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Topic: seals on their hearts/eyes
Posted: 25 August 2009 at 5:04pm

Natassia,

here is my response in order:

1- Only when you first deny the relationship between you and Him and refuse to acknowledge His authority over you and reject the means and guidence through which He promised to lead you out of darkness and into the light. So those who decide to deny their Creator as such and withdraw their hand from Him God withdraws from them too, but out of His mercy , He still leaves the door of forgiveness and return open for those who realize their mistake and seek His forgiveness and favors.

2- There are many who fit that discription, but the purpose was to show you that when each one goes what their mind and heart wants, its not from God. Some think and act like killers, some have passion for one thing while some have for other things. Each one justifies that what he/she is doing is what God told them to do just like you claim.

3- So what you are saying is that if any claim what they have done, including what you do is from God, if that is the claim? Why does then each one's action differ so much?

4-That's what he said too. Can you tell me the name of one who qualifies as such, the ones that recieves the Holy Ghose/spirit (The All Knowing God) I am ready with some questions?

5- Devine book have its devine qualities. Absolute consistancy with the Devine, All KNowing. While the one that is not so will not pass the test. Our Creator, if will hold us responsible is only after giviing us the needed material, i.e. a sound mind, the criterian to judge between right and wrong and time to use them all, so we do not have an excuse. Only then we will be held responsible for our choices, and rightly so.

Wait for the day, when God starts to take away one by one what you have now but deny it. Do you want to wait to learn your lesson, or you stop denying His and your rightful position.

6- Those are various degrees of tests and trials, to prove the degree of faith we have, they help us earn the degree of reward as well. If you expect all to be in a state of prosperity, you are talking of what will be in Paradise the final stage, that is after you do what you are expected of, or it will be worse then anything we may have experienced ever, and not point of return!

So we seek God's guidence and forgiveness.

Hasan

Edited by honeto - 25 August 2009 at 5:12pm

The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

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Posted: 22 August 2009 at 11:45pm

@ honeto/Hasan

what you are asking are very common questions and even yourself can answer them by just giving some thought to things around you. Just be more observent and answer will appear. God has put that sense in all of us, to question, and then through logic and reasoning getting help to their answers.

Answering your first question simple, and like I said, if you just be abit thoughtfull, you will answer yourself.

Do you think the Creator of All is incapable of doing anyting? One who has fashioned a microscopic creature and assigned its position and function, the same who also Creats mega galaxies and assigns its destiny. I don't think that God has any limits or incapabilites.

Which means God very well could have led me away from Islam.

Your second question response:

Like I said if God had decided to give every individual direct revelation and guidence instead of prophets and book, God could have done that. But we see as an evidence that it is not the case. We see everyone following their own course, their own desires. One gets up, and says he is going to rule the world and that his race is super to others and God has appointed this race to rule of the eath. Then he kills and spreads his rule through brutality.

Do you know who that sounds like?

Now you tell me as you say that each one can be devinely guided, was this man directly recieving guidence from God.

Well, that's what he said.

There was another man, this one came and told me that God talks to him everyday and he has encounter with the holy spirit every night. I thought, he will come handy as my wife has been bugging me to find out the full name of my grand mother (we knew her just as grandmother Fatima, and she died when I was very little). I thought this guy, who talkes and has daily encounters with the holy ghost will have no trouble solving this mystry for me. So I asked the guy to ask for that next time he has "the visit". That guy never showed up again. I knew, he was fake. I can write a million examples but the purpose is to show you and you may relate unlimited such examples around you, that will show that each of us do not recieve revelation or guidence from God to how to live our lives.

The Holy Spirit is not a crystal ball or a pack of tarot cards, Hasan. The only ones who receive the Holy Spirit are those who repent and are born again.

On the other hand we see several claims of devine revelations and books. If we desire truth, and we set a high standard and priority to find it, we will find it. When you find that, you follow it, that's how you serve Him correctly, and serving Him correctly which by the way is to live this life with highest standards and with hamony with yourself and with what surrounds you is the purpose of life. And that addresses your third and fourth question.

Yeah, so how do you know which revelations and books are divine and which ones aren't?

Your last comment is rather innocent and out of touch with reality. A mother that gives you birth, feeds you and makes you capable of what you are today deserves the highest respect due to any human in your life, do you agree? A boss, for whom you work, who gives you a paycheck, so make a living off of that. You give due respect to your boss or your supervisor, otherwise you will be kicked out, rightly so. I hope those two real life examples clear it for you. That your Creator who has blessed you with life and so many blessings and favors that if you try to count you would not be able to don't deserve your thanks, respect, obedience and acknowledgement of Him being incharge of your fate?

Did God give birth to me? Does He feed me? Does He give me a paycheck?

For me denying Him of His rightful position is really the worst I can do that will bring a unstopable disaster for myself.

So, come to your senses, acknowledge your Creator as such, and serve your righful purpose and you will be sucessful.

Then why are so many Muslims living in poverty and terror (Iran, Pakistan, Sudan, etc.)?

You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life. (John 5:39-40)

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Posted: 22 August 2009 at 4:54pm

Natassia wrote:

honeto wrote:

Natassia,

I take first what you said last. You said: "What if God guides my heart instead? Do I have to have a book? What if I was stranded on an island and got amnesia so I couldn't remember anything Islamic? What then?"

I once have been there and use to question like you , so I can understand you point and can also give you a better answer. If God has decided that way that each one of us recieve devine guidence directly from Him surely that could have been just fine. But it did not happen that way. If each one of us start to assume that what comes out of only our own mind is the right way, then we would have billions and billions of ways/religions in the world each one claiming to be right.

Are you saying that God is incapable of guiding everyone's heart the same?

And how do you know that "it did not happen that way"? How do you know that He is not guiding me?

honeto wrote:

You are not the first one who thought this, nor God is unaware of it. God thus made is easy for us by sending is messengers, to be our teachers. To teach all humanity, only one beleif: That there is only One God, and how to serve Him rightly and correctly. If we follow our own desires and think we know more or recieve directions from God, than we may fall in error and will eventually be among the loosers. And if we follow logic, God given abilites, and figure out God's guidence sent down for us, we will be sure to succeed.

"how to serve Him rightly and correctly."

Why does He need service at all? Why would He even want it? Do you desire that the bugs crawling on the ground serve you?

Logically, it doesn't make sense that an almighty Intelligent Designer of this vast universe would even care if humans worshiped Him. You make Him sound so petty.

Natassia,

Answering your first question simple, and like I said, if you just be abit thoughtfull, you will answer yourself.

Do you think the Creator of All is incapable of doing anyting? One who has fashioned a microscopic creature and assigned its position and function, the same who also Creats mega galaxies and assigns its destiny. I don't think that God has any limits or incapabilites.

Your second question response:

Like I said if God had decided to give every individual direct revelation and guidence instead of prophets and book, God could have done that. But we see as an evidence that it is not the case. We see everyone following their own course, their own desires. One gets up, and says he is going to rule the world and that his race is super to others and God has appointed this race to rule of the eath. Then he kills and spreads his rule through brutality.

Now you tell me as you say that each one can be devinely guided, was this man directly recieving guidence from God.

For me denying Him of His rightful position is really the worst I can do that will bring a unstopable disaster for myself.

So, come to your senses, acknowledge your Creator as such, and serve your righful purpose and you will be sucessful.

Hasan

Edited by honeto - 22 August 2009 at 4:59pm

The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

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Posted: 19 August 2009 at 4:55am

honeto wrote:

Natassia,

Are you saying that God is incapable of guiding everyone's heart the same?

And how do you know that "it did not happen that way"? How do you know that He is not guiding me?

"how to serve Him rightly and correctly."

Why does He need service at all? Why would He even want it? Do you desire that the bugs crawling on the ground serve you?

Logically, it doesn't make sense that an almighty Intelligent Designer of this vast universe would even care if humans worshiped Him. You make Him sound so petty.

You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life. (John 5:39-40)

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Posted: 18 August 2009 at 4:58pm

Natassia,

You are not the first one who thought this, nor God is unaware of it. God thus made is easy for us by sending is messengers, to be our teachers. To teach all humanity, only one beleif: That there is only One God, and how to serve Him rightly and correctly. If we follow our own desires and think we know more or recieve directions from God, than we may fall in error and will eventually be among the loosers. And if we follow logic, God given abilites, and figure out God's guidence sent down for us, we will be sure to succeed.

As far as if you loose you mind, as you asked, God has said to hold only those responsible who are sane adults, so don't worry if you qualifyas insane

, otherwise get busy, and Truth will be made clear to you. May God guide us All.

Hasan

Edited by honeto - 18 August 2009 at 5:06pm

The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

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Posted: 12 August 2009 at 9:06pm

@ honeto / Hasan

thanks for your reply and brief explaination of you reasoning behind your problems with Quranic verses translated in English.
My intial response is that you read those verses without understanding them in context.

That doesn't really make sense to me. I mean, I read all the verses in Surah 2...keeping them in order. I don't understand what other context is necessary if this is the perfect word of Allah. Why would he allow me to get confused in the 2nd Surah because I wasn't reading things in context when I didn't know there was an external context? Obviously, this proved to me that it would be impossible to be a Quran-only Muslim without applying my own personal feelings into the interpretation of the book.

Here is what I mean:
For 2:53 your figured it right, I don't see a problem with that because God has sent so many prophets since Adam, so many times God has revealed His words to them to deliver to humanity. Have you ever thought why? Why God needed to send guides and guidence so many times? And what make you think that God will teach a different messege/religion each time?

I don't really understand why God would need to do anything. I mean, why would the Creator of the Universe care? What's the point?

　

No, God has always sent the same messege in essence for humanity to be guided rightly into knowing their Creator and His plan for them.

Oh, I see. He has a plan. A plan for what? What purpose does it serve?

So Moses (pbuh) and what we know as Torah was in essence has the same messege as the Quran does or say the Injeel did when they were revealed by God to their respective prophets. The reason for repeated messengers and messeges could be nothing more than them being lost or altered creating the gap for messege needed to be sent again so all have a chance to benefit from a pure word of guidence.

Okay, now this doesn't really make sense to me. Why would God allow humans to mess things up for so long and allow those corruptions to lead millions astray, and then finally send His message to someone He knew wouldn't mess it up? I mean, He always knew those other people would mess it up...so why give it to them? What was the point?

What that means is that the reason Jesus (pbuh) and Injeel (Gospel) was sent because the previous scripture no longer purely existed so people did not have a chance to access to the pure word of God. When the same thing happened again, as people drifted away from the true teaching sent by God through Jesus it created a gap and necessity as humanity was without pure guidence from God. And God as before, continued His Blessings and Love for mankind in form of another pure messege with the same purpose, to bring humanity to understanding their own existence, to know their Creator, to know their purpose, to know their obligations, to know their limits, to know the reality of their life and death, and what follows it. And to know how to live this live in harmony with themselves and with others, and to know that there is life after death. And that our every intention and action will determine our success or loss in the next life, that will be longer than the present one, in fact eternal. Thus it is important to align our intentions and actions with the pure and most updated word and teachings of God because that will be the most right thing. Its like filing you 2009 federal tax and using 2009 forms and manual, that's the correct way. If you use 2008 or 2007 forms and manuals, it will be not accepted even though both originated from the same true source.

But, I don't understand what is so impure about the previous scriptures. I mean, does the Tanakh teach people to follow other gods? Does it teach them to break God's Law (such as telling them to steal, murder, commit adultery, create idols, etc.)? And what about the New Testament? I mean, what is corrupted about it? It's just a compilation of ancient manuscripts that describe the beliefs of the earliest Christians. Obviously they would be the best authority to figure out what Christianity was truly about.

See, I feel the same way about the Quran. There are certain verses that I came across that made me KNOW it couldn't be from God. One of those verses is 4:24. I have a really hard time with that one. I also have a hard time with 4:34.

I firmly believe that what is compiled in the Bible did indead came from God and lost its purity in the hands of men. So I confirmed the problems and contradictions of the Bible for myself before I read in the Quran where God has mentioned the alterations by those who were given the charge to guard it.

What makes a book "pure" to begin with? It doesn't make sense to me that God would just hand out books. God, the Creator of this vast universe with its mysteries like black holes and quantum physics...why send a mere book? Books can get burned, water damage, copied incorrectly, translated incorrectly, moth-eaten, etc.

About your comment on 2:62 The answer is simple which you actually gave. Your last words on that "and does right will not be sent to hell." are very important in particular "does right". Does right according to what? according to the pure word of God. That's the key here. Remember the Tax example above. Would your 2009 taxes filed with 2008 or 2007 forms will be accepted, would they be right?

Well, so what you are saying is that the Quran defines what is "right" and "wrong"? What if God guides my heart instead? Do I have to have a book? What if I was stranded on an island and got amnesia so I couldn't remember anything Islamic? What then?

You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life. (John 5:39-40)

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Posted: 12 August 2009 at 11:20am

Natassia wrote:

honeto wrote:

Natassia,

I am curious to know what in particular turned you away. You mentioned sura 2 and 4. Can you point out what really was the reason that you did not go any further. I have seen and heard of people that melt, cry, humble and end up squeezing the Quran after coming in contact with it first time.

So I am really wondering what was your stuck point?

I understand, all of us would not end up in the same place, based on choices we make, and some of us adopt so opposite life styles. Some commit things that need to be accounted for, some do good deeds that need to be rewareded. So yes we all will not end up in one place for sure, but really cannot comprehend what got you to close Quran. Please bring it up one by one. I believe it is each other that we learn from the most, very little from ourselves.

I am equally curious to know why you started to read the Quran from the start, while the Bible from almost at the end as you mentioned the Gospels?

Hasan

Well, let's start with Surah 2. I had an issue with these verses:

[Pickthal 2:53] And when We gave unto Moses the Scripture and the criterion (of right and wrong), that ye might be led aright.

When I read this, I figured the Scripture = the Torah.

[Pickthal 2:62] Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

When I read this, I figured that anyone who believes in one God, judgment day, and does right will not be sent to hell.

[Pickthal 2:109] Many of the people of the Scripture long to make you disbelievers after your belief, through envy on their own account, after the truth hath become manifest unto them. Forgive and be indulgent (toward them) until Allah give command. Lo! Allah is Able to do all things.

This verse now makes it seem like most Christians and Jews are actually doing wrong by encouraging conversion to their religion...when the previous verses I mentioned makes it seem like their beliefs were okay to begin with. (At this point in my first reading of the Quran, I started getting confused.)

[Pickthal 2:113] And the Jews say the Christians follow nothing (true), and the Christians say the Jews follow nothing (true); yet both are readers of the Scripture. Even thus speak those who know not. Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that wherein they differ.

Now, at this point I knew something was up. Both the Jews and the Christians follow the Tanakh. The Jews do not say that the Christians follow nothing true, and the Christians do not say that the Jews follow nothing true.

[Pickthal 2:116] And they say: Allah hath taken unto Himself a son. Be He glorified! Nay, but whatsoever is in the heavens and the earth is His. All are subservient unto Him.

When I read this, I just knew that they were referring to Jesus who the Christians consider to be the Son of God. But, to be perfectly honest with you, I was willing to accept that verse 116 was correct and God didn't really have a Son. So, this verse simply established in my mind that either Jesus is the Son of God or he isn't, and according to the Quran he isn't.

[Pickthal 2:136] Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.

When I read this, I assumed that the Quran was now confirming the Torah. I wasn't sure what was meant by "that which...Jesus received" since I had never heard of Jesus receiving anything. However, I simply took this in stride since I was willing to be open-minded about anything regarding Jesus.

[Pickthal 2:190] Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.
[Pickthal 2:191] And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.
[Pickthal 2:192] But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[Pickthal 2:193] And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.
[Pickthal 2:194] The forbidden month for the forbidden month, and forbidden things in retaliation. And one who attacketh you, attack him in like manner as he attacked you. Observe your duty to Allah, and know that Allah is with those who ward off (evil).

Okay, I felt a little queasy about this one. Here God is actually sanctioning fighting. I could understand the self-defense part. But I didn't understand the "persecution is worse than slaughter" part.

[Pickthal 2:216] Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.
[Pickthal 2:217] They question thee (O Muhammad) with regard to warfare in the sacred month. Say: Warfare therein is a great (transgression), but to turn (men) from the way of Allah, and to disbelieve in Him and in the Inviolable Place of Worship, and to expel His people thence, is a greater with Allah; for persecution is worse than killing. And they will not cease from fighting against you till they have made you renegades from your religion, if they can. And whoso becometh a renegade and dieth in his disbelief: such are they whose works have fallen both in the world and the Hereafter. Such are rightful owners of the Fire: they will abide therein.

Here it says that warfare is ordained. I was having a hard time trying to apply this to my own life. I couldn't understand why I should have to go to war. But, I decided that if it was to defend my family, I could do it. Some time later, after learning about the existence of Tafsirs and the Hadith, I went back and researched the context of 2:217. I was shocked by what I read.

[Pickthal 2:223] Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilth as ye will, and send (good deeds) before you for your souls, and fear Allah, and know that ye will (one day) meet Him. Give glad tidings to believers, (O Muhammad).

As a woman, I had a hard time accepting that I am a tilth for my husband to cultivate as he wants when he wants.

[Pickthal 2:230] And if he hath divorced her (the third time), then she is not lawful unto him thereafter until she hath wedded another husband. Then if he (the other husband) divorce her it is no sin for both of them that they come together again if they consider that they are able to observe the limits of Allah. These are the limits of Allah. He manifesteth them for people who have knowledge.

Okay, this one weirded me out. I could not understand why, if a man is foolish and divorces his wife three times, he can't marry his ex-wife until she marries someone else and he divorces her. I guess I can see this as a deterrent for a man to frequently divorce his wife on a whim...but what if the woman truly wanted to take her husband back and didn't want to have to sleep with another man? This seems to take a woman's options away.

Hi Natassia,
thanks for your reply and brief explaination of you reasoning behind your problems with Quranic verses translated in English.
My intial response is that you read those verses without understanding them in context. Here is what I mean:
For 2:53 your figured it right, I don't see a problem with that because God has sent so many prophets since Adam, so many times God has revealed His words to them to deliver to humanity. Have you ever thought why? Why God needed to send guides and guidence so many times? And what make you think that God will teach a different messege/religion each time? No, God has always sent the same messege in essence for humanity to be guided rightly into knowing their Creator and His plan for them. So Moses (pbuh) and what we know as Torah was in essence has the same messege as the Quran does or say the Injeel did when they were revealed by God to their respective prophets. The reason for repeated messengers and messeges could be nothing more than them being lost or altered creating the gap for messege needed to be sent again so all have a chance to benefit from a pure word of guidence.
What that means is that the reason Jesus (pbuh) and Injeel (Gospel) was sent because the previous scripture no longer purely existed so people did not have a chance to access to the pure word of God. When the same thing happened again, as people drifted away from the true teaching sent by God through Jesus it created a gap and necessity as humanity was without pure guidence from God. And God as before, continued His Blessings and Love for mankind in form of another pure messege with the same purpose, to bring humanity to understanding their own existence, to know their Creator, to know their purpose, to know their obligations, to know their limits, to know the reality of their life and death, and what follows it. And to know how to live this live in harmony with themselves and with others, and to know that there is life after death. And that our every intention and action will determine our success or loss in the next life, that will be longer than the present one, in fact eternal. Thus it is important to align our intentions and actions with the pure and most updated word and teachings of God because that will be the most right thing. Its like filing you 2009 federal tax and using 2009 forms and manual, that's the correct way. If you use 2008 or 2007 forms and manuals, it will be not accepted even though both originated from the same true source.

I have repeatedly said on this forum that the proof is in the pudding. I never thought that "the Bible" ever contradicted. This is before I even knew my own Quran, I had great respect for both. It was not until reading the Bible, all by myself and studying it that I found problems with some of its contents. Things that could not have come form God or could not be assiciated with God. I firmly believe that what is compiled in the Bible did indead came from God and lost its purity in the hands of men. So I confirmed the problems and contradictions of the Bible for myself before I read in the Quran where God has mentioned the alterations by those who were given the charge to guard it.

5:12 Allah did aforetime take a covenant from the Children of Israel, and we appointed twelve captains among them. And Allah said: "I am with you: if you establish regular prayers, practise regular charity, believe in my apostles, honour and assist them, and loan to Allah a beautiful loan, verily I will wipe out from you your evils, and admit you to gardens with rivers flowing beneath; but if any of you, after this, resist faith, he hath truly wandered from the path or rectitude."

5:13 But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them- barring a few - ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind.

5:14 From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.

5:15 O people of the Book! There hath come to you our Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary). There hath come to you from Allah a (new) light and a perspicuous Book,-

5:16 Wherewith Allah guideth all who seek His good pleasure to ways of peace and safety, and leadeth them out of darkness, by His will, unto the light,- guideth them to a path that is straight.

5:17 In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every - one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things."

5:18 the Jews and the Christians say: "We are sons of Allah, and his beloved." Say: "Why then doth He punish you for your sins? Nay, ye are but men,- of the men he hath created: He forgiveth whom He pleaseth, and He punisheth whom He pleaseth: and to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between: and unto Him is the final goal (of all)"

5:19 O People of the Book! Now hath come unto you, making (things) clear unto you, Our Messenger, after the break in (the series of) our apostles, lest ye should say: "There came unto us no bringer of glad tidings and no warner ": But now hath come unto you a bringer of glad tidings and a warner . And Allah hath power over all things.

With the purest and updated word of God, you are able to do things right, knowingly and will achieve what is called above: "will not be sent to hell." as you have said.

Hasan

Edited by honeto - 12 August 2009 at 11:32am

The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

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