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Truth_light24 View Drop Down

Senior Member

Joined: 13 January 2008
Location: Philippines
Status: Offline
Points: 270

Posted: 09 April 2008 at 3:45pm

Christians and Jews of today are Mushrikeen, they are involved in polytheism and committing SHIRK while the people of the book and Sabians Allah mentioned (2:62) are those Christians and Jews that follow the religion and original teachings of Prophet Moses and Prophet Jesus, those people who follow the religion of Prophet Abraham.

3:64. Say (O Muhammad): "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but All�h, and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides All�h. Then, if they turn away, say: "Bear witness that we are Muslims."

3:67. Ibr�him (Abraham) was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was a true Muslim Hanifa (Isl�mic Monotheism - to worship none but All�h Alone) and he was not of Al-Mushrik�n (See V.2:105).

3:68. Verily, among mankind who have the best claim to Ibr�him (Abraham) are those who followed him, and this Prophet (Muhammad) and those who have believed (Muslims). And All�h is the Wal� (Protector and Helper) of the believers.

2:62 Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in All�h and the Last Day (MUSLIMS refer to 3:64) and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

9:17 �It is not for the Mushrik�n (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of All�h), to maintain the Mosques of Allah (i.e. to pray and worship Allah therein, to look after their cleanliness and their building, etc.), while they witness against their ownselves of disbelief. The works of such are in vain and in Fire shall they abide.�

And those who annoy believing men and women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a glaring sin. Quran33:59

Hayfa

Senior Member
Senior Member

Female
Joined: 07 June 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2368

Posted: 10 April 2008 at 5:54am

Truth Light..

You need to show proof that Jewish people are polytheists. Have you been to temple lately or a Yeshiva??

I know quite a number of Jewish people and they pray to no other then God, have no statues etfc... Please explain what you mean...

I would in fact ague that many Othodox Jewish people are quite aamzing at following all of the laws handed down to them. Their 612 laws plus all the other oral ones is quite incredible...

Please show proof. I can see the argument to todays Christians (if they practice), but not of Jewish people. The vast majority of Jewish people only beleive in One God. A few people hug tres but cannot see what you are seeing.

Thanks

When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi

Truth_light24 View Drop Down

Senior Member

Joined: 13 January 2008
Location: Philippines
Status: Offline
Points: 270

Posted: 10 April 2008 at 6:05am

This is my proof why I say Jews and Christians are Polytheists, from the Quran itself, the very word of Allah.

9:30. And the Jews say: 'Uzair (Ezra) is the son of All�h, and the Christians say: Messiah is the son of All�h. That is a saying from their mouths. They imitate the saying of the disbelievers of old. All�h's Curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the truth!

5:64 The Jews say: "All�h's Hand is tied up (i.e. He does not give and spend of His Bounty)." Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for what they uttered. Nay, both His Hands are widely outstretched. He spends (of His Bounty) as He wills. Verily, the Revelation that has come to you from All�h increases in most of them their obstinate rebellion and disbelief. We have put enmity and hatred amongst them till the Day of Resurrection. Every time they kindled the fire of war, All�h extinguished it; and they (ever) strive to make mischief on earth. And All�h does not like the Mufsid�n (mischief�makers).

2:79. Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say, "This is from All�h," to purchase with it a little price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for that they earn thereby.

2:80. And they (Jews) say, "The Fire (i.e. Hell-fire on the Day of Resurrection) shall not touch us but for a few numbered days." Say (O Muhammad Peace be upon him to them): "Have you taken a covenant from All�h, so that All�h will not break His Covenant? Or is it that you say of All�h what you know not?"

2:111 �And they say, �None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian.� These are their own desires. Say (O Muhammad ), �Produce your proof if you are truthful.�

3:71. O people of the book (Jews and Christians): "Why do you mix truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know?"

3:72. And a party of the people of the Scripture say: "Believe in the morning in that which is revealed to the believers (Muslims), and reject it at the end of the day, so that they may turn back.

Maybe the one you talking about is different, Allahu Alam.

3:64. Say (O Muhammad): "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but All�h, and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides All�h. Then, if they turn away, say: "Bear witness that we are Muslims."

If you believe in the Quran, then this is my proof. If you don�t, then that�s your affair.

Edited by Truth_light24 - 10 April 2008 at 6:12am

And those who annoy believing men and women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a glaring sin. Quran33:59

believer

Guest Group

Joined: 08 January 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 1397

Posted: 10 April 2008 at 11:43am

Shasta'sAunt -asked " Where do you get your information about Muslims?"

What I am told on other forums, different articles, what "Muslims" have told me, etc. I do know that they are not arab speaking. They say that it is easier for them to follow the actions and words of Mohammad then the Quran.

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

believer

Guest Group

Joined: 08 January 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 1397

Posted: 10 April 2008 at 11:51am

Truth_light24 - Is this verse no longer true? Why?

005.069
YUSUFALI: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
PICKTHAL: Lo! those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Sabaeans, and Christians - Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.
SHAKIR: Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day and does good-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.

Edited by believer - 10 April 2008 at 11:53am

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Truth_light24 View Drop Down

Senior Member

Joined: 13 January 2008
Location: Philippines
Status: Offline
Points: 270

Posted: 10 April 2008 at 4:26pm

Believer, in the Quran there is no such thing as revision or edition just like what you have in your book. Quran never changes even a single word from the time it was revealed until now and we are not concealing some and adopting some just to meet our whims and desire. Quran is a Book almost all Muslims reads and even people like you ( you know one verse) and it was memorizes by millions for that matter and no one can say that there were even one ayah that was altered or deleted. You read the verse, from the top to down and know why it was revealed and will know the true message.

Those Jews and Christians that follow the real teachings of Moses and Jesus will know about the Prophethood of Muhammad and if they follow every Message of Allah reveled therein (Torah and Gospel), then surely they will accept Muhammad (pbuh) as the last prophet and will adhere to what was revealed (Quran) to him�.and to them (Jews and Christians) are the reward of eternal bliss:

2:62 Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in All�h and the Last Day (MUSLIMS refer to 3:64) and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

5:69. Surely, those who believe (in the Oneness of All�h, in His Messenger Muhammad and all that was revealed to him from All�h), those who are the Jews and the Sabians and the Christians, - whosoever believed in All�h and the Last Day, and worked righteousness, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.�

But majority of the People of the Book (now) altered almost all by deleting, editing, etc the original Torah and Gospel thus the true message have lost its meaning and replaced by other narrator in the present book thus Allah said they are doomed to hellfire forever.

5:65. And if only the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) had believed (in Muhammad) and warded off evil (sin, ascribing partners to All�h) and had become Al�Muttaq�n (the pious - see V.2:2) We would indeed have blotted out their sins and admitted them to Gardens of pleasure (in Paradise).

5:66. And if only they had acted according to the Taur�t (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel), and what has (now) been sent down to them from their Lord (the Qur'�n), they would surely have gotten provision from above them and from underneath their feet. There are from among them people who are on the right course (i.e. they act on the revelation and believe in Prophet Muhammad like 'Abdull�h bin Sal�m ), but many of them do evil deeds.

5:68. Say (O Muhammad) "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! You have nothing (as regards guidance) till you act according to the Taur�t (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel), and what has (now) been sent down to you from your Lord (the Qur'�n)." Verily, that which has been sent down to you (Muhammad) from your Lord increases in many of them their obstinate rebellion and disbelief. So be not sorrowful over the people who disbelieve. �

And those who annoy believing men and women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a glaring sin. Quran33:59

Hayfa

Senior Member
Senior Member

Female
Joined: 07 June 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2368

Posted: 10 April 2008 at 8:24pm

Yes but that does mean every Jewish person is a disbeliever...

You are quick to label groupd of people. Each person should be judged as an individual. As we should take each Muslim as an individual.

I guess I am missing the point of this obsession with labels.

Take each person you meet as an indiviual. Leaving the judging to Allah.. And pray that they become Muslims. But it is Allah's hands. Allah knows all..

Maybe we should fix the Ummah.. many ills there let me tell you..

When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi

imp87

Senior Member

Joined: 15 July 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 164

Posted: 10 April 2008 at 9:39pm

Salam

I was trying to stay out of this thread because of the labelling and how sensitive it is, but to be honest I have to agree with T_L on this one, she has presented relevant info and it clearly say who is Kafir and who is a Mushreek. Also the distinction between the Christians and Jews being referred to and the righteous ones mentioned in the Quran are made.

I think the real issue or concern some people have is about how to treat them and how we label them, or to which path the talk is leading to.

Having said that, personally I think we should try to restrain from calling people Kaffir and Mushreek, one because only Allah knows. And two these types of discussions or debates can put people off our beautiful religion, including Muslims and non Muslim because they get the wrong idea of what is trying to be implied.

My advice is we take extra care when talking about such serious matters as deciding who or calling someone a Kaffir or Mushreek.

Im out now peace.

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Truth_light24 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 13 January 2008 Location: Philippines Status: Offline Points: 270	Posted: 09 April 2008 at 3:45pm
	Christians and Jews of today are Mushrikeen, they are involved in polytheism and committing SHIRK while the people of the book and Sabians Allah mentioned (2:62) are those Christians and Jews that follow the religion and original teachings of Prophet Moses and Prophet Jesus, those people who follow the religion of Prophet Abraham. 3:64. Say (O Muhammad): "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but All�h, and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides All�h. Then, if they turn away, say: "Bear witness that we are Muslims." 3:67. Ibr�him (Abraham) was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was a true Muslim Hanifa (Isl�mic Monotheism - to worship none but All�h Alone) and he was not of Al-Mushrik�n (See V.2:105). 3:68. Verily, among mankind who have the best claim to Ibr�him (Abraham) are those who followed him, and this Prophet (Muhammad) and those who have believed (Muslims). And All�h is the Wal� (Protector and Helper) of the believers. 2:62 Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in All�h and the Last Day (MUSLIMS refer to 3:64) and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. 9:17 �It is not for the Mushrik�n (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of All�h), to maintain the Mosques of Allah (i.e. to pray and worship Allah therein, to look after their cleanliness and their building, etc.), while they witness against their ownselves of disbelief. The works of such are in vain and in Fire shall they abide.�
	And those who annoy believing men and women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a glaring sin. Quran33:59

Hayfa Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Female Joined: 07 June 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2368	Posted: 10 April 2008 at 5:54am
	Truth Light.. You need to show proof that Jewish people are polytheists. Have you been to temple lately or a Yeshiva?? I know quite a number of Jewish people and they pray to no other then God, have no statues etfc... Please explain what you mean... I would in fact ague that many Othodox Jewish people are quite aamzing at following all of the laws handed down to them. Their 612 laws plus all the other oral ones is quite incredible... Please show proof. I can see the argument to todays Christians (if they practice), but not of Jewish people. The vast majority of Jewish people only beleive in One God. A few people hug tres but cannot see what you are seeing. Thanks
	When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi

Truth_light24 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 13 January 2008 Location: Philippines Status: Offline Points: 270	Posted: 10 April 2008 at 6:05am
	This is my proof why I say Jews and Christians are Polytheists, from the Quran itself, the very word of Allah. 9:30. And the Jews say: 'Uzair (Ezra) is the son of All�h, and the Christians say: Messiah is the son of All�h. That is a saying from their mouths. They imitate the saying of the disbelievers of old. All�h's Curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the truth! 5:64 The Jews say: "All�h's Hand is tied up (i.e. He does not give and spend of His Bounty)." Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for what they uttered. Nay, both His Hands are widely outstretched. He spends (of His Bounty) as He wills. Verily, the Revelation that has come to you from All�h increases in most of them their obstinate rebellion and disbelief. We have put enmity and hatred amongst them till the Day of Resurrection. Every time they kindled the fire of war, All�h extinguished it; and they (ever) strive to make mischief on earth. And All�h does not like the Mufsid�n (mischief�makers). 2:79. Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say, "This is from All�h," to purchase with it a little price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for that they earn thereby. 2:80. And they (Jews) say, "The Fire (i.e. Hell-fire on the Day of Resurrection) shall not touch us but for a few numbered days." Say (O Muhammad Peace be upon him to them): "Have you taken a covenant from All�h, so that All�h will not break His Covenant? Or is it that you say of All�h what you know not?" 2:111 �And they say, �None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian.� These are their own desires. Say (O Muhammad ), �Produce your proof if you are truthful.� 3:71. O people of the book (Jews and Christians): "Why do you mix truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know?" 3:72. And a party of the people of the Scripture say: "Believe in the morning in that which is revealed to the believers (Muslims), and reject it at the end of the day, so that they may turn back. Maybe the one you talking about is different, Allahu Alam. 3:64. Say (O Muhammad): "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but All�h, and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides All�h. Then, if they turn away, say: "Bear witness that we are Muslims." If you believe in the Quran, then this is my proof. If you don�t, then that�s your affair. Edited by Truth_light24 - 10 April 2008 at 6:12am
	And those who annoy believing men and women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a glaring sin. Quran33:59

believer Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Guest Group Joined: 08 January 2008 Status: Offline Points: 1397	Posted: 10 April 2008 at 11:43am
	Shasta'sAunt -asked " Where do you get your information about Muslims?" What I am told on other forums, different articles, what "Muslims" have told me, etc. I do know that they are not arab speaking. They say that it is easier for them to follow the actions and words of Mohammad then the Quran.
	John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

believer Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Guest Group Joined: 08 January 2008 Status: Offline Points: 1397	Posted: 10 April 2008 at 11:51am
	Truth_light24 - Is this verse no longer true? Why? 005.069 YUSUFALI: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. PICKTHAL: Lo! those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Sabaeans, and Christians - Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. SHAKIR: Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day and does good-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve. Edited by believer - 10 April 2008 at 11:53am
	John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Truth_light24 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 13 January 2008 Location: Philippines Status: Offline Points: 270	Posted: 10 April 2008 at 4:26pm
	Believer, in the Quran there is no such thing as revision or edition just like what you have in your book. Quran never changes even a single word from the time it was revealed until now and we are not concealing some and adopting some just to meet our whims and desire. Quran is a Book almost all Muslims reads and even people like you ( you know one verse) and it was memorizes by millions for that matter and no one can say that there were even one ayah that was altered or deleted. You read the verse, from the top to down and know why it was revealed and will know the true message. Those Jews and Christians that follow the real teachings of Moses and Jesus will know about the Prophethood of Muhammad and if they follow every Message of Allah reveled therein (Torah and Gospel), then surely they will accept Muhammad (pbuh) as the last prophet and will adhere to what was revealed (Quran) to him�.and to them (Jews and Christians) are the reward of eternal bliss: 3:68. Verily, among mankind who have the best claim to Ibr�him (Abraham) are those who followed him, and this Prophet (Muhammad) and those who have believed (Muslims). And All�h is the Wal� (Protector and Helper) of the believers. 3:64. Say (O Muhammad): "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but All�h, and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides All�h. Then, if they turn away, say: "Bear witness that we are Muslims." 2:62 Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in All�h and the Last Day (MUSLIMS refer to 3:64) and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. 5:69. Surely, those who believe (in the Oneness of All�h, in His Messenger Muhammad and all that was revealed to him from All�h), those who are the Jews and the Sabians and the Christians, - whosoever believed in All�h and the Last Day, and worked righteousness, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.� But majority of the People of the Book (now) altered almost all by deleting, editing, etc the original Torah and Gospel thus the true message have lost its meaning and replaced by other narrator in the present book thus Allah said they are doomed to hellfire forever. 5:65. And if only the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) had believed (in Muhammad) and warded off evil (sin, ascribing partners to All�h) and had become Al�Muttaq�n (the pious - see V.2:2) We would indeed have blotted out their sins and admitted them to Gardens of pleasure (in Paradise). 5:66. And if only they had acted according to the Taur�t (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel), and what has (now) been sent down to them from their Lord (the Qur'�n), they would surely have gotten provision from above them and from underneath their feet. There are from among them people who are on the right course (i.e. they act on the revelation and believe in Prophet Muhammad like 'Abdull�h bin Sal�m ), but many of them do evil deeds. 5:68. Say (O Muhammad) "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! You have nothing (as regards guidance) till you act according to the Taur�t (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel), and what has (now) been sent down to you from your Lord (the Qur'�n)." Verily, that which has been sent down to you (Muhammad) from your Lord increases in many of them their obstinate rebellion and disbelief. So be not sorrowful over the people who disbelieve. �
	And those who annoy believing men and women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a glaring sin. Quran33:59

Hayfa Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Female Joined: 07 June 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2368	Posted: 10 April 2008 at 8:24pm
	Yes but that does mean every Jewish person is a disbeliever... You are quick to label groupd of people. Each person should be judged as an individual. As we should take each Muslim as an individual. I guess I am missing the point of this obsession with labels. Take each person you meet as an indiviual. Leaving the judging to Allah.. And pray that they become Muslims. But it is Allah's hands. Allah knows all.. Maybe we should fix the Ummah.. many ills there let me tell you..
	When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi

imp87 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 15 July 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 164	Posted: 10 April 2008 at 9:39pm
	Salam I was trying to stay out of this thread because of the labelling and how sensitive it is, but to be honest I have to agree with T_L on this one, she has presented relevant info and it clearly say who is Kafir and who is a Mushreek. Also the distinction between the Christians and Jews being referred to and the righteous ones mentioned in the Quran are made. I think the real issue or concern some people have is about how to treat them and how we label them, or to which path the talk is leading to. Having said that, personally I think we should try to restrain from calling people Kaffir and Mushreek, one because only Allah knows. And two these types of discussions or debates can put people off our beautiful religion, including Muslims and non Muslim because they get the wrong idea of what is trying to be implied. My advice is we take extra care when talking about such serious matters as deciding who or calling someone a Kaffir or Mushreek. Im out now peace.