Judaism and Islam

O my dear brother Howard, though your questions are addressed to bro Israfil, however, I may also like to respond to them.

In this, I would like to begin with a little bit of basics of Islam that appears unfamiliar to you as to most of my Christian brothers. In Islam, we never say that Allah needs us, but the fact is that we need Him, we need his mercy and we need his never-ending forgiveness of our own sins. Secondly, the message of all Prophets (from Adam to Moses to Jesus to Mohammad with all others in between) was the same i.e. to guide the mankind to Allah and Allah alone. With this premise, let us see how I can answer your questions.

Israfil, hello As you have stated that I ignored your proofs, we can go through them one by one Quote: [43.63] And when Isa came with clear arguments he said: I have come to you indeed with wisdom, and that I may make clear to you part of what you differ in; so be careful of (your duty to) Allah and obey me: So what ARE these clear arguments? Why does the Quran remain so silent about this?

I don�t think Quran is silent about this, as I have already mentioned that the basic objective of all messenger was essentially the same. Here it is in Quran � Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)."  (Chapter #2, Verse #136) �  In the same token, Quran says "(4) It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus).  (Chapter #3, Verse #3)� In essence, the clear arguments were about their psudo-monotheism and the real monotheism. Read on where I have provided the reference verse from Quran.

Quote: [61.6] And when Isa son of Marium said: O children of Israel! surely I am the apostle of Allah to you, verifying that which is before me of the Taurat and giving the good news of an Apostle who will come after me, his name being Ahmad, but when he came to them with clear arguments they said: This is clear magic. So had the Taurat been 'adulterated' or not when Isa spoke to the Jews? Did he tell them that the Taurat had been tampered with? If the Taurat hadn't been tampered with when Isa was a Prophet to the Jews then when did the Jews tamper with it?

O my dear brother, from where this issue of �tampering of Taurat� came in from these verses that you picked to ask? On the contrary, the verses show that Jesus came and said ��surely I am the apostle of Allah to you, verifying that which is before me of the Taurat����. Hence, your questions are totally misplaced to understand the verses.

 

Who is Ahmad? Muhammed?

Yap, this is the right question within the context of the verses that have been quoted. Yes, Ahmad is also another name of Prophet Mohammad given to him by his mother.

Again WHAT are the clear arguments that Isa used? The Quran says NOTHING about the CONTENT of these 'clear messages'.

To answer your question kindly read

 �57:27. Then, We sent after them Our Messengers, and We sent ��s� (Jesus) - son of Maryam (Mary), and gave him the Injeel (Gospel). And We ordained in the hearts of those who followed him compassion and mercy. But the monasticism which they invented for themselves, We did not prescribe for them, but (they sought it) only to please All�h therewith, but they did not observe it with the right observance. So We gave those among them who believed their (due) reward; but many of them are F�siq�n (rebellious, disobedient to All�h).�.

 Hence, they were accused of psuedu monasticism that they had invented out of the scriptures given to them plus their rebellious disobeidience. One would recall that even in the time of Moses, in his absence, this nation had started worshipping the golden calf for which they were severely rebuked by Moses on his arrival back.

And why did the Jews accuse Isa of using magic? We know that Musa was accused of using magic when he transformed a snake into a stick. But that episode is in the Torah...

Oh, I thought you are about to figure it out yourself. Nevertheless, I think all the miracles performed by Jesus were to convince the people of his Prophet hood. But, as the habit of this nation was, they failed to recognize him and shrugged off all such miracles on the false assertions of �magic� etc.

Quote: [61.14] O you who believe! be helpers (in the cause) of Allah, as~ Isa son of Marium said to (his) disciples: Who are my helpers in the cause of Allah? The disciples said: We are helpers (in the cause) of Allah. So a party of the children of Israel believed and another party disbelieved; then We aided those who believed against their enemy, and they became uppermost. Is that for Muslims what Isa's message can be reduced to? "Who are my helpers in the cause of Allah?" Is that all?

Yes, this is what I call the gist of the whole message, which is not only of Jesus but also of all the Prophets who came before him or after him. It can�t be described more precisely and elegantly as it is presented here.

Quote: [5.116] And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things. This verse simply proves that Mohammed had heard a garbled and erroneous version of the doctrine of the Trinity. The Trinity is composed of God, the Holy Ghost and Jesus. Mary is NOT part of the Trinity as the Koran would lead one to believe.

Probably you forgot to note that Quran�s foremost addressees are the people living in the surroundings of the messenger so that the message could be understood readily. It is fact that the Christian community living in that area venerated �Mary� as �Mother of God�, though not necessarily as a part of doctrine of �Trinity�. Kindly refer to �eastern orthodox church� and their beliefs about �Mary�.

Quote: 43:63. When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: "Now have I come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear Allah and obey me. SO WHAT ARE THE CLEAR SIGNS ?

Clear signs are the Miracles that he performed as a proof of his Prophet hood, same as the Prophets before him performed.

Quote: 4.157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure. Allah says here that rather he ascended to Empyrean So why did Allah let so many people be deluded?

Well my brother, not Allah but the arrogance of people through the work of Satan, had deluded them. If one may realize, we on this earth are under test. It is we who has the need for good deeds to pass this exam. Allah only provides guidance, but to take heed of, it is the sole prerogative of humans. Simply because, each individual human being shall be responsible for his own deeds and actions at the Day of Judgment when the result of this test shall be announced. No one carries the burden of any other human being, no concept of �original sin� etc.

Did Allah know that his sending a Kitab to Isa would end up as a total failure? Did he know that His efforts would not only result in a religion that practiced 'shirk' but that woudl be practised by more people than Islam?

I think I have already clarified your misconception. It is not Allah who need us but we who need Him. To your question specifically, Allah says in Quran �Those apostles We endowed with gifts, some above others: To one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs), and strengthened him with the holy spirit. If Allah had so willed, succeeding generations would not have fought among each other, after clear (Signs) had come to them, but they (chose) to wrangle, some believing and others rejecting. If Allah had so willed, they would not have fought each other; but Allah Fulfilleth His plan.  (Chapter #2, Verse #253)�

If I had been Allah I would have let the Jews alone - at least for a Muslim they were more rigourous monotheists than those who thought they were following Jesus. Shouldn't Allah have just simply 'skipped' Isa and gone straight to Mohammed?

Your false assumption of �rigorous monotheists� have been answered above where Allah opens up their pseudo- monotheism. On the more, how do you account for the fact that treatment which Jesus received from Jews was not unique as these Jews had the history of Killing their Prophets before Jesus. The example of John the Baptist may be recalled and similarly many more Prophets before him who came to guide the lost sheep of Israel and got killed by none others but by this nation. Your underlying assumption about Jews accused Jesus of blasphemy of �Son of God� is false and self-contradictory simply because how else the notion of �One God� could ever be retained within the Christianity. You yourself have acknowledged elsewhere on this forum that the notion of �Trinity� was invented some 300 years after Jesus.

If Allah did not know that his efforts would result in a shirk-practicing religion then he isn't omniscient. If he did know that, then why did he send Isa to the Jews in the first place?

I think all your assertions based on erroneous assumptions have been answered above. Once again recall that, its not Allah who need us, but we who need Him.

Edited by AhmadJoyia

Israfil, hello
As you have stated that I ignored your proofs, we can
go through them one by one

[43.63] And when Isa came with clear arguments he said: I have come to you indeed with wisdom, and that I may make clear to you part of what you differ in; so be careful of (your duty to) Allah and obey me:

So what ARE these clear arguments? Why does the
Quran remain so silent about this?

[61.6] And when Isa son of Marium said: O children of Israel! surely I am the apostle of Allah to you, verifying that which is before me of the Taurat and giving the good news of an Apostle who will come after me, his name being Ahmad, but when he came to them with clear arguments they said: This is clear magic.

So had the Taurat been 'adulterated' or not when
Isa spoke to the Jews? Did he tell them that the
Taurat had been tampered with? If the Taurat hadn't
been tampered with when Isa was a Prophet to the
Jews then when did the Jews tamper with it? Who is
Ahmad? Muhammed?

Again WHAT are the clear arguments that Isa used?
The Quran says NOTHING about the CONTENT of
these 'clear messages'. And why did the Jews
accuse Isa of using magic? We know that Musa was
accused of using magic when he transformed a
snake into a stick. But that episode is in the Torah...

[61.14] O you who believe! be helpers (in the cause) of Allah, as~ Isa son of Marium said to (his) disciples: Who are my helpers in the cause of Allah? The disciples said: We are helpers (in the cause) of Allah. So a party of the children of Israel believed and another party disbelieved; then We aided those who believed against their enemy, and they became uppermost.

Is that for Muslims what Isa's message can be
reduced to? "Who are my helpers in the cause of
Allah?" Is that all?

[5.116] And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things.

This verse simply proves that Mohammed had heard
a garbled and erroneous version of the doctrine of
the Trinity. The Trinity is composed of God, the Holy
Ghost and Jesus. Mary is NOT part of the Trinity as
the Koran would lead one to believe.

43:63. When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: "Now have I come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear Allah and obey me.

SO WHAT ARE THE CLEAR SIGNS ?

4.157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure. Allah says here that rather he ascended to Empyrean

So why did Allah let so many people be deluded?
Did Allah know that his sending a Kitab to Isa would
end up as a total failure? Did he know that His efforts
would not only result in a religion that practiced
'shirk' but that woudl be practised by more people
than Islam? If I had been Allah I would have let the
Jews alone - at least for a Muslim they were more
rigourous monotheists than those who thought they
were following Jesus. Shouldn't Allah have just
simply 'skipped' Isa and gone straight to
Mohammed?

If Allah did not know that his efforts would result in a
shirk-practicing religion then he isn't omniscient. If
he did know that, then why did he send Isa to the
Jews in the first place?



Edited by howard

Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

I havnt read through this in its entirety but from what i understood of Howards earlier posts i should point this out.

The Concept of a trinity is forign to the Bible you will not find it mentioned specificly anywhere, but as the chritian scholars explain it comes from the culmination of the understanding of a number of passages.

It did not come about untill much later than the time of jesus and the first christians never heard of such a thing, so questioning/comparing the theology of Islam to jewish and thus christianity is pointless, the common  teaching is tawhid oneness of god were it varies is the later christian teaching of the trinity.


Edited by rami

Israfil wrote: Howard I've constantly had battles with people like you....You're constanting questing just to refute Islam is known therefore there is nothing for me to say. If you sincerely disagree with Islam fine but constantly trying to refute Islamic principle is pointless. If you disagree how about "To you your way and to me mine." �

Israfil, hello
Well obviously if one disagrees with the tenets of a
religion or a belief system, then one will try to refute
it. Don't Muslims try to refute Hinduism, Buddhism,
atheism, Christianity etc? A problem often occurs
when people with different if not opposing beliefs
resort to personal abuse in order to 'argue' their
position. I do not use such methods. Now, Muslims
here by quoting certain Koranic verses have tried to
show that Mohammed was illiterate . I examined the
verses in question in a calm and rational manner
and came to the conclusion that the ayat in question
do not prove that Mohammed was illiterate - btw
certain Muslims such as the Kharadjites also hold to
the opinion that Mohammed was not illiterate.

If you want to maintain that Islam is beyond rational
analysis and that your religion is just a matter of
faith, then fine. And in that case, yes, any rational
discussion becomes impossible