The Great Jihad ?

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Ron: Well, if I have to explain to you that the word "if"
introduces a hypothetical or conditional clause, or that the phrase "used
to" means past tense, then I have no hope of explaining that "meticulous"
does not mean true or historically accurate.  So I give up.

Thank you for correcting my grammatical mistake. I
had to say �they have this habit�. However, it clears more
what I was going to say. Meticulous means extremely precise. I used �if�
condition to say that if Quran is meticulous beside you (as you already
claimed), then why do you need another reference to support it? If you say it
is extremely precise but historically not accurate, then in such a mixture I feel having no hope of understanding what you really believe in.
May be first you have to go to historians and
ask about the accuracy of Quran.

Salaams

Edited by myahya - 21 October 2008 at 1:36am

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myahya Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 06 February 2008 Status: Offline Points: 222	Post Options Post Reply Quote myahya Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 21 October 2008 at 1:25am
	Ron: Well, if I have to explain to you that the word "if" introduces a hypothetical or conditional clause, or that the phrase "used to" means past tense, then I have no hope of explaining that "meticulous" does not mean true or historically accurate. So I give up. Thank you for correcting my grammatical mistake. I had to say �they have this habit�. However, it clears more what I was going to say. Meticulous means extremely precise. I used �if� condition to say that if Quran is meticulous beside you (as you already claimed), then why do you need another reference to support it? If you say it is extremely precise but historically not accurate, then in such a mixture I feel having no hope of understanding what you really believe in. May be first you have to go to historians and ask about the accuracy of Quran. Salaams Edited by myahya - 21 October 2008 at 1:36am

Ron Webb Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Male atheist Joined: 30 January 2008 Location: Ottawa, Canada Status: Offline Points: 2467	Post Options Post Reply Quote Ron Webb Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 21 October 2008 at 5:56am
	IF they see a miracle. Hypothetical statement, not an actual miracle. Same as Quran 30:58. [sigh]
	Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.

Gulliver Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 12 September 2008 Status: Offline Points: 621	Post Options Post Reply Quote Gulliver Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 21 October 2008 at 6:13am
	Ever hear of, 'the miracle of the sun' Myaha ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Miracle_of_the_Sun You would wonder that if the moon were truly split, or the sun danced as reported at Fatima - that we'd be here at all, considering the cataclysmic events that should have followed.

peacemaker Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Moderator Group Male Joined: 29 December 2005 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3057	Post Options Post Reply Quote peacemaker Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 21 October 2008 at 10:53am
	Everyone, It is important that we comply with the rules of this section and the forum. Peace
	Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny? Qur'an 55:13

myahya Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 06 February 2008 Status: Offline Points: 222	Post Options Post Reply Quote myahya Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 22 October 2008 at 12:52am
	IF they see a miracle. Hypothetical statement, not an actual miracle. Same as Quran 30:58. �If clause� can also be used for describing what is always happening as an actual behavior: "If they see a miracle they say it is magic" simply describes that it is always happening as a fact (like about the other prophets), supporting and confirming what had happened. Because �IF� can also mean: whenever. Hypothetical statements are not the only applications of �if clause�. In addition, the verb tenses of the third verse of the translation I copied are wrong. In the Arabic text, in the third verse the tenses are simple past not present. Therefore the better translation is: Quran (54.3) And they denied (called (it) a lie), and followed their low desires; and every affair has its appointed term. Edited by myahya - 22 October 2008 at 1:03am

myahya Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 06 February 2008 Status: Offline Points: 222	Post Options Post Reply Quote myahya Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 22 October 2008 at 6:25am
	Gulliver: You would wonder that if the moon were truly split, or the sun danced as reported at Fatima - that we'd be here at all, considering the cataclysmic events that should have followed. Why do you think such a process should be cataclysmic? God is able to control it or not?

Gulliver Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 12 September 2008 Status: Offline Points: 621	Post Options Post Reply Quote Gulliver Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 22 October 2008 at 6:58am
	The moon being split, or the sun 'dancing' in the heavens would mean the end of us all. Of course it would be cataclysmic. Can God control it ? Well if God exists, then yes. If the moon were actually split, or the sun danced in the solar system - why did not the entire world witness such an event - at least the hemisphere. If God intervenes to the extent He will show 'signs' and wonders of that magnitude - why not prevent things like earthquakes or the Tsunami a few years ago. I don't know if these things happened or not Myaha. I am just wondering that if they did happen - they happened only in the minds of those who witnessed them ? At these 'Marian' apparitions it is claimed that prayer and fasting can 'avert' calamaties that befall mankind. In 1917 Mary is supposed to have said that World War 1 would soon end, which it did. But that if humanity did not return to God then another war - greater, and worse than the first would break out. WWII. Jesus did say that 'certain demons' can only be overcome with 'prayer and fasting'. I believe miracles do happen. I think I witnessed a few in my own life time. I just wonder about those of a magnitude of the moon being split or the sun dancing. That they would not be the end of us all. But then there were such miracles reported in the OT it would seem. The parting of the Red Sea etc. Dunno if they were in the Qu'ran or not.

myahya Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 06 February 2008 Status: Offline Points: 222	Post Options Post Reply Quote myahya Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 24 October 2008 at 4:30am
	The moon being split, or the sun 'dancing' in the heavens would mean the end of us all. Of course it would be cataclysmic. Can God control it? Well if God exists, then yes. Our discussion is based on the assumption of existence of God, if you are not sure about His existence yet. If the moon were actually split, or the sun danced in the solar system - why did not the entire world witness such an event - at least the hemisphere. Why the entire world should witness it at that particular time? Was there a Hubble Telescope or a space center, zooming on the moon all the time? Or you think ALL people on the earth had to be staring at moon at the very same moment? However, Islam left an evidence for the entire world forever: Quran. If God intervenes to the extent He will show 'signs' and wonders of that magnitude - why not prevent things like earthquakes or the Tsunami a few years ago. Earthquakes and Tsunamis can happen at any moment. Why do you not think that God has prevented millions of them, unless only a few among them for intellectual people to understand something? I don't know if these things happened or not Myaha. I am just wondering that if they did happen - they happened only in the minds of those who witnessed them? Although for everybody specific convincing evidences exist, but as I said before, today the entire world can witness Quran, a book with proved accuracy. In twenty first century (when human being is proud of science and intellect) it is the most consistent miracle, isn�t it? In addition, at the time of any prophet (as well as the last one), there were people who believed in them but did not demand a miracle. There were also people who demanded miracles and witnessed them but stayed unbeliever! Therefore, it proves that the existence of miracle and watching is not enough. A pure deeply-willing heart for truth is also needed. I believe miracles do happen. I think I witnessed a few in my own life time. Yes Gulliver, for everyone there are many signs I believe. I just wonder about those of a magnitude of the moon being split or the sun dancing. That they would not be the end of us all. But then there were such miracles reported in the OT it would seem. The parting of the Red Sea etc. Dunno if they were in the Qu'ran or not. The prophet of Islam was illiterate. Thus, he did not read any book (including NT or OT) nor did anybody train him. Edited by myahya - 24 October 2008 at 5:29am

The Great Jihad ?

Ron: Well, if I have to explain to you that the word "if" introduces a hypothetical or conditional clause, or that the phrase "used to" means past tense, then I have no hope of explaining that "meticulous" does not mean true or historically accurate. So I give up.

IF they see a miracle. Hypothetical statement, not an actual miracle. Same as Quran 30:58.

�If clause� can also be used for describing what is always happening as an actual behavior:

"If they see a miracle they say it is magic" simply describes that it is always happening as a fact (like about the other prophets), supporting and confirming what had happened. Because �IF� can also mean: whenever. Hypothetical statements are not the only applications of �if clause�.

In addition, the verb tenses of the third verse of the translation I copied are wrong. In the Arabic text, in the third verse the tenses are simple past not present. Therefore the better translation is:

Gulliver: You would wonder that if the moon were truly split, or the sun danced as reported at Fatima - that we'd be here at all, considering the cataclysmic events that should have followed.

The moon being split, or the sun 'dancing' in the heavens would mean the end of us all. Of course it would be cataclysmic. Can God control it? Well if God exists, then yes.

Our discussion is based on the assumption of existence of God, if you are not sure about His existence yet.

If the moon were actually split, or the sun danced in the solar system - why did not the entire world witness such an event - at least the hemisphere.

If God intervenes to the extent He will show 'signs' and wonders of that magnitude - why not prevent things like earthquakes or the Tsunami a few years ago.

Earthquakes and Tsunamis can happen at any moment. Why do you not think that God has prevented millions of them, unless only a few among them for intellectual people to understand something?

I don't know if these things happened or not Myaha. I am just wondering that if they did happen - they happened only in the minds of those who witnessed them?

Although for everybody specific convincing evidences exist, but as I said before, today the entire world can witness Quran, a book with proved accuracy. In twenty first century (when human being is proud of science and intellect) it is the most consistent miracle, isn�t it?

I believe miracles do happen. I think I witnessed a few in my own life time.

Yes Gulliver, for everyone there are many signs I believe.

I just wonder about those of a magnitude of the moon being split or the sun dancing. That they would not be the end of us all. But then there were such miracles reported in the OT it would seem. The parting of the Red Sea etc. Dunno if they were in the Qu'ran or not.