized or universal.
The water had taken hundred and fifty days to go down thats very long for a localized flood my friend
Where did you get the idea that water had taken a hundred and fifty days to clear up? Was it the Bible? Well, if we are all assuming that Bible is historically authentic, then you and the Bible is right and me, Quran and science is wrong. But we are not assuming that Bible is historically authentic. First you have to prove that Bible is authentic then quote it. And that prove has to be on the basis of science (which you ironically reject).
I think the authors of the Quran got it all wrong like Noah's "fourth son" who drowned in the flood
First off, Quran, unlike the Bible, has only one Author. And again you are assuming the Bible to be right here.
An area of criticism applied by Muslim apologists against the Holy Bible and in support of the Quran is the issue of Noah's flood. Following the example set by Dr. Maurice Bucaille in his book, The Bible, the Qur'an & Science, Muslims assert that whereas the Holy Bible wrongly teaches a universal flood the Quran however, in agreement with both modern science and archeology, affirms that the flood during Noah's time was a local event.
Well, even if we assume that Noah's flood was global, Quran does not give a date. So archeologists have no problem if we say that there was a global or a local flood at any time in history, hence both of the interpretations of Quran do not contradict with science. However, Bible gives us the date of that global flood, in which many civilizations of the world existed. Hence, Bible contradicts science.
Unfortunately, many who are not familiar with the Quran or the early Islamic writings are left with the impression that the Quran inarguably teaches that the flood of Noah's day was merely a local event.
I've said it before, Quran neither says that it was global nor does it confirm that it was local. You are missing the key point here which is that Quran does not give us a date and the Bible does, which contradicts science.
For example, the Quran never says that the flood affected only the people living within close proximity to Noah and his family.
:). So Quran doesn't say that flood only destroyed the people of Noah, hence the flood destroyed everyone. Now Quran tells us many tales about nations who were destroyed by God. The people of Aad were punished by thunder and lightning and were destroyed. God doesn't say that only those guys were destroyed, does that mean that everyone on Earth got killed? Furthermore, Quran tells us a story about a garden which was destroyed to punish a his owner. But it doesn't say that only that garden was destroyed, does that mean that every garden on Earth was also destroyed?
Furthermore, there are passages in the Quran where a universal flood is clearly implied, if not explicitly stated. In fact, these very same passages are appealed to by Muslim writers, such as al-Tabari, to support the fact that the flood was universal.
Like I said before, some scholars say that flood was universal. Tabari must be one of them.
"At length, behold! There came Our Command, and the fountains of the earth gushed forth! We said: `Embark therein, of each two, male and female, and your family- except those against whom the Word has already gone forth,- and the believers.' But only a few believed with him." S. 11:40

"Then the word went forth: `O earth! Swallow up thy water, and O sky! withhold (thy rain)! And the water abated, and the matter was ended. The Ark rested on Mount Judi, and the word went forth: `Away with those who do wrong!'" S. 11:44.

The verses you quoted don't explicitly say that the entire Earth was submerged. The thing is, Quran is written in a very poetic fashion hence if God tells Earth to "swallow up your water" it does not mean that "you were entirely covered with water and now swallow it" :).
I've just argued that Quran doesn't explicitly say that the entire Earth was submerged. But suppose if I agree that the Earth was submerged, still, Quran will not contradict science. That is because Quran does not tell us when the flood occurred, but the Bible does. So let's assume for the sake of argument and conciliation that the whole Earth was submerged. Now explain to me, why does Bible contradict science?
Peace
 
By the way I said scientist is wrong not science according to your speculation that the global flood was a localised flood .
 
 Where does the bible contradict science is it simply cos the Quran could specify the date that flood occured while the bible can specify it then it is a contradiction but not when the Quran can specify it.
 

The Quran in Surah 11:42 & 43 says that one of the sons of Noah refused to go into the Ark and was drowned in the flood, while the Bible says that all three sons of Noah went into the Ark with him and were saved from the flood,while the Bible says that all three sons of Noah went into the Ark with him and were saved from the flood (Genesis 7:7).


Surah 11:42 I wonder who removed this from the bible.

And it moved on with them amid waves like mountains; and Nuh called out to his son, and he was aloof: "O my son! embark with us and be not with the unbelievers.

He said: "I will betake myself for refuge to a mountain that shall protect me from the water."

Nuh said: "There is no protector today from Allah's punishment but He Who has mercy; and a wave intervened between them, so he was of the drowned."

says that one of the sons of Noah refused to go into the Ark and was drowned in the flood, while the Bible says that all three sons of Noah went into the Ark with him and were saved from the flood (Genesis 7:7).
 
In Surah 11:44 the Quran says that the Ark came to rest on top of
mount Judi, While the Bible says that it was Mount Ararat (Genesis 8:4).
 
This clearly show you authentacity of the bible in comparison with the Quran's mangled stories.This shows it is global but it seems to me that you are confused about the Quran statements that you can not give me the exact answer if the flood was local or global.

Gen 7:5 And Noah did according unto all that Jehovah commanded him.

Gen 7:6 And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.

Gen 7:7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.

Gen 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of birds, and of everything that creepeth upon the ground,

Gen 7:9 there went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, male and female, as God commanded Noah.

Gen 7:10 And it came to pass after the seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

Gen 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

Gen 7:12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

Gen 7:13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

Gen 7:14 they, and every beast after its kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after its kind, and every bird after its kind, every bird of every sort.

Gen 7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh wherein is the breath of life.

Gen 7:16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God commanded him: and Jehovah shut him in.

Gen 7:17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lifted up above the earth.

Gen 7:18 And the waters prevailed, and increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.

Gen 7:19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high mountains that were under the whole heaven were covered.

Gen 7:20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

Gen 7:21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both birds, and cattle, and beasts, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

Gen 7:22 all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, of all that was on the dry land, died.

Gen 7:23 And every living thing was destroyed that was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and creeping things, and birds of the heavens; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only was left, and they that were with him in the ark.

Gen 7:24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth a hundred and fifty days.



Edited by JOUBERAR - 08 March 2010 at 7:36am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Douggg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 March 2010 at 2:54pm
Originally posted by robin robin wrote:

How would you answer the question:

 

What is a Christian according to the teachings of Jesus Christ as recorded in The Holy Bible?



A Christian is someone who is a new creation "in Christ".   A Christian is someone who has been born again by the Holy Spirit.    If a person has not been born again and has not the Holy Spirit, that person is not of Christ .. i.e. not a Christian.  

Romans 3:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

When Jesus entered this world, how was he born, how was that facilitated?

Matthew 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Jesus's birth came by the Holy Spirit, and a Christian is someone who has been borne again by the Holy Spirit, a new creation "in Christ". 


Doug L.


Edited by Douggg - 07 March 2010 at 2:56pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote _ALI_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 March 2010 at 3:23am
Salam Jouberar
Your post=bold
ALI I AM SURE THE SCIENCTIST IS WRONG AND GOD IS RIGHT.

So science is wrong and Bible is right. And plants were created before the sun, sun was created after the Earth, and Earth was created in six days. I suppose these are all "facts" according to you?
Ali here is your is post and you say you never said that or are only refering to the Quran.
Read the top of my post you are quoting. All of it is a reply to the allegation that Quran has been copied from the Bible. Instead of giving my own reply, I quoted a scholar and gave a link. According to him (not me), the flood was localized. According to some other scholars, the flood was not localized. So I was right that I never said that the flood was localized or universal.
The water had taken hundred and fifty days to go down thats very long for a localized flood my friend
Where did you get the idea that water had taken a hundred and fifty days to clear up? Was it the Bible? Well, if we are all assuming that Bible is historically authentic, then you and the Bible is right and me, Quran and science is wrong. But we are not assuming that Bible is historically authentic. First you have to prove that Bible is authentic then quote it. And that prove has to be on the basis of science (which you ironically reject).
I think the authors of the Quran got it all wrong like Noah's "fourth son" who drowned in the flood
First off, Quran, unlike the Bible, has only one Author. And again you are assuming the Bible to be right here.
An area of criticism applied by Muslim apologists against the Holy Bible and in support of the Quran is the issue of Noah's flood. Following the example set by Dr. Maurice Bucaille in his book, The Bible, the Qur'an & Science, Muslims assert that whereas the Holy Bible wrongly teaches a universal flood the Quran however, in agreement with both modern science and archeology, affirms that the flood during Noah's time was a local event.
Well, even if we assume that Noah's flood was global, Quran does not give a date. So archeologists have no problem if we say that there was a global or a local flood at any time in history, hence both of the interpretations of Quran do not contradict with science. However, Bible gives us the date of that global flood, in which many civilizations of the world existed. Hence, Bible contradicts science.
Unfortunately, many who are not familiar with the Quran or the early Islamic writings are left with the impression that the Quran inarguably teaches that the flood of Noah's day was merely a local event.
I've said it before, Quran neither says that it was global nor does it confirm that it was local. You are missing the key point here which is that Quran does not give us a date and the Bible does, which contradicts science.
For example, the Quran never says that the flood affected only the people living within close proximity to Noah and his family.
:). So Quran doesn't say that flood only destroyed the people of Noah, hence the flood destroyed everyone. Now Quran tells us many tales about nations who were destroyed by God. The people of Aad were punished by thunder and lightning and were destroyed. God doesn't say that only those guys were destroyed, does that mean that everyone on Earth got killed? Furthermore, Quran tells us a story about a garden which was destroyed to punish a his owner. But it doesn't say that only that garden was destroyed, does that mean that every garden on Earth was also destroyed?
Furthermore, there are passages in the Quran where a universal flood is clearly implied, if not explicitly stated. In fact, these very same passages are appealed to by Muslim writers, such as al-Tabari, to support the fact that the flood was universal.
Like I said before, some scholars say that flood was universal. Tabari must be one of them.
"At length, behold! There came Our Command, and the fountains of the earth gushed forth! We said: `Embark therein, of each two, male and female, and your family- except those against whom the Word has already gone forth,- and the believers.' But only a few believed with him." S. 11:40

"Then the word went forth: `O earth! Swallow up thy water, and O sky! withhold (thy rain)! And the water abated, and the matter was ended. The Ark rested on Mount Judi, and the word went forth: `Away with those who do wrong!'" S. 11:44.

The verses you quoted don't explicitly say that the entire Earth was submerged. The thing is, Quran is written in a very poetic fashion hence if God tells Earth to "swallow up your water" it does not mean that "you were entirely covered with water and now swallow it" :).
I've just argued that Quran doesn't explicitly say that the entire Earth was submerged. But suppose if I agree that the Earth was submerged, still, Quran will not contradict science. That is because Quran does not tell us when the flood occurred, but the Bible does. So let's assume for the sake of argument and conciliation that the whole Earth was submerged. Now explain to me, why does Bible contradict science?
Peace
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JOUBERAR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 March 2010 at 10:44am
Originally posted by _ALI_ _ALI_ wrote:

Salam Jouberar
Your statements in bold
Ali can you tell me how can a flood thats been localized kill all the inhabitants of the world, how is it possible that such a major event can be localized.

Are you referring to the flood of Noah? Well, I never said that the flood was localized and I never said that it killed all the inhabitants of the world. I do not know whether it killed everyone or only Noah's people or was it for only one piece of land or for entire world. I only said that according to the Bible, the flood took place 21st or 22 century BC and according to Science, there were other civilizations present at that time. Either Science is wrong or the Bible is.
Peace
 
ALI I AM SURE THE SCIENCTIST IS WRONG AND GOD IS RIGHT.
 
Ali here is your is post and you say you never said that or are only refering to the Quran.
 
Qur�anic presentation of the story of Noah and the flood does not conflict with scientific evidence or archaeological data; firstly, the Qur�an does not indicate any specific date or year of the occurance of that event, and secondly, according to the Qur�an the flood was not a universal phenomenon which destroyed complete life on earth. In fact the Qur�an specifically mentions that the flood was a localised event only involving the people of Noah.
 
The water had taken hundred and fifty days to go down thats very long for a localized flood my  friend I think the authors of the Quran got it all wrong like Noah's "fourth son" who drowned in  the flood.
 

Gen 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

Gen 7:12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

Gen 7:13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

Gen 7:14 they, and every beast after its kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after its kind, and every bird after its kind, every bird of every sort.

Gen 7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh wherein is the breath of life.

Gen 7:16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God commanded him: and Jehovah shut him in.

Gen 7:17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lifted up above the earth.

Gen 7:18 And the waters prevailed, and increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.

Gen 7:19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high mountains that were under the whole heaven were covered.

Gen 7:20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

Gen 7:21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both birds, and cattle, and beasts, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

Gen 7:22 all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, of all that was on the dry land, died.

Gen 7:23 And every living thing was destroyed that was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and creeping things, and birds of the heavens; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only was left, and they that were with him in the ark.

Gen 7:24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth a hundred and fifty days.

 

But God remembered Noah and all the wild animals and the livestock that were with him in the ark, and he sent a wind over the earth, and the waters receded. Now the springs of the deep and the floodgates of the heavens had been closed, and the rain had stopped falling from the sky. The water receded steadily from the earth. At the end of the hundred and fifty days the water had gone down, and on the seventeenth day of the seventh month the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat. Genesis 8

An area of criticism applied by Muslim apologists against the Holy Bible and in support of the Quran is the issue of Noah's flood. Following the example set by Dr. Maurice Bucaille in his book, The Bible, the Qur'an & Science, Muslims assert that whereas the Holy Bible wrongly teaches a universal flood the Quran however, in agreement with both modern science and archeology, affirms that the flood during Noah's time was a local event. The Quran clearly teaches that the flood only affected the people of Noah and did not stretch across the entire globe.

Unfortunately, many who are not familiar with the Quran or the early Islamic writings are left with the impression that the Quran inarguably teaches that the flood of Noah's day was merely a local event. The problem with this is that the Muslim apologists who make such statements must often read into the text something not explicitly stated and/or ignore the early Muslim exegetes and their interpretation of Quranic passages dealing with the flood.

For example, the Quran never says that the flood affected only the people living within close proximity to Noah and his family. The only reason why the Quran singles out the people of Noah is simply due to the fact that the Islamic scripture is recording the message Noah proclaimed to his contemporaries. It has absolutely nothing to do with the extent of the flood since it would be impossible for the Quran to include all the peoples of the world in these passages seeing that they had never heard Noah's preaching.

Furthermore, there are passages in the Quran where a universal flood is clearly implied, if not explicitly stated. In fact, these very same passages are appealed to by Muslim writers, such as al-Tabari, to support the fact that the flood was universal. Before proceeding to the Muslim writings, let us first examine the Quranic witness to the universality of Noah's flood:

"At length, behold! There came Our Command, and the fountains of the earth gushed forth! We said: `Embark therein, of each two, male and female, and your family- except those against whom the Word has already gone forth,- and the believers.' But only a few believed with him." S. 11:40

"Then the word went forth: `O earth! Swallow up thy water, and O sky! withhold (thy rain)! And the water abated, and the matter was ended. The Ark rested on Mount Judi, and the word went forth: `Away with those who do wrong!'" S. 11:44.

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pati Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 February 2010 at 10:30pm
Originally posted by robin robin wrote:

How would you answer the question:

 

What is a Christian according to the teachings of Jesus Christ as recorded in The Holy Bible?

Hi,
 
A Christian is a believer, someone who follows the teachings of Jesus trying to act in good faith, to help and love everyone, no matter his religion, money, color, etc.
 
The most important for us is the love and the peace, and we have to try our best to make it possible.
 
Regards


Edited by Pati - 24 February 2010 at 10:30pm
No God wants the killing, but the peace.
The weapons are carried by people, not by religions.
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