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honeto View Drop Down
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Points: 2487 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote honeto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2008 at 6:24pm
Delta,
you are making fun of yourself. You claim to be one of those who claim to follow "Prince of Peace" and spread love on this earth,  really?
you don't seem to practice what you believe:
 
First this is no place for those who hate any one's faith or belief.
If you hate what some of us believe.  I would suggest you stay away  from those hate websites, the hate is eating you up according to your own belief.
This is a place to learn and promote knowledge and understanding and love with some rules.
There is no compulsion on your part or on ours, each and everyone of us is free to believe whatever he/she choose.
 
Let me ask you this what is your understanding of these verses from your Holy Bible, these words are sacred to you as you believe they are from God. Now can you tell me what you read, and what you interpret and what you practice from these, as you claim to be a Roman Catholic??
Here are the quotes from Exodus Chapter 20
4 'You shall not make yourself a carved image or any likeness of anything in heaven above or on earth beneath or in the waters under the earth.

5 'You shall not bow down to them or serve them. For I, Yahweh your God, am a jealous God and I punish a parent's fault in the children, the grandchildren, and the great-grandchildren among those who hate me;

Peace,

Hasan


Edited by honeto - 09 May 2008 at 6:25pm
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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BMZ View Drop Down
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Points: 1852 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BMZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2008 at 7:52pm
Originally posted by Delta Delta wrote:

Originally posted by BMZ BMZ wrote:

 
 Delta,
 
Before I comment further, I would like to know if you ARE really a Christian?
 
Yes or No?


Roman Catholic

Originally posted by BMZ BMZ wrote:


Could you quote some Medinah verses which you want to discuss? Do that in small bites, please.


Sura 9:5

 
Thank you. Shasta'sAunt, Honeto and myahya have already provided you with the answers.
 
Any Scripture must be read in sections or chapters as each section conveys a complete message. You will see that in all scriptures.
 
In order to understand, you must first read Surah 8 and then continue reading into Surah 9. Once you have read both of them together, only then you will realise why those Muslims, of that time or particular period, were asked to fight back their oppressors.
 
By simply pointing out just 9:5 as a verse on it's own and showing it as a Commandment to Muslims to fight all others in the world, is being plain dishonest. LOL
 
If 9:5 were an order to kill, all the Europeans, who came and later colonised Muslim lands by deceit, would have been killed the day they stepped in. LOL
 
Hope you will seriously read Surah 8 & 9 together and you will require no further explanation.
 
Cheers
BMZ
 
 
 
 


Edited by BMZ - 09 May 2008 at 7:56pm
Shasta's Aunt: "Well, there's the difference you see. The Bible was written by man about God, The Quran was revealed to man by God."
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Points: 1852 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BMZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2008 at 8:09pm
Originally posted by Delta Delta wrote:

Originally posted by myahya myahya wrote:



On the other hand, even if there are different interpretations then you can not conclude that the Quran is changed.



verbatim is verbatim, absolute is absolute,

complete, perfect; pure; unlimited; definite, positive; not relative

this is what islam claims about the Qu'ran

I didn't conclude the Qu'ran is changed, but rather it is being changed all the way by each people interpretation

Reading a passage of the Quran in context does not mean just reading it with the preceding and following verses.

You have to also know the sha�ne nozool, i.e. the historic context, why and in what occasion Muhammad said a certain verse. That is why you have tafseer.

Tafseer is the interpretation of the Quran. Tafseer means interpreting, clarifying, expounding. It is derived from fasara, which means "to explain, to open or to unveil"

Many books of tafseer have been written.

Does this mean that you can't interpret the absolute word of God, the Verbatim Word of God ?

Logically, being absolute word of God, there is no other way of  interpretation other than that of Bin Laden


 
One can easily understand Qur'aan's message without going into Tafseers, Ahaadith and Shane-Nuzool, etc.
 
The Arabs in the time of the Prophet just heard the Message and understood it without the help of Tafseers, Ahaadith and any Shane-Nuzool.
 
You hate Islam and I hate Bin Laden. His is a political battle which has nothing to do with Islam. In terms of comparison, I would compare him with Martin Luther, whose teachings led to the creation of the monster Hitler.
 
The Crusaders slaughtered the Jews in the name of their Lord and justified killing of the Jews as having 'holy mercy' upon them by packing them off to heaven. LOL Bush is another holy freak. Let us leave politics out here.
 
BMZ
Shasta's Aunt: "Well, there's the difference you see. The Bible was written by man about God, The Quran was revealed to man by God."
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believer View Drop Down
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Points: 1397 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote believer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2008 at 5:47am

One problem though is that Islam is political- as it's aim is to control all aspects of a person's life. 

Alot of history has passed since the crusades.  Thankfully we have matured.

009.004
YUSUFALI: (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.
PICKTHAL: Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him).
SHAKIR: Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).

009.005
YUSUFALI: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

009.006
YUSUFALI: If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.
PICKTHAL: And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not.
SHAKIR: And if one of the idolaters seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then make him attain his place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know.

I understand these verses as:  The pagans who convert to Islam,  have a treaty with Muslims,repent or ask for your protection will not be slain.  Only those that resist will be killed.  Is that correct?
 
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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Originally posted by believer believer wrote:

One problem though is that Islam is political- as it's aim is to control all aspects of a person's life. 

Alot of history has passed since the crusades.  Thankfully we have matured.

009.004
YUSUFALI: (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.
PICKTHAL: Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him).
SHAKIR: Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).

009.005
YUSUFALI: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

009.006
YUSUFALI: If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.
PICKTHAL: And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not.
SHAKIR: And if one of the idolaters seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then make him attain his place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know.

I understand these verses as:  The pagans who convert to Islam,  have a treaty with Muslims,repent or ask for your protection will not be slain.  Only those that resist will be killed.  Is that correct?
 

All Praises are for Allah (S).
 
Peace My friend!
 
Well you understand it wrong!
 

009.004
YUSUFALI: (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.
PICKTHAL: Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him).
SHAKIR: Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).

 

Not who convert to Islam! Verse 6 conforms that:

 

009.006
YUSUFALI: If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.

PICKTHAL: And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not.

SHAKIR: And if one of the idolaters seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then make him attain his place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know.

tnc
LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!
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myahya View Drop Down
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Delta, the right interpretations are in fact invariant beside Allah swt. Let me more clarify what I was going to say: Quran has both literal as well as underlying meanings. However, one can understand many verses straight forward by their own wisdom and intelligence directly. If you have read Quran, you may have encountered the verses about having Ehsan with regards to parents, doing Infagh to poor people and many others. All of them are easily understandable.

Do not blindly attack to Tafseer. In Quran Allah swt commands us to do Ta�aghol and Tadabbor in the words of Him. Islam was the first and last religion which emphasized and encouraged people to do research and use their wisdom and brain to find out things. That is why the most important miracle of Islam is a book. We have the task to do Tadabbor in Quran. For doing so, our first reference and origin would be the prophet, the teacher of the book. Sha�ene nozool is also needed as historical evidence for more clarifying.

Delta: �Logically, being absolute word of God, there is no other way of interpretation other than that of Bin Laden�

I am sorry; I do not see any logic in this sentence. Allah swt has given wisdom to you and intelligence to distinguish between right and wrong.  You can not stand in front of Hagh on the last day to say that �I used to hate Islam because of Ladan�s (or other�s) interpretations of Quran�. Obviously there is no logical ground for this claim of yours. You can do Tadabbor and use your wisdom to find the truth and right. The enemies of Islam do intentionally generate many wrong interpretations and/or misuse other interpretations to misguide people and make them hate Islam. It is not surprising. Why are you a victim of such an evil plan?



Edited by myahya - 12 May 2008 at 4:34am
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honeto View Drop Down
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Points: 2487 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote honeto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2008 at 9:14am
Delta,
I did not hear your response to my last post, are you there?
Hasan
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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Originally posted by myahya myahya wrote:

Delta, the right interpretations are in fact invariant beside Allah swt. Let me more clarify what I was going to say: Quran has both literal as well as underlying meanings. However, one can understand many verses straight forward by their own wisdom and intelligence directly. If you have read Quran, you may have encountered the verses about having Ehsan with regards to parents, doing Infagh to poor people and many others. All of them are easily understandable.

Do not blindly attack to Tafseer. In Quran Allah swt commands us to do Ta�aghol and Tadabbor in the words of Him. Islam was the first and last religion which emphasized and encouraged people to do research and use their wisdom and brain to find out things. That is why the most important miracle of Islam is a book. We have the task to do Tadabbor in Quran. For doing so, our first reference and origin would be the prophet, the teacher of the book. Sha�ene nozool is also needed as historical evidence for more clarifying.

 
Salaam!
 
The reason why Christians are not getting the right understanding is because they read only the Quran and leave out the explanation of the Prophet (S) (Sunnah).
 
This is what Allah (S) said:
 

4:113 But for the Grace of Allah to thee and his Mercy, a party of them would certainly have plotted to lead thee astray. But (in fact) they will only Lead their own souls astray, and to thee they can do no harm in the least. For Allah hath sent down to thee the "Book and wisdom" and taught thee what thou Knewest not (before): And great is the Grace of Allah unto thee.

You see that! Allah (S) has sent down �two things� the "book and wisdom" and He taught Muhammad (S) what he didn�t Knew before.

 

Coommenting on this verse Imaam ash-Shaafi'ee's said: "Allah has mentioned that 'the book' (Al-Kitaab) which is the Quran and he mentioned 'The wisdom' (al- Hikmah) and I have learnt from the people of knowledgr that  'al- hikmah' is the Sunnah of Allah's Messenger (S).........."
 
Now, Allah said in Quran 16:64 And we have revealed the Book (al-kitaab) unto thee only that thou mayst "explain" unto them that wherein they differ, and (as) a guidance and a mercy for a people who believe.

So the explanation of the Quran is the Sunnah!
 
tnc
 
 
 
 
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