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Is Jesus really a Prophet? |
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Shibboleth 
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 Topic: Is Jesus really a Prophet?Posted: 28 April 2011 at 8:57am |
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TNC, the scripture that you used (John 21:4) refers to after Jesus� resurrection, when Peter draws his sword it was before Jesus� resurrection. But to help you and other Muslims understand, Jesus, who had been brought to life in the spirit, to make himself visible to his disciples had to materialize on each occasion to a different body of flesh and bones. Jesus himself then said: �A spirit does not have flesh and bones just as you behold that I have.� Since the flesh-and-bones disciples could not see what was not flesh and bones, they could not see a spirit and they could not see the resurrected Jesus, who was �in the spirit.��Luke 24:39. So Jesus trusted his Apostles and his Apostles trusted and believed Jesus (excluding Judas) Since Jesus would change his appearance (Body), they would not initially recognize him AT FIRST!
TNC, just try to clam yourself first of all, you are the one NOT understanding, getting the story mixed up, and misinterpreting the scripture not me! Understand what you are writing, if you read the account it said they had torches!!!!!! It was DARK! Judas couldn�t see! Jesus was not by himself! They had to take the right man! Judas was Jesus �betrayer� Apostle who followed him, of course he knew who he was and like I explained he had not been resurrected and changed over as of yet. On the other-hand those with Judas may or may not have known who he was. It�s really not complicated at all when you open your eyes and heart to the truth.
Edited by Shibboleth - 28 April 2011 at 8:59am |
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�If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.� (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al �Imran: 84-85)
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truthnowcome
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Posted: 06 April 2011 at 11:48pm |
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JESUS THE MESSIAH, THE SON OF MARY WAS CRUCIFIED AND DIED. This is an undeniable historical fact. It is not only ubiquitous throughout the Bible, including the many times Jesus himself propesied his own death and crucifixion, but confirmed in numerous contemporary Jewish and Roman extrabiblical sources (Tacitus, Josephus, Lucian of Samosata, Mara bar Serapion, the Talmud). The great Apostle Paul summarized the entire corpus of his teaching as follows: For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus the Messiah, and Him crucified. 1 Cor 2:2 So how in the world can the Quran both take Jesus as a prophet AND deny his death and crucifixion? How did Muhammad get it SO VERY WRONG? Hello Egwpisteuw, All Historical fact base on conjecture. No one was there to verify the actual fact; Hear say se say is not fact!! Yes Paul summaries it: � And of Paul he rightly established the �FACT�: �Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him (God Almighty) that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared. (Hebrews 5:7) Which also agreed with what Jesus (S) Prophesied: � �For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the wale�s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth�. Matt.12:40 DID JONAS DIE IN THE WALE BELLY? NO! He [Jesus (S)] went to Geth-sem-a-ne and pray asking God Almighty to change the situation and Paul conforms Jesus (S) prayer was answer. Truth is truth
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truthnowcome
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Posted: 06 April 2011 at 11:23pm |
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Very nice questions! But eventually they did know it to be Jesus; would Peter draw his sword for a stranger TNC? And the �man� who miraculously put the guard ear back on that Peter took off, if not Jesus who was he with such power? So, my question to you, was Jesus a Prophet who cannot be trusted? Was the GARDENER to be trusted? I also noticed that you conveniently left out Judas and said �they� didn�t recognize him. Did Judas recognize this �imposter Jesus� or does he just like kissing strangers? TNC, do you know Muslim say it was Judas who was crucified and other Muslims say it was someone else? Who did Muhammad say he was? You never did answer any of these questions. Hello Shibboleth, are you still there? As I was browsing true this I saw this reply of yours to my; I am sorry I didn�t see it before to reply. However, I am responding to it now. Before I answer your question let me point out: Peter didn�t draw his sword because he eventually knew it was Jesus (S) (�But the disciples knew him not that it was Jesus.� John 21:4 ); he draws his sword to defend him because he assumes him to be Jesus(S) and that is because Jesus (S) leave him and all of others to watch, they were guarding him. What you suppose Jesus (S) let him bought a sword for? It is to guard him while he could go and pray for help, and help came: And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. (Luke 22:43) What is the purpose of help does God need help from an angel? Your bible stated: "...All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." (Matthew 28:18) The writings of the bible stated that he was in a state of agony and fearful of death till his sweet became blood: � �And being in agony, he prayed more earnestly; and his sweet was, as it were, great drop of blood falling to the ground.� Luke22:44; � ��My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death... And he went a little farther, and fell on his face. And prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou will.� (Matt.26:28-29) And your same bible states: �The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.� (James 5:16) The help that came there was to replace him at the same moment. How we know that and who said that? You self appointed disciples �PAUL!� NOT ME!!!!!!!! He said: � �Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him (God Almighty) that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared. (Hebrews 5:7) At the said moment he was save according to self appointed Paul! God Almighty �heard� that he feared death and �save� him.
� the �man� who miraculously put the guard ear back on that Peter took off, if not Jesus who was he with such power? So, my question to you, was Jesus a Prophet who cannot be trusted? Was the GARDENER to be trusted? If Paul set the record striate; then my only conclusion applies to what you guys believe. Does your bible teaches of the Holy Spirit come on people and speak true them and do miracles? It was not Jesus (S) a prophet who was not to be trusted; It was the disciples who didn�t understood Jesus (S) message of the sign of Jonah. So God Almighty gives them some comfort. You didn�t see they didn�t recognize him: ��But the disciples knew him not that it was Jesus.� John 21:4
also noticed that you conveniently left out Judas and said �they� didn�t recognize him. Did Judas recognize this �imposter Jesus� or does he just like kissing strangers? TNC, do you know Muslim say it was Judas who was crucified and other Muslims say it was someone else? Who did Muhammad say he was? You never did answer any of these questions. Eder you miss the point or you just making yourself foolish. Who was leading the band of men? Judas!!! V.3 Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons. John 18:3 If Judas was leading those people to Jesus (S) location (only he could have known where Jesus (S) would have be among his band of men) why he took so long to recognize him? Let me repost the incident: V.4 says that: �Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth and said unto them, whom seek ye?� Think about it, Jesus was asking them �whom seek ye?� and what they said? V.5 �They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth.� Who is �they�? They included Judas because he was leading the band of men!!!!!!! They(Judas and hid band of men) didn�t recognize him as Jesus (S) and he was just in front of them, and the suppose Jesus �the gardener� according to Mary in John 20:15 where she supposing him to be the gardener said: �I am he�. And what happen after that? V.6 �As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell on the ground.� Who went back and fell to the ground? They!!! Why? They (Judas and hid band of men) were shock to know that they man whom they were looking for was right in front of them and they fall back, because they didn�t recognize him. AGAIN when he asks them in Verse7 they insisted �Jesus of Nazareth� why again? Because they (Judas and hid band of men) didn�t recognize him to be Jesus (S), but the supposed Jesus the gardener insisted �I am he,� and in V. 8 he said: �I have told you that I am he� more emphasis add here, why? Because they (Judas and hid band of men) didn�t recognize him!!! Truth is truth! At that moment Judas has no alternative but to accept this suppose Jesus who claimed he is Jesus (S); so after all that drama he went forwarded and kiss him.
TNC, do you know Muslim say it was Judas who was crucified and other Muslims say it was someone else? Who did Muhammad say he was? You never did answer any of these questions. I am aware of that and more of that. Some say it was �Barabbas� His real name is Barabbas Jesus (Bar for son, abba for father and Jesus: Jesus son of the father) that is why they has to address Jesus (S) as Jesus of Nazareth because both of them were call �son of God� So I suppose when they were brought out for the people to choose who should be kill they choose the suppose Jesus the gardener for release and Barabbas Jesus (Jesus of the father) took the rap. Some believe he went to the cross and escape death and went to India. Some believe he went to the cross and escape death and then ascended to heaven. So you see we have a lot of conjectures! What Allah (S) said? He said: � And they said (in boast), �we killed Christ the son of Mary, the apostle of Allah�:- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it was made to appear to them so, and those who differ therein are full of doubt with no (certain) knowledge, but they follow only conjecture, for of a surety they killed him not. (Q.4:157) Just as Paul said: � �Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him (God Almighty) that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared. (Hebrews 5:7) We all agree that Jesus Christ (S) was a righteous and a pious man and the Bible says that the wicked will take his place: �In the work of his own hands the wicked is snared" [Psalm 9:16], � "The wicked is a ransom for the righteous, And the treacherous is in the place of the upright� [Proverbs 21:18], � and "The righteous is delivered from trouble, But the wicked takes his place" [Proverbs 11:8]. Who say that? The God of the bible! TNC
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honeto
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Posted: 30 March 2011 at 1:33pm |
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David,
I am sorry if I have disappointed you but all I am trying to do is to clear my position.
As much as I get upset to see you repeat wrong ideas about my belief and about what is not true despite your insistence, I am willing to take it where you fully understand my position, clearly. And please don't tell me what my belief is all about, because you cannot. So wise thing to do will be to listen about my beleif from me, and not from yourself, if you want to know about it. You need not to agree with it, but please don't make up things about others and their belief just because you disagree. If you have a proof that proves me wrong, please bring it, if it is authentic, I will consider your objection. And If found truthfull, I will follow you. Likewise, if you cannot prove me wrong, I will expect you to follow what is proved as truth. But still if you wnat to follow your desires, you are free to do so at your own risk.
You have so far got my clear response to your argument about Kaaba. You seem to have some kind of attitude toward Muslims facing Kaaba when offering worship to God Almighty. You keep insulting Muslims that they bow down to an idol that is housed inside Kaaba.
According to tradition and teachings, Kaaba was the first house of worship ever eracted by prophet Adam (pbuh). Over course of time people lost its true purpose and God commanded to prophet Abraham to rebuid it, which he did. When people deviated from path of God and filled the Kaaba with idols of false gods in it again, there came Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) the final messanger of God. God commanded him to purify Kaaba of those idols once for all which he did. And there are no more idols in the Kaaba. The black stone is a relic, a historical marker so to speak that was to point its location. If one feel and touch it, he/she feels and conects themselves to those who are most dear to us after God, prophets like Abraham and Mohammed (pbut) who themselves touched it as well. Have you ever held a watch or an item left by a deceased relative (father , grandfather that you loved) touching and kissing or feeling gets you some form of connect with that person, does not it? And that's what people do when they go there. For those of us who have never seen or felt it yet, it is nothing. Each time I face toward Kaaba when offering my Salath or worship to God Almighty, I don't think or mention anything about the black stone you refer to as idol. It is in no way ever mentioned or thought of when one is offering there Salath, facing the Kaaba, clear?
What I just told you above is how I believe about Kaaba and how I bow down to mine and your Creator. Please don't add anything to it from your own opinion or not beleiving in it.
I have also showed you, when you questioned, that there is similar form of practice mentioned in the Bible. Of someone putting a stone, as a maker to the holy place. Of facing a certain direction when bowing down in worship to God. Of worshiping certain times a day as a regular practice. All those records, even bits and pieces give us a glimpse of how believers before practiced their belief inline and in very similar ways we who submit to the will of our Creator, Muslims do today.
Now this is my understanding and belief, and like I have said you need not top agree with it if you don't want. But all I did is also to give you referances that support my claims. And I am sorry that I said I will not repeat or write over again, I will go over it a hundered times if you want me to.
I ask a healthy reply with evidence and not offense nor aggression.
Hasan Edited by honeto - 30 March 2011 at 1:53pm |
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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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Experiential
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Posted: 29 March 2011 at 5:03pm |
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Thank you for your best wishes Islamispeace.
Yes I have considered what you have had to say. I trust the open mindedness will be reciprocated. God Bless David |
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islamispeace
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Posted: 29 March 2011 at 11:41am |
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I wish you the best and hope that you will at least think about the things I and others have said. |
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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
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Posted: 28 March 2011 at 4:49pm |
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Hello Islamispeace
Thank you for your thoughtful reply. You know my position on these things and Im not really interested anymore. You can grind it out with Eqwipistew if you want. The only reason I got involved was because Hasan addressed me a while back. As said previously Im starting to doubt the reason for this discussion forum. The tone of most of the writers is immature and goading (Muslim and Christian) and as the differences between the two religions is so large then tolerance is the obvious spiritual response. I may involve myself later if I see a reason and the general tone is positive. All the best with the debate. God Bless David Edited by David4848 - 29 March 2011 at 3:52am |
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islamispeace
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Posted: 28 March 2011 at 3:42pm |
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But that is my point to you as well. Your argument is just as theological and unless you provide logical arguments, than your argument is just as weak as you say Hasan's argument is weak. Therefore, your critique is one-sided.
Whether this is true or not, it is irrelevant. The question is not what salvation means. The question is what was required for salvation, and according to Eqwpisteuw, blood sacrifice is the only way to attain it.
What does this have to do with the Muslim emphasis? Why would that influence his argument? Shouldn't his argument be based on the Bible? Since it is, I think your assessment is incorrect. He is definitely basing his opinion on the Bible, but only on part of it...the NT. He only quotes the OT when it serves his purpose, but when it does not, he ignores it. This is a trait I find in many Christians, this selective use of random verses.
Well, obviously. That is because He is God and we are His creation! The question is why would God make an innocent man atone for everyone else? Why are people not held responsible for their own actions? The Quran says that we are responsible for ourselves. This makes much sense to me and it seems much more just and fair.
Why does He need an innocent man's blood to be spilled in order to provide atonement? Help me to understand this. What does the act of spilling blood do actually?
This is meaningless because, as you said, they are merely "Christian extrapolations". What are these extrapolations based on? Where in Leviticus does it say that the grain offering was merely for giving thanks to God? Furthermore, Leviticus 5 is concerned with atonement for one's sins and not giving thanks to God.
Actually, the "righteous" thing to do would have been to absolve the rest of mankind for the sins of Adam. Adam sinned himself, so why were we held responsible as well?
What context? The context says that God will punish the Jews for mishandling the Law, but it does not say anything about Him actually restoring the Law. You did not present anything to support your claim. I say that your argument is based on faith since you have provided no actual evidence that God "jealously" protected His word.
The fact that it continued without the stone shows that it played a very minor role. The claims made by you and others are simply over-exaggerated. Even the pagans did not place spiritual claim on the stone. It was considered an important relic, but it was not part of the religious service.
Again, if it had any pagan association, then it would have been destroyed along with the other idols. The fact that it was not shows that it was not what you claim it was. Why would Muhammad (pbuh) need to "compromise" with the pagans when he was now the undisputed ruler of Arabia? If anyone had to compromise, it would have been the pagans. Even then, they were offered no compromise. Either you follow Islam or you face eternal damnation in Hell. God does not compromise.
These are all empty statements, devoid of any logical argument. You have yet to prove that the stone has any theological importance, whether to the pagans or to Muslims. Yet you are insisting on some "pagan" religious importance. Regarding Jesus, the question many raise is not about Jesus himself but the stories about him that were told and written down by his later followers. They also point to certain aspects of Christianity which were seen to be very similar to pagan religions like Mithraism. According to Marvin Meyer: "As a Mithraic text, the Mithras Liturgy is of value for the study of early Christianity, which in general resembles Mithraism in a number of aspects - enough to make Christian apologists scramble to invent creative theological explanations to account for the similarities." ("The Mithras Liturgy", in "The Historical Jesus in Context", p. 179).
You were basing it on a pure speculative notion. Not all pagan religions have a "fertility" rite. I know of no such custom among the pagan Arabs. Even if it was present, you were basing your claim purely on what the stone plus the silver lining "looked like" in your mind. Therefore, I concluded that it was due more to ignorance and also perhaps to a "gutter mentality". I certainly do not see a vagina. The first thing that comes to my mind is a bowl. I could understand someone seeing that. |
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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
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Truthnowcome wrote: