IslamiCity.org Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Religion - Islam > Islam for non-Muslims
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - The Great Jihad ?  What is Islam What is Islam  Donate Donate
  FAQ FAQ  Quran Search Quran Search  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

The Great Jihad ?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 11>
Author
Message
Gulliver View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member


Joined: 12 September 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 621
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gulliver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Great Jihad ?
    Posted: 18 September 2008 at 11:08am

I was looking for something online today and came across this 'sermon' which is good I thought. Considering it's Ramadan, and it's a perspective from the Christian tradition,  I thought it interesting, and it does apply to each and every one of us.

I am living through this as we speak, for about the trillionth time. As I bet most of you are :-) Yeah, it's painful.
 
"I am the Lord your God, you shall have no other 'gods' before Me".
 
I am reminded of a poem - "The Hound of Heaven".
 
All which I took from thee I did but take,
  Not for thy harms,
But just that thou might�st seek it in My arms.
  All which thy child�s mistake
Fancies as lost, I have stored for thee at home:
 
 
 
The Blessedness of Posessing Nothing
      Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Matt. 5:3
Before the Lord God made man upon the earth He first prepared for him by creating a world of useful and pleasant things for his sustenance and delight. In the Genesis account of the creation these are called simply `things.' They were made for man's uses, but they were meant always to be external to the man and subservient to him. In the deep heart of the man was a shrine where none but God was worthy to come. Within him was God; without, a thousand gifts which God had showered upon him.

But sin has introduced complications and has made those very gifts of God a potential source of ruin to the soul.

Our woes began when God was forced out of His central shrine and `things' were allowed to enter. Within the human heart `things' have taken over. Men have now by nature no peace within their hearts, for God is crowned there no longer, but there in the moral dusk stubborn and aggressive usurpers fight among themselves for first place on the throne.

This is not a mere metaphor, but an accurate analysis of our real spiritual trouble. There is within the human heart a tough fibrous root of fallen life whose nature is to possess, always to possess. It covets `things' with a deep and fierce passion. The pronouns `my' and `mine' look innocent enough in print, but their constant and universal use is significant. They express the real nature of the old Adamic man better than a thousand volumes of theology could do. They are verbal symptoms of our deep disease. The roots of our hearts have grown down into things, and we dare not pull up one rootlet lest we die. Things have become necessary to us, a development never originally intended. God's gifts now take the place of God, and the whole course of nature is upset by the monstrous substitution.

Our Lord referred to this tyranny of things when He said to His disciples, `If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever shall lose his life for my sake shall find it.' (Matt. 16:24-25).

Breaking this truth into fragments for our better understanding, it would seem that there is within each of us an enemy which we tolerate at our peril. Jesus called it `life' and `self,' or as we would say, the self-life. Its chief characteristic is its possessiveness: the words `gain' and `profit' suggest this. To allow this enemy to live is in the end to lose everything. To repudiate it and give up all for Christ's sake is to lose nothing at last, but to preserve everything unto life eternal. And possibly also a hint is given here as to the only effective way to destroy this foe: it is by the Cross: `Let him take up his cross and follow me.'

The way to deeper knowledge of God is through the lonely valleys of soul poverty and abnegation of all things. The blessed ones who possess the Kingdom are they who have repudiated every external thing and have rooted from their hearts all sense of possessing. They are `poor in spirit.' They have reached an inward state paralleling the outward circumstances of the common beggar in the streets of Jerusalem; that is what the word `poor' as Christ used it actually means. These blessed poor are no longer slaves to the tyranny of things. They have broken the yoke of the oppressor; and this they have done not by fighting but by surrendering. Though free from all sense of possessing, they yet possess all things. `Theirs is the kingdom of heaven.'

Let me exhort you to take this seriously. It is not to be understood as mere Bible teaching to be stored away in the mind along with an inert mass of other doctrines. It is a marker on the road to greener pastures, a path chiseled against the steep sides of the mount of God. We dare not try to by-pass it if we would follow on in this holy pursuit. We must ascend a step at a time. If we refuse one step we bring our progress to an end.

As is frequently true, this New Testament principle of spiritual life finds its best illustration in the Old Testament. In the story of Abraham and Isaac we have a dramatic picture of the surrendered life as well as an excellent commentary on the first Beatitude.

Abraham was old when Isaac was born, old enough indeed to have been his grandfather, and the child became at once the delight and idol of his heart. From that moment when he first stooped to take the tiny form awkwardly in his arms he was an eager love slave of his son. God went out of His way to comment on the strength of this affection. And it is not hard to understand. The baby represented everything sacred to his father's heart: the promises of God, the covenants, the hopes of the years and the long messianic dream. As he watched him grow from babyhood to young manhood the heart of the old man was knit closer and closer with the life of his son, till at last the relationship bordered upon the perilous. It was then that God stepped in to save both father and son from the consequences of an uncleansed love.

`Take now thy son,' said God to Abraham, `thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt-offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.' (Gen 22:2) The sacred writer spares us a close-up of the agony that night on the slopes near Beersheba when the aged man had it out with his God, but respectful imagination may view in awe the bent form and convulsive wrestling alone under the stars. Possibly not again until a Greater than Abraham wrestled in the Garden of Gethsemane did such mortal pain visit a human soul. If only the man himself might have been allowed to die. That would have been easier a thousand times, for he was old now, and to die would have been no great ordeal for one who had walked so long with God. Besides, it would have been a last sweet pleasure to let his dimming vision rest upon the figure of his stalwart son who would live to carry on the Abrahamic line and fulfill in himself the promises of God made long before in Ur of the Chaldees.

How should he slay the lad! Even if he could get the consent of his wounded and protesting heart, how could he reconcile the act with the promise, `In Isaac shall thy seed be called'? This was Abraham's trial by fire, and he did not fail in the crucible. While the stars still shone like sharp white points above the tent where the sleeping Isaac lay, and long before the gray dawn had begun to lighten the east, the old saint had made up his mind. He would offer his son as God had directed him to do, and then trust God to raise him from the dead. This, says the writer to the Hebrews, was the solution his aching heart found sometime in the dark night, and he rose `early in the morning' to carry out the plan. It is beautiful to see that, while he erred as to God's method, he had correctly sensed the secret of His great heart. And the solution accords well with the New Testament Scripture, `Whosoever will lose... for my sake shall find...'

God let the suffering old man go through with it up to the point where He knew there would be no retreat, and then forbade him to lay a hand upon the boy. To the wondering patriarch He now says in effect, `It's all right, Abraham. I never intended that you should actually slay the lad. I only wanted to remove him from the temple of your heart that I might reign unchallenged there. I wanted to correct the perversion that existed in your love. Now you may have the boy, sound and well. Take him and go back to your tent. Now I know that thou fearest God, seeing that thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son, from me.'

Then heaven opened and a voice was heard saying to him, `By myself I have sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: that in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.'

The old man of God lifted his head to respond to the Voice, and stood there on the mount strong and pure and grand, a man marked out by the Lord for special treatment, a friend and favorite of the Most High. Now he was a man wholly surrendered, a man utterly obedient, a man who possessed nothing. He had concentrated his all in the person of his dear son, and God had taken it from him. God could have begun out on the margin of Abraham's life and worked inward to the center; He chose rather to cut quickly to the heart and have it over in one sharp act of separation. In dealing thus He practiced an economy of means and time. It hurt cruelly, but it was effective.

I have said that Abraham possessed nothing. Yet was not this poor man rich? Everything he had owned before was still his to enjoy: sheep, camels, herds, and goods of every sort. He had also his wife and his friends, and best of all he had his son Isaac safe by his side. He had everything, but he possessed nothing. There is the spiritual secret. There is the sweet theology of the heart which can be learned only in the school of renunciation. The books on systematic theology overlook this, but the wise will understand.

After that bitter and blessed experience I think the words `my' and `mine' never had again the same meaning for Abraham. The sense of possession which they connote was gone from his heart. things had been cast out forever.They had now become external to the man. His inner heart was free from them. The world said, `Abraham is rich,' but the aged patriarch only smiled. He could not explain it to them, but he knew that he owned nothing, that his real treasures were inward and eternal.

There can be no doubt that this possessive clinging to things is one of the most harmful habits in the life. Because it is so natural it is rarely recognized for the evil that it is; but its outworkings are tragic. We are often hindered from giving up our treasures to the Lord out of fear for their safety; this is especially true when those treasures are loved relatives and friends. But we need have no such fears. Our Lord came not to destroy but to save. Everything is safe which we commit to Him, and nothing is really safe which is not so committed.

Our gifts and talents should also be turned over to Him. They should be recognized for what they are, God's loan to us, and should never be considered in any sense our own. We have no more right to claim credit for special abilities than for blue eyes or strong muscles. `For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive?'

The Christian who is alive enough to know himself even slightly will recognize the symptoms of this possession malady, and will grieve to find them in his own heart. If the longing after God is strong enough within him he will want to do something about the matter. Now, what should he do?

First of all he should put away all defense and make no attempt to excuse himself either in his own eyes or before the Lord. Whoever defends himself will have himself for his defense, and he will have no other; but let him come defenseless before the Lord and he will have for his defender no less than God Himself. Let the inquiring Christian trample under foot every slippery trick of his deceitful heart and insist upon frank and open relations with the Lord.

Then he should remember that this is holy business. No careless or casual dealings will suffice. Let him come to God in full determination to be heard. Let him insist that God accept his all, that He take things out of his heart and Himself reign there in power. It may be he will need to become specific, to name things and people by their names one by one. If he will become drastic enough he can shorten the time of his travail from years to minutes and enter the good land long before his slower brethren who coddle their feelings and insist upon caution in their dealings with God.

Let us never forget that such a truth as this cannot be learned by rote as one would learn the facts of physical science. They must be experienced before we can really know them. We must in our hearts live through Abraham's harsh and bitter experiences if we would know the blessedness which follows them. The ancient curse will not go out painlessly; the tough old miser within us will not lie down and die obedient to our command. He must be torn out of our heart like a plant from the soil; he must be extracted in agony and blood like a tooth from the jaw. He must be expelled from our soul by violence as Christ expelled the money changers from the temple. And we shall need to steel ourselves against his piteous begging, and to recognize it as springing out of self-pity, one of the most reprehensible sins of the human heart.

If we would indeed know God in growing intimacy we must go this way of renunciation. And if we are set upon the pursuit of God He will sooner or later bring us to this test. Abraham's testing was, at the time, not known to him as such, yet if he had taken some course other than the one he did, the whole history of the Old Testament would have been different. God would have found His man, no doubt, but the loss to Abraham would have been tragic beyond the telling. So we will be brought one by one to the testing place, and we may never know when we are there. At that testing place there will be no dozen possible choices for us; just one and an alternative, but our whole future will be conditioned by the choice we make.

Back to Top
minuteman View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member

Joined: 25 March 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 1642
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote minuteman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 September 2008 at 7:30am
 
 From Gulliver:
 
  I was looking for something online today and came across this 'sermon' which is good I thought. Considering it's Ramadan, and it's a perspective from the Christian tradition,  I thought it interesting, and it does apply to each and every one of us.
I am living through this as we speak, for about the trillionth time. As I bet most of you are :-) Yeah, it's painful.
 
"I am the Lord your God, you shall have no other 'gods' before Me".
 
I am reminded of a poem - "The Hound of Heaven".
 
All which I took from thee I did but take,
  Not for thy harms,
But just that thou might�st seek it in My arms.
  All which thy child�s mistake
Fancies as lost, I have stored for thee at home:
 
 
 
The Blessedness of Posessing Nothing
      Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Matt. 5:3
Before the Lord God made man upon the earth He first prepared for him by creating a world of useful and pleasant things for his sustenance and delight. In the Genesis account of the creation these are called simply `things.' They were made for man's uses, but they were meant always to be external to the man and subservient to him. In the deep heart of the man was a shrine where none but God was worthy to come. Within him was God; without, a thousand gifts which God had showered upon him.

But sin has introduced complications and has made those very gifts of God a potential source of ruin to the soul.

Our woes began when God was forced out of His central shrine and `things' were allowed to enter. Within the human heart `things' have taken over. Men have now by nature no peace within their hearts, for God is crowned there no longer, but there in the moral dusk stubborn and aggressive usurpers fight among themselves for first place on the throne.

This is not a mere metaphor, but an accurate analysis of our real spiritual trouble. There is within the human heart a tough fibrous root of fallen life whose nature is to possess, always to possess. It covets `things' with a deep and fierce passion. The pronouns `my' and `mine' look innocent enough in print, but their constant and universal use is significant. They express the real nature of the old Adamic man better than a thousand volumes of theology could do. They are verbal symptoms of our deep disease. The roots of our hearts have grown down into things, and we dare not pull up one rootlet lest we die. Things have become necessary to us, a development never originally intended. God's gifts now take the place of God, and the whole course of nature is upset by the monstrous substitution.

Our Lord referred to this tyranny of things when He said to His disciples, `If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever shall lose his life for my sake shall find it.' (Matt. 16:24-25).

Breaking this truth into fragments for our better understanding, it would seem that there is within each of us an enemy which we tolerate at our peril. Jesus called it `life' and `self,' or as we would say, the self-life. Its chief characteristic is its possessiveness: the words `gain' and `profit' suggest this. To allow this enemy to live is in the end to lose everything. To repudiate it and give up all for Christ's sake is to lose nothing at last, but to preserve everything unto life eternal. And possibly also a hint is given here as to the only effective way to destroy this foe: it is by the Cross: `Let him take up his cross and follow me.'

The way to deeper knowledge of God is through the lonely valleys of soul poverty and abnegation of all things. The blessed ones who possess the Kingdom are they who have repudiated every external thing and have rooted from their hearts all sense of possessing. They are `poor in spirit.' They have reached an inward state paralleling the outward circumstances of the common beggar in the streets of Jerusalem; that is what the word `poor' as Christ used it actually means. These blessed poor are no longer slaves to the tyranny of things. They have broken the yoke of the oppressor; and this they have done not by fighting but by surrendering. Though free from all sense of possessing, they yet possess all things. `Theirs is the kingdom of heaven.'

Let me exhort you to take this seriously. It is not to be understood as mere Bible teaching to be stored away in the mind along with an inert mass of other doctrines. It is a marker on the road to greener pastures, a path chiseled against the steep sides of the mount of God. We dare not try to by-pass it if we would follow on in this holy pursuit. We must ascend a step at a time. If we refuse one step we bring our progress to an end.

As is frequently true, this New Testament principle of spiritual life finds its best illustration in the Old Testament. In the story of Abraham and Isaac we have a dramatic picture of the surrendered life as well as an excellent commentary on the first Beatitude.

 Abraham was old when Isaac was born, old enough indeed to have been his grandfather, and the child became at once the delight and idol of his heart. From that moment when he first stooped to take the tiny form awkwardly in his arms he was an eager love slave of his son. God went out of His way to comment on the strength of this affection. And it is not hard to understand. The baby represented everything sacred to his father's heart: the promises of God, the covenants, the hopes of the years and the long messianic dream. As he watched him grow from babyhood to young manhood the heart of the old man was knit closer and closer with the life of his son, till at last the relationship bordered upon the perilous. It was then that God stepped in to save both father and son from the consequences of an uncleansed love.

`Take now thy son,' said God to Abraham, `thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt-offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.' (Gen 22:2) The sacred writer spares us a close-up of the agony that night on the slopes near Beersheba when the aged man had it out with his God, but respectful imagination may view in awe the bent form and convulsive wrestling alone under the stars. Possibly not again until a Greater than Abraham wrestled in the Garden of Gethsemane did such mortal pain visit a human soul. If only the man himself might have been allowed to die. That would have been easier a thousand times, for he was old now, and to die would have been no great ordeal for one who had walked so long with God. Besides, it would have been a last sweet pleasure to let his dimming vision rest upon the figure of his stalwart son who would live to carry on the Abrahamic line and fulfill in himself the promises of God made long before in Ur of the Chaldees.

  It is a long post, I carefully followed it upto some paras. It is wonderful. I do not know how it will end. But the initial part, in black, seems quite good. Permit me to praise that. Thanks. until I read all of it.
 
Back to Top
Gulliver View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member


Joined: 12 September 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 621
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gulliver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 September 2008 at 12:59pm
 
Let me know minuteman :-)
 
I don't know what the Islamic understanding of the story of Abraham and Isaac is. I must have a look.  Am I wrong in thinking this is akin to the 'great jihad' - where we seek to give God back his 'throne' in the heart ? Might use different language perhaps - but a similar concept.
 
'The human heart was made for Thee of Lord, and will not rest till it rests in Thee.'
 
God bless
Back to Top
Gulliver View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member


Joined: 12 September 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 621
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gulliver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 September 2008 at 1:08pm
 
 
I just had a look. I think I have strayed into very deep water. The Isaac/Ishmael controversy. I have no idead about any of that and cannot comment. I thought the idea of God's having possession of the heart though a sprituality reality - whatever the context of the story. That's what appealed to me.
 
God bless
Back to Top
Ron Webb View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar
Male atheist
Joined: 30 January 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 2467
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 September 2008 at 6:34pm

Quote `Take now thy son,' said God to Abraham, `thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt-offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.' (Gen 22:2)

I think this story is one of the most repugnant in the Bible, second only to the the story of Job.

Here is wisdom.  If you ever hear a voice speaking to you, claiming to be God and urging you to kill an innocent person, say: "You are not God, you are Satan.  You are a liar and I will not obey you."

Any other response is madness.

Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
Back to Top
Gulliver View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member


Joined: 12 September 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 621
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gulliver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 September 2008 at 1:35am
I thought you were an 'atheist' Ron.
 
Telling someone to reply to satan. lol
 
I don't know where I am with all of this, if anywhere to be honest. Maybe it's the 'dark night' of 'faith' -  or maybe I need locking up ;-) Indeed, if I heard a voice telling me to kill an innocent person, I'd hope I'd do more than tell satan to take a hike.
 
I think the message of the story is, 'poverty of spirit'.
 
You're an intelligent person Ron. I think you may have your own perspectives on what that may or may not mean, and how it may or may not apply to your own life. I don't take these stories literally.
 
There is a freedom of spirit in, 'possessing nothing'. When the heart is not attached to anything in particular, there is a freedom to love all, or aspire to. If I believe in God, which I think I do, I don't believe that same God is some tryrannical brute out to kill dead things. I can't believe in a God like that. I think whatever 'blasphemy' is - is just that. To call what is 'good' 'evil'.  
 
I think it's all about perspective. We will 'see' what we want to 'see' - and that is coloured by life and experience. Or maybe we 'see' what we are ready to see. Sometimes it seems we go to 'hell' to 'see' the possibility of 'heaven'. I don't think you can rationalise or intellectualise faith, to the point you can make someone else 'believe'. We all journey through life, and we come to times of belief, dis belief and maybe belief again, maybe not. But on our death beds, as long as we remain somehow able to think, wonder. We may well wonder if this was it - all there is and who or what 'God' may or may not be. I've said this before somewhere. It's a terrible thing to be with some dying soul and them full of the, 'fear of hell'. Indeed, they may well have been better off believing nothing. Maybe it is all a clinging to some vague hope of something 'better' - just to get us through the (can't say the word) of this life.
 
Maybe there is a God, whom John, in the Christian 'gospel' says, 'is Love'. And everything is in some mysterious way an expression of that very Love. Or maybe we are all just one off entities who live and die and rot, having been capable of what seems the greatest 'good' and the greatest of 'evils' - and we make God in our own image.
 
But then someone said somewhere else, that what we consider 'good' is all relative too. Living a 'good life' is not 'good' enough. I don't see how a person can claim to believe in God, and that God is good, the source of goodness itself - and then claim that a 'good life' is not 'good enough'. Something just not right or 'good' about that somehow.
 
I too find the whole 'reward' system, in some aspects of 'theology', a bit confusing. Do I help others because I want to, feel they may be worthy of that help, or because God is going to give me a big party in the sky when it's all over or burn me in hell forever. Maybe I am a humanist. I wonder that a humanist is not the truest kind of Christian. They do it for the sake of doing - not for a reward in a hereafter. I don't think it's possible to 'love' or 'worship' God without loving our fellow human beings, indeed every created thing, or seeking to, as a professing 'believer'.
 
The 'great commandments' speak of seeking 'God' with all the heart, soul and mind. And to love the neighbour as the self. If 'self knowledge is a sure path to God' - then that's where the journey must take us, I'd imagine - within. Life teaches us that we are no different to any other human being on the planet, and we are all, every single one of us capable of the greatest 'good' and the greatest of 'evil's. Our 'redemption' is in there somewhere I think. Understanding this - that we are all the same - supposedly  'made in the image of God.'  Not the other way around.
 
Have you ever seen the movie, "The Keys of the Kingdom," with Gregory Peck ? It's an interesting story. Peck is a priest sent to do missionary work in China - young, idealistic, naieve etc. How he meets with christian missionaries of other denominations,' and the way the relationships 'tween these develop and grow. Then he has a friend who'd gone on to become a doctor and who visits with him in China. He is an 'atheist'  - but a 'good' man who devoted his life to caring for others in a professional capacity. He is shot I think, and as he is dying, he still cannot be dishonest and confess a 'belief' in 'God'. But somehow in that 'good life' and that honest 'confession' at his death - there is some sense of 'redemption'.
 
Fear of hell did not dominate his thinking or belief - not even in 'the end'. He lived honestly and died honestly. If there is a 'God', I wonder how God would 'judge' such a 'creature'.
 
If Peck's face is anything to go by, in the movie - then we have some sense of what that may or may not be. Maybe with his dying friend he is the very, 'image of God' - the compassionate God anyway - if that God exists.
 
Anyway, I am sure you've heard it all before. It's your life, your own journey to make Ron. Maybe some day when we are burning in hell forever and ever and ever amen, we can say, 'hello, you got a cigarette, am gaspin' "  lol ;-) I don't think we need wait for a 'hereafter' to know of the possibilities of 'heaven' and 'hell'. Both are pretty evident here.
 
The journey continues.
 
I don't know Ron. I am not going to try and pretend I do know, have answers, cause I don't.  I can't pretend I have the 'intellectual' capacity to 'prove' 'God' exists. I don't. I just have my own life, my own experience, and at this point my own belief that indeed God does exist - very much so. Even in 'hell'. Now there's a paradox for you. It's all about perspective methinks - and that changes with life. Like the humanist, and christian, and muslim and jew - the 'real' of these, actually believing in the 'same God'.  "By their fruits you shall know them."
 
 
Or maybe that lil ol' adage of Buddy: "the world's so full of c....   why bother wipin' your as... !"   LOL  When I heard that first time I laughed till I cried. I wonder if Jesus or Muhammad would. I truly believe, given the 'context' they surely would. Bet they had days like that themselves - being truly human n' all that. Not sure you can be a real 'saint' if you haven't learned the process of being 'real'lly human. Again - it's all a big paradox.
 
Like I say, it's all a matter of perspective, I think.
 
Take care.
 
And may 'satan', as you seem to believe in him/it, take that hike and leave you well alone. lol
 
 
IF there is a God Ron. May that 'good' God bless you too ;-)
 
K
 
Sorry I can't get into very serious and intellectual arguments. I just don't have that ability. But we can all share a good laugh.


Edited by Gulliver - 20 September 2008 at 3:43am
Back to Top
Gulliver View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member


Joined: 12 September 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 621
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gulliver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 September 2008 at 4:16am
PS
 
Thanks too Ron for your gentle reply. Shows me you too have a 'good' heart ;-) You did not claim to, 'believe' or 'know'. You just said, "I think." Considerate of the innocent and the harm that might be done him/her.
 
Maybe we're all coming from different perspectives, whether scientific or religious/spiritual - or both. Endeavouring to liberate our selves and others from many levels of that 'yoke' of 'ignorance'. Many colours make light white. Or is it white light.  
 
That can only be a 'good' thing, I think.  May the Force be with you.
 
K
Back to Top
honeto View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar
Male Islam
Joined: 20 March 2008
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 2487
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote honeto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 October 2008 at 11:56am
I am craving to jump in in this interesting conversation and very interesting takes by all. 
It is an important point,  as the human sacrifice was the main reason given by the Catholics to kill or convert the civilizations of the Americas.
In my belief, Abraham's offering of his son as a sacrifice was never materialized. Thus there was no human sacrifice. It was only a Grand test of Faith for a prophet.
It may take a little effort to understand the whole thing.
 
In family oriented cultures around the world, in the east in particular, having sons and more sons is a sign of one's strenght, and wealth. They are adored and to be something proud of.
 
As we read that Prophet Abraham did not have any sons for the major part of his life.  When God finally grant him a son, its hard to imaginehow much of a delight that son would have been for an old Abraham. Who would have taken every extra step to take care of him, protect him from harm, and most of all to love him the most. And at that time probably the most dear to Abraham was his only son. 
I have lived in places where even to this day someone would love to death and charish that son as the most valuable possession in similar situation as that of Abraham. 
Now we all go through tests and trails in this life, so did the prophets. In fact they because of their status as prophets go through much harder and bigger tests of faith.
Imagine to give something you love, is hard. Now imagine to give something you love the Most!
Abraham was also a man apart from being a prophet.  To be asked to give away, sacrifice the one that was the most beloved to him must not be easy, the one who came in his life after so long and after so many prayers I am sure.
But as a man of faith, he did not seem to have second thoughts. Of cousre, God can take back anything He gives, but this was just a test of faith, nothing more. Abraham was successfull in this test. And God accepted his offereing by intendng to fulfillthe command, even though his son was never harmed at the end.
 
We don't have to worry about that kind of tests and commands as only prophets recieved such direct communications and commands from God. We, the followers of the prophets only follow what is revealed for us as a guide through them.
 
Hasan
 


Edited by honeto - 05 October 2008 at 12:06pm
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 11>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd.