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Chrysalis 
Senior Member 
Joined: 25 November 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2033 |
 Topic: Was Islam spread by the sword?Posted: 12 March 2012 at 1:03am |
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Actually Egypt is home to some of the oldest generations of Christians in the world. Egypt has a significant number of Coptic Christians that have been living there for centuries. They were never disturbed, moved or forcibly converted the past centuries that the Muslims ruled Egypt. They didn't even choose to fight against the Ottomans or Muslim Caliphate during the crusades... If they had faced any sort of problems, they would have migrated to other lands like the Armenians or Jews.
In the Vatican City, women cannot wear short shorts. In China, proselytizing Religions is monitored and controlled. You cannot bring Bibles or Qur'ans in large numbers to China. In France the cross is forbidden in schools, so is the Hijab and other religious symbols. In India you cannot slaughter cows publicly or sell meat in many restaurants. Why? Cultural sensitivity and local laws. However I don't think Christians are forbidden from owning crosses and practicing religion in S.Arabia. Public displays of crosses are probably forbidden. However apart from Saudia Arabia, no other muslim country has these laws.
Even after Operation Iraqi Freedom? ;) I don't blame 'em! Iraq is not a very safe place these days... even for muslims. Those who can emigrate, should! Muslims and non-muslims alike.
You mean pay taxes? Makes sense, yes. In a Shairah State - the Non-Muslims (incl. Christians) are exempted from serving in the Army, exempted from Islamic Restrictions that apply to Muslims only, and exempted from other forms of taxes that ONLY Muslims pay (such as Zakat, Fitra, etc). A non-Muslim can choose to not serve in the army of its Muslim government and instead pay a Jizya which ensures that the Muslim Army will protect that non-Muslim community from other armies. A clause that many muslims living in the West wished existed. (choosing not to fight certain wars).
Denying him in what way? We Muslims believe that Jesus (Peace Be Upon Him) was a beloved Prophet of Allah/God. His mother was a woman of exceptional character. An entire chapter in the Quran is dedicated to his mother Mary, wherein Allah describes the pain and troubles she went through giving birth to him. We believe Jesus was a mortal man and He believed in One God. We also love Jesus so much that Muslim men are supposed to dress like Jesus (and all the other Prophets like him. Peace be on them all). Muslim men have beards like Jesus, wear loose clothes like Jesus and believe in one God like Him. Muslim Women dress like the Mother of Jesus, wear a Hijab/Veil and guard their chastity like Mary. How else do you reflect love and belief in a Prophet?
Terrorism is definitely not the answer, and is forbidden (haram) in Islam. Jihad is not terrorism. Jihad is self-defense. If Russia invades USA, USA has a right to defend its people. Similarly, if someone attacks a Muslim country/land - they have a right to defend themselves. In arabic it is called Jihad. Allah/God says in the Qur'an that killing a single soul is like killing all of mankind. It is forbidden. Unless of course it is done by the govt for valid reasons such as punishment for a heinous crime, or during warfare, or self-defense.
I agree. In fact this is what Allah/God says in the Qur'an: Qur'an 3:64-71 Surah Ale-'Imran (The Family of 'Imran),
We believe the Qur'an is a Divine Revelation, untouched by man. If you believe the opposite, then tell us why you believe it to be so...
Really? Can you tell me who is responsible for modern-day wars? Is it Christians? Or Muslims? Who invaded Afghanistan and Iraq? Who is responsible for Drone attacks on a sovereign nation such as Pakistan? Is it Muslims or Christians? Also, who was it that attacked Palestine and initiated war. Was it Muslims? Or was it some Zionists (with the help of Christians) ?
How do Muslims go against local laws? Can you tell us please? If they break local laws, the government has a right to arrest them. There is no shariah law in France or Sweden or any non-muslim country whatsoever! Where are you getting all this information? Sounds really ridiculous. You should look these facts up or people may not take you very seriously. (Friendly advise)
I agree that just because a bunch of ignorant fools burnt Qur'ans because they were raised in an intolerant culture - does not mean that Muslims can go on a killing spree. The people responsible should be dealt with according to the law of the land and their country of origin should be asked to step in and resolve the issue. I agree that it is not worth the killings. However it IS a serious issue that needs to be addressed.
While I agree that the violence is not an answer to the above problem... it still is a problem that needs to be addressed. Try burning a Hindu book in front of a Hindu. Or try burning the Bibles in front of Christians... you will see angry reactions because you over-stepped a boundary that should never have been crossed. |
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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Dayem
Senior Member 
Joined: 23 August 2005 Status: Offline Points: 520 |
Posted: 11 March 2012 at 4:11pm |
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Nothing personal...but you remind me of Niki, - she was my pet parrot. Apparently there is a big IQ gap...I give up.
If you want to discuss the political development of the Muslim and Christian world, past and present, start a new topic. Trust me, you will never be able to win the blame game. In the meantime, since you seem to have figured out the grand solution for Muslims (which is to throw away Qur'an and read Bible and become Christians  ) why don't you check this article for some different perspective THE CAUSE OF PROTEST IN AFGANISTAN
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"the mooslims! they're heeere!"
LOONWATCH.COM |
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iec786
Senior Member
Joined: 06 February 2012 Status: Offline Points: 508 |
Posted: 11 March 2012 at 11:20am |
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The comparison to Christianity doesn't help your situation since Jesus never taught his followers to kill Why do you Bible thumpers lie go and read your Bible. Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. Luke 19:26-28 So, while you may argue that Islam isn't spread in your country by the sword now, it certainly was in the beginning by Muhammed. Prove it |
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Empiricist
Guest Group 
Joined: 26 February 2012 Status: Offline Points: 52 |
Posted: 11 March 2012 at 5:48am |
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THere is more to the parable in Luke 19:11-26. In the parable, it is about a king who is a hard man, and gives his servants money to use profitably while he is away. When he returns, two make him money but the third is afraid of the king and just hides the money. This angers the king and he takes the money away and gives it to another, saying he does not deserve it because he did not even put it in a bank for interest. Then the king says to bring those that did not want him as king to come and kill them in front of him. This is referring to the end times. If you read the book of Revelation, this occurs after everyone has had many opportunities to turn away from following the Antichrist. Finally Satan, the Antichrist and all those that follow them are thrown in to the pit of fire.
As for the money, we are all given "talents" to use for good. If we do not use them, God will not kill us for that. But we should use our gifts for good, not to make monetary profit. There are other parables saying this. (Ex: it is hard for the rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.) We all have one or more natural abilities to use for the betterment of all. Killing others goes against this. This is not a talent. Thou shall not kill. Jesus was againat it when Peter cut off the ear of the Roman soldier that was arresting him. Jesus healed the ear on the spot. Violence is not condoned but man will be man. God does not reward for killing others (take not suicide bombers).
As for Islam, we see today in Egypt and other places the push to remove the Christians. In Saudi Arabia, a cross is forbidden. In Iraq most of the Christians have left. In the Quran, the Christians must pay a fee to remain. Does this make any sense? And Jesus was a Jew. The Jews denied him, in spite of all he did (the many teachings and miracles) but it upset their desire for a king to come and kill their enemies. And they did not want to change their silly laws of doing works to get into heaven. And the Pharisees had too much power and did not want to lose it. We see all this behavior today time and time again. Denial of Jesus. Unfortunately the Muslims are doing the same thing, saying they honor Jesus but still denying him..
This is proof that God does not believe in settling things with violence. So terrorism and Jihad is not the answer. Mercy killings are a sin. No doubt about it. Only God can judge in spiritual matters. Muslims must embrace Christians and seek truth in open forum, and be aware that the Quran was written by man, not God. And it was not written by Muhammed. He could not write. Many people had inputs. People were interviewed about what Muhammed said. We know that people have different perceptions and memory. Ask someone what happened in an accident and you get many answers. At least the bible has multiple witnesses with their name. And there is more and more findings of old manuscripts that back it up.
The crusades were a different time. People are still battling over Jerusalem. Note that this is all Non-Christian fighting- Jews vs Muslims. If Muslims were peaceful, there would be no issue. Muslims are let in to France, Sweden, etc. What do they do? Institute Sharia law, go against local laws, start honor killing, violence, etc.
And the burning of the Qurans- is it worth killing others over? Today they are a dime a dozen. Printers create them cheaply. It is man made, printed paper. There is nothing holy about that. Replace it with another when damaged. Throw the old one away. Man should not worship the book itself. This is like worshiping an idle. Not pleasing to God. Common sense.... is not so common. Edited by Empiricist - 11 March 2012 at 6:06am |
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Hughes
Guest Group
Joined: 31 January 2012 Status: Offline Points: 69 |
Posted: 10 March 2012 at 9:03pm |
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The comparison to Christianity doesn't help your situation since Jesus never taught his followers to kill, which Muhammed did do. Now, if your region of the world doesn't have these "false" muslims (for lack of a better term), and the violence that goes with it, then I'm happy to hear that. However, what I have observed is the "true" muslims often get shouted down or worse, by these "false" muslims, which leads in the end, to a group led by force and violence. So, while you may argue that Islam isn't spread in your country by the sword now, it certainly was in the beginning by Muhammed. |
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Chrysalis
Senior Member
Joined: 25 November 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2033 |
Posted: 10 March 2012 at 2:49am |
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Well, Hughes obviously has made his mind up. In that case, we have done our job by explaining our beliefs to him... he can go on believing what he wants to.
Dayem, JazakAllah Khair for your responses. I found them informative myself. I suggest that we not waste our time engaging him further on this issue. As if what he thinks or believes actually changes reality! I am all for engaging in discussions, but when someone (Hughes) says: "The Islamic states that are putting these people to death use your prophets statements in their books of Law. So maybe you should explain to them that they are taking him out of context. Until then it remains clear that Islam is spread by the use of force. " Then how else can we help him? |
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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Dayem
Senior Member
Joined: 23 August 2005 Status: Offline Points: 520 |
Posted: 09 March 2012 at 12:39pm |
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I have got a gut feeling you are being intentionally funny. First of all, 'you' didn't ask anything, all you did was copy paste an argument from a known islamophobe site. When I have answered all your points, in detail, all you have done is repeat your question! What, are we going round in circles?
Are you for real ! Were you expecting me to answer in 'Yes/No' only? Period? Well you should have mentioned that, I never leave my answer without an explanation, leaves room for ambiguity.Anyway, I do apologize for wasting your precious time, hoping you may learn better than to trust any random statement from anti islamic sources..Sarcasm intended.
Again you are going back in circle. If you remember you started your discussion with honor killing. And I told you that there are some Muslim, who do wrong just as there are Christian who do wrong, but there maybe nothing in scripture to support them. So yes, if a Muslim country kills a peaceful apostate, who is not plotting against the country or spreading corruption, then they are doing wrong, since it is against Qur'an.
I live in India, here we have Shariah law for Muslims in some respect, but complete freedom of religion. So you want me to pack my bags, go to those country who are taking prophet's statement out of context and 'explain' them...seriously man, are you for real ?! We live in Earth, this planet has 200+ country, many of them ruled by greedy, capitalistic, and crazy leaders who for personal gratification are ready to kill fellow humans as well as sell their own states. Did I mention Majority of these Country has Christian brethren...how about you start a tour first?
Another great logic. What you are saying is that if Islamic States kills apostates then they are SPREADING Islam? How? Apostate are ex-Muslims already, if you kill them or not kill them, how does it affect the number of Muslims in anyway? Spread by force means forcing someone to convert, like what early Christian did to Jews, or what Spanish Inquisition did to Muslims and Jews, or what happened in Philippines.
A fair use of tu quoque, don't you agree? Edited by Dayem - 09 March 2012 at 12:41pm |
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"the mooslims! they're heeere!"
LOONWATCH.COM |
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xx__Ace__xx
Senior Member 
Joined: 01 June 2010 Status: Offline Points: 100 |
Posted: 08 March 2012 at 10:23pm |
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No, it is a practical impossibility for Islam to have high conversion rates among even non-muslim countries in this day and age if it is spread over fear or force. I don't really think that's all that hard to understand. Furthermore, if you have actually gathered stuff from an anti-Islamic source, then that's the problem. That's something which affects credibility, especially in the case of a cause like yours. Doing that means you already believed that Islam is being spread by force or fear, before you had even checked if that happened to be true. That is bias. Not something a non-biased person would do, he/she would verify from a neutral source before accusing. The Quran does not state to kill. What you probably have done is merely point out out-of-context verses, just as many do. What you need to do is to actually bother to conceive the context being highlighted. Just as you attempted to with the Bible verse a member had referred you to. Edited by xx__Ace__xx - 08 March 2012 at 10:59pm |
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Was Islam spread by the sword?
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