Love as evil

 

I am not going to 'argue' about anything Hasan, and don't intend to. I only give thoughts and opinions about things, which is not very logical I know. Dr Spock of the Starship Enterprise hates to see me being beamed on board ;-) lol   I don't know for sure, and I keep saying that. Neither do you, and I will say that to you till the day we are both on our death beds - 'arguing' over who may be 'right' or 'wrong'.

 

I don't claim you are 'wrong' because I cannot and have no desire to. God is bigger than all of this - certainly our teeny intellects.  You cannot claim me to be wrong either - because you don't know. If the Qu'ran were the Word of God - then like the Bible, claimed to be the "Word of God' - that same Word has yet to reveal its deepest secrets. In fact it never will reveal all it contains. This is wisdom. This 'Word' speaks to the heart prepared to hear it. Just an opinion mind you :-)

 

I wouldn't waste time in assuming any belief I have to be 'wrong,' H, as I don't know what I truly believe - there are so many variations on what may be 'true'. I've 'argued' with other 'logicians'  - and they didn't make much sense in the end either. 

 

I hear people who speak from the heart and with humility. Logic is cold and heartless. But that's just me.

 

If I am to be damned for not seeing things and believing as you do - so be it. I heard it all before, believe me :-) From one Christian denomination and another - even within Catholicism at times, you were made to believe it.  I am not going to believe in some God I have to fear. I'd sooner go live 'eternally' with the shaitan.

 

I am not claiming to believe in anything - 'cept a belief in God. I do believe in God and always have, and will till I die I am sure - Inch Allah.  I've questioned the other things, and heard from all sides and none, till I thought my head would implode. All it was in the end for the most part were men flattering their pathetic egos. I can 'prove' 'logically' that God exists and this is how God thinks, feels and blah blah blah.

 

As me granny used to always say, "God save us all from the bites of the cannibals."

 

My 'argument' is that you cannot say what is in another's heart when they pray,  which is exactly what you presume to do, when you perceive Catholics or any other, as praying 'to' - this, that or the other. Like the mothers with twelve children to feed and clothe, who did not have fine books and scholars etc etc to consult. They prayed to God in their own way, with the maternal heart that God made and understands,  and their faith got them through things most men would never cope with in ten life times. One of those silly Bukhari hadith would suggest that there are more women than men in hell. What kind of garbage is that, and a true offense to the good God ?! You really would have to be indoctrinated and throughly brainwashed to believe some of that tripe.

 

Abraham destroyed inanimate things as they were considered/perceived to be creators, or representatives of the Creator. I do not know of ANY Catholic who prays to anything or anyone, animate or inanimate, in this world or the next, as the Creator. Of course it is best, and should be that we go direct to God/Allah. But that journey, it seems to me H, begins with the Creation itself. The commandments of God - as you call, the 'criterion,' for beginning to know/journey to God - are written in the heart - a creation of Allah too. We begin our journey in and through the creation, beginning and ending in the 'heart'. The Qu'ran prohibits the 'worship' of anything created, in derogation of Allah. Rightly so. I have no issue with that at all. Do you know for a fact that those people you speak of, pray in their hearts to anything or anyone as Creator ? They seek intercession as I might ask that you intercede, offer 'dua'(?) for me

 

"If it sound wrong to you or any then it must be so, because our inner self has a God given buit in balanced critarian, if we ignore it or sucumb to other desires and plans we fail ourselves. And what a failiure that is.

 

 

Mary is not the 'mother of God' for me. God does not have a mother. But it is said that as mother of Christ - the God-Man - if that were true, in some sense, she can be said to be the 'mother of God'. We are all called to bring God to this world. Bring forth the 'Christ' in each of us - that 'image of God' in which we are made, according to Christian belief. All called to be, 'mothers of God' in that sense - giving 'birth' to the Christ like in each of us - the one who will 'love one another as I have loved you," and if necessary, 'lay down his life for his friends.'   We are called to be no less. To love God with all we are, and to love the neighbour as the self. This is the realisation of the Kingdom of God within. As Paul said, "I nolonger live in I, but Christ lives in me," and to realise the Kingdom without - God's will 'being done on earth as it is in Heaven'. And we bring Christ to this world, or should do - having followed/following Him all the way. We become 'living sacrifices' to God - by emulating Christ and living 'holy' lives of self sacrificial love - of God, neighbour and self.  That, for me, is what it means to 'be saved'. Believing the words is not enough. We have to live them and that is very hard.  "Take up your cross.......... "  I think the bible would suggest that God has no favourites. So, if Mary were above and beyond all others - that would contradict this claim. I think the key to all of it is in understanding Mary's humility. When you take this on board - to heart - the terms given to Mary can begin to make 'sense' - for want of a better word. Humility is a 'key' to the Kingdom, I am sure. "The first shall be last and the last first". "I came to serve not to be served." Christ constantly seeks to have us think about humilty, that 'pearl of great price' and what it can mean to possess such a gift/grace.  It is a 'key' to Heaven.

 

I am not saying or claiming it's true Hasan - what Catholicism may or may not claim about Mary. But I don't see it as 'anti' God either.  I am really just saying, I think, that it's not as black and white as you, or a verse PERHAPS (I may misunderstand it) - in the Qu'ran, would have us believe. That Catholics 'worship' Mary as a 'god' 'in derogation of Allah'.  When you see what God achieves though a humble soul - the heights to which it is called, can be 'raised' - you do look in awe, wonder and veneration at this work of the good God, and in doing that 'worship' God Himself in acknowledging what He does for his 'lowly servant's.   Mary herself says, "My soul MAGNIFIES the Lord........   " in the Magnigicat. I wonder if we can say/sing the same thing. One day Inch Allah.  Do books and 'scholars' 'magnify' the Lord ? Do they show the reality and true nature of God ? If so - good. In looking to Mary - we can see a soul that 'magnifies' the Lord. Humility is a key that opens up the secrets of Heaven, and the understanding of them, it seems to me. Pride and logic never will attain this. It's a work of the heart. I must read the chapter on Myriam in the Qu'ran, chapter 19, and see what it really says - another time.

 

Qu'ran - 5:116 "Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. "

 

Why does the Qu'ran itself set Mary up as example of chastity, submission, humility, - an immaculate of heart in loving God ? Someone for women, AND men to emulate.

 

I realise that may offend some men, suggesting them emulate a woman in acquiring true faith and submission to God in love. It's their loss. 

 

 

Sorry H, I am all ove the place again. I am useless at 'logic'. My heart takes over and will be the ruination and damnation of me I am sure.

 

Perfect love casts out all fear.

 

 

And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men,   worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah.?"   He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
	Wa-ith qala Allahu yaAAeesa ibna maryama aanta qulta lilnnasiittakhithoonee waommiya ilahayni min dooni Allahiqala subhanaka ma yakoonu lee an aqoola malaysa lee bihaqqin in kuntu qultuhu faqad AAalimtahutaAAlamu ma fee nafsee wala aAAlamu ma feenafsika innaka anta AAallamu alghuyoobi

 

The font sizes in this are all over the place. Can I make this all the same size ?

 

God bless you

 

:-)

 

Oh.  P.S.

 

"Second, I have seen Catholics refer Mary as "Mother of God.

 

Have you read the entire bible yourself Minute and everything on all things Christian, 'real' 'imagine' and 'unreal' ? ;-) One is hardly 'qualified' to say what is real or unreal till one does, doesn't one agree ?!  As the English would say ;-) lol 

 

If one starts from the position of thinking one knows all - is infallible - one loses me, as the Americans say, "from the get go." No one has all the truth Minute.  I am not about proving right and wrong - what you believe or I believe as right or wrong. I look to see what is similar on our journeys towards the same God - what draws together - not what divides. I may not understand all you believe, or how you practice your faith. I don't just say it's 'unreal' however. I look for the evidence of your faith lived in your life and by your words/actions.

 

In the Christian bible there is the, 'Transfiguration'. Happens on Mt Tabor. But as these stories are all 'corrupt'ed - referencing them here seems a rather pointless exercise. The appearance of Moses and Elijah, signifying the Law and the Prophets, who appear beside Jesus, in 'glory,' on the 'high mountain' - Mt Tabor. They appear with Jesus, speaking with Him - Jesus.  Jesus being 'transfigured'.  Moses, Elijah and Jesus together. IF this were a true event - then it would seem to suggest that the 'dead' are indeed 'alive' in God.

 

If we consider time anyway. Outside linear time -  perhaps the 'resurrection' has already happened, which would make this story a potential 'real'ity.

 

I think before anyone starts pontificating - like they have the 'infallible' truth on all things Christian, or Islam for that matter. They need to have read everything about these beliefs/claims of Christianity,  Islam from every possible source, for themselves, at the very least. I don't like people who think they are infallible ;-) lol

 

That means you need to read the entire bible, which I don't think you have done Minuteman, (forgive me if I am wrong)  - and all the rest with it, and don't just claim that so much in Christianity is 'unreal'.  Can you 'prove' angels exist ?

 

Like an angel appearing to a man in a cave, a man who is supposedly illiterate, and practically shouting at him, after terrorising him to near death - to "read!". How 'unreal' is that !  I know that is not the 'real'ity Minuteman. But I made the effort to find out for myself. 

 

 

"It has been proved by the post of Hasan that some christians do pray to Mary, the mother. That is in present times. But there had been some christian sects in Egypt long ago who took Mary as a Goddess beside Allah. That was about 600 A.D.

 

I will be 'simple' as I can be, and speak in 'real' terms - one thing at a time.

 

We all need to be much better informed on many things before we claim to know what may be real or unreal, methinks.

 

God bless  :-)

 

 

 

Is God sitting in a big throne waiting all alone for 'time' to 'end' - so he can sort us all out, and have those of us he wishes with him, in paradise and the others in hell.

 

Very limited 'view' - in my opinion.

 

I am sorry bout the way I express my 'questions' Hasan and Minuteman. I have never gotten into 'arguments' the way people do on these forum. Taking every point and detail and countering it with whatever.

 

If will try to be more specific from now on. But be patient cause it's not what I am used to. I just blabber off at the bit, as the saying goes. lol

 

God bless