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jusaskin View Drop Down
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    Posted: 08 November 2008 at 8:14pm

Another few basic questions if I may?

It is my understanding that Muhammad received all that is contained in the Quran a little at a time from the angel Gabriel, but not knowing how to read or write he would memorized what was told to him. Somewhere, I remember reading that he would later have the messages written down on various objects such as leaves, leather, bark, etc. and eventually it was all compiled into the Quran according to an order specified by Gabriel. This all took place over a period of 23 years.

Does anyone know the time span between Muhammad receiving the last message and the completion of the Quran in book form?

Also I read that what we refer to as "verse" is really "ayat" and means "signs". I see the term "signs" throughout the various English translation of the Quran, but am not sure I understand the proper meaning.  Merriam-Webster dictionary gives these synonyms for "sign" .... mark, token, note and symptom; whereas the American Heritage dictionary's thesaurus lists these helpful meanings:
1. something that signals the existence of something else (indication, evidence, etc)
2. evidence of passage along a path or course (track, trail, etc)
3. bodily movement used to convey meaning (gesture, nod, etc)
4. evidence of a thing that has disappeared (relic, trace, etc)
5. a conventional mark used in a writing system (symbol, character, etc)
6. to register in or as if in a book (catalogue, index, etc)
7. to affix one's signature to ( autograph, inscribe, etc)
8. to make bodily motions to augment or replace spoken expression (motion, indicate, etc)
9. to mark with an indication of official sanction (seal, validate, etc)
10. to communicate by means of such devices as lights or signs (semaphore, flag, etc)

Would someone care to explain what the term "sign" means, as used in the Quran?
joe
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seekshidayath View Drop Down
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Points: 3357 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote seekshidayath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2008 at 1:30am
 
Does anyone know the time span between Muhammad receiving the last message and the completion of the Quran in book form?

I guess it to be by 632 - 634  i.e during the khalifate of AbuBakr RA.

As you said  the ayat revealed , were written by scribes. Allah swt  informed the Holy Last Messenger {Pbuh} through  Jibreel AS to place some ayaah in some particular order according to their subject matter.  Thus the messenger of Allah swt,  on receiving such instructions would instruct the scribe to write in that prescribed order.  In addition, a large number of the Holy Companions of the Prophet, would memorize the Holy Qur�an or part of the Holy Qur�an.  Whenever the Holy  Messenger {Pbuh} them of the new revelation they would memorize that portion of Holy Qur�an.  In addition they would memorize in the order told them 

By then most of the  Companions {May Allah be pleased with them } had memorized Holy Qur�an by the time of  the last revelation.  Though some of them who could write and did write the entire    Holy  Qur�an on parchments of tree bark and animal shoulder bones camels as you said ), but it was not bound in book form.  The Need to preserve Holy Qur�an was felt when a large number of Huffaz were Martyred in the batltle of Yamaamah.  The Khalifa , Abu Bakr Siddique RA consulted  Umar RA  who actually told him that he was afraid that in the future wars many more Huffaz {one who memorises Quran is a Hafiz and its plural is huffaze}  might be martyred.  Therefore in order to preserve Holy Qur�an, he persuaded  Abu Bakr  RA to give an order to compile Holy Qur�an in book form.  But  Abu Bakr RA said to Umar RA that it was not done by the Holy last Messenger {Pbuh} and that he would not do it either.

Eventually we find however that the Holy Companions agreed, and then the compilation was prepared roughly in a book form.  These copies of Holy Qur�an stayed with Hazrat Abu Bakr until he died. 

Then they were passed on to Hazrat Umar RA and after that to Hafsah Bint Hazrat Umar.

As mentioned above, Hazrat Abu Bakr Rathiallahu anhu was very reluctant to preserve and compile Holy Qur�an, that is, in book form.  Though Hazrat Umar had been urging that something had to be done since so many Huffaz were being martyred.  Later on  Abu Bakr RA agreed with the proposal given to him by  Umar RA saying � That Allah SWT in regard to Holy Qur�an prevailed upon my chest ( heart) and therefore I formed the same opinion as that of  Umar RA  according to Divine communication/Ilhaam).�

Thus he formed a board under the Chairmanship of a sahaba Zaid RA who was a Hafiz and authority on the revelation in order and ayaah of the Holy Qur�an.  Therefore, according to the command of Abu Bakr , Holy Qur�an was collected from the Holy Companions  for scrutiny and technical study and copy.  Nevertheless, for every written chapter  Zaid  RA always demanded evidence of two Huffaz, to verify that the text written was the same as that heard from the  the Holy Messenger of Allah {Peace be upon him}.  Once this  was verified and confirmed, the scribes would commit it to writing.  There fore a master copy properly written and bound was prepared and duly presented to  Abu Bakr RA. Since the period of khalifate of Abu Bakr RA was between 632- 634, until his  death, so i guess the compilation of holy Qur'an on book form would be betweem that period, though its exact date / year cud not be noted.

Now to your next question :

Arabic word "Ayah"  means line or verse.  Its literal meaning is "sign"/ "Miracle".  Ayah is called a sign/miracle  because it is a challenge for all to produce a line of Holy Qur'an.  Therefore it is a living miracle; each line (ayah) is a miraculous challenge.The plural of Ayah is called Ayat, which means miracles

And regarding the meanings of the word "Sign" - amongst various other meanings, the most suitable to this context is - " miracle evidencing supernatural power". I referred Oxford dictionary for this.

Chambers says "A miraculous token"

Hope you have got your answers. We shall welcome more questions from you.

 
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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seekshidayath,
 
I very much appreciate your detailed explanations. Thank you!
 
Do you know if any of the original items upon which the messages were written have been preserved? I realize that would be a very long time to save these items, but with care there may be a chance something could survive.
 
As I have been searching the Quran through YaQuB, and USC websites because they provide multiple translations, I came upon a verse that puzzles me. While looking for "Gabriel", I noticed in 2:87 that Hilali-Khan translates "biroohi" as "Ruh-ul-Qudus [Jibrael (Gabriel) <><>]" while the other nine use either "Holy Spirit", "holy spirit", or "Spirit of Holiness". Then when I searched for instances of "biroohi", I was shown only two other verses, and all three verses were in reference to Jesus. Then a "holy spirit" search revealed one other verse, also Jesus related, and I presume it was translated from the word "roohu".
 
Perhaps you would not know why the translator Hilali-Khan would call the Holy Spirit "Gabriel", but if you do, I would appreciate hearing your explanation. Also, I find it curious that the term "Holy Spirit" only appears with information about Jesus, and that some translators capitalize it and others do not. Would you care to make some comments about that?
 
Joe
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seekshidayath View Drop Down
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Points: 3357 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote seekshidayath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 November 2008 at 11:23pm
 
That was indeed a good question. It made me to run down the books of different commentaries. Infact, it helped me to gain more knowledge regarding the term "Ruh-ul-Quddus". Let's have alook at the ayah you were referring to
 
" 2: 87 - And indeed, We gave Musa the Book and followed him up with a succession of Messengers. And We gave `Isa, the son of Maryam, clear signs and supported him with Ruh-il-Qudus. Is it that whenever there came to you a Messenger with what you yourselves desired not, you grew arrogant Some you disbelieved and some you killed.
 
In reference to the bold part of that ayah, here is the commentary from Ibn Katheer, the most referred, commentary of the Holy Qur'an.
 
"Allah sent the last Prophet among the Children of Israel, `Isa the son of Mary, who was sent with some laws that differed with some in the Tawrah. This is why Allah also sent miracles to support `Isa. These included bringing the dead back to life, forming the shape of birds from clay and blowing into them, afterwhich they became living birds by Allah's leave, healing the sick and foretelling the Unseen, as Ibn `Abbas stated. Allah also aided him with Ruh Al-Qudus, and that refers to Jibril. All of these signs testified to the truthfulness of `Isa and what he was sent with" So here Ruh al -Qudus is referred to Gabriel
 
Ruh-ul-Ameen, is also discussed in an other part of the Quran. 26 : 192, 193, 194, 195 is like this
 
" And truly, this is a revelation from the Lord of all that exists,. Which the trustworthy Ruh (Jibril) has brought down. . Upon your heart that you may be (one) of the warners,. In the plain Arabic language.
 
 
 Here the ruh, referred to is Gabriel. We muslims believe that it is only Gabriel,  who bought down the revelations. Here is an ayah, which makes us clear that it was of Gabriel who bought down the Qura'an.
 
"Say (O Muhammad ): "Whoever is an enemy to Jibril (Gabriel) (let him die in his fury), for indeed he has brought it (this Qur'an) down to your heart by Allah's permission, confirming what came before it (i.e. the Tawrah and the Injil) and guidance and glad tidings for the believers "
 
 So the ruh-ul-ameen and rul-ul-quddus referred in these ayahs , is Gabriel. Regarding its english translation  Ruh means spirit and quddus means holy, so the exact translation is holy spirit. So the translation is n't wrong. But we consider this  "holy spirit" to be angel Jibraeel.
 
Hope , you got your answer. I feel am not that clear. So i wish our other readers too to explain if they find me missing.
 
 
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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Originally posted by seekshidayath seekshidayath wrote:

 Hope , you got your answer. I feel am not that clear. 
 
I'm sure that there are many things that are a bit difficult to explain to a non-Muslim, but you did well. Translating from Arabic to English is propably very difficult and much can be lost. Thanks for your effort.
 
Would you mind going back to my previous post and let me know if you can answer the question about preservation of the original Quranic writings? I doubt there are any, but I'd like to get your, or someone's opinion.
joe
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Points: 3357 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote seekshidayath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 November 2008 at 9:36pm
 
Hope you can see that picture. Thats 11th century Quran.  Also read these links
 
 
 
This is an other copy of  preserved Qur'an
 
 
Look down the thread of that link above . And kindly click on the links given below that thread.
 
The historical credibility of the Qur'an is further established by the fact that one of the copies sent out by the Caliph Uthman is still in existence today. It lies in the Museum of the City of Tashkent in Uzbekistan, Central Asia [41]. A facsimile of the mushaf in Tashkent is available at the Columbia University Library in the USA [42]. This copy is proof that the text of the Qur�an we have in circulation today is identical with that of the time of the Prophet and his companions. A copy of the mushaf sent to Syria (duplicated before a fire in 1310AH/1892CE destroyed the Jaami' Masjid where it was housed) also exists in the Topkapi Museum in Istanbul [43], and an early manuscript on gazelle parchment exists in Dar al-Kutub as-Sultaniyyah in Egypt. More ancient manuscripts from all periods of Islamic history found in the Library of Congress in Washington, the Chester Beatty Museum in Dublin (Ireland) and the London Museum have been compared with those in Tashkent, Turkey and Egypt, with results confirming that there have not been any changes in the text from its original time of writing [44]."
From http://www.iiie.net/Articles/AuthenticQuran.html

Original Quran from Uthman in Topkaki Turkey:
---------------------------------------------
Museum website
Click books, then Quran to get to:
http://www.ee.bilkent.edu.tr/~history/Ext/Koran.html

The first Korans written in kufic script, besides the one believed to have been recited by khaliph Osman (RA) at the moment of his death (H.S.32)


Here's a picture of the original Quran:
Pic1
Pic2
Pic3



Sura 2:7-10

(Sura 7:86-87)
 
 
Kindly let me know, if the reader can view pictures, as i pasted them for the first time.
 
 


Edited by icforumadmin - 22 November 2008 at 10:41pm
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Was reading a book - "The true message of Jesus Christ", by Bilal Philips. I thought to share, a paragraph , relevant to the subject of discussion.

Ancient manuscripts of Qur'an found in library of congress in Washington, the Chester Beatty Museum in Dublin , Ireland, the London Museum, as well as museums in Tashkent, Turkey and Egypyt , from all periods of Islamic history , have been compared. The result of all such studies confirm that there has not been any change in the text from its original  writing. For example, the  "Institute fur Koranforschung" of the University of Munich , Germany , collected and collated over 42000, complete or incomplete copies of the Qur'an. After 50 years of study, they reported that in terms of differences between the various copies, there were no variants, except  occasional mistakes of copylists , which could easily be ascertained.
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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Points: 75 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jusaskin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 November 2008 at 4:54pm
Seekshidayath,
 
Thank you for all the trouble you must have gone through in order to bring this information.
 
I was aware of early manuscripts, but not to the extent that you have shown. My interest was in the possible existance of some of the original items upon which the verses were written prior to compilation into the Quran as we know it. I was intrigued by the variety of things used, such as leaves, pieces of leather and bones. I thought perhaps the bones and leather might have survived, but it seems that manuscripts are all that remains.
 
And as you inquired about pictures in the November 17th post ... the first two pictures of what was supposed to be the Quran merely showed up as a square box with an "x" in them. The last three did show two pages and a picture of the open book on a stand.
 
Thanks again for your time and effort.
 
joe
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