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How did Jesus die
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minuteman View Drop Down
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 That is a very good description of events of Crucifixion, briefly by robin and greater detail by Nazarene. It will also prove that Jesus did not die on the Cross and it is a miracle of the Quran that saves Jesus from any ignoble (cursed) death on the Cross.
 
 The narration of Nazarene is very good. It is enough to prove the truth of the Quran that they could not kill Jesus on the cross (Crucify) and they could not kill him in any other way. But it was made to appear as such to them (as if he was a dead man).
 
 Because Jesus did not die on the cross so we have to set aside the question "How did Jesus die?" or "Who killed Jesus?" But whatever happened to Jesus, the extreme pain and suffering on the cross, it is certain that jews are responsible for that. Not the Romans.
 
 The Jews took upon themselves the responsibility of the blood of Jesus. So there is no need to blame any one else. It was the Jews in trouble due to the preachings of Jesus. They had been trapped in their sinful life. They wanted to get rid of Jesus and not the Romans.
 
 Another important thing has come to light by the taking of Jesus to Herod and herod not doing  anything against Jesus. But will explain later.


Edited by minuteman - 13 September 2008 at 12:50am
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Nazarene Are you an Essene following the Gospel of the Holy Twelve?
 

Lection LXVI

Jesus Again Teacheth His Disciples
Concerning The Nature Of God
The Two In One

1. AGAIN Jesus taught them saying, God hath raised up witnesses to the truth in every nation and every age, that all might know the will of the Eternal and do it, and after that, enter into the kingdom, to be rulers and workers with the Eternal,
2. God is Power, Love and Wisdom, and these three are One. God is Truth, Goodness and Beauty, and these three are One.
3. God is Justice, Knowledge and Purity, and these three are One. God is Splendour, Compassion and Holiness, and these three are One.
4. And these four Trinities are One in the hidden Deity, the Perfect, the Infinite, the Onely.
5. Likewise in every man who is perfected, there are three persons, that of the son, that of the spouse. and that of the father, and these three are one.
6. So in every woman who is Perfected are there three persons, that of the daughter, that of the bride, and that of the mother and these three are one; and the man and the woman are one, even as God is One
7. Thus it is with God the Father-Mother, in Whom is neither male nor female and in Whom is both, and each is threefold, and all are One in the hidden Unity.
8. Marvel not at this, for as it is above so it is below, and as it is below so it is above, and that which is on earth is so, because it is so in Heaven.
9. Again I say unto you, I and My Bride are one, even as Maria Magdalena, whom I have chosen and sanctified unto Myself as a type, is one with Me; I and My Church are One. And the Church is the elect of humanity for the salvation of all.
10. The Church of the first born is the Maria of God. Thus saith the Eternal, She is My Mother and she hath ever conceived Me, and brought Me forth as Her Son in every age and clime. She is My Bride, ever one in Holy Union with Me her Spouse. She is My Daughter, for she hath ever issued and proceeded from Me her Father, rejoicing in Me.
11. And these two Trinities are One in the Eternal, and are strewn forth in each man and woman who are made perfect, ever being born of God, and rejoicing in light, ever being lifted up and made one with God, ever conceiving and bringing forth God for the salvation of the many.
12. This is the Mystery of the Trinity in Humanity, and moreover in every individual child of man must be accomplished the mystery of God, ever witnessing to the light, suffering for the truth, ascending into Heaven, and sending forth the Spirit of Truth And this is the path of salvation, for the kingdom of God is within.
13. And one said unto him, Master, when shall the kingdom come? And he answered and said, When that which is without shall be as that which is within, and that which is within shall be as that which is without, and, the male with the female, neither male nor female, but the two in One. They who have ears to hear, let them hear.


John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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 robin has not replied to my question about the sin of the devil (Satan).
 
 The topic is "How did Jesus die"
 
 Joseph who took the body of Jesus into custody was a nazarene, white robed people (society). He was a member of that Society and so was Jesus. That Joseph was a very influential person and a secret friend of Jesus. He could not do anything openly but tried his best to save Jesus. In collusion with Pilate, he saved Jesus.
 
 He took the body of Jesus into custody and did not let any enemy to come near the body (living body). He took Jesus into his tomb (room like place with a window) and he had a physician (I forget the name) to attend with lot of medicines, special ointments to be applied to the wounds.
 
 Every one knows that nobody applies ointments to a dead body. That fellow, Joseph of Armethea was an Essene or Nazarene and he played great part in saving Jesus. When Joseph went to Pilate to take orders for the body, Pilate said, "Has he died so quickly?" Pilate could not imagine that Jesus could die in such a short time.
 
 Also, the word crucify in Arabic is "Salabu". That has a meaning pointing to the bones that the fat from the bones is melted, wasted. And it has the meaning to break the bones. But the bones of Jesus were not broken. So he was not crucified. (The act of crucifixion was not completed.)


Edited by minuteman - 16 September 2008 at 11:29pm
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Sign Reader and seekshidayth and others interested

Plz read all of these 2 posts bcz im trying to make sense from the the following explanation and it will definitely reach the conclusion that jesus died a natural death and wasnt raised.

I was studying a very interesting argument of a  Ahmedi khalifa Hazrat Mirza Bashir Ahmad in which he says that this world is Governed by two laws: Law Of Shariah and Law of Nature.
The law of shariah  pertains to the moral and spiritual condition of man and is brought to the world by Prophets and Messengers.
Law of Nature  is responsible for the working of the universe and follows the system of cause and effect and the properties of different objects, whose effects we observe all around us.

like if a roof becomes weak to a certain degree, it is natural that it will collapse. it is also natural that a person standing under it will die or seriously get injured.

The law of nature know no friends or foes. Anything which comes within their sphere of action will be affected one way or the other.
(There are, of course, exceptions, which transpire under a separate law in the form of miracles and answered prayers and pertain to God�s special decree.)
If a blast happens their will be destruction, its natural and anyone in its vicinity will get hurt.

No matter how much good he is, true he is, he will die bcz he didnt die under the law of shariah, he died under the law of nature. as both these laws dont  interfere with each other.

and even God doesnt interfere in his law of nature. God do not break his own rules and act against ones logic bcz  he is powerful, wise, all knowing that he without breaking his own rules can still have his own way, carryout his plans, make  millions of way out while remaining within his laws.
Thats what his mastery is that he carries out his plan in such a way that neither the law of nature is interfered and neither it appeals illogical to us
otherwise we're objecting his power , ability that God had to break his own rule to carry a particular task and so limiting his power.

My friend  told me that some of his relatives lived in kashmir and when the tremor hit kashmir in 2005, the whole house came down where they lived and all of them died  except for his 7 yr old cousin. They all died bcz it is natural (law of nature) that when a concrete house collapses, 99% chances are that people inside will die but the reason for the boy surviving was that to his luck he was standing below the stairs at that time and we know that the stairs go upwards at a 45 degree angle and
so when the stairs fell, it still created that angle from the ground which gave the boy a safe space and he came out unhurt. so u see his life was written and God had to save him but he didnt interfere in the law of nature to save him as the house did collapse. and it definitely appeals to our very own logic.

God didnt do anything against our logic to save that boy neither did he break his own law of nature.
It wasnt like God made the roof hang in mid air to save someone but made such a way out for the boy that it completely agrees to logic.

I was watching on a Tv where a person tells that he was having iftar at the Marriott hotel 20 minutes before the blast and was also to have dinner there but his mother called him that she is not feeling well so plz come home and he  left. Do u see a sign here how again God made a way out without interfering in his own law bcz the law still carried out its work in the form of destruction that happened bcz of blast but still saved those that he wanted too.

and there are millions of such incidents.

The main point to explain this is to just show how  powerful is and everything is so easy for him that he can easily get his work/plan carried out without interfering in any law or using his super powers.
But when it comes to jesus, we muslims are trying to prove that God had to go against his laws, had to rely on his super power to save jesus.

WE are trying to say that God became so helpless, so short of ideas, had no other way out in front of these tiny creatures that he had to break his own law and be dependent on his ultimate power to save jesus by raising him to the skies. Do u really believe that to defeat these humans, God had to rely on that power and had no other way.
Any one can answer that?

We can make millions of plans but God  can demolish all of them in such a way that neither they appear illogical nor against the rules  of this world.

There is a very important event that took place in the history of islam related to prophet[sa] where God saved his prophet[sa] without any effort or use of his super powers or going against human logic

cont.....


Edited by H3OO - 30 September 2008 at 8:40am
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continued

We do know that when Hazrat Muhammed [pbuh]was Migrating from Makkah to Medina, some Makkans Followed him
to take his life.
If im not wrong, he took refuge in some mosques during migration and (copy and paste from a website} the the assassins were lying in wait for the planned strike, they, on several occasions, looked slyly at the bed, and were assured by the blanket of the Holy Prophet that he was sleeping inside it. They did not realise that it was Ali under the blanket, whilst the Holy Prophet opened the door and walked away unnoticed (bcz while waiting the makkans went into deep sleep).
As planned, the assassins, naked swords in  their hands, broke in and removed the blanket from the sleeper's face. They were surprised to find
 Ali there instead of the Holy Prophet. They viewed his composure and steady expression of resolute courage, and having failed to obtain any information about the whereabouts of the Holy Prophet, disappointed,
they stepped out one by one.

The Holy Prophet had asked his companions not to leave their homes on the night of the migration, but he found Abu Bakr following him on his way to Madina. However, he allowed him to accompany him and they took refuge in a cave, because after finding Ali in the bed, the conspirators at once started the quest for the Holy Prophet. By Allah's will, a spider wove a web across the mouth of the cave, and in front of it a pigeon laid her eggs. Seeing this, the pursuers presumed that no one had entered the cave for a long time and did not search it.

So just Look at these events from islamic history and one wonders God could've done the same here as well as he did to jesus that is to raise him to the skies to save him but the fact is he is powerful and undefeatable and he knows how to save his people without  breaking his rules. He is not helpless or weak in front us that he has to rely on them to defeat us. and how easily above he saved prophet[sa] and they[killers] had no clue.

Now we go to the Quranic verses
4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
4:158 Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;

It is clear that it says that they neither killed him nor crucified him but by no way mentions that he was physically raised to the skies.
When he was not killed neither crucified by them, then there are only 2 options left, one is natural death and second is, raised to the skies
but in my prev post i have discussed that in detail as how that might not be possible (plz read my prev post)

and also

Just look the sentence " it was made to appear to them".

This does gives us a hint that he was physically present there and it  appeared to them as if he were dead (it was made to appear to them that..) .
if he[as] were physically raised into the skies, then how come it was made to appear to them that he was dead, it can only be possible if he were physically present in front of them and  appeared to be dead in front them as they could physically see him and thought he was dead but he couldve been in comma. can u answer that (S*R, or seekshidayath)

The second verse so could very well mean spiritually that is natural death.
specially in the light of the above stated explanation.

and as God states at the end of verse that he is powerful and wise and that is evident from the fact how he made a fool of these people [who are to this day still in a delusion that they crucified him] and saved jesus from their clutches while not breaking any of his rule or relying on his super powers. He will always create ways within the rules of this world that he set himself. bcz he is powerful and wise.

Now  i have discussed quran, islamic events and logic/common sense and it does leads  to the point that jesus died a natural death.



Edited by H3OO - 30 September 2008 at 11:30pm
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Originally posted by H3OO H3OO wrote:



Now we go to the Quranic verses
4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
4:158 Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;

It is clear that it says that they neither killed him nor crucified him but by no way mentions that he was physically raised to the skies.
When he was not killed neither crucified by them, then there are only 2 options left, one is natural death and second is raised into the skies
and in my prev post i have discussed that in detail as how that might not be possible otherwise we're objecting to God's ability that he was helpless against those people [nauzbillah] and had no way out and so had use his ultimate power and break his own rules.


Just look the sentence " it was made to appear to them".

This does gives us a hint that he was physically present there and it  appeared to them as if he were dead (it was made to appear to them that..) .
if he[as] were physically raised into the skies, then how come it was made to appear to them that he was dead, it can only be possible if he were physically present in front of them and  appeared to be dead [though he wasnt]. can u answer that (S*R, or seekshidayath)

The second verse so could very well mean spiritually that is natural death.
specially in the light of the above stated explanation.

and as God states at the end of verse that he is powerful and wise and that is evident from the fact how he made a fool of these people [who are to this day still in a delusion that they crucified him] and saved jesus from their clutches while not breaking any of his rule or relying on his super powers. He will always create ways within the rules of this world that he set himself. bcz he is powerful and wise.

 
 
The second coming of Isa (a.s) has been mentioned in hadith and the verse following 4:158 is an allusion to that.
 
004.159 
 And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-
 
Whose death is this verse mentioning, Isa (a.s) or the people of the book? Isa (a.s) certainly. As the verse goes; everyone of the people of the book have to believe in Isa (a.s) before Isa's (a.s) death. (Hadith mentioning the abolishment of Jizyah by Isa (a.s) is supported by this verse 4:159). Therefore its evident from the Quran that Isa (a.s) is to come again.
Now we all know that once a person is dead, thats the end of his/her life until the resurrection before judgement day. If we're to assume that Isa (a.s) had to face death, to be raised by Allah; then Allah has to break His rule to resurrect Isa (a.s) for the second coming (and that we all know is not the quality of Almighty Allah).
The basis for claiming that Isa (a.s) has died is the word "mutawaffeeka" in 3:55. "Tawaffa" means "to take the soul" and Allah takes our souls during our sleep or in death and to know the meaning of "tawaffa" in a verse, the action following the word should be considered. In 3:55 there's no mention of death and hence "mutawaffeka" should be interpretated as -"to take the soul (in a state of sleep). And Allah knows best.
 
'Trust everyone but not the devil in them'
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Continuation:
 
Lets analyse 4:157-158.
 
4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
 
As this verse shows, Isa (a.s) was not killed nor crucified. Some may argue that he was put on the cross but survived the crucifixion. If "crucifixion" means 'death on the cross', what do we call the act of impaling on the cross? Just impaling on the cross is also crucifixion whether death is caused or not. Hence its clear from this verse that Isa (a.s) was not tortured, dragged through the streets and put on the cross to die. The people could not harm him in any way as another verse proves. 

005.110
YUSUFALI: Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'

Therefore  " it was made to appear to them"  should mean that whatever happened at that time, Isa (a.s) was not harmed in anyway by the Jews but they thought that they got rid of him as Allah made it appear to them so......and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
 
4:158 Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;
 
Also see :
 
003.055 : Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

005.117 : "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.

From these verses it can be concluded that Allah took the soul of Isa (a.s) and raised his body up to the heavens. We can assume that Isa (a.s) is not in an active state as his soul is with Allah but when the time for his second coming comes, Allah will send back his soul to his body. Allah knows best.

Allah took up Muhammad (sal) for the Mi'raj from the same Jerusalem Isa (a.s) was taken up. Allah did not have to cause Rasulullah to die for the Mi'raj.
 
 
 
 
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WE are trying to say that God became so helpless, so short of ideas, had no other way out in front of these tiny creatures that he had to break his own law and be dependent on his ultimate power to save jesus by raising him to the skies. Do u really believe that to defeat these humans, God had to rely on that power and had no other way.
Any one can answer that?
 
For the record, there's no such thing as the use of the ultimate power or superpowers by Allah to get things done. Everything's easy for him; 'Be and it is'.
'Trust everyone but not the devil in them'
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