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honeto 
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 Posted: 20 November 2008 at 3:48pm |
Hi,
as the talk shifts from woman's head covering to promotion of peace, I must say that from what we know of the world so far, peace as what it means does not seem to be visible in sight. It may not be meant in the sense we all have been thinking. And thus we are setting on wrong expectations.
Injustices, aggressions, killings and misery continues on for whatever reasons and motives, God knows best and has the account of All.
I believe that peace has to do with the self and achieving peace is a personal goal because at the end it is the individual who will be held accountable for his/her intentions and actions. So, if a person has figured that way out he/she feels at peace within him/herself. Because the whole world in that person's life span is between the day he/she took the first breath and the day he/she took the last one.
I believe in peacefully sharing this planet, but I must say that I don't believe that an athiest, a fire worshipper, a pagan, or one who believe in more than one God, and the one who believes in One God is going to all achieve the same, niether they are same. By saying we all are right none of them will either achieve peace for themselves nor for others, niether in this life nor after this.
And to me it seems the purpose of life to find or correct my course and direction and help others to see it too as a duty before I take my last breath.
Now as far staying with the topic, Patty what about that quote where men are not to cover, yet I see many Catholic men with the Church do cover??
Hasan
Edited by honeto - 20 November 2008 at 4:13pm
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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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PattyaMainer
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Posted: 20 November 2008 at 4:26pm |
 honeto wrote:
Hi,
as the talk shifts from woman's head covering to promotion of peace, I must say that from what we know of the world so far, peace as what it means does not seem to be visible in sight. It may not be meant in the sense we all have been thinking. And thus we are setting on wrong expectations.
Injustices, aggressions, killings and misery continues on for whatever reasons and motives, God knows best and has the account of All.
I believe that peace has to do with the self and achieving peace is a personal goal because at the end it is the individual who will be held accountable for his/her intentions and actions. So, if a person has figured that way out he/she feels at peace within him/herself. Because the whole world in that person's life span is between the day he/she took the first breath and the day he/she took the last one.
I believe in peacefully sharing this planet, but I must say that I don't believe that an athiest, a fire worshipper, a pagan, or one who believe in more than one God, and the one who believes in One God is going to all achieve the same, niether they are same. By saying we all are right none of them will either achieve peace for themselves nor for others, niether in this life nor after this.
And to me it seems the purpose of life to find or correct my course and direction and help others to see it too as a duty before I take my last breath.
Now as far staying with the topic, Patty what about that quote where men are not to cover, yet I see many Catholic men with the Church do cover??
Hasan |
Hi Hasan,
As far as obtaining peace in this life goes, I leave it to God....not many gods, but the God of Abraham who created all people and all on earth, and all in the universe. It is far beyond me to say more.
Regarding your concern about Catholic men who do cover, I can explain this: Catholic men who are not priests, bishops, deacons, cardinals, or the pope are called laity. They do not cover at all in church....no more than they would wear a hat inside a home (which in our culture is considered rude for men to do.) If you re-read my former post carefully, you will see the "religious", bishops, cardinals, etc., do NOT wear head covering while saying the prayers or during some of the more sacred times during the mass, and THAT is what St. Paul speaks of in I Corinthians if you read it closely.
Hasan, I just want you to know that I respect you for taking a stand for what you believe, even though we may differ in what we believe somewhat. That takes great courage. In your heart I know that you are doing what God has told you to do, and I am sure you are very favored and loved by Him.
Patty
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"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."
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Nur_Ilahi
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Posted: 21 November 2008 at 4:57am |
Hi Patty,
You quote from the Quran - I find it very amazing.
"And we sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus son of Mary, confirming the Torah before him; and we gave to him the Gospel (Injil) which contains guidance and light, and confirming the Torah before it, as a guidance and an admonition for the pious."
(Surah No. 5 Al Ma'Idah:46)
The Koran also exhorts to believe in the Biblical verses given long ago--
"O you who believe, believe in God and ...the book that was revealed from before."
(Surah No. 4 An-Nisa:136)
Patty, there is another verse in the Quran that says -
3:78. There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, "That is from Allah," but it is not from Allah. It is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it!
Simply put, the Messiah was sent as the sacrificial Lamb of God......the redeemer who died as the ultimate sacrifice to cleanse ALL men from their sins, if they repent and believe.
Patty, sacrificing a human being is not like sacrificing a lamb. From my limited knowledge, only satanic cults offer human as a sacrifice. (Like Zionism). It is difficult for me to swallow that The God, Most Merciful and Most Loving request a sacrifice of His beloved servant. It is against or contradictory to His attribute of Most Merciful right? Jesus dying on a cross, so helpless, so pathetic, so pitiful contradicts God�s attribute of Will and Power.
They MUST turn away from their sins to be worthy of Heaven and the beatific vision after their deaths.
That is easier said than done Patty. The Creator of the Whole Universe, I believe loves all human beings so much that He called Himself Most Forgiving. He created us with the strengths and weaknesses. There are ways of redeeming ourselves from our daily sins if we repent with honesty and sincerity.
I must say that I agree with you, Nur. I do know many Mormans, and they are very modest and sincere people......I have never found any other more kind than Mormans.
I do not deny that there are Mormons who are kind. In fact there are more good people than bad people in this whole wide world. That is one example of God�s Mercy.
However, I do not believe that Jesus' true word was suddenly discovered in the United States. Not at all. For one thing many physical symbols of Jesus Christ's ministry are still quite visible in the Middle East. -
Oh How true you are. Same with Islam. There is a stone near Kaaba which had an imprint of Prophet Ibrahim�s footstep.
The Bible is not a lie which was written by some old feeble men on drugs!!!! The monks and priests who labored intensively over the writings were very devoted to their task at hand and did not take any of it lightly.
But sad to say, the Bible was written after a few hundred years of Jesus� birth. Along the way, there were teachings which were lost or being manipulated by the hands of some untrustworthy priests.
To believe one church is the ONLY church who "has it right" is quite honestly, "wrong." Jesus said there are many paths to Him, to God.
We humans are born to find God - that is natural, what Islam calls Fitrah. We know what our destination is - God! However there are many paths to Him. Some very long winded, some so full of hurdles, some direct, but also full of obstacles. He, God the Creator of the Whole Universe, created many paths to Him, but He, due to His Mercy, had created one which is simple and direct to Him. That is our responsibility, to find this direct path to Him.
A female sufi saint, Rabiatul �Adawiyah had said -
You talk about loving God while you disobey Him;
I swear by my life that this is something very strange..
If you were truthful in your love, you would obey Him,
For a lover obeys whom he loves.
So, Patty and Angela, if you see a Muslim who puts on a hijab, look at it in another perspective - it is for the Lover to the Beloved.
Salam (Peace)
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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
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PattyaMainer
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Posted: 21 November 2008 at 6:27am |
Nur_Ilahi wrote:
Hi Patty,
You quote from the Quran - I find it very amazing.
"And we sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus son of Mary, confirming the Torah before him; and we gave to him the Gospel (Injil) which contains guidance and light, and confirming the Torah before it, as a guidance and an admonition for the pious."
(Surah No. 5 Al Ma'Idah:46)
The Koran also exhorts to believe in the Biblical verses given long ago--
"O you who believe, believe in God and ...the book that was revealed from before."
(Surah No. 4 An-Nisa:136)
Patty, there is another verse in the Quran that says -
3:78. There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, "That is from Allah," but it is not from Allah. It is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it!
Simply put, the Messiah was sent as the sacrificial Lamb of God......the redeemer who died as the ultimate sacrifice to cleanse ALL men from their sins, if they repent and believe.
Patty, sacrificing a human being is not like sacrificing a lamb. From my limited knowledge, only satanic cults offer human as a sacrifice. (Like Zionism). It is difficult for me to swallow that The God, Most Merciful and Most Loving request a sacrifice of His beloved servant. It is against or contradictory to His attribute of Most Merciful right? Jesus dying on a cross, so helpless, so pathetic, so pitiful contradicts God�s attribute of Will and Power.
They MUST turn away from their sins to be worthy of Heaven and the beatific vision after their deaths.
That is easier said than done Patty. The Creator of the Whole Universe, I believe loves all human beings so much that He called Himself Most Forgiving. He created us with the strengths and weaknesses. There are ways of redeeming ourselves from our daily sins if we repent with honesty and sincerity.
I must say that I agree with you, Nur. I do know many Mormans, and they are very modest and sincere people......I have never found any other more kind than Mormans.
I do not deny that there are Mormons who are kind. In fact there are more good people than bad people in this whole wide world. That is one example of God�s Mercy.
However, I do not believe that Jesus' true word was suddenly discovered in the United States. Not at all. For one thing many physical symbols of Jesus Christ's ministry are still quite visible in the Middle East. -
Oh How true you are. Same with Islam. There is a stone near Kaaba which had an imprint of Prophet Ibrahim�s footstep.
The Bible is not a lie which was written by some old feeble men on drugs!!!! The monks and priests who labored intensively over the writings were very devoted to their task at hand and did not take any of it lightly.
But sad to say, the Bible was written after a few hundred years of Jesus� birth. Along the way, there were teachings which were lost or being manipulated by the hands of some untrustworthy priests.
To believe one church is the ONLY church who "has it right" is quite honestly, "wrong." Jesus said there are many paths to Him, to God.
We humans are born to find God - that is natural, what Islam calls Fitrah. We know what our destination is - God! However there are many paths to Him. Some very long winded, some so full of hurdles, some direct, but also full of obstacles. He, God the Creator of the Whole Universe, created many paths to Him, but He, due to His Mercy, had created one which is simple and direct to Him. That is our responsibility, to find this direct path to Him.
A female sufi saint, Rabiatul �Adawiyah had said -
You talk about loving God while you disobey Him;
I swear by my life that this is something very strange..
If you were truthful in your love, you would obey Him,
For a lover obeys whom he loves.
So, Patty and Angela, if you see a Muslim who puts on a hijab, look at it in another perspective - it is for the Lover to the Beloved.
Salam (Peace) |
Thank you for such a beautiful post, Nur. And if you see an Irish lady with a white Mantilla covering her head.....it just might be me.....showing my love and respect for my Lord and my God, Jesus, the Christ.
God's Peace Always,
Patty
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"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."
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Mansoor_ali
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Joined: 25 September 2008
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Posted: 21 November 2008 at 1:58pm |
PattyaMainer wrote:
Dear Ali,
I have just said our Lord is ONE Lord. I am a wife, mother and grandmother.....but I am one human being. |
This analogy doesnot prove trinity.Many times it has beed refuted.
Visit 'Trinity Analogies'
PattyaMainer wrote:
Let's be a little realistic for a change here. We could conceivably discuss the Holy Trinity for years, and it won't make one iota of difference in what you believe or what I believe. I understand the Trinity and have FAITH that it is true. You do not. We simply disagree on this doctrine. |
Yes you should be realistic because this concept is not in Bible.No where in Bible Jesus said 'God is 3 in 1' no where he said 'I am God' no where Jesus claims to have dual natures.
Visit 'Is the Trinity logically coherent in light of Biblical teachings?'
PattyaMainer wrote:
You should not tell me what I should do. I DO pray directly to Our Lord and God. I also choose to ask others to please pray for me. We often hear where we have been asked to "pray for the victims and their family of (for instance) earthquakes or floods, etc. That is exactly the same thing. Why not just pray directly to God? Because there is POWER in prayers! Jesus says in the Bible, "where TWO OR MORE are gathered together (in prayer) in my name, there am I in the midst of them." So I hope you are not assuming I am a lazy Catholic and only ask others to pray for me. Of course I pray directly to my beloved God myself.. |
You should pray but donot ask from these dead people to pray for you because they are already dead.
You should ask God in these words.
Surah Al-Fatihah(First Surah of Quran)
ALLAH in the name of The Most Affectionate, the Merciful.
All praise unto Allah, Lord of all the worlds.
The most Affectionate, The Merciful.
Master of the Day of Requital.
We worship You alone, and beg You alone for help.
Guide us in the straight path.
The path of those whom You have favoured. Not of those who have earned Your anger and nor of those who have gone astray.
PattyaMainer wrote:
Spare me the story of a nun who left her faith. I have known them and read their pathetic books many times. It is sad that they choose to make money this way. But, Ali, we all need to realize that the Evil One is very much alive and well on planet earth....and he will try anyway he can to deceive, mislead, and steal the souls of anyone he possibly can. This trash is a perfect example.
God's Peace to You Always,
Patty |
I donot support her.I just quoted her views about worship of Mary in Catholic religion.Thats all.
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Mansoor_ali
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Posted: 21 November 2008 at 2:09pm |
PattyaMainer wrote:
The Messiah's glory was told long before His birth in the Torah and the Zabur. Here are some of those verses:
He will conquer the serpent who is Satan.
(Genesis 3:15)
He will be the means of blessing to all nations.
(Genesis 22:18) (2000 BC)
He will be raised from the dead.
(Psalm 16:10) (1000 BC)
He will sit at the right hand of God.
(Psalm 110:1) (1000 BC)
He will reign as King forever.
(Psalm 89:35-37) (1000 BC)
And in the NT this verse is spoken by the "Messiah Himself.
After he rose from the dead, Jesus said to his discibles:
"...all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me, Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And he said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved the Messiah to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day; And that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached in his name among all nations...."
(Luke 24:44-47) |
Response to PattyaMainer
Visit 'Crucifixion is a lie according to several of the disciples'early writings'
PattyaMainer wrote:
The Koran says that the Torah (Old Testament) was confirmed by Jesus and by the Injil (New Testament):
"And we sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus son of Mary, confirming the Torah before him; and we gave to him the Gospel (Injil) which contains guidance and light, and confirming the Torah before it, as a guidance and an admonition for the pious."
(Surah No. 5 Al Ma'Idah:46)
The Koran also exhorts to believe in the Biblical verses given long ago--
"O you who believe, believe in God and ...the book that was revealed from before."
(Surah No. 4 An-Nisa:136)
Simply put, the Messiah was sent as the sacrificial Lamb of God......the redeemer who died as the ultimate sacrifice to cleanse ALL men from their sins, if they repent and believe. They MUST turn away from their sins to be worthy of Heaven and the beatific vision after their deaths.
I hope this answers your question, Nur. I am not a scholar and am very poor at explaining what I mean to say.
May the God of all Bless us All,
Patty |
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Mansoor_ali
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Posted: 21 November 2008 at 2:16pm |
PattyaMainer wrote:
The Messiah's glory was told long before His birth in the Torah and the Zabur. Here are some of those verses:
He will conquer the serpent who is Satan.
(Genesis 3:15)
He will be the means of blessing to all nations.
(Genesis 22:18) (2000 BC)
He will be raised from the dead.
(Psalm 16:10) (1000 BC)
He will sit at the right hand of God.
(Psalm 110:1) (1000 BC)
He will reign as King forever.
(Psalm 89:35-37) (1000 BC)
And in the NT this verse is spoken by the "Messiah Himself.
After he rose from the dead, Jesus said to his discibles:
"...all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me, Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And he said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved the Messiah to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day; And that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached in his name among all nations...."
(Luke 24:44-47) |
Visit 'Crucifixion is a lie according to several of the Disciples' early writings'
PattyaMainer wrote:
The Koran says that the Torah (Old Testament) was confirmed by Jesus and by the Injil (New Testament):
"And we sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus son of Mary, confirming the Torah before him; and we gave to him the Gospel (Injil) which contains guidance and light, and confirming the Torah before it, as a guidance and an admonition for the pious."
(Surah No. 5 Al Ma'Idah:46)
The Koran also exhorts to believe in the Biblical verses given long ago--
"O you who believe, believe in God and ...the book that was revealed from before."
(Surah No. 4 An-Nisa:136)
Simply put, the Messiah was sent as the sacrificial Lamb of God......the redeemer who died as the ultimate sacrifice to cleanse ALL men from their sins, if they repent and believe. They MUST turn away from their sins to be worthy of Heaven and the beatific vision after their deaths.
I hope this answers your question, Nur. I am not a scholar and am very poor at explaining what I mean to say.
May the God of all Bless us All,
Patty |
Visit 'Does Islam endore the Bible'
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honeto
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Joined: 20 March 2008
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Posted: 22 November 2008 at 6:19pm |
PattyaMainer wrote:
honeto wrote:
Hi,
as the talk shifts from woman's head covering to promotion of peace, I must say that from what we know of the world so far, peace as what it means does not seem to be visible in sight. It may not be meant in the sense we all have been thinking. And thus we are setting on wrong expectations.
Injustices, aggressions, killings and misery continues on for whatever reasons and motives, God knows best and has the account of All.
I believe that peace has to do with the self and achieving peace is a personal goal because at the end it is the individual who will be held accountable for his/her intentions and actions. So, if a person has figured that way out he/she feels at peace within him/herself. Because the whole world in that person's life span is between the day he/she took the first breath and the day he/she took the last one.
I believe in peacefully sharing this planet, but I must say that I don't believe that an athiest, a fire worshipper, a pagan, or one who believe in more than one God, and the one who believes in One God is going to all achieve the same, niether they are same. By saying we all are right none of them will either achieve peace for themselves nor for others, niether in this life nor after this.
And to me it seems the purpose of life to find or correct my course and direction and help others to see it too as a duty before I take my last breath.
Now as far staying with the topic, Patty what about that quote where men are not to cover, yet I see many Catholic men with the Church do cover??
Hasan |
Hi Hasan,
As far as obtaining peace in this life goes, I leave it to God....not many gods, but the God of Abraham who created all people and all on earth, and all in the universe. It is far beyond me to say more.
Regarding your concern about Catholic men who do cover, I can explain this: Catholic men who are not priests, bishops, deacons, cardinals, or the pope are called laity. They do not cover at all in church....no more than they would wear a hat inside a home (which in our culture is considered rude for men to do.) If you re-read my former post carefully, you will see the "religious", bishops, cardinals, etc., do NOT wear head covering while saying the prayers or during some of the more sacred times during the mass, and THAT is what St. Paul speaks of in I Corinthians if you read it closely.
Hasan, I just want you to know that I respect you for taking a stand for what you believe, even though we may differ in what we believe somewhat. That takes great courage. In your heart I know that you are doing what God has told you to do, and I am sure you are very favored and loved by Him.
Patty |
Hi Patty,
thanks for your reply, I was mainly refering to higher priests or even Pope who do cover their heads in some form while leading a mass/prayer service.
It seems we both live for one purpose like many others, to serve our maker and to seek his Forgiveness and Mercy not just for ourselves but for others as well. If we differ is only to our method. I do not believe or think that if we really care for each other and have humanly love for each other to not to show that in our words. Those words are not meant to increase the distance between rather to bring you close to the truth, which there is only one without a substitute.
Can you explain how do you believe Mary to be Mother of God? in other words God has a Mother? or a none God mother gives birth to a God? How come Mother of God is not a God hereself? How that can be, or all these are just words that are not to be taken as they sound.
I want to know your personal belief about it, as well as if you can explain the church teachings about it too.
Hasan
Edited by honeto - 22 November 2008 at 6:27pm
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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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