Doubts of Calvin

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   Salams,

I have a question here about sura fatihah

Ibn Abbas says it was revealed in Mecca, Abu Hurayrah says it was Medina.

Do we know which it is?

MAny thanks

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martha Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 30 October 2007 Status: Offline Points: 1140	Post Options Post Reply Quote martha Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: Doubts of Calvin Posted: 16 March 2010 at 10:35pm
	Salams, I have a question here about sura fatihah Ibn Abbas says it was revealed in Mecca, Abu Hurayrah says it was Medina. Do we know which it is? MAny thanks
	some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set

haris30432 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Male Joined: 23 January 2010 Location: India Status: Offline Points: 145	Post Options Post Reply Quote haris30432 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 15 March 2010 at 1:10am
	Peace, Scholars say that since its not easy for reverts to memorize surahs soon, even if they do proper rukuh and sujood, its enough. Daleel for this is the hadith - wherein Prophet {Pbuh} said, pray as you see me praying'. Coming to salah, the point is if i say subhana Rabbial ala' and you say Subhana rabbial azeem, there's no uniformity at all. How cud unity be gained amongst us. hmm..well i think u answered your question even before you put the question out.And.. i dont think the person standing next to me or the imam necessarily hears what im saying in my prayers to cause any kind of disuniformity during a congregational prayer.We all say the Fateha.sooo i guess uniformity can be achieved.Political leaders and some Muslims of various sects pray with each other these days to create unity and friendship.How do they achieve uniformity?Are u sure they all say the same things in their prayers other than the fateha?I know some people (Sunnis and Shias alike for example)say some words more and some less in their sujood and rukus.So doesnt that too cause disuniformity?OK now do u wana know how real unity can be achieved.Well here goes. [3:103] You shall hold fast to the rope of GOD, all of you, and do not be divided. Recall GOD's blessings upon you―you used to be enemies and He reconciled your hearts. By His grace, you became brethren. You were at the brink of a pit of fire, and He saved you therefrom. GOD thus explains His revelations for you, that you may be guided. Fatiha is opening. I would take it as opening of Qur'an, while you take it as opening as salah. What do you say now ? But when we cling to hadith wherein there's no contradiction at all that fatiha shud not be recited, and all do recite it as Prophet offered so. Does it not cause unity ? a ..a.. nope i consider Fatiha as opening of the Quran AND my Salat .Now looking into the content of the Fateha u will know its a prayer which calls itself Fateha(opening).So i dont think one needs to have a PHD to recognize that its a possible part of the Salat.Plus like i said before there are other mathematical proofs to support it which u may verify online if u are interested. Yes things must have passed on from generations, but they are not practised in the same form. They keep changing when passed. Jews offer salah in a different way , the salah of in the early days of Islam was different than that was offered in the later stages of Islam, What would you say now ? Wherein Qur'an did Allah swt say that he preserved the salah from days of Ibrahim ? By the way how do you backup your statement that salah is preserved ? Its not necessary that things when pass from generation to generation remain the same. My question regarding salah was, why shud one offer 2 units of rakah or 4 units as prescribed ? U missed the whole point again.U need 2 read my earlier post carefully..Lets examine the verses again. [2:127] As Abraham raised the foundations of the shrine, together with Ismail (they prayed): "Our Lord, accept this from us. You are the Hearer, the Omniscient. [2:128] "Our Lord, make us submitters to You, and from our descendants let there be a community of submitters to You. Teach us the rites of our religion, and redeem us. You are the Redeemer, Most Merciful. [2:129] "Our Lord, and raise among them a messenger to recite to them Your revelations, teach them the scripture and wisdom, and purify them. You are the Almighty, Most Wise." [16:123] Then we inspired you (Muhammad) to follow the religion of Abraham,* the monotheist; he never was an idol worshiper. From the above we know that the rites of the religion of Islam was given to Prophet Ibrahim and Prophet Muhammad was asked to follow the same religion constituting the same rites.Also we learn that the messenger ie Prophet Muhammad was to recite GOD's revelations and teach the Scripture and the wisdom within the scripture and NOT religious rites.No where in the Quran can you see God saying to Prophet Muhammad that he will teach him the rites of Prophet Ibrahim's religion.Nowhere can you see GOD asking him to teach people the religious rites of the religion of Prophet Ibrahim.He was simply commanded to follow Prophet Ibrahim's religion and deliver the Quran.The religion of Abraham must have been existing and preserved otherwise which religion was GOD talking about?.Yes ofcourse its not necessary things remain same and at the same time its not necessary that everything has to be corrupted and not preserved.It seems like its hard for some people to believe that GOD can preserve something like Salat. The rites ofcourse mustve been corrupted with new additions,deductions etc etc and this may continue to happen.So where do we get the correct salat?The answer is Al Quran.There is no dispute in the Rakahs,no dispute in the times of prayers and no dispute in the actual performance of the Salah.Plus if one seeks additional confirmation on the units ,times etc they can refer the Quran and its mathematical miracle if interested. For this we have the very high precedent of Salman Al-Farsi, who sent the translation of Al-Fatiha to some Persian converts, with the authorization of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) himself and they used it until their tongue got familiarized with the Arabic text. I hope the question is clear now. Peace!
	ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!

seekshidayath Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Female Islam Joined: 26 March 2006 Location: India Status: Offline Points: 3357	Post Options Post Reply Quote seekshidayath Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 13 March 2010 at 11:56pm
	why wud the Prophet only send the Fateha to the new converts ,ie if he ever did that :) ? I did not understand that Haris . Who said Prophet would send fateha to new converts ?
	Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."

seekshidayath Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Female Islam Joined: 26 March 2006 Location: India Status: Offline Points: 3357	Post Options Post Reply Quote seekshidayath Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 13 March 2010 at 11:55pm
	As Salamu Alaikum Thanks for your reply. Am sorry that i missed reading and responding to your line of surah Fatiha. Scholars say that since its not easy for reverts to memorize surahs soon, even if they do proper rukuh and sujood, its enough. Daleel for this is the hadith - wherein Prophet {Pbuh} said, pray as you see me praying'. Coming to salah, the point is if i say subhana Rabbial ala' and you say Subhana rabbial azeem, there's no uniformity at all. How cud unity be gained amongst us. Fatiha is opening. I would take it as opening of Qur'an, while you take it as opening as salah. What do you say now ? But when we cling to hadith wherein there's no contradiction at all that fatiha shud not be recited, and all do recite it as Prophet offered so. Does it not cause unity ? IF you look clearly its just not the Salat but there are many other non religious things that we do in our daily lives even today which came from earlier generations.So one cannot say that its impossible that Salat was preserved all the way from Prophet Ibrahim Yes things must have passed on from generations, but they are not practised in the same form. They keep changing when passed. Jews offer salah in a different way , the salah of in the early days of Islam was different than that was offered in the later stages of Islam, What would you say now ? Wherein Qur'an did Allah swt say that he preserved the salah from days of Ibrahim ? By the way how do you backup your statement that salah is preserved ? Its not necessary that things when pass from generation to generation remain the same. My question regarding salah was, why shud one offer 2 units of rakah or 4 units as prescribed ?
	Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."

haris30432 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Male Joined: 23 January 2010 Location: India Status: Offline Points: 145	Post Options Post Reply Quote haris30432 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 13 March 2010 at 12:40am
	And FYI i do not recite anything else other than Fateha.And fateha is a prayer from the Quran.And it is called fateha(key or opening) becoz it is considered as the key throo which contact with GOD is established. i think i already answered your question in my previous post.Now if you are asking me about what i say in my Ruku,sujood etc.Its pretty much similar to what u say.By upholding the Quran alone,one does not mean that we make a whole new Salat altogether.The Salat i believe has been preserved by Almighty Allah all the way from Prophet Ibrahim.Ofcourse there were and still are some corruptions.And thats y the Quran was revealed and is being preserved by Allah so that people can constantly check if there is anything wrong and corrupt in the words they utter,the religious practices they perform,the way they behave etc etc..everything is there in the Quran by Allah's grace.All praise to him alone.The Quran helps us purify our souls and the practices we perform as a form of worship to Allah alone.So there is no dispute if u say Subhana Rabbial Azeem when u do Ruku or Subahana Rabbial A'ala when u do sujood.The words of Praises to GOD is there in the Quran.So one who follows the Quran alone wouldnt dispute that.Everything were actually handed down from generation to generation.And some may have recorded it and some may not have.Thats a whole different issue.The point is that GOD preserved certain information till this very day.IF you look clearly its just not the Salat but there are many other non religious things that we do in our daily lives even today which came from earlier generations.So one cannot say that its impossible that Salat was preserved all the way from Prophet Ibrahim.For GOD as we all know,anything is possible.Prophet Muhammad was asked to follow the religion of Prophet Ibrahim.That verse in the Quran wouldnt make any sense if the religion of Ibrahim was not preserved till the time of Prophet Muhammed.The verse proves in a way that GOD preserves the practices but at the same time lets corrupters corrupt it with their innovations and idol worship.Such is GOD's system.All Glory be to him alone.The hadiths or any other books for that matter can only be refered as history books to get some information.Not a source of religious law or guidance.The only source of LAW and guidance is the Quran and nothing but the Quran.This is my understanding.May GOD guide us. "I would not argue about sunni/shia. I have proofs from hadith as well, but you don't accept hadith." Good for you but I believe that proofs from the actual word of GOD (Al Quran)supersedes or dominates anything and everything else be it from anywhere.And this is why im content with the actual word of GOD and nothing else. The verses from the Quran proving the above has been posted by myself in my previous posts.You may verify them again.Thank you :). My question of why only the Fateha was sent to the new converts to memorize and not any other Surahs remain unanswered.From what i see.. in your earlier post ,only the Fateha is to be recited in the Salat otherwise ..why wud the Prophet only send the Fateha to the new converts ,ie if he ever did that :) ? Peace!
	ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!

seekshidayath Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Female Islam Joined: 26 March 2006 Location: India Status: Offline Points: 3357	Post Options Post Reply Quote seekshidayath Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 12 March 2010 at 7:25pm
	I would not argue about sunni/shia. I have proofs from hadith as well, but you don't accept hadith. So our discussions take us nowhere. We offer salah the way Prophet offered, and we get its details from hadith. My question to you is Haris, what do you read in salah {Proof from Qur'an}
	Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."

haris30432 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Male Joined: 23 January 2010 Location: India Status: Offline Points: 145	Post Options Post Reply Quote haris30432 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 12 March 2010 at 1:23pm
	Peace, By Muslims in my post,i mean the Sunnis in particular.Y only the Fateha was sent to the new converts to by heart and not any other surahs along with it was sent?This was my question.And i ask this becoz most muslims today recite surahs after the fateha as if it is an important part of the Salah.And FYI i do not recite anything else other than Fateha.And fateha is a prayer from the Quran.And it is called fateha(key or opening) becoz it is considered as the key throo which contact with GOD is established thereby making it an important part of Salat.Plus there are mathematical proofs confirming it which i wud say u can verify yourself if you wish to. Peace!
	ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!

seekshidayath Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Female Islam Joined: 26 March 2006 Location: India Status: Offline Points: 3357	Post Options Post Reply Quote seekshidayath Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 March 2010 at 5:55pm
	As Salamu Alaikum If you had read the post Haris, its mentioned about provisions of new converts. By the way, your answer quiet puzzled me. You said, we have everything answered in Qur;an. How do you support your post with just Qur'an {not hadiths
	Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."