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Chrysalis 
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Joined: 25 November 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2033 |
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 Posted: 16 June 2008 at 6:03am |
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Well, since I was naming the career-areas of women in Pakistan, I can assuredly say that women can also be found in the Police-Force.
 And to all those who think women should not be part of the police-force, because it compromises thier 'feminineness' etc, then are you going to suggest we have male-police manhandling our female protestors and criminals? There are full-body searches required, handcuffing etc etc, I would not like to give the male-police a chance to 'grope' those females. Female Police are a necessaity especially in a muslim society where u dont want males manhandling women in public. With all due respect sister, there are points I disagree with and believe hold more of a traditional, cultural significance compared to an islamic one.
Sister, Islam places the brunt of the responsibility on the husband. That does not mean however, that if the wife is working the 'divine order' is disrupt! And there is nothing wrong with that! Those are personal, cultural opinions. . . not islamic ones. For instance: Hazrat Khadija, Prophet Muhammad's wife . . . was a businesswoman. And she willingly spent her money for Islam. The initial emancipation of slaves during Islam's advent were mainly due to Hazrat Khadija and AbuBakr's financial genorisity. Infact, it can be said that Hazrat Khadija was the breadwinner since being Hazrat Muhammad's employer, she earned more than him. Even after marriage, her income was more than the Prophet's. And alhamduliah they led a prosperous, long and happy married life, without the least bit of 'sensitivity' on Prophet Muhammad's part !
Does that mean that the reason a husband/father deserves respect is because he is the breadwinner? Does that mean, that when a man is unable to earn/work or is jobless that he no longer deserves the love/respect of the wife n kids? No! (Having said that, it does not excuse the lazy-lug husbands. . . )
And I think that the decision to survive on a low-income cannot be generalized, and it soley upto the couple. What if, in a case the husband is not capable of earning much, and as a result cannot provide certain provisions to his family? Its not fair to expect his kids and family to go without things simply bcz he cannot bear to see his wife earn more!!! (only if the wife wants to) we cannot ask ppl to survive on limited means, and wait for a Divine miracle to happen, when the answer is as simple as the wife working! If both are happy with the wife not working, Alhamdulilah. But if the wife wishes too. . . nothing wrong. You say that '..Allah opens ways of provisions'.. , who are we to say what the provisions are! Maybe Allah has made the wife a means and provision! Just like He made Khadijah a means of provision for the poor muslims of the time!
Edited by Chrysalis - 16 June 2008 at 6:19am |
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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Chrysalis
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Joined: 25 November 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2033 |
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Posted: 16 June 2008 at 6:15am |
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Exactly! Abuayisha has a very valid point.
We need women to work, simply so they are able to serve women. Not only as teachers, doctors etc. Also as businesswoman. . . because I can expect a woman to know MORE about the needs of women and develop products for the female market compared to a man. Also as researchers, so they can better research of female-specific things/issues.
Also in the government, so they can help improve family-laws. . . Hazrat Umar often would consult females, on issues they were better aware of. One of the well-known instances is when he consulted his daughter, so he could make an appropriate law to have soldiers return home to thier wives after certain periods of time.
We need female ulema. They can better understand feminine issues and pass more female-friendly fatawa.
Female shop assistants, tailors,
I would also prefer to have a female personal trainer in the Gym.
Edited by Chrysalis - 16 June 2008 at 6:20am |
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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Chrysalis
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Joined: 25 November 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2033 |
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Posted: 16 June 2008 at 7:05am |
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As far as I know, the only point according to you a woman can 'disobey' her husband is when he asks her to disobey Allah. I dont think any muslim husband asks his wife to do shirk or expressivley disobey Allah. Hence, apart from that, is she ALWAYS to obey him? What about when his orders infringe her rights?
For example, some men order thier wives to serve thier moms-in-law and service thier families. (like cooking for the entire in-law house, despite the presence of capable ppl who can cook on thier own, ) now this is not an express order that asks her to disobey allah, does that mean she is bound to fulfull his every whim? In this case, replace the word 'wife' with 'slave'. For only is a slave supposed to follow the masters every whim. A wife is different, she has the option of saying no.
I dont think we need anymore pointers how women could be good muslim wives. This issue has been driven into the ground. . .
A husband is a grown man , an adult. His needs do not come before a child's. (Stop crying honey, I know ur hungry, but daddy needs to be given dinner first)
 And rather than drilling into the wife's mind, that ur husband's needs come before yours is wrong: She needs to adderess BOTH thier needs, depending on whose need has priority. It cannot be a standard rule i.e husband is first. Sometimes, the husband's need has to be adderessed first. . but sometimes, the woman's own needs may be more important. For example, if the woman is hungry, and her husband wants something. In this case, the wife's need come first.
Some women are not the 'perfect housewive' and dislike household chores, does that mean they are not feminine? Household chores are not 'feminine'. And are not only the woman's responsibility. The husband should help around the house, and that will not make him less of a man.
Prophet Muhammad would mend his own clothes, sew his own button, he would ALSO perform other chores around the house to help his wive's . . . there is mention that he would often sweep the house, and milk the goats (which was a feminine chore of the time). And if anyone was a 'Man' . . .it was Prophet Muhammad.
Hazrat Zainab would tan leather at her house and sell it, simply so she could spend the money in charity. . . because she wanted to perform charity off her own income.
Once, Hazrat Aisha was cross and she broke a bowl due to her hieghtened emotion. The Prophet simply smiled, picked up the pieces with his blessed hands and asked someone to go get another.
If Allah had meant this as a "Divine Order", he would not have given women thinking, analaysing skills or the skills to earn. He obviousley gave such skills to His female creations so they may be able to survive and not overtly-depend on the male for survival.
If the husband is not ok with her wife's excellance, thats his problem. . . and an issue that has a psychological/emotional basis. That is what needs to be adderessed, not banning the woman from working.
Again, it is an insult to men to suggest that all men are insecure about thier wives' capabilities. And besides, there is nothing to be insecure about! Allah made both man & woman a compliment for the other. If the wive excels in one field, perhaps the man excel's in another. Just bcz a woman has some capabilities does not mean she is she-man, she still needs her husband, for emotional support or sometimes to unscrew the pickle-jar or kill the rat
 There are so many things husbands-wives need each other for. I know a couple, where the husband is a pathetic driver, and is always getting into accidents, so he prefers that his wife drive , and she does so happily -but in all other aspects they are a typical man-wife couple. . ! I know another lady who is seemingly very tough and confident, and is the boss of her house, but whenever she sees a spider, or a rat, or a lizard, she screams the house down, and her husband has to be the knight-in-shining-armor who had to rescue the maiden-in-distress! A happy marriage is not about standard-stereotypes. . .its about mutual support and what works best for them.
Having said that, I hope I have not offended you. . . nothing personel, if you hold those views and they work for you Alhamdulilah !
 I simply wished to make it clear to those interested, that those views were not necessarily based on Islam. Edited by Chrysalis - 16 June 2008 at 7:18am |
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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Shasta'sAunt
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Female Joined: 29 March 2008 Status: Offline Points: 1930 |
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Posted: 16 June 2008 at 10:22am |
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Assalamu Alaikum:
Well, I am amazed that in essence there are still women who think they must dumb themselves down to men to keep harmony. Islam supposedly did away with this type of thinking 1400 years ago...
Not only was Hazrat Khadija the main breadwinner and a very intelligent business woman who could read and write, I suppose she had to hide these skills, Hazrat Aisha actually lead an army into war. She was also responsible for memorising 75% or more of the Hadith and often settled disputes regarding fiqh between the men.
The Quran states:
O mankind! Reverence your Guardian-Lord, Who created you from a single person (nafsin- waahidah), created, of like nature, his mate, and from them two scattered (like seeds) countless men and women--reverence Allah through Whom you demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (that bore you): for Allah ever watches over you.... (Qur'an 4:1)
"Never will I suffer to be lost the work of any of you, be he/she male or female: you are members one of another..." If any do deeds of righteousness, be they male or female, and have faith, they will enter paradise and not the least injustice will be done to them. (Qur'an 4:124)
For Muslim men and women, for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patent and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise-- for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward. (Qur'an 33:35) O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know each other. Verily the most honored of you in the sight of Allah is (one who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things). (Qur'an 49:13) The believers, men and women, are protectors, one of another: they enjoin what is just and forbid what is evil: they observe regular prayers, practice regular charity, and obey Allah and His apostle. On them will Allah pour His mercy: for Allah is Exalted in power, Wise. (Qur'an 9:7) And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. (2:228)
The degree is qiwamah, the maintenance of the family.
No where in the Quran does it state that women are less than men, subservient to men, that we are to treat men as closer to God, that we should show less intelligence than men, or that we are not equal in the eyes of Allah. In fact, the Quran makes it very clear that we are protectors of one another and equal in every way except the qiwam.
Sister Nausheen, I am usually in agreement with your posts but this time I am surprised. For someone who is obviously so intelligent I find it hard to believe that you feel a woman's intelligence or superiority over her husband in the workplace should be hidden. Didn't Allah give us our intelligence and command all Muslims, men and women, to seek knowledge, to learn.
Why would Allah(SWT) give any woman an excellent mind and great intelligence just to have her suppress it to please a man? If we were meant to be less intelligent than men, Allah would have created us that way and we probably never would have known the difference. To give us the intelligence, make it clear in His Word that we have been blessed with intelligence and are in fact to seek knowledge, and then to expect us to act st**id makes no sense and I see no proof that this is what Allah expects from women. I rather think it's an insult to that which Allah has created. Why wouldn't you want to use what Allah has given you to do something great and wonderful?
If men feel threatened by the intelligence that Allah gave women, or their equality, that is the man's problem.
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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt |
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Hayfa
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Female Joined: 07 June 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2368 |
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Posted: 16 June 2008 at 1:42pm |
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And really it comes to how people raise their sons and daughters. If they rasie them both to be respectful to all, strong in faith, capable and to be kind then we have less of a problem. If they see the wife and husband respect and listen to each other, supprt each other, in essence be positive role models, they do will hold those same values.
If men feel threatened by the intelligence that Allah gave women, or their equality, that is the man's problem.
I agree. Allah endowed me with a wonderful brain. For me to pretend not to have it.. what kind of life is that... having to live my life falsely cause someone else has an issue with it.
Of course women should be taken care especially in child-bearing andearly child-rearing. That is the hardest job to do.. be at home with young children...
And what are womanly chores by the way? I have yet to figure it out.. and if I don't like cleaning a bathroom that makes me less "feminine?"
And we are each other's helpmate.. not a servant. And its about letting someone be able to make a final decision. But a good man is not afraid to consult his wife. And its not about NOT being obedient. Its about being treated with respect and dignity. There is a difference to being able to follow a good leader and another to be another person's doormat.
I am glad that there are plenty of men out there who appreciates not only the beauty of a woman but also a good conversation over the dinner table. |
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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Israfil
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Posted: 16 June 2008 at 6:04pm |
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I am not debating that a woman is going to lose ALL her feminity if she goes out to earn a living - but it affects her, when she is away from home for same number of hours as her husband, and is facing similar challenges of the world as himself she is not the same woman as one who spends her time in more feminine chores.
How are chores feminine? How can you genderize household work? Of course it exist but for the sake of argument and being a devil's advocate I'd like you to explain this point if you can.
Israfil, when I said marriages are deteriorating, what I meant was look at the future of most marriages in our times as compared to old.
The difference between now and then is because in the past, American society was a lot conservative than it is now. Women were constrained more in the household with less opportunities than now. When women tried to work, they were discouraged and when they were working they were discriminated against and placed in jobs that were "feminine" making less-than equal pay to that of men doing the same job.
In US 50% of first marriage ends in divorce, the rate being higher for second and even higher for third marriages.
True. But what are the contributing variables to why this exist in the United States? Simply stating that its because of financial reasons is not enough.
Being financially independent somehow conveys the meaning that man and woman in a marriage are not one unit, they are seperate individuals. This is how people think today, and this is how they behave, treat each other.
This is an opinion which I respect but its not universally factual. I have friends who work independently and still maintain the mindset of a unity. Just because both the man and women work indepenedently does not mean they are in marriage seperate from each other. Some have the collective mindset of wanting to provide for the family. Perhaps your experiences are different than mine-obviously.
Theoritically being financially independent sounds great, but practically the great thing is when the husband provides and the family honors him for doing so -
I disagree and I do so on thr grounds of my cultural biases. I was raised with the philosophy that a man should help provide for the family. Key word HELP. A woman should value a man for who he is anyway not by the fact that he is able to provide for the family. Any man who is economically sufficient within himself can provide for a family but does he have the characteristics of being a good human being? I don't like the idea of man being the sole breadwinner because for some men, this is leverage to use against unsuspecting women. Some men like to throw in "I took care of you" bit...
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seekshidayath
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Posted: 16 June 2008 at 7:38pm |
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A very good discussion going in here
But i view similar to sister Nausheen. We do not read any stance wherein Khadeejah RA, moved out for bussiness. Unless and untill its a must to leave out for jobs, they can go for it. Else, home is her best place.
And regarding Ayesha RA, shasta's aunt, that was complete different situation. And we get to read there that she was in veil seated over a palanquin { i did not get an exact word for it} on a camel.
This thought of "Mine" and "Me" gets them {husband and wife} divided. Naturally, it does rise within them that its my money. Conditions are still worse when a woman earns more than her husband.
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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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Nausheen
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Posted: 17 June 2008 at 1:55am |
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A discussion in which I seem to gain one vote against so many ... well folks, my apologies if I take ages to respond, since my time here is too limited. Not trying to cop out, just the honest truth. I did not expect these many overwhelming responses, so please bear with me ... meanwhile feel free to add your disagreements (or agreements) if any |
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<font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR] |
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Nausheen wrote: