Love and Religion conflicts=help!

as the young man in question, I suppose it is time for me to weigh in on this discussion of an issue the two of us have been wrestling with. before getting into a spiritual + theological discussion though, I'd like to address a couple of the points people have already made. also please note that I will use the names God and Allah interchangeably, but when I use them I am referring to the one God who created the heavens and the earth, who created us, and who loves us deeply.

layalee wrote: In all honesty what you are engaging in may just stay online and you probably never will meet the young man. ... Now just consider some other factors. Even though alot of these 'relationships' never make it off line and the chances of either of you guys 'waiting' for one another is a slim chance.

I'm in the process of picking my travel dates and finding a place to live within jogging/biking distance and a temporary job. For those of you concerned with the safety of the issue, I would like to point out that its currently technically infeasible to simulate interactively in real-time both photorealistic video and human speech, especially on the occasions when multiple people (family members/friends) are also in on the discussion. At this point I feel it's probably safe to assume both of us are who we claim to be. On the subject of our ability to wait, we are now approaching the one year marker, plus 6 months of friendship prior to that. Again, I feel its fairly safe to say that our patience extends well beyond that of your typical teenagers. On some level though, I wish that this discussion had taken place 12 months ago, for that would have made things much simpler emotionally.

Obviously, you sharing with other muslims what you are going through is a sign that you are battling in your heart and mind what is the choice to make. You have one part of you telling you what is the 'right' Islamic choice to make. But on the other side, you have these 'feelings' in your heart, that makes you feel you�are in love.

If what we were experiencing was romantic love on a purely emotional level, it would fade over time. This is a fact of human physiology. But any love worth holding on to, any love that is going to last is more than just emotion. It is living day to day in a way that places the needs of the one you love before your own. Any of you who aren't familiar with the roots of the Anglicized (English) idea of love (as a single word), should at the very least read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_words_for_love, and I would recommend reading C.S. Lewis's The Four Loves. I believe that the persistence of our love for each other, despite the lack of any physical contact, love that is based on a shared joy in God's creation and the touching of two minds, speaks to this being something deeper than just eros or teenage hormones.

most importantly to Allah(swt) to consider a relationship with the young man.

God is love, without love you are nothing. It seems to me that it would be disrespectful....even foolish, to think that somehow Allah disapproves of real love between anyone, but especially between two people who love him, simply because they acknowledge the legitimacy of 2 different sets of prophets. If He is love, than showing love to another human being is the single thing we can do that is most pleasing to Him, regardless of if that love is demonstrated through care of our planet, care for each other, striving for social justice, working to establish peace, or constant service to each other of a husband and wife.

Lets not even look at the fact that really no mosque will allow you to marry, that obviously you will be without your wali when you make this marriage decision, or that his parents and church will probably not accept� the marriage...

I can not speak to what will happen if want to get married in a mosque, though what I read here does not give me much hope, yet I do know beyond a shadow of a doubt that my current pastor will be willing to marry us should I ask him to do so, and that my parents will be thrilled to have a daughter in law who loves God as much as she does (once of course we've had the discussion with them to show that her understanding of Allah is very much the same as our understanding of God).

Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.

I am under the understanding that Muslims accept Jesus, at least as a prophet. why then do I see this continual disregard for the teaching inherent in his life? his closest friends and those to whom he showed the greatest mercy were not the religious of the day, but rather the tax collectors, the gentiles, prostitutes and even the Romans who were oppressing his own people. The entire law is summed up in one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself" Who are neighbors? Every human being in this universe was created by God, in his own image (not physically of course), and thus every human being in this universe is your neighbor

How would you raise� your children if Daddy rejects Islam but Mommy is a Muslimah. How would you explain that you pray five times a day,� but daddy doesn't. Daddy doesn't go to a Masjid� but mommy does. Daddy can eat during Ramadan but�you and the children�can't.� As a mom you want the best for your children, and who else should lead the family but a Muslim brother

We would be truly irresponsible to have children until we have decided how they are to be raised, yet what kind of husband and father would I be if I didn't pray when they prayed, and ate when they ate.

Edited by thomasd - 13 July 2008 at 11:46pm

Chrysalis wrote: I'm not even going to try to approach the issue from a theological point of view. Why? Because I know that you both are perfectly aware of what your respective religions' say. I also know that should have been enough to dissuade a person . . . and I know that the Lady/Girl in question will still go through with her choice of what she believes, and so using religion as a dissuading tool is useless and irrelevant now. ... Having said that, putting the theological issue aside, I still wouldnt be able to tell someone to go ahead with a union of this nature. Why? Well, the entire online-love thing. And I am referring to both of you. How much do you really know about each other? Meeting online is but the tip of the ice-berg. You dont even know each other's personality, character etc. Your perceptions of each other are built solely on what you both have told each other (i.e. what you both subconciousley want each other to believe). You havent even seen each other interact with other people, the way you talk etc etc. How do you know if the other has a personality flaw, a temper or anyother traitl. Thus even after knowing each other for a year, I still think you know nothing. You dont have mutual friends, family members you could ask about the prospective spouse. Apart from the fact that you both 'love' each other. I know this is not anything physical/sexual etc. But I do not accept the fact that this is 'love'. Perhaps an infatuation to attain some long-desired object of affection . . . or perhaps because you both have the same interests such as God etc. To 'love' is to have affection towards another despite knowing all the faults. You both know all that you want to . . .But do you both know all that you need to know? (about each other) . Its not as rosy as it seems. The mere fact that you both call this year long correspondency 'love', does not sit well with me. Having said that, I have an inclination as to what both of your decision will be. But I hope whatever it is, it will give you both happiness/blessings in this world, as well as the hereafter.

thank you, that was one of most well reasoned posts so far in this discussion. The points you make here are absolutely valid, and we would be foolish to disregard them. Getting married at this stage in our lives, and in our relationship would be beyond foolishness. Yet neither of us believe there is any point to relationship that does not include the possibility of marriage, which is why we are trying to address these religious issues before we go any further. To say that religion is ineffective as a dissuading tool also does disservice to both her and I, these last couple weeks have been some of the most difficult and gut wrenching times of both our lives as we have been wrestling with these issues a new. We also seem to be the exception to the rule of internet relationships as far as having mutual friends go. I'd say there's a shared group of about 10 friends--from both sides of the country, as well as fairly frequent contact with her family. I also plan on having her flown out here over her Christmas vacation to meet my family and church--after a 3 month test run of me living on her side of the country, giving us a chance to ground our relationship firmly in the real world. This has been our plan for nearly 3 months, and only in the last couple weeks has there been any doubt.

[edit]
I just saw this in one of your posts above

PS: What will your Kids be believing in? Christianity, Islam or some universal hippy-version of God is Love, and Love conquers all?

My desire is for my children to be trained in critical thinking, as I have been, and raised to believe in a loving God, and taught to follow the moral and ethical teachings of both Jesus and Muhammad. I want them to be encouraged to explore the evidence for both religions and be able to make a decision for themselves, for I have faith that God will reveal himself to those who seek him. That being said, it would be foolishness for us to even consider having children until we've had a lot more time to think and come to consensus on how our children should be raised.



I am very much interested in the theological aspects of this discussion or I would not be here, however as a critical thinker who strives to follow and understand God as best I can, I have very little taste for the blind legalism that permeates so much of mainstream religion. Instead of citing me a single verse from the Quran (sorry, I don't remember the correct place for the apostrophe...), please weigh your post against the whole of Abrahamic religion and your own personal relationship with God and the way His character has been revealed to you through that relationship.

[edit2]

grrr, I'm not used to forums where I have to wait for my post to actually show up. I suppose it can be useful to help prevent discussions from getting too heated.


Edited by thomasd - 14 July 2008 at 8:01am

An other reminder for Peacelovedarfur :

Few other posts of the last  page implie that you are still in the process of decision.

A Muslim is the one who submits himselves to Allah. He submits his likes , dislikes according to the commands of Allah swt. He does n't , partly follow and partly leave any of His commands. Any of his acts or intentions will be for Allah swt.

He does n't hesitate, to follow any of the commands of Allah swt.  You must be knowing that Jews. Christians and even the Mushirks of Makkah, also believed in One God - Allah swt. Yet they were called as "disbelievers" in Islam. Though they  believed in Allah swt, yet disbelieved the command of Allah swt to believe in the Prophet He had chosen. SO they were called as disbelivers in the Qur'an. When it is plain and simple that marriage with a DISBELIEVER, is  n't permitted, then why are you going for it ?

As the Prophet said in an authentic Hadith,

Whoever commits an action that does not conform to our matter (religion) then it is rejected Naturally, your nikah {marriage} is not going to be according to Islam, you may be going by christianity and leave up with a wrong relation { acc to Islam}.

Do you think the one who does n't follow the command Allah swt , will spread peace, when he himselves is n't practicing it. Islam is  the complete and the only solution of peace. Khayr, i feel you shud give him sometime to study Islam. especially of Prophet Muhammad {Peace be upon him}. Let him discuss any points he does n't agree with, { as you said he disbelives Prophet}.

Also remind him that  Islam is the religion of all of the Prophets from the first to the last. Their laws and their rules may be of different types but  the religion is the same. The laws differed in Abraham AS's time, Musa AS's time and Isa AS too.

The shariah {laws} was completed  over its LAST Prophet , Muhammad {Pbuh}. Take the case of Ibrahim AS, - he believed in One God, and he submitted according the will of Allah swt. He was asked to sacrifice his only son then, and he obeyed Allah swt. He was asked to leave his wife and son, at a place where there were no signs of life. He obeyed Allah swt. Likewise , he submitted to Allah swt in every way . Here, why is it so tough for you to submit to Allah swt. Just claiming that i believe in Allah swt is n;t enough. Your belief  shud be expressed in actions.

Answer to these situations

After getting married to him, will he allow you to wear Hijab ?
To be in hijab is compulsory  for a muslimah. Will you then say again, i believe in Allah swt, but still love my husband, so i shall forsake my hijab --- ?

He may want you to accompany you to some party and at the other side you may have to miss Zuhr, Asr and Maghrib salah. What will you do ? Remember, even if you offer all the 24 hours and the remaining days of your life any ibadah, you cannot  fulfill the loss you made up by missing one salah.

If  you wish to offer hajj, can  you ? or will you forsake this wish which every muslim heart yearns to fulfill it ?

Like wise there are many aspects wherein, many contradictions may arise.

Companions of Prophet {peace be upon him}, and there lives are to good examples for us. Right now, i would like to discuss of a sahabiya - { i don't remember her name exactly, but i guess its, Umm Salem RA}.  She denied a proposal of a sahaba { i guess it was Talha  RA}, who then did not embrace Islam, She said, how can i marry a mushrik when he disbelieves Allah swt?" Talha RA, wished to get married to her. He studied Islam and then embraced it. Remember, he did not embrace Islam for the sake of  Umm Salem RA, but for the sake of Allah swt. Prophet saws, would have then allowed there marriage as mushriks did believe in Allah, apart from idol worships --. Anyways, if agrees to study Islan again, let him start up looking into Qur'an. Present  him a Qur'an with its commentary.  Give some time to him. Keep praying ,  that Allah swt bestows hidayah to him. You know very well, that Islam is the only true religion acceptable before Allah swt. If he really believes in Allah then am sure he shall also believe in the word of Allah swt..Also be mindful that speaking to non-mahrams is a sin in Islam. Go for group discussions and speak to the point to him. If he is intrested in studying Islam, we the members of IslamiCity shall be happy to help him. Am sure, you must be very regular to your salah, so keep praying Allah swt for it . Don't be under misconception that you are believing in Allah swt, whereas you are disobeying His commands. Let your faith get practiced. Am sure if even he believes and obeys the command of Allah swt, he shall know the real meaning of peace, as he experiences it too.Then can you both work for the spread of peace - i.e Islam. There is no single command in Islam, which is against peace. Anyways, hope you ponder over it. May Allah swt bestow you with a strong faith and save all of us from such tests. Ameen

 As a muslim we are to remind each other of the truth as said in the Quran, "watawassaw bil haqqi" - This is to perform acts of obedience and avoid the forbidden things. This was my duty as a muslim towards you. Now, its upon you to follow it or whatsoever.

Edited by icforumadmin - 15 July 2008 at 12:18pm

"Few other posts of the last  page implie that you are still in the process of decision.

He does n't hesitate, to follow any of the commands of Allah swt.  You must be knowing that Jews. Christians and even the Mushirks of Makkah, also believed in One God - Allah swt. Yet they were called as "disbelievers" in Islam. Though they  believed in Allah swt, yet disbelieved the command of Allah swt to believe in the Prophet He had chosen. SO they were called as disbelivers in the Qur'an. When it is plain and simple that marriage with a DISBELIEVER, is  n't permitted, then why are you going for it ?"

I know what I want to choose but I am still in doubt for I also know what the Islamic doctrine is and being concious of its entire dissagreement it leaves me no peace. But I am not Muslim because I believe Islam is the only way, yes, it is the straighest of paths but Allah(swt) would not be All-Merciful and All-Loving if he ruled the People of the Book out, who are not Unbelievers and fervently worship the one and only Lord of the Universe while taking example from one of the most treasured phrophets of humanity. Their path is a path to Allah(swt) too, it has only when left and forgotten by the majority or blocked by thorns of distortion- they themselves, those who really do follow Isa(pbuh) can be of the best believers. And no, Phrophet Muhammed(pbuh) from the beginning of our faith had recognized them as followers of Allah's messengers whose divine messages are explicitly recognized by Islam, the unbelievers where the idol worshipers and now the atheists.  As for submitting to Allah(swt) inshallah I have been and as for this jihad I am trying, but I having the hardest time believing he would disapprove something so pure and good as love especially knowing that both our hearts are turned towards him.

Your Questions:

-For the hijab, that is my own decision and I have only just recently started wearing last month but I dont know whether I shall wear it permanantly or not-but again that is my decision. 

-Allah gave us a time frame to pray so we may complete it within that time, I could go seperate room or even pray before I go(arent Arabs at least 2 hours late anyways, what will 5 minutes do?). And why would I miss a Salat ever? It marks all life with its sacred rhytm, and, from dawn to night, brings me before God and prevents me from being submerged in material and worldly concerns.

-Thomas has even expressed want to go with me to Hajj and I would never miss that for anything. Hajj being our journey back to the centre, the ocus of Islamic Unity to walk amoung and with my ummah.Inshallah, that will be my parents graduation present for me :).

 

admin: the font was too small, has been rezized

Edited by icforumadmin - 15 July 2008 at 12:17pm