American Christian new member: my views

ProudSlave wrote: Caring Heart - You mentioned "Democracy"; "Freedom"; and "America" (U.S. I assume, not South or Central). You do realize that the United States is NOT A Democracy, right? It is a Constitutional Republic. A Democracy does NOT result in freedom, it results in mob rule. As soon as any particular group holds a majority, their will can be legally imposed on the minority. This is why the Constitution of our Republic contains what are referred as "negative rights" (a list of things that can NOT be done to the citizenry by the government, even if the majority thinks it is ok) Just wanted to clear that up :-)

Pretty much right: an unfettered democracy is mob rule with extra paperwork.
The quality of a democracy (or a constitutional republic with (some) democratic voting process) depends on the degree to which the electorate id educated and informed.
It also operates with the legal fiction that for this purpose all opinions are equally valid.
Which they are not, really.

"Democracy" is not a miracle word of liberty or perfection.

Having said that, compared to most if not all the other options going around, it's hardly worse.
For one thing it offers a route to changing authority and government without violence and bloodshed.

The compatibility between Islam and democratic processes is low to minimal, as it is anathema that the public should have a deciding vote for something which might be unIslamic.

if you compare the drastically low rates of theft in saudi arabia compared to the united states where a car is stolen something like every 17 seconds i feel that critics coming from western countries (I'm from a western country myself) should realise that in islam the system works compared to yours which clearly is failing miserably. As for your question as to whether a starving theif stealing to feed his family would have his hand amputated the answer is no, there is allowances in the sharia for such circumstances ie in times of famine the punishment for theft is suspended. I would also consider womens rights in the west to be somewhat of a myth in my country you just have to go to town on a friday night to realise this. The way women are treated, verbally and sometimes physically abused by drunken *****s is appalling. Some of the things i've heard makes my skin crawl i would never treat a lady like that. Islam came and protected the rights of women outlining clearly strict guidelines dealing with their welfare. I'm not saying bad stuff doesn't go down in some so called muslim countries in the world but you will find in a lot of cases this is people trying to pass culture off as islam ie women being prevented from education (One of the biggest scholars in islam was a woman) Or honor killings (In most cases the perpertrators would be executed for murder), I hope this clarifies somewhat,
eesa

dennyg wrote: I'm Christian, but grew up with two very good Sunni friends from junior high to today. I believe myself to better understand Islam than most Americans and most non-Muslims. So any views you may disagree with in those regards are based on interacting with them and their families as well as a few debates with my friends, sometimes heated ones. I accept Jesus as my savior, but that is really the only thing in the Bible I accept on faith alone. If science or archaeology suggest a biblical error then facts should not be ignored. I believe in evolution, the Big Bang, and that Earth is billions of years old. I see the story of Noah's Ark I see as exaggeration of a regional flood event through years of storytelling until it became mythology. All myths have a truth at their core, and too many cultures share similar flood stories to think its a completely false tale, but there are too many holes to think it's highly accurate. My belief in science does not interfere with my faith. I see evolution as God's beautifully complex method of creation and proliferation of species. I think even God cannot simply will something into existence. Through the natural laws He created the Earth was formed and in time so were we. Religion should not play ANY role in society's laws. I know that Muslims see this as almost blasphemy due to the importance of Sharia but religion is too polarizing to use in lawmaking. Atheists have morals too, and secular morality is more universal in my mind. I can't be comfortable with not allowing gay people marriage because a 1000+ year old book said an orientation that science suggests is natural and at least somewhat genetic is a sin. Many animals of higher intelligence display homosexual behavior. It should be okay for humans. I support all people in the right to worship how they please as long as it doesn't harm others. Even though I may take issue with human rights due to some Quran passages at least some, in the Middle East it's their land and their rules. I will protest any attempt to bring Sharia on the citizens of other countries who don't want it. If you move to a country then you follow the laws in place. If you want to rewrite the country's constitution because of your religion then don't go. Some Muslims attempt to make Sharia part of the laws of a country they immigrate to in order to more easily follow the Quran. I understand the desire there, but the Quran also emphasizes not imposing Islam and its laws on anyone who isn't open to it. I believe that God, Allah, and Yahweh are the same deity. We all worship the same god with differing methods. Violence between these three is particularly sad to me because I think we're all so similar. I'm not saying that the Middle East should change drastically. That's not my place to say. And trying to impose democracy on people who resist it is just as bad as a muslim trying to force Sharia. The culture of the West and much of the Middle East is too different to pretend that either would work in the other region. Sorry if it's long. Again no offense meant. I have great respect for non violent members of these three faiths, as well as atheists and other world religions. These are my personal opinions and I am not saying that everyone should think as I do. Any thoughts, questions or anything else are welcome

Greetings dennyg,

I agree with most of what you said, except, I do not think that YHWH and allah are the same.  (I don't know if I should elaborate.)

I also agree that democracy can not be forced, however, for me, I see that
to choose islam is to choose oppression
I can never see making that choice - I can never see surrender to islam
to choose democracy is to choose freedom
the west stands for freedom - liberty - self determination - not to be ruled by tyrants

I believe that when people are oppressed and we want to free them from that oppression, that is serving the Creator and His creation... it is seeking to serve good.
 I also believe this only comes through education and exposure to other cultures and understanding what it means to have freedom.  People must desire freedom for themselves... however, the number of people that have immigrated to western nations I believe testifies that these people do have the desire for self-determination, for freedom, for education, for advancement... if they only knew how to break from the yoke of the ideology with which they were raised.  (i.e., come to Christ )

When people want to put others under oppression, claiming that it is the will of God to do so... I do not, can not, see that that serves the Creator.  The Creator gave us free will, and the only way to come to Him is freely of our own will... so we must be given the freedom to do so... to choose of our own accord.

You asked for thoughts, there are mine. 
asalaam and blessings to you,
Caringheart
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added note:
I came across a old thread, 'can america and islam co-exist', it caused me to ask a more relevant question;

Can islam and democracy co-exist?
Can islam be democratic?
I remember reading an article a year or so ago that talked about islam being democratic... even being the first democratic society.
Is it possible?
Can islam be democratic?



Edited by Caringheart - 21 February 2015 at 3:01pm

Thanks for your post