Shiitism

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Haqq

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Joined: 15 October 2009
Location: Pakistan
Status: Offline
Points: 3

Topic: Shiitism
Posted: 15 October 2009 at 1:37am

Ali (as) is the true lover of Allah and Allah and Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) are his lovers. The person who belives 12 Imams, only he is shia. There are lots of rumours about Shias but truth is this that Fiqqa Jaffria is the true way which leads us to Prophet Muhammad(pbuh)

Akhe Abdullah View Drop Down

Senior Member
Senior Member

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Joined: 19 November 2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1252

Posted: 23 September 2009 at 6:42am

To spread Islam

Edited by Akhe Abdullah - 23 September 2009 at 6:42am

Moses

Groupie

Male
Joined: 02 September 2009
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 65

Posted: 02 September 2009 at 10:50am

Ya Sayedi wrote:

............

I wonder y many people hate /dislike our Prophet MUHAMMED(Sallau-aliya-wali-wasalm) where infact this entire Universe was created for him.

................

Is anybody hate of him?!! how you can approve that the Universe created for him?!!!!! God says himself?! where ?

myahya

Senior Member

Joined: 06 February 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 222

Posted: 26 August 2009 at 6:39am

Was Aya 33:33 revealed before or after Hadith of Blanket?

The Hadith is performed upon the revelation of 33:33.

Were Shia imams purified at birth or after this aya was revealed?

I believe that they were already purified.

Fatah-Momin View Drop Down

Senior Member

Joined: 11 May 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 156

Posted: 11 June 2009 at 9:23pm

My Questions to Shia:
1. Was Aya 33:33 revealed before or after Hadith of Blanket?
2: Were Shia imams purified at birth or after this aya was revealed?

I hope some educated Shia member will nswer these questions.

Usmani

Senior Member

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Joined: 07 September 2006
Location: Pakistan
Status: Offline
Points: 184

Posted: 11 March 2009 at 10:13pm

myahaya,

Quote:-It is good to know that if we take the meaning of ahle bayt in this hadith the same as the meaning of it in purification verse, then it contradicts Quran, and many other ahadith from sahih Muslim, Thirmidhi, and so on. Therefore, the meaning of ahle bayt (if it is literally mentioned in Arabic version of hadith) is not the same as its meaning in purification verse if the hadith is authentic. You can not scarify everything even Quran and all other ahadith in Islam for the sake of Sahih Bukhari.

>>>You are saying this because yours understanding is that the ahle bayt are infallible, otherwise there is nothing wrong in this hadith.One mistake lead to many other mistakes. You need to do a thorough study of the yours understanding of infallibility of Ahle bayt.Mufti Shafi has explained it in his Ahkam ul Quran.

Engage your self in good deeds,otherswise yours nafs will engage you in bad deeds

myahya

Senior Member

Joined: 06 February 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 222

Posted: 09 March 2009 at 3:53am

It is narrated in Sahih Muslim by Zayd ibn Arqam

From Zayd ibn Arqam in Sahih Muslim there is also one hadith in which he says wives are not included. What do you mean? Is this another hadith in the same book, Sahih Muslim saying the reverse?!!

As far as the cloak hadith of sahih muslim and termidhi, you are taking some meaning which not there at all

Which of the cloak ahadith is including wives? You are taking some meaning which is not there simply because you pre-assume that wives must be already included in the meaning of that verse of Quran without any reasonable justification and without pondering that such pre-assumption contradicts Quran and Sunnah because the meaning of purification verse is infallibility.

it is good enough to know that Prophet called them ahle bayt.

It is good to know that if we take the meaning of ahle bayt in this hadith the same as the meaning of it in purification verse, then it contradicts Quran, and many other ahadith from sahih Muslim, Thirmidhi, and so on. Therefore, the meaning of ahle bayt (if it is literally mentioned in Arabic version of hadith) is not the same as its meaning in purification verse if the hadith is authentic. You can not scarify everything even Quran and all other ahadith in Islam for the sake of Sahih Bukhari.

Any prove of it please share with us.

So far I have presented my proofs. For instance, in my last post, I brought its meaning by clear words of Mohammad (sawa) from Sahih Thirmidhi and Tafsir Dorrol Mansur Syuti.

You should provide a proof if it is legal purification.

So What about Quran, it is also transmitted to us by fallible people like ahadith and not through infallible.The initial compiling of Quran carried out by Hazrat Abu bakr time(RA) on the advised by Hazrat Umer(RA).

I do not believe so. Quran was written at the time of the prophet and was collected by the prophet himself at the time of revelation. No intellect can accept that the prophet spent years leading Muslims and letting them write and memorize the verses of Quran but did never collect them till his death.

Lots of verses of Quran and ahdith are there which shows that Prophet(pbuh) was infallible.

Infallibility is not ONLY for prophet so that you can never say anyone who is not a prophet should necessarily be fallible. The reverse, however, can be proved from Quran.

remember that the next verse 33:34 start with �and� it shows the continuity from the previous verse�s last part as you referred, further more it is also address to the wives(Allah bless them all) as well,ponder please.

I have talked about the relation between 33:34 and last part of 33:33. It is obvious. Last part of 33:33 is revealed in the house of the wives and recited to them. In 33:34 it is telling wives to keep in mind what is recited to them in their house. That is why it is started with �and�.

But I don�t see much difference between only Quran muslims and shite muslim honestly.Shite Muslims also did not follow most of the ahadith even which are not against the Quran as well.You have yours reasons and they have their reasons.See what you have said for bukhari.

Actually what you say for Sahih Bukhari proves that you do not follow most of the ahadith. You can easily refuse other ahadith no matter how much they are directly referring to the matter in hand, how authentic they are, how much inline with Quran they are only for the sake of Sahih Bukhari arguing that Sahih Bukhari must be the most authentic book. Where the prophet or Quran told Muslims to choose a hadith book and call it the most authentic book? Interesting thing is that you claim to be Ahlol-Jamaa�ah while you prefer a single hadith book to everything. I have been much more Ahlol-Jamaa�ah than you in this discussion on purification verse with a variety of ahadith I have referred to. Meanwhile, I have not presented a single hadith from Shia sources because apparently you reject all of them out of bias. Is what you are doing the meaning of being Ahlol-Jamaa�ah?

Edited by myahya - 09 March 2009 at 3:57am

Usmani

Senior Member

Male
Joined: 07 September 2006
Location: Pakistan
Status: Offline
Points: 184

Posted: 04 March 2009 at 5:04am

Myahya

Quote:-The other references (which say that Ali, Fatima, Hasan, and Hussain (as) are the meaning of the purification verse) do not consider wives included and they are from Sahih Muslim, Tirmidhi and so on.

>>>I have posted a bukhari hadith before now there is one from muslim.

It is narrated in Sahih Muslim by Zayd ibn Arqam (رضّى الله عنه) that the Prophet�s wives are part of the Ahlel Bayt. In Sahih Muslim (Book 31, Chapter 4, Hadith-5920)

I hope you know the status of sahih bukhari and sahih muslim for a sunni.Both are saying the same thing.As far as the cloak hadith of sahih muslim and termidhi, you are taking some meaning which not there at all,(that the wives are not included) and not realizing yours mistake.

Quote:-First, literally it is not referring to this verse of Quran. Second, the purification verse is talking about absolute and complete purification which is called infallibility and from Quran we know that the wives do not have such purification.

>>>If he (pbuh) is not referring the verse so what, it is good enough to know that Prophet called them ahle bayt.

Quote: Second, the purification verse is talking about absolute and complete purification which is called infallibility.

>>>Any prove of it please share with us.

I said:-how do you explain that ahle bayt has two meanings one is with the wife and other without wife? Please provide the support of Arabic grammar in yours reply.

You said:-Support of Arabic grammar can be obviously found in the purification verse. It can never mean anything other than infallibility

>>>I have read all of your reply but found no answer of a simple question.Ponder please.

Quote:-The authenticity of a hadith can be understood only from detail historical study through the chain of the narrators of that hadith and the fact that whether the hadith is in line with Quran or not to get sure that the hadith is word of an infallible. In this regard all ahadith are potentially questionable. Do not make an exception for yourself. Bukhari was a Muslim scholar who was a fallible person and collected some ahadith in a book about 200 years after the prophet (sawa), nothing more.

Quote:-Yes, but you claim that infallibility must be only the hallmark of a prophet. How do you support this claim?

Lots of verses of Quran and ahdith are there which shows that Prophet(pbuh) was infallible.

And he (the Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) does not speak out of his own desire. It is not but a revelation revealed (to him). (53:3-4)

Say: This is my way. I call to All�h with sure knowledge, I and whoever follows me. (12:108)

I said:-Could you bring a single verse where it is showing the infallibility of four of ahle bayt as you claimed,apart from 33:33 where Allah talking to the wives(Umahatul Momaneen).

You said:-I brought one (the last part of 33:33). Our argumentation is written in this thread and everyone can read it and ponder if they would like to.

>>>So you don�t have single verse.As far as the last part of 33:33,remember that the next verse 33:34 start with �and� it shows the continuity from the previous verse�s last part as you referred, further more it is also address to the wives(Allah bless them all) as well,ponder please.

Quote:-That is the same for many other things in Quran. For example, if the prophet had not told us and shown us how to pray we couldn�t understand it from Quran. That is why I believe that only-Quran Muslims are greatly deviated.

>>>I am fully agreed with you on that.But I don�t see much difference between only Quran muslims and shite muslim honestly.Shite Muslims also did not follow most of the ahadith even which are not against the Quran as well.You have yours reasons and they have their reasons.See what you have said for bukhari.

Bukhari was a Muslim scholar who was a fallible person and collected some ahadith in a book about 200 years after the prophet (sawa), nothing more.

>>>I have seen them giving almost the same remarks about bukhari.

Engage your self in good deeds,otherswise yours nafs will engage you in bad deeds