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Did he betray me? |
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Nausheen 
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Female Joined: 10 January 2001 Status: Offline Points: 4251 |
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 Posted: 19 June 2008 at 11:46pm |
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Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir Rajeem,
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim,
Crysalis, All through your arguments the bottom line is "since it is a woman's prerorogative to work, why should she not use it!" An argument which generates a counter-argument telling you that sugar is halal, but if you have diabetes running in your family, it is advisable to take it in small quantities. A woman can work does not mean she should work under all circumstances ... You called my statements generalizing, when I listed the categories of women population who may work without any if or but ... My posts are directed to women who are young, married, and have small children (and I should also add - living a life without doemstic help). Even in this category I would say if they are forced by necessity, they may work because it is afzal to eat what ones hands earn rather than begging. If the category of women to whom my responses are directed comprise a major chunk of any country's population I did not design this scenario ... and you cannot call me generalizing due to the presence of this scenario. If most women of a population are young, who do not have any domestic help or any extended family support, working outside the home can prove a nightmare at times. Just because she is intelligent, talented, educated and its her prerorogative to work does not make it the most wise decision for her. [and if the situations are favorable, ie she is able to find domestic help, plus her working hours are not odd she is living in bliss, no really!!] Please do not presume things for my personal circumstances or upbringing, simply because you don't know me or my background. I am not offended rather found your statements chuckling. You said: Sister, no subtle messages here. Islam is very clear, that the mother is the best care-giver /care-taker of the child. How does that help the argument against working mothers? Are working mothers deficit of maternal qualities? This is your assumption, not mine. You also said: Infact, if it was ever an ideal age for mom's to work, it is today. Because companies actually allow omen to bring thier babies to work, and have very flexible timings. And don't say that it is not the same thing, it is the mother's choice. Infact the facilities are greater than available at home, they have feeding rooms, a nurse to help with medical issues/help new moms, etc etc. We have maternal leaves, not only in the west, in islamic countries. Malaysia gives new moms a PAID maternal leave for 2yrs. And the employer is bound by law to give the mom her job back after she returns. Maternal leaves allow women to stay at home and be with the child. After that, the child already starts school in most countries, and by working during the child's school hours, she is not at all missing out on her child. This I have issues with. I don't know of any part time jobs or contract jobs that allow a paid maternity leave. May be my knowledge of the world is too little. Last time we were in Canada, I was on a full time contract job and I was told I cannot get paid maternity leave. Which meant I had to go on leave without pay, and return to work for at least 6 months to receive the payment for my days of maternity. To best of my knowledge if a woman is enjoying paid maternity leave etc she is working a 9-5 job, which is also permanant - how many jobs fall in this criterion? I am tempted to say you are generalizing things to support your views. Now, back to your previous comment - where from will she find time to spend with her babies in a 9-5 job? A 9-5 job at an average means one needs to leave the home at around 7 or 7:30, to deposit the baby/kid in the day care, before proceeding for work. Then in the evening after collecting them return home at about the same time. If there is no domestic help, she will have to cook, clean, feed the family, and prepare the children for bed - pray and take rest herself because she needs to rejuvinate her body for another day which will be as hectic as this one. - where is the time for teaching the tender hearts and impressing their sponge like minds with her values? where is the time for husband, or even for that matter for herself. In a country where daycare is cheap, extended families live nearby, domestic help is invariably available, women actually enjoy working. They are not stressed. Further the cultural set up is such that every stress can be buffered by the society. Marital problems are few caused by work stress. A stark contrast of this is life in the west. In USA and Canada, child care for an infant is $1000 per month. I dont know in UK. An average salary is between $20oo and $2500. Additionaly domestic help also costs a huge sum - though i have not heard of the exact costs. If you did not know this, please stop here to think for a while. Because leaving the kid in day care for a 9-5 job means she is first spending almost half to one third of her income on day care fascilities - she is also leaving her children in the care of people who have values very different from those of muslims (when this is the best time to impress on them her own values). She is spending so much of time on her job, losing so much of children's growing up, being stressed a work and at home, all for just a little extra money and her so called prerorogative to work ... Just an extra note here, my son gets sick in daycare whenever there is a virus or infectious bacteria in the air - then the whole family takes turn to get sick because he brings the infection home, and our homes are too small in Japan - all day cares in japan have this problem - all mothers complain about this. They just cannot keep children from catching infection from eachother. once when he was 1 yr old I had to stay with him a whole week in hospital - with a continuous IV on his foot, because he got sick from the day care ... perks of being a working mother! Another scenario ... muslim men from developing countries go to USA and hunt for spouses with green card. Sometimes these ladies are christians and on others new muslims. These men dont want to work because life is tough - work is also tough. They love to be lazy around their US national wives - slaving them to work. - again this is not a generalizing statement - not all are like this, but many many women are trapped in this circus because they dont know an option other than their so called prerorogative to work. Working can be wonderful as long as you enjoy all the freedom, with little neglected responsibilities back at home, and get huge pocket money. But in reality the working package is not all that of a fairy tale. Young couples should organize their money and building of their family in a manner which does not throw women in this stressful life style. Because stress on a woman means not only deteriration of her physical health, but also her mental health - this affect they way she deals with people who are in close contact with her. There can be ways of working about this problem - the first step to this will however be realization of a problem, otherwise they will continue to live in this working package which can never be a fairy tale.
Edited by Nausheen - 19 June 2008 at 11:53pm |
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<font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR] |
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Hayfa
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Female Joined: 07 June 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2368 |
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Posted: 20 June 2008 at 1:24am |
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I think it is fair to say that many people fall apart and are not fulfilling their religious duties. This could be on diferent levels for men and women.
Sadness its the reality.. society really has gone a bit mad.
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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Chrysalis
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Joined: 25 November 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2033 |
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Posted: 20 June 2008 at 8:31am |
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Sorry for the double posts. Had to edit this one. . .cz dont have the option of 'delete'. . . . Edited by Chrysalis - 22 June 2008 at 12:07pm |
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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Chrysalis
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Joined: 25 November 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2033 |
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Posted: 20 June 2008 at 8:33am |
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Sorry for the double posts. Had to edit this one. . .cz dont have the option of 'delete'. . . . Edited by Chrysalis - 22 June 2008 at 12:06pm |
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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Chrysalis
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Joined: 25 November 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2033 |
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Posted: 20 June 2008 at 8:35am |
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I have heard this before as well . . .however I find that hard to believe since it seems to go against the Qur'anic verses which talk about both Men and Women being responsible for thier own actions. I believe a Qur'anic verse also says something like , Noone shall bear the burden of another. So, I would appreciate Brother if you could provide me a source for the above sayings. . .however my natural inclination would be to tilt towards the Qur'anic ayat, since I have come across many that talk of how muslims are each responsible for thier own actions.
I do believe that if any muslim remains silent in the face of another muslim who is doing wrong, than he shares a little responsibilty as well, since it is his/her duty to do 'amar bil marouf, anhil nahi munkar' . . . but I believe it goes for BOTH men & women. Hence if a wife sees her husband going against Islamic injunctions, ithere is an equal parts duty on her to inform her husband of the islamic injunctions. This is solely not the man's responsibility.
I believe Sister Nausheen's references regarding the issue of Mahrams have clarfied the issue to quite an extent. Jazakallah to her.
And thankyou for posting the ahadith Brother. Let me stress that I do not dislike the concept of a mahram accompanying a woman , niether do I think this infringes a woman's rights. It makes me love Islam all the more because Allah puts extra burdens/responsibilities on the man, just for the sake of the woman's protection, rights, care etc. Alhamdulilah.
 Infact, if anyone is losing out in this situation, it is the man, because he is the one with the burden here, not the woman. For me, the ideal and preferred situation would be that the Mahram accompany the woman. . .HOWEVER when Mahrams are not available, or refuse to perform thier duty, My opinion is that the muslim woman should not have to suffer, just because she doesnt have a mahram, or her mahram refuses to accompany her. She should go about her business, when there is a lack of a marham. And all I am saying is that we are noone to tell that woman that she should not go out, if she doesnt have a mahram. since all individuals have different circumstances.Besides Brother, one doesnt even have to worry about the Mahram issue. Believe me Brother, women have this natural instinct of having a support-group. Did you ever notice that women wont even go to the toilet alone, and always drag a sister along?
 On a serious note. You will notice this, even amongts non-muslim women, who dont have the concept of a mahram. Whenever they venture into an unsafe environment, or an environment that they are not comfortable with, they TOO will drag a male escort along. Same is with muslim women. They will only venture out alone, if they are confident of the security issue. And if they are going to a market-place known for its hooligans, she will always go with a bro, husb or father. . .
So my point is: An outsider, especially a male, need not tell muslim women that they are not to venture outside without a Mahram, because MOST Muslim Women have the common sense to know when they need one. When circumstances demand it, Muslim Women will naturally opt for a Mahram . . .in the majority of cases, especially if they are aware of Islam. However when the circumstances are devoid of the need of a mahram . . . She may venture out without one as well. And the reason I feel there is a need to make this distinction is so that ppl know it is not 'Haraam', and make sweeping statements and ban thier women frm going out. Or take that as a ruling to make generalized laws such as the one in Saudia Arabia today, which makes it illegal for a woman to leave the house without a mahram. . . because we know that although the Prophet reccommended Mahrams, he did not forbid women from going out as well.
There are numerous incidents in ahadith that mention women outside the house without a mahram, and yet the Prophet never reprimanded them. And the reason he didnt do that was so in the future, Muslims wouldnt use that instance to make Taliban-like rules that forbade women from going out.
Like I said before, on the Islamic preference scale (Halal, Mustahab, Makrouh, Haraam) One may put without-a-mahram on a 'less-desirable' scale, but definatley not on the 'forbidden' one. Hence, this does not give anyone the right to pass judgements on women who venture out without Mahrams since we are in no position to know thier circumstances, hence not comment on it.
This Hadith is more for the men, since it is telling them that when thier wives wish to go somewhere, they should accompany her. . . and not refuse. Subhanallah, the Prophet did not say, Go on a war and tell your wife that since you are busy, she should delay her plans and go later. He put the woman's need equal to the man's!!! Even though BOTH the man and wife had an equally important need! And Even though Hajj can be performed any year, yet Jihad is a now-or-never opportunity! Thus, this is a message to all Brothers. If your wife needs to go somewhere, and asks you to come, Don't refuse because ur napping or watching TV. . .GO WITH HER. Because the Prophet equates the wife's needs to the man's. As long as they are of the same level (like Jihad/Hajj is a similar need, Mall/TV is a similar need.) Obviousley a man doesnt have to delay obligatory actions such as prayers etc for an unimportant request.
So if the Travel distance is less than two days, the woman can travel without a mahram?
I agree wholeheartedly with the Ahadith you quoted, and am aware of them. However, my application of the Ahadith differs from yours Brother. I believe that in order to apply Islamic Principles in our lives, in the face of changing times and circumstances, we have to look behind the wisdom of injunctions as well. And apply it accordingly. Thus, I will not say that Ahadith get aborgated na'aazubillah, but thier application changes, according to circumstances. For example, we all know that after 3 divorces, Allah still gives a chance for ex-spouses to remarry after they've been married once, right? But during Umar R.A khilafat, circumstances changed, and ppl started misusing the ruling and divorces-remarriage became rampant. So for a certain time-period Umar R.A made it illegal to remarry the same spouse after 3 divorces. . . He did not say the Hadith were not applicable anymore, he had to temporarily change the application of the ruling, for the greater good - due to circumstances. Islam also does not set a limit to the Mahr a woman may demand, but due to the circumstances of the time, and marriage-expenses sky-rocketing for the man, due to a high-mahr trend in arabia, Umar R.A put a maximum limit to the Mahr women may demand. Thus, the ruling was there, yet the application changed for the time bieng according to circumstances.
Thus, though I will not say that this Hadith is nauzubillah no longer valid. I believe that due to circumstances, the application may change. Which is why scholars today looked at the wisdom behind the Ahadith and made furthur explanations, clarifications for Mahrams, and concluded that in certain circumstances, a Mahram is not necessary e.gs of Hajj, Airplanes, Cars and other things that Sis Nausheen quoted.
Edited by Chrysalis - 20 June 2008 at 8:39am |
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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Hayfa
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Female Joined: 07 June 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2368 |
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Posted: 20 June 2008 at 9:02am |
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It is interesting when I was in Pakistan i stayed in Karachi for a few weeks with friends. And often did not get ot go anywhere alone. Which on one hand is nice (no one wants to loose a guest in a city of 15 million). One the other hand, I felt like a tremedous burden. I would love to have gone and walked around and seen things, but I knew folks were not interested. So.. I went slowly mad.. drinking tea and well.. drinking tea.
For a few days later I went to Lahore on my own..playing tourist. Got my owm rickshaw driver and did the sights. Later I went to the bazaar to do some shopping. And it was a release not to feel like I was dragging someone around. I've been dragged around shoppping (I am not a shopper type) and let me tell you..I could take my time and not fel like I was imposing on someone.
When I was a teenager my class trip went to disneyworld. And we had to stay in groups. Two of the young girls I was with wanted to "shop" I almost went insane looking at mickey mouse dolls.. I mean, how many does one need to see?? I was all ready for the rides.. ended up looking at stuffed creatures.. uggh
I learned to bring something to read with me everywhere I went in Pakistan. The group stuff wears me out!
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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Chrysalis
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Joined: 25 November 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2033 |
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Posted: 20 June 2008 at 9:52am |
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So one can say, that unless a person has Diabetes, he/she may eat as much sugar as he/she wills. . . since this is his/her God-given right. And another person does not have the right to comment on the amount of sugar consumed by another. Even though I really dont think this analogy translates to working women, I gave it a try.
I never insisted that women should work under all circumstances. I believe that the decision is solely upto the woman alone, and we are no one to say when she should work, when she should not, how long, under what circumstances etc etc. It is the sole decision of the woman in question.
Prerogative: 'The exclusive right and power to command, decide, rule, or judge'
Sister, I believe the muslim lady in question, is better able to decide whether or not it is a wise decision. And other ppl can simply put forward thier opinions when asked. . . but cannot conclude on other's behalf, what is a wise decision, and what is not.
I dont believe I ever presumed anything about your circumstances or upbringing! I simply stated that your views probably represent your own upbringing/circumstances. . . I believe that is hardly any presumption, bcz but natural, everyone's views are often a product of variables such as upbringing.
However, If in anyway you felt I was being presumptious about you, let me say that was not my intention. And I apologize.
Sister, I never said that all jobs offer such services, I was saying that due to an increase in the facilities, flexibilities for women at work. . . if it has ever been ideal for women to work, it has been today (or in the future) Infact, I'm sure you are correct when you say there are no such leaves/incentives for moms working part-time. Because, obviousley a part-time employee doesnt have the same responsibilities, thus incentives as a full-time one.
Then again, part-time jobs arent even a problem, since they hav flexi times. Moms working 9-5 jobs can make use of the maternity incentives.
Like I said before, lets leave that decision to the working mom. Unless a working-mom sees a benefit/need/neccessaty in working - she will not work. Every one has different capabilities, abilities (to multi-task), some brains need more intellectual stimulation, others are better off taking things slow . . . hence it all boils down to the individual decision.
I was merely giving examples of the opportunities today's women have. I am also aware that women with lower educational qualifications will also not get these jobs, thus be excluded. This was an example of flexibility women have, not a generalization.
I can also quote examples of flexibilities that women are given in non-mutlinational companies. I am sure there are other examples of other countries as well, bcz if Pakistan gives these benefits to women (and its not known for its women rights) then I am sure other countries have far better policies (such as Malaysia, UAE). For example, married female teachers are often exempted from late duties in schools. Or exempted from accompanying students on extra-curricular trips that lie outside of normal teaching hours. They are also more leniently treated when it comes to medical-leaves, coming late. Many are also provided exclusive door-to-door transport facilities. Universities often run subsidized pick-n-drop services solely for female students. . . just so they have one-less reason to miss out on education.
Again sister, I am not insisting that all new-moms go out and work. I believe that if they want to, have good arrangements for the baby, and can deal with the pressure, then there is no harm. Often a times, women can rely on close relatives such as Aunts, Grandmothers to take care of the babies. Even if that means a 9-5 job (Again Sis, Im not suggesting all hav that option, ) .
If a sister is facing all the above stated problems, I think her natural inclination would be to quit her job. And she will. I know a sister who has worked 20+ yrs, and she recently quit, due to health issues, and bcz her kids are now grown and can take care of financial needs. She is married, and worked willingly, not because they were starving. . . but bcz her husband couldnt earn enough to send the kids to a good school. She wanted her kids to have certain things in life. And though she may not have always been at home to bake lasagnes . . . she was always there. And I hav seen her 3 sons respect her all the more because of her extra contribution. More than I see other kids respecting thier stay-at-home moms, cz they take them for granted. (I am not using this example to say that all women should start working tomorrow!) I'm saying, what works for certain ppl, doesnt work for others.
Which is why I have mentioned time and again on this forum, as well as to other sisters, that working is not an obligation on them . . .rather a personal willing option.
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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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abuayisha
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Muslim Joined: 05 October 1999 Location: Los Angeles Status: Offline Points: 5105 |
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Posted: 20 June 2008 at 10:33pm |
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