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Corrupted Doctrine
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DavidC View Drop Down
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    Posted: 19 June 2006 at 5:39am
The Bible we have today is the same one Muhummad had, and the same one recommended in the Qu'ran. 

All these so called corruptions, edits, glosses whatever do not matter one iota.  The Bible had been codified for centuries before the Qu'ran and Muhummad. 

The Qu'ran and Hadith say read the Taurat, Injeel and Psalms.  They do NOT say read the Taurat, Injeel and Psalms from several hundred years ago.  Yes, they have changed and yes, God and Muhummad knew that when they told Muslims to respect them as holy books.
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BMZ View Drop Down
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Annie,

From you:The Jews do not blame Christians for forging the Scriptures.  Where do you come up with these blatant lies?

Yes! The Jews do. The second sentence from you in above is darn insulting, Annie. Just google and you will find heaps of the truth.

Annie:If Muslims blame and accuse Christians and Jews of changing God's message,  where is your proof?  Because the Qur'an contradicts the Holy Bible?  The same claim can be made of the Muslims.  The Muslims changed God's original message from the Holy Bible.

The proof is in the Bible. We read so many contradictions within the Bible. That is proof in itself. To, Qura'aan the word Bible is unheard of and Qur'aan only mentions Torah and Injeel. God's original message was,"Your Lord God is One". Qur'aan just repeated and reaffirmed that.  

BMZ: I would not say that the Christian Bible and the Jewish Scriptuers have been corrupted. I would say they have been forged.

Annie: And you would be wrong.

BMZ: I am always right. I quote from Scriptures and compare.

I gave The best example of the forgery:

Jewish Scripture: "The young woman shall give birth to a child and shall call him Immanuel". No young woman in the history of Israel gave birth to Immanuel as prophecised and that never happened. Jewsih Scripture is slilent on this.

Christian Scripture: "The virgin will give birth to a child and will call  him Immanuel". The virgin disobeyed God by not calling the child Immanuel.

Annie: Look, BMZ, just because you can't understand the Scriptures does not make them "forged."   I put the explanation on the level of a child (which you asked for) and you still don't understand it.

BMZ: There is really nothing to understand, Annie. It is all written in English. Had you put the explanation on the level of a child, I would have understood it, but you could not and we moved on.

Annie: I could make quite a case of the Muslims "forging" the stories in the Qur'an because some of them are so different.  Your accusations are unfounded and insulting to Christians on this site.  I respect your right to believe in the Qur'an and Muhammad and the Hadiths.  That is your choice.  I would appreciate it if you would please start showing respect for the Christian and Jewish Scriptures.

I believe that I write and discuss inter-faith matters very respectfully. It is just that either you possibly did not understand or read my thoughts well.

Annie: Granted this is an Islamic site but that is no excuse for insulting your guests.  You should hang your head in shame.

Annie, the second part of your above comment was not in good taste. This is a place to discuss and argue. I feel sorry for you that you felt it that way. I write the facts and these matter most.



Edited by bmzsp
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AnnieTwo View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Mishmish Mishmish wrote:

These points have been discussed here before.

As said before, bring forth ALL of the gospels, not just those handpicked by the Nicean Council, and let people decide which are true and which are not.


The Nicean Council did not choose the gospels.  The books of the NT were formerly accepted after the Nicean Council.  You can read the books that did not make it into the Canon on the Internet.  Most of them compliment the NT on the important issues, that he died and rose again; others make Jesus more divine than the Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.  Others were written much too late to be considered canon and were Gnostic.  Gnosticism was in full force in the mid-second century.  One has Jesus bringing a child back to life, one has Jesus speaking as an infant and saying that he is the Son of God and the Savior of the World, one has Jesus making life from clay, one says that his bathwater as an infant was capable of making miracles.

Originally posted by Mishmish Mishmish wrote:

Obviously this cannot be done, because they contradict. So, somewhere, something was changed. Even theologians who study the ancient texts agree that changes have been made. One word can change the meaning of a whole chapter.


See above.  There have been scribal errors, glosses and the like.  All can be traced and corrected.  A good Bible will note what is not in an early manuscript.  All information is available.  Nothing affects Christian doctrine.  In addition, the Gospel we have today is the same one be had before Muhammad was born.

Originally posted by Mishmish Mishmish wrote:

And whether or not you believe that the Quran was speaking explicitly of the interpretation of the gospels, that should be enough. No where in the Old Testament or the New Testament does it state Jesus is God, or that there is a trinity. These concepts were added later.


No, Mishmish, they were not "added later."  The concept is there in the Scriptures.  All of Jesus' apostles believed that he was divine; even the Jews believed that Jesus was claiming divinity.  The puzzle was, "How can that be?"

Originally posted by Mishmish Mishmish wrote:


Jesus never said he was God. If this is not a corruption of what Jesus said, then it is at the least a fabrication.


Haven't we been on this merry-go-round before?

Originally posted by Mishmish Mishmish wrote:


You ask why wasn't Allah specific when saying the Jews called Uzair a son of God, well, I ask why didn't God say that he is a trinity.


I asked you first. lol  I think that God gave us quite a few clues as to His tri-une nature.  God gives us as much as we can understand depending on the circumstances.  The people in the early days of the Hebrew scriptures were having enough trouble believing that there was only one God, let alone the nature of that one God.

<>
Originally posted by Mishmish Mishmish wrote:



Why didn't Jesus say that he was God?


He did by the claims that he made.

Originally posted by Mishmish Mishmish wrote:



In the Quran, God says in no uncertain terms, there is only one God.


The Bible says in no uncertain terms that there is only on God.  Christians believe this.

Originally posted by Mishmish Mishmish wrote:



Jesus was not my son, literally or figuratively, nor was he a God or the God.


Then how do you explain that God calls King David His son?  If Allah is YHVH, then we have a major contradiction.  YHVH calls all of Israel His "son."

Originally posted by Mishmish Mishmish wrote:



Nor is there a trinity. This is stated very clearly.


The Qur'an says "don't say three," it does not say "trinity."  Trinity was an added word by translators.  Where in the Qur'an does it define the true believe of Christians and condemn it? 

Originally posted by Mishmish Mishmish wrote:


<>
I believe the Bible also states very clearly that there is only One God. That you should not make anything or anyone equal to God. But, it does not state clearly anywhere that Jesus is God, or that God is a trinity. Why hasn't God made this clear?


Answered above.

Annie
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4

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Mishmish View Drop Down
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These points have been discussed here before.

As said before, bring forth ALL of the gospels, not just those handpicked by the Nicean Council, and let people decide which are true and which are not.

Obviously this cannot be done, because they contradict. So, somewhere, something was changed. Even theologians who study the ancient texts agree that changes have been made. One word can change the meaning of a whole chapter.

And whether or not you believe that the Quran was speaking explicitly of the interpretation of the gospels, that should be enough. No where in the Old Testament or the New Testament does it state Jesus is God, or that there is a trinity. These concepts were added later.

Jesus never said he was God. If this is not a corruption of what Jesus said, then it is at the least a fabrication.

You ask why wasn't Allah specific when saying the Jews called Uzair a son of God, well, I ask why didn't God say that he is a trinity. Why didn't Jesus say that he was God? In the Quran, God says in no uncertain terms, there is only one God. Jesus was not my son, literally or figuratively, nor was he a God or the God. Nor is there a trinity. This is stated very clearly. I believe the Bible also states very clearly that there is only One God. That you should not make anything or anyone equal to God. But, it does not state clearly anywhere that Jesus is God, or that God is a trinity. Why hasn't God made this clear?



Edited by Mishmish
It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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AnnieTwo View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Mishmish Mishmish wrote:

What the Quran says:


2:113 The Jews say: "The christians have naught (to stand) upon; and the christians say: "The Jews have naught (To stand) upon." Yet they (Profess to) study the (same) Book. Like unto their word is what those say who know not; but Allah will judge between them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment.


This verse is meaningless unless the Qur'an says what they disagreed upon, but the Qur'an is not talking about a "corrupted" or "forged" text.  It is talking about interpretation.

Originally posted by Mishmish Mishmish wrote:


2:135 They say: "Become Jews or christians if ye would be guided (To salvation)." Say thou: "Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with Allah."


I have no idea who Allah is referring to here; it certainly isn't the Jews and it certainly isn't the Christians.  The Jews and the Christians have not joined other gods to God.

Originally posted by Mishmish Mishmish wrote:


9:30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!


The Jews claim that they never called Uzair a son of God.  Even if some small sect did, the Qur'an has blamed them all.  Why wasn't Allah specific?

As I have said so many times, calling Jesus the son of God is not in itself a claim to divinity.  The "son of God" is another title for the Messiah.  Even the Qur'an calls Jesus the Messiah.

Besides that the God of the Jews and the Christians claims that He Himself has sons, not biological sons, but sons in the figurative sense.  I believe that Surah 9:30 is speaking of a literal son and if it is then, well you can draw your own conclusions.

Annie




Edited by AnnieTwo
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4

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AnnieTwo View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Mishmish Mishmish wrote:

Who judged the Holy Bible 98.5% accurate?


Textual experts in Koine Greek, Latin, Hebrew, and Aramaic, etc., and they aren't all Christians.  Some have tried to prove the New Testament wrong, but after studying, many became Christians and one of them said that the texts could stand up in a court of law.

Everything is scrutinized and it is out in the open.  In the past some have questioned some historical facts and archeology has proved the Bible correct.

Every Christian should be satisfied in the authenticity of the Holy Bible.

Annie
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4

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Israfil View Drop Down
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Points: 3984 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Israfil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 June 2006 at 2:54pm
The 98.5% accuracy I believe she is discussing is historical aspect......If it was the religious/spiritual she would be more inclined to say 100% rather 98.5%  Also Patty the question my apology was aimed at towards my Muslim brethren rather than our co-religionist...
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DavidC View Drop Down
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But I think they were close friends!
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