Afghanistan

B: Tell me how this comment is off...the Taliban ruled by fear, intimidation and murder.  No wonder when they threatened the poppy growers such spectacles as I described worked to keep the growing down...how tough is this to understand and then to try to spin it into a derogatory commentary on me personally?  Why do this?  Why spin and spin like this?  Let's deal with facts and realities, shall we sir?

Ok brother, let this be the issue as you wish to discuss. You have described that Taliban ruled by fear, intimidation and murder. Let us analyse it through little more rationality than emotionally (keeping the 9/11 factor away).

So, as far as their government is concerned, though they had all the bad things that they did that we all (including my self) accuse them of, but one thing that must be admitted is, that their government really implemented the law, without any political baisness etc. One can ofcourse lable this law to any kind of "draconion" law etc, but remember that its their own law that we must pay respect to any independant country as per norms of international mutual respect.

B: That's not the truth brother.  The killing and murdering and maiming of others is not something that we need to respect!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1410061.stm

 No second country has any right to put their nose into their internal laws. Though we can critize them but we can't physically involve in their business to change their law untill or unless they themselves want to change it.

B: You're assuming that the Taliban were benign to those outside its borders (however heinous and horrible and murderous, abusive and violent they were to their own people)...I realize earlier that you mentioned 9/11 aside - but that is IMPOSSIBLE - it is part of reality and AQ is part of reality and the harboring of AQ naturally involved the whole world in Afghanistan's internal affairs as AQ had brutally slaughtered hundreds of innocent Africans in Dar al Salaam and Nairobi in '98 and '99..

Isn't it the ABC of democracy that we indebted to teach everyone. So, once you say they ruled with "intimidation, fear, and murder", I think, we are forgetting about our ABC of this lesson. Secondly, I don't know how can one call the implementation of law as "Murder" except through emotional rhetorics that our media has trumpted in our ears?

B: Are you saying they didn't murder people in open stadiums when they've been filmed doing so?  Don't you realize that murderous regimes take charge of countries sometimes - have we not learned from the Germans and the Russians these lessons?  There is no respecting that and why are you bringing up democracy in reference to the Taliban anyhow??  They're just absolutely diametrically opposite from democracy!

Now, coming to your allusion to the polls and hence freedom etc. Though, future of these events would essentially depend upon how long the allied forces are willing to stay "temporarily" over there (if not permanently), but the fact remain that history shows that "democracy" can't be implanted from outside but realised from within the society. Suffice is to know that barring few big cities of Afghanistan, or more specifically except the capital Kabul, there is hardly any place where people are yet ready to accept this concept.

B: And yet millions voted - what more than 20 million there and more close to 20 million in Iraq...millions are voting...and 25% of Afghanistan's loya jirga, or grand assembly, will be women...how can this not be progress and steps toward freedom and democracy and rule by the people as opposed to warlords...I realize that warlords are clinging on - but how long can they cling on with people voting and involved and moving into the 21st Century?  You say that people aren't willing to accept this - but what has been the alternative?  30 years war?  Are they willing to accept that?

As you rightly pointed out that a process of change of society can't be realised immediately, I would extend this to say that it takes centuries to change, but that too, provided the society itself want a change. Otherwise all implanted concepts would be rejected sooner the dose of chemotherapy (allied forces) is removed. I hope and wish that USA and its allies are not planning for the permanant occupation of the land. Are we? Are we in the making of yet another "Gotanamo bay" in Afghanistan? I don't think so. So, what is our purpose to over stay in that country? Where is our main objective to capture the head of the terrorist gone? In reality, it has gone to nowhere. Yes, all our efforst are to build strong Afghanistan, but was that really our main objective? I don't think so.

B: Can't you see that to have democracies rather than these unstable brutal "theocracies" is in itself achieving victory over terrorism...to have people by the 10s of millions voting in the Middle East - having their voices heard, building their countries, having a purpose in their lives besides blowing themselves up into some 'crusader' or worse some innocent person that will be broadcast (maybe and increasingly less likely) across some 'crusaders' TV set is just plain VICTORY in these matters...do you disagree that to infuse people groups and nations with purpose is not a successful strategy in the multi-pronged war against terrorism, battle for freedom and war against poverty?

If we couldn't maintain the law and order situation, just because we are compromising on our values, then its only futile to show the world as what temporary progress the country is making.

B: You say it's temporary - but it need not be temporary..to some extent it's in the hands of the Afghanis and Iraqis to decide and that is where it should be..

Ground facts remain that the poor people of that country were suffering from the atrocities of their warlords, and they are still doing so.

As you've pointed out, things are not utterly transformed in one instant in time...it will take time for all areas to improve...but there is hope now and much more involvement and the possibility of much more future involvement...Afghanis are proud people, to be sure and they will rise to this challenge...

You point toward the future, but don't estimate how far this future is? Are you talking of few years (a very improbable picture), or of few decades or of few centuries (most likely situation)? Yet, lets hope for the best.

You are correct - it may well take a very long time for the greatest of changes - complete equity and peace...but that does not mean we cannot all work toward that end together and with the heart of God in mind to that end..

b95000 wrote: AhmadJoyia wrote: I don't think sis Kim is suggesting "more people to die" rather its her astute observation about the ultimate fate of USSR and emergence of new states without much bloodshed as opposed to what has been witnessed in Afghanistan. Also, though my brother b95000 is apt in showing us the total voters to impress steady improvement in that country's political state, however, the human rights report is still pathetic where the same old warlords rule most of the land. On the more, the only thing which may go in the credit of former government of Afghanistan is the effective control of opium poppy crop, the basic ingredient of most of drugs produced in the world. It is said that "Afghanistan's opium poppy production reached record high levels in 2004,.......". Here is the complete report http://usinfo.state.gov/gi/Archive/2005/Mar/05-369889.html This is all happening when the American forces are still controlling the country. Is there any excuse for this? In a way, if one may view American forces as the biggest poppy growers of the world, it would not be very surprising.   Spin, twist, twist, spin...never viewing the positive, always highlighting the negative...interesting approach, that..does it feel intellectually fair and vigorous?

Viewing things from one eye is not a scholarly thing for most except few who want to live in dillusions.

B: You're looking yourself in the mirror as you say this, right?

As to opium growth, sure there will be trade-offs and the current government and the Coalition and UN are aware of the problem - however, security is a main issue ......

Oh, so you mean security in Afghanistan is still a problem even now? Hmm!! Do you have any clue as who else could be involved other than few remanants of Talibans? My dear, the same warlords are in power and the same old routine is in vogue. Nothing much has changed in that ill fated country except what your monocule would like to show you, though now the allied forces are in control.

B: Nothing much has changed?  Can that possibly be true when 12 MILLION people voted including 4 million women in the first election and who knows, 10 million in the second election - the first elections in 30 years...and yet, you opine, with eyes wide shut, that 'nothing much has changed.'  I see...thanks for proving your case to us..thanks for giving things a slight, little tiny bit of the time that has just passed underneath the warlords feet for things to actually and permanently change...they will change but no thanks to naysayers and do nothings like yourself, with all due respect.

........and that is another main issue and sure if people are scared to death or having death sentences over their heads they aren't going to risk the poppy growing...

Though I clearly don't support any regime, the fact is now the same people are in the delima of facing death for not growing Poppy for their warlords.

B: This will change, sometimes more slowly than we all would like, but it will change...slowly but surely and sometimes more quickly.  But it won't change is you demand it to change without acknowledging progress in other areas.  Simply quoting stats of the poppy trade at this stage means nothing other than that the poppy growing is still an issue...it is an issue that all parties are well aware of - as is the issue of warlords...but give things what, a decade, you cannot demand perfection after 3 years...this is unreasonable, no?  And begin to be fair - mention that it is a good thing to have 12 million people involved in the process...won't you?

but when you introduce due process and not some shooting of women throught the head in soccer stadiums, for instance, or chopping off body parts for public spectacle,........

What is this has to do with poppy crop? Hmm!! My brother is apt in congulmerating everything in the name of women's rights etc.

B: Tell me how this comment is off...the Taliban ruled by fear, intimidation and murder.  No wonder when they threatened the poppy growers such spectacles as I described worked to keep the growing down...how tough is this to understand and then to try to spin it into a derogatory commentary on me personally?  Why do this?  Why spin and spin like this?  Let's deal with facts and realities, shall we sir?

......... then there are certain trade-offs...I will take freedom in conjunction with responsibility over the gulags of the Taliban any day of the week...you won't?

What trade off with freedom? You mean no one knows who is growing this poppy crop and its real hard for the government to accuse them without evidence of doubt? I don't think this is the case. Everyone knows who are the culprits, but no one wants to displease the warlords in the "tradeoff" that they may turn to Taliban. It is this tradeoff that allies are selling the Opimum for the loyalities of these warlords.

B: We are talking about subtleties here and you are saying these things are obvious and plain.  The rule of law is much harder to establish than either extreme of legalized terror (Taliban) or anarchy (warlords)...those are easy paths...the subtle path is to establish a rule of law that honors all members of a society and leaves them solutions to their problems that don't include shooting people's brains out..

Oh, that's right, you're only seemingly interested in the negative side that props up your views...too bad that...

I hope, if nothing else, one would like change his monocule in the light of the above facts of life in the "liberated" Afghanistan. 

I don't think sis Kim is suggesting "more people to die" rather its her astute observation about the ultimate fate of USSR and emergence of new states without much bloodshed as opposed to what has been witnessed in Afghanistan.

Also, though my brother b95000 is apt in showing us the total voters to impress steady improvement in that country's political state, however, the human rights report is still pathetic where the same old warlords rule most of the land.

On the more, the only thing which may go in the credit of former government of Afghanistan is the effective control of opium poppy crop, the basic ingredient of most of drugs produced in the world. It is said that "Afghanistan's opium poppy production reached record high levels in 2004,.......". Here is the complete report http://usinfo.state.gov/gi/Archive/2005/Mar/05-369889.html

This is all happening when the American forces are still controlling the country. Is there any excuse for this? In a way, if one may view American forces as the biggest poppy growers of the world, it would not be very surprising.