Islam and Ethics

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   Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

If that is your point of view herjihad then that is fine, what traditional muslims take issue with is when such people begin to spread there beliefs to others or speak for islam with authority, i dont mean discuss in the hope of understanding but rather asert.

You base your beliefe on your capacity to understand if you reject something that doesnt make sence to you, you should at least Question whether your asumptions or base principles about a matter are correct or even how you percieve a thing is correct.

In reality you limit your self by your IQ (whether it is 140 or 120) and stop short of assuming that something is beyond your capacity, which is a natural thing to assume as not every person is a genious or has the IQ to understand deep and complex issues.

Allah says in the Quran

chapter 31 verse 27 

And if all the trees

On earth were pens

And the Ocean (were ink),

With seven Oceans behind it

To add to its (supply),

Yet would not the words

Of Allah be exhausted

(In the writing): for Allah

Is Exalted in power,

Full of Wisdom.

so if all this knowledge is in the Quran as it is the word of Allah why doesnt the average person like you or me see it?

just like rasul allah (sallah llahu alahi wa sallam) saw things we did not allah has given some people knowledge we have not been given.

"Allah will exalt those who believe among you, and those who 
              have been granted knowledge to high ranks."

(Qur'an)
"Allah will raise up, to (suitable) ranks and (degrees), those 
              of you who believe and who have been granted knowledge. And Allah 
              is well-acquainted with all you do."

(Qur'an, Al-Mujadilah 58:11)
which does not mean blind following, it means following those who the remainder of the scholars have agreed upon.
How do you tell who is rightly guided and who isnt? it is by looking at who is following them, for example you may hear about a person who his followers are claiming he is extremely knowledgable and he knows better than others but when you look at other scholars they do not hold his views in high regard. On the other hand you may come across a scholar who is said to be extrememly knowledgable by his followers and when you look at scholars of his calibr they agree that his opinion is valid even though they them self do not agree with him or follow his method.
this is the diffrenec between a leader of a sect and a rightly guided scholar, that it is those scholars who do not follow him or his teachings agree that he is a rightly guided indavidual. You will find this throughout the history of islam.

finaly, something may not make sence to you but it makes perfect sence to others but neither are a criterion for it being right or wrong as our view is limited while Allah is not. A scholar atempts to put foward the view of Allah and his prophet not his own so following of something that doesnt make sence to you is not relavent if you are atempting to put what Allah and his prophet say above our own opinion the issue now becomes which opinion about what allah and his prophet have said is most correct.

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rami Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Moderator Group Male Joined: 01 March 2000 Status: Offline Points: 2549	Post Options Post Reply Quote rami Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: Islam and Ethics Posted: 20 December 2005 at 11:17pm
	Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem If that is your point of view herjihad then that is fine, what traditional muslims take issue with is when such people begin to spread there beliefs to others or speak for islam with authority, i dont mean discuss in the hope of understanding but rather asert. You base your beliefe on your capacity to understand if you reject something that doesnt make sence to you, you should at least Question whether your asumptions or base principles about a matter are correct or even how you percieve a thing is correct. In reality you limit your self by your IQ (whether it is 140 or 120) and stop short of assuming that something is beyond your capacity, which is a natural thing to assume as not every person is a genious or has the IQ to understand deep and complex issues. Allah says in the Quran chapter 31 verse 27 And if all the trees On earth were pens And the Ocean (were ink), With seven Oceans behind it To add to its (supply), Yet would not the words Of Allah be exhausted (In the writing): for Allah Is Exalted in power, Full of Wisdom. so if all this knowledge is in the Quran as it is the word of Allah why doesnt the average person like you or me see it? just like rasul allah (sallah llahu alahi wa sallam) saw things we did not allah has given some people knowledge we have not been given. "Allah will exalt those who believe among you, and those who have been granted knowledge to high ranks." (Qur'an) "Allah will raise up, to (suitable) ranks and (degrees), those of you who believe and who have been granted knowledge. And Allah is well-acquainted with all you do." (Qur'an, Al-Mujadilah 58:11) which does not mean blind following, it means following those who the remainder of the scholars have agreed upon. How do you tell who is rightly guided and who isnt? it is by looking at who is following them, for example you may hear about a person who his followers are claiming he is extremely knowledgable and he knows better than others but when you look at other scholars they do not hold his views in high regard. On the other hand you may come across a scholar who is said to be extrememly knowledgable by his followers and when you look at scholars of his calibr they agree that his opinion is valid even though they them self do not agree with him or follow his method. this is the diffrenec between a leader of a sect and a rightly guided scholar, that it is those scholars who do not follow him or his teachings agree that he is a rightly guided indavidual. You will find this throughout the history of islam. finaly, something may not make sence to you but it makes perfect sence to others but neither are a criterion for it being right or wrong as our view is limited while Allah is not. A scholar atempts to put foward the view of Allah and his prophet not his own so following of something that doesnt make sence to you is not relavent if you are atempting to put what Allah and his prophet say above our own opinion the issue now becomes which opinion about what allah and his prophet have said is most correct.
	Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.

herjihad Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 26 January 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2473	Post Options Post Reply Quote herjihad Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 20 December 2005 at 9:57pm
	Bismillah, I decided to answer in the other thread because the other people made relevant comments as well. Take a peek over there! Yes, it's hard to choose a religion, and easy to reject one. As a rebel against preformed forms, I understand this very well. I walk to the beat of a different drummer. Islaam answers many questions for me. But to follow other people blindly and their interpretations is not in my nature. I have to contemplate the thing myself. Shock, dismay say the formal followers of the forms herein! I didn't reject a faith based on my logical mind to accept one based on illogical conclusions! When you consider the Quraan for the time it was sent, there could have been nothing more pertinent, vital and beautiful. When you contemplate the implications of this idea, and how the All-Encompassing Lord who created us designed this book and guided the people of this earth througout our time on it, it leads you to Faith in the Glorious, Merciful Allah. Now, many disagree with me. But my faith is for me, not them. They can follow the shariah as they please. They can accept every single hadith, saying, from a school of thought as true. But I don't. When it doesn't make any sense, it doesn't meet my criteria of acceptance of it! Who AM I to say this? Just a simple, humble woman whom God chose to open her heart to Faith in His Existence, As you so eloquently described Him. That is the most important thing to me, and I believe to God, after all. As Maryga said in the other thread, we must acknowledge and be grateful to the One, the Eternal Lord, and attribute the beauty of this world and our success in it, to Him. This leads to piety, humility, kindness, charity, and so many other vital human traits that God has embued us with and blesses us for.
	Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.

Nima Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: 29 November 2005 Status: Offline Points: 39	Post Options Post Reply Quote Nima Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 20 December 2005 at 5:05pm
	I see Herjihad you wont reply to my post

Nima Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: 29 November 2005 Status: Offline Points: 39	Post Options Post Reply Quote Nima Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 13 December 2005 at 10:10am
	Forgive Herjihad if I didnt answer your question now to answer your inquiry what do I think about God. Well although I don't know if he exist or not but from my own understanding if I were to believe I'd take the approach of an ancient thinker who states?: "God is beyond comprehension and reason, and because he is beyond reason even pious men are driven mad." I remember showing my students Mars when its orbit was close to ours about 1 1/2 ago and I remember one student saying "For such a great planet is seems like a spec of light in the telescope." Now imagine a planet roughly over 24,000 miles wide. A simple creation of a designer or Creator and I would imagine such a being not measured in size of course is greater than that! To me I think God is beyond this although I don't know if he is beyond emotion but I know that our understanding of God is beyond our own knowledge. I believe that no religion can contain him. No book can glorify him no matter how true it is. No prayer can exalt God to the fullest. No language is holy enough to relate to God as most Arabic speaking people would think. No books can be written to exalt God enough no people can express enough perfection to God, nothing. Not because this God is so perfect and so great that even the miniscule human cannot connect but because of the very simple reason of our understanding. I'd just be contempt with believeing in God's existence without religion. I believe that morality is learned not by religion but by environemnt and experience and by our senses. this is what I think

herjihad Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 26 January 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2473	Post Options Post Reply Quote herjihad Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 13 December 2005 at 9:46am
	*Bismillah,* *Nima, you didn't answer my questions about what YOU think about God. Could you?* Some people want you to join their faith as a competitive thing so that they can brag about their conversion of you. I know because I grew up Mormon. Other people's intentions and motivations don't need to effect our concept of God, and how that concept motivates, inspires, and enlightens us. *So, could you answer the questions I posed above about how YOU personally envision God?*
	Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.

Community Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Guest Group Joined: 19 May 2005 Status: Offline Points: 1135	Post Options Post Reply Quote Community Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 13 December 2005 at 8:58am
	But if I die and "Islam" is not my religion I go to hell regardless of my good deeds. Why use an arabic word in the middle of an english sentence? "but if i die and engaging the peace/submission for the sake of peace was not my way(religion?) then my works will be of no value in the hereafter. Is it not the goal of every faithful to gain the peace with The God through their worship and good deeds? Yes having faith in Him means being grateful to Him for He sustains everything and everyone and out of this people should do good works, and if they can not be grateful then they better fear Him and work out of that. And He is The Creator of even fear in mankind and He is most worthy to His creation so He has the most right to ones fear and then He knows best what to do with it.

Nima Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: 29 November 2005 Status: Offline Points: 39	Post Options Post Reply Quote Nima Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 13 December 2005 at 8:30am
	That is the whole point why religion turns me off to the whole concept. The sciences of temporality makes it difficult to prove the existence of God. I do not say that, by chance all things exist! What I say is that the formulation of certain beliefs is amazingly hard because a) either they are rleigiously motivated or by environment or b) there is a type of influence involved by a). According to Islam even if I believe in one God yet, do not subscribe to a religious belief it is called an "invention" or I believe the Arabic term is Bid'ah. I find the approach hypocritical especially if the whole concept of Islam is monotheism this is the same with Christianity. As far as for Judaism what I've seen in their faith is that they don't hold any other religious faith in a type of "hell fire" light. They have certain rules from what I understand mankind can follow. these rules are 8 and basic and I guess follow from the Bible. From my understanding so long as you follow those simple 8 rules then you can share in the "world to come." According to Muslims you have to be Muslim to go to heaven or even if not Muslim of the three monotheistic faiths. But Muslims fail to answer the question of those who do not share that faith. Why should I believe in God who at first was thoughtful enough to create me through the process of generation and then condemn me to hellfire because I don't want to share in "his" religion? Religion. How small of a word is that in comparison to God? God in my opinion and understanding of course is beyond all human comprehension and although its possible that the world has a spiritual nature its hard when the world has thousands of religious institutions and all say they are right and the other goes to hell. HERES WHAT GETS ME ABOUT ISLAM. God in Islam is all-merciful But if I die and Islam is not my religion I go to hell regardless of my good deeds. Mankind has freewill But if I convert to Islam out of "fear" for this then my conversion is not sincere thus nullifying my conversion. If I don't convert then I'm condemned to hell if Islam is not my religion. Yea like I wanna believe in a God like that!

Community Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Guest Group Joined: 19 May 2005 Status: Offline Points: 1135	Post Options Post Reply Quote Community Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 December 2005 at 6:38pm
	If you know that there is always something greater and that He is greater, then i wonder wether you can ever truely understand Him who is greater then anything, even our understanding. (and i can assure you our understanding is really "undeveloped" or as some say "limited")