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Mansoor_ali View Drop Down
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Originally posted by PattyaMainer PattyaMainer wrote:

 
The Messiah's glory was told long before His birth in the Torah and the Zabur.  Here are some of those verses:

He will conquer the serpent who is Satan.
(Genesis 3:15)

He will be the means of blessing to all nations.
(Genesis 22:18)   (2000 BC)
He will be raised from the dead.
(Psalm 16:10)   (1000 BC)
He will sit at the right hand of God.
(Psalm 110:1)   (1000 BC)
He will reign as King forever.
(Psalm 89:35-37)   (1000 BC)

And in the NT this verse is spoken by the "Messiah Himself.
After he rose from the dead, Jesus said to his discibles:

"...all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me, Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And he said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved the Messiah to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day; And that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached in his name among all nations...."
(Luke 24:44-47)

Visit 'Crucifixion is a lie according to several of the Disciples' early writings'
 
Originally posted by PattyaMainer PattyaMainer wrote:

The Koran says that the Torah (Old Testament) was confirmed by Jesus and by the Injil (New Testament):

   "And we sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus son of Mary, confirming the Torah before him; and we gave to him the Gospel (Injil) which contains guidance and light, and confirming the Torah before it, as a guidance and an admonition for the pious."
(Surah No. 5 Al Ma'Idah:46)

   
The Koran also exhorts to believe in the Biblical verses given long ago--
 
"O you who believe, believe in God and ...the book that was revealed from before."
(Surah No. 4 An-Nisa:136)
 
Simply put, the Messiah was sent as the sacrificial Lamb of God......the redeemer who died as the ultimate sacrifice to cleanse ALL men from their sins, if they repent and believe.   They MUST turn away from their sins to be worthy of Heaven and the beatific vision after their deaths. 
 
I hope this answers your question, Nur.  I am not a scholar and am very poor at explaining what I mean to say. 
 
May the God of all Bless us All,
Patty
 
Visit 'Does Islam endore the Bible'
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Originally posted by PattyaMainer PattyaMainer wrote:

 
The Messiah's glory was told long before His birth in the Torah and the Zabur.  Here are some of those verses:

He will conquer the serpent who is Satan.
(Genesis 3:15)

He will be the means of blessing to all nations.
(Genesis 22:18)   (2000 BC)
He will be raised from the dead.
(Psalm 16:10)   (1000 BC)
He will sit at the right hand of God.
(Psalm 110:1)   (1000 BC)
He will reign as King forever.
(Psalm 89:35-37)   (1000 BC)

And in the NT this verse is spoken by the "Messiah Himself.
After he rose from the dead, Jesus said to his discibles:

"...all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me, Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And he said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved the Messiah to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day; And that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached in his name among all nations...."
(Luke 24:44-47)

Response to PattyaMainer
 
Visit 'Crucifixion is a lie according to several of the disciples'early writings'
 
 
Originally posted by PattyaMainer PattyaMainer wrote:

The Koran says that the Torah (Old Testament) was confirmed by Jesus and by the Injil (New Testament):

   "And we sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus son of Mary, confirming the Torah before him; and we gave to him the Gospel (Injil) which contains guidance and light, and confirming the Torah before it, as a guidance and an admonition for the pious."
(Surah No. 5 Al Ma'Idah:46)

   
The Koran also exhorts to believe in the Biblical verses given long ago--
 
"O you who believe, believe in God and ...the book that was revealed from before."
(Surah No. 4 An-Nisa:136)
 
Simply put, the Messiah was sent as the sacrificial Lamb of God......the redeemer who died as the ultimate sacrifice to cleanse ALL men from their sins, if they repent and believe.   They MUST turn away from their sins to be worthy of Heaven and the beatific vision after their deaths. 
 
I hope this answers your question, Nur.  I am not a scholar and am very poor at explaining what I mean to say. 
 
May the God of all Bless us All,
Patty
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Mansoor_ali View Drop Down
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Originally posted by PattyaMainer PattyaMainer wrote:

 
Dear Ali,
 
I have just said our Lord is ONE Lord.  I am a wife, mother and grandmother.....but I am one human being.
 
 
 This analogy doesnot prove trinity.Many times it has beed refuted.
 Visit 'Trinity Analogies'
 http://muslim-responses.com/Trinity_Analogies/Trinity_Analogies_
 
Originally posted by PattyaMainer PattyaMainer wrote:

Let's be a little realistic for a change here.  We could conceivably discuss the Holy Trinity for years, and it won't make one iota of difference in what you believe or what I believe. I understand the Trinity and have FAITH that it is true.  You do not.  We simply disagree on this doctrine.
 
 
 Yes you should be realistic because this concept is not in Bible.No where in Bible Jesus said 'God is 3 in 1' no where he said 'I am God' no where Jesus claims to have dual natures.
 
 Visit 'Is the Trinity logically coherent in light of Biblical teachings?'
 http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/is_the_trinity_logically_coherent_in_light_of_biblical_teachings_
 
Originally posted by PattyaMainer PattyaMainer wrote:

You should not tell me what I should do.  I DO pray directly to Our Lord and God.  I also choose to ask others to please pray for me.  We often hear where we have been asked to "pray for the victims and their family of (for instance) earthquakes or floods, etc.  That is exactly the same thing.  Why not just pray directly to God?  Because there is POWER in prayers!  Jesus says in the Bible, "where TWO OR MORE are gathered together (in prayer) in my name, there am I in the midst of them."  So I hope you are not assuming I am a lazy Catholic and only ask others to pray for me.  Of course I pray directly to my beloved God myself..
 
 
 You should pray but donot ask from these dead people to pray for you because they are already dead.
 
 You should ask God in these words.
 
 
 Surah Al-Fatihah(First Surah of Quran)
 
 ALLAH in the name of The Most Affectionate, the Merciful.

 All praise unto Allah, Lord of all the worlds.

 The most Affectionate, The Merciful.

 Master of the Day of Requital.

 We worship You alone, and beg You alone for help.

 Guide us in the straight path.

 The path of those whom You have favoured. Not of those who have earned Your anger and nor of those who have gone astray.
 
Originally posted by PattyaMainer PattyaMainer wrote:

Spare me the story of a nun who left her faith.  I have known them and read their pathetic books many times.  It is sad that they choose to make money this way.  But, Ali, we all need to realize that the Evil One is very much alive and well on planet earth....and he will try anyway he can to deceive, mislead, and steal the souls of anyone he possibly can.  This trash is a perfect example.
 
God's Peace to You Always,
Patty
 
 I donot support her.I just quoted her views about worship of Mary in Catholic religion.Thats all.
 
 
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Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi Nur_Ilahi wrote:

Hi Patty,

You quote from the Quran - I find it very amazing.

"And we sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus son of Mary, confirming the Torah before him; and we gave to him the Gospel (Injil) which contains guidance and light, and confirming the Torah before it, as a guidance and an admonition for the pious."
(Surah No. 5 Al Ma'Idah:46)

The Koran also exhorts to believe in the Biblical verses given long ago--

"O you who believe, believe in God and ...the book that was revealed from before."
(Surah No. 4 An-Nisa:136)

Patty, there is another verse in the Quran that says -

3:78. There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, "That is from Allah," but it is not from Allah. It is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it!

Simply put, the Messiah was sent as the sacrificial Lamb of God......the redeemer who died as the ultimate sacrifice to cleanse ALL men from their sins, if they repent and believe.

Patty, sacrificing a human being is not like sacrificing a lamb. From my limited knowledge, only satanic cults offer human as a sacrifice. (Like Zionism). It is difficult for me to swallow that The God, Most Merciful and Most Loving request a sacrifice of His beloved servant. It is against or contradictory to His attribute of Most Merciful right? Jesus dying on a cross, so helpless, so pathetic, so pitiful contradicts God�s attribute of Will and Power.

They MUST turn away from their sins to be worthy of Heaven and the beatific vision after their deaths.

That is easier said than done Patty. The Creator of the Whole Universe, I believe loves all human beings so much that He called Himself Most Forgiving. He created us with the strengths and weaknesses. There are ways of redeeming ourselves from our daily sins if we repent with honesty and sincerity.

I must say that I agree with you, Nur. I do know many Mormans, and they are very modest and sincere people......I have never found any other more kind than Mormans.

I do not deny that there are Mormons who are kind. In fact there are more good people than bad people in this whole wide world. That is one example of God�s Mercy.

However, I do not believe that Jesus' true word was suddenly discovered in the United States. Not at all. For one thing many physical symbols of Jesus Christ's ministry are still quite visible in the Middle East. -

Oh How true you are. Same with Islam. There is a stone near Kaaba which had an imprint of Prophet Ibrahim�s footstep. 

The Bible is not a lie which was written by some old feeble men on drugs!!!! The monks and priests who labored intensively over the writings were very devoted to their task at hand and did not take any of it lightly.

But sad to say, the Bible was written after a few hundred years of Jesus� birth. Along the way, there were teachings which were lost or being manipulated by the hands of some untrustworthy priests.

To believe one church is the ONLY church who "has it right" is quite honestly, "wrong." Jesus said there are many paths to Him, to God.

We humans are born to find God - that is natural, what Islam calls Fitrah. We know what our destination is - God! However there are many paths to Him. Some very long winded, some so full of hurdles, some direct, but also full of obstacles. He, God the Creator of the Whole Universe, created many paths to Him, but He, due to His Mercy, had created one which is simple and direct to Him. That is our responsibility, to find this direct path to Him.

A female sufi saint, Rabiatul �Adawiyah had said -

You talk about loving God while you disobey Him;
I swear by my life that this is something very strange..
If you were truthful in your love, you would obey Him,
For a lover obeys whom he loves.

So, Patty and Angela, if you see a Muslim who puts on a hijab, look at it in another perspective - it is for the Lover to the Beloved.

Salam (Peace)

 
Thank you for such a beautiful post, Nur.  And if you see an Irish lady with a white Mantilla covering her head.....it just might be me.....showing my love and respect for my Lord and my God, Jesus, the Christ. 
 
God's Peace Always,
Patty
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."
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Hi Patty,

You quote from the Quran - I find it very amazing.

"And we sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus son of Mary, confirming the Torah before him; and we gave to him the Gospel (Injil) which contains guidance and light, and confirming the Torah before it, as a guidance and an admonition for the pious."
(Surah No. 5 Al Ma'Idah:46)

The Koran also exhorts to believe in the Biblical verses given long ago--

"O you who believe, believe in God and ...the book that was revealed from before."
(Surah No. 4 An-Nisa:136)

Patty, there is another verse in the Quran that says -

3:78. There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, "That is from Allah," but it is not from Allah. It is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it!

Simply put, the Messiah was sent as the sacrificial Lamb of God......the redeemer who died as the ultimate sacrifice to cleanse ALL men from their sins, if they repent and believe.

Patty, sacrificing a human being is not like sacrificing a lamb. From my limited knowledge, only satanic cults offer human as a sacrifice. (Like Zionism). It is difficult for me to swallow that The God, Most Merciful and Most Loving request a sacrifice of His beloved servant. It is against or contradictory to His attribute of Most Merciful right? Jesus dying on a cross, so helpless, so pathetic, so pitiful contradicts God�s attribute of Will and Power.

They MUST turn away from their sins to be worthy of Heaven and the beatific vision after their deaths.

That is easier said than done Patty. The Creator of the Whole Universe, I believe loves all human beings so much that He called Himself Most Forgiving. He created us with the strengths and weaknesses. There are ways of redeeming ourselves from our daily sins if we repent with honesty and sincerity.

I must say that I agree with you, Nur. I do know many Mormans, and they are very modest and sincere people......I have never found any other more kind than Mormans.

I do not deny that there are Mormons who are kind. In fact there are more good people than bad people in this whole wide world. That is one example of God�s Mercy.

However, I do not believe that Jesus' true word was suddenly discovered in the United States. Not at all. For one thing many physical symbols of Jesus Christ's ministry are still quite visible in the Middle East. -

Oh How true you are. Same with Islam. There is a stone near Kaaba which had an imprint of Prophet Ibrahim�s footstep. 

The Bible is not a lie which was written by some old feeble men on drugs!!!! The monks and priests who labored intensively over the writings were very devoted to their task at hand and did not take any of it lightly.

But sad to say, the Bible was written after a few hundred years of Jesus� birth. Along the way, there were teachings which were lost or being manipulated by the hands of some untrustworthy priests.

To believe one church is the ONLY church who "has it right" is quite honestly, "wrong." Jesus said there are many paths to Him, to God.

We humans are born to find God - that is natural, what Islam calls Fitrah. We know what our destination is - God! However there are many paths to Him. Some very long winded, some so full of hurdles, some direct, but also full of obstacles. He, God the Creator of the Whole Universe, created many paths to Him, but He, due to His Mercy, had created one which is simple and direct to Him. That is our responsibility, to find this direct path to Him.

A female sufi saint, Rabiatul �Adawiyah had said -

You talk about loving God while you disobey Him;
I swear by my life that this is something very strange..
If you were truthful in your love, you would obey Him,
For a lover obeys whom he loves.

So, Patty and Angela, if you see a Muslim who puts on a hijab, look at it in another perspective - it is for the Lover to the Beloved.

Salam (Peace)
Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
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Originally posted by honeto honeto wrote:

Hi,
as the talk shifts from woman's head covering to promotion of peace, I must say that from what we know of the world so far, peace as what it means does not seem to be visible in sight. It may not be meant in the sense we all have been thinking.  And thus we are setting on wrong expectations.
Injustices, aggressions, killings and misery continues on for whatever reasons and motives, God knows best and has the account of All.
 
I believe that peace has to do with the self and achieving peace is a personal goal because at the end it is the individual who will be held accountable for his/her intentions and actions. So, if a person has figured that way out he/she feels at peace within him/herself. Because the whole world in that person's life span is between the day he/she took the first breath and the day he/she took the last one.
I believe in peacefully sharing this planet, but I must say that I don't believe that an athiest, a fire worshipper, a pagan, or one who believe in more than one God, and the one who believes in One God is going to all achieve the same, niether they are same. By saying we all are right none of them will either achieve peace for themselves nor for others, niether in this life nor after this.
And to me it seems the purpose of life to find or correct my course and direction and help others to see it too as a duty before I take my last breath.
 
Now as far staying with the topic, Patty what about that quote where men are not to cover, yet I see many Catholic men with the Church do cover??
Hasan
 
Hi Hasan,
 
As far as obtaining peace in this life goes, I leave it to God....not many gods, but the God of Abraham who created all people and all on earth, and all in the universe.  It is far beyond me to say more.
 
Regarding your concern about Catholic men who do cover, I can explain this:  Catholic men who are not priests, bishops, deacons, cardinals, or the pope are called laity.  They do not cover at all in church....no more than they would wear a hat inside a home (which in our culture is considered rude for men to do.)  If you re-read my former post carefully, you will see the "religious", bishops, cardinals, etc., do NOT wear head covering while saying the prayers or during some of the more sacred times during the mass, and THAT is what St. Paul speaks of in I Corinthians if you read it closely.
 
Hasan, I just want you to know that I respect you for taking a stand for what you believe, even though we may differ in what we believe somewhat.  That takes great courage.  In your heart I know that you are doing what God has told you to do, and I am sure you are very favored and loved by Him.
 
Patty
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."
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Hi,
as the talk shifts from woman's head covering to promotion of peace, I must say that from what we know of the world so far, peace as what it means does not seem to be visible in sight. It may not be meant in the sense we all have been thinking.  And thus we are setting on wrong expectations.
Injustices, aggressions, killings and misery continues on for whatever reasons and motives, God knows best and has the account of All.
 
I believe that peace has to do with the self and achieving peace is a personal goal because at the end it is the individual who will be held accountable for his/her intentions and actions. So, if a person has figured that way out he/she feels at peace within him/herself. Because the whole world in that person's life span is between the day he/she took the first breath and the day he/she took the last one.
I believe in peacefully sharing this planet, but I must say that I don't believe that an athiest, a fire worshipper, a pagan, or one who believe in more than one God, and the one who believes in One God is going to all achieve the same, niether they are same. By saying we all are right none of them will either achieve peace for themselves nor for others, niether in this life nor after this.
And to me it seems the purpose of life to find or correct my course and direction and help others to see it too as a duty before I take my last breath.
 
Now as far staying with the topic, Patty what about that quote where men are not to cover, yet I see many Catholic men with the Church do cover??
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 20 November 2008 at 4:13pm
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi Nur_Ilahi wrote:

Dear Nur, my Church believes all other Christians have fallen away from the truth and that we are the only correct Church. So in a way, the other sects of Christianity can be non-Universal -

I think that is a bit too self-righteous right?

Angela, first and for most, whether we are Sunnis, Sufis, Salafis, Shias or Ismailis, the basic concept of the first pillar of Islam of LAILA HAILALLAH MUHAMMADURASULULLAH - That there is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is His Messenger - never change, never falters. That is the basic Aqidah or Faith. That is the gateway to Islam. Shariah or laws may change under extreme cases depending on the situation of a person. For example when one cannot stand due to illness, one can pray while sitting down. When one is on a long journey during fasting month, he or she can leave the fasting but have to repay after the fasting month. Allah�s law can fit anytime or anyplace on earth.  

My Church believes this was part of the reason that the other Churches fell from the true ways and why we have our Book of Mormon. It was preserved by the Hand of God and brought forth by our Prophet Joseph Smith.

I find it skeptical that all the prophets came from near or around the centre of the Earth that is in the Middle East, yet suddenly one emerged in another corner of the earth. Or that God could be very cruel (astaghfirullah - I seek forgiveness from Allah) leaving the original descendents of Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad without a guide.

We refer to that for the final say on our laws because its considered more pure.

That can be debated on sometime.

Salam

 

 
I must say that I agree with you, Nur.  I do know many Mormans, and they are very modest and sincere people......I have never found any other more kind than Mormans.  However, I do not believe that Jesus' true word was suddenly discovered in the United States.  Not at all.  For one thing many physical symbols of Jesus Christ's ministry are still quite visible in the Middle East.  The Bible is not a lie which was written by some old feeble men on drugs!!!!  The monks and priests who labored intensively over the writings were very devoted to their task at  hand and did not take any of it lightly. To believe one church is the ONLY church who "has it right" is quite honestly, "wrong."  Jesus said there are many paths to Him, to God.  Here is a little blurb from an Orthodox priest who was speaking in Rome about people around the world going to Heaven:
 

Orthodox bishop says nothing can destroy God's desire to forgive

ROME (CNS) -- God loves every human being, and there is nothing anyone can do that would destroy God's merciful desire to forgive, said Russian Orthodox Bishop Hilarion of Vienna and Austria. Speaking April 4 at the World Apostolic Congress on Mercy in Rome, Bishop Hilarion explored the teaching on divine mercy contained in the writings of the seventh-century hermit, St. Isaac the Syrian. The saint, he said, taught that "divine loves lies at the foundation of the universe, it governs the world, and it will lead the world to that glorious outcome when the latter will be entirely 'consumed' by the godhead." Bishop Hilarion said St. Isaac was opposed to the teaching, spread during his lifetime, that held that the majority of people would be punished in hell and only a few would make it to heaven. The saint was "convinced that, quite the contrary, the majority of people will find themselves in the kingdom of heaven and that only a few sinners will go to Gehenna, and even then only for the period of time which is necessary for their repentance and remission of sins," the bishop said. "Every created being is precious in God's eyes," Bishop Hilarion said. "If we turn away from God, he does not turn away from us."

Here is an article which I believe wholeheartedly states my faith's position on thos of Christian, Muslim, and Jewish faiths.  I hope it will inspire you and give you hope.  It has lifted my spirits emmensely.  I am also offering the link for more information on the Catholic Church's opinion on the great love of God for all of us......ALL, not just one church. 

Coming Together
as Brothers and Sisters
in the Faith of Abraham

by Friar Jack Wintz, O.F.M.

Q U I C K S C A N

A Change of Attitude Toward Other Religions
A Truer Expression of Islam
Building a More Peaceful World

Is it possible to take a break from all the death and interreligious discord we experience in our world today, especially in Iraq, the Middle East and similar places of conflict? Yes, I believe it is possible�and much needed! Such a break recently took place at the Vatican on January 17, in the form of a "Concert for Reconciliation." The concert, which was a real sign of hope, brought together Christians, Muslims and Jews in an atmosphere of peace, harmony and mutual respect, with performers and spectators from the three faiths.

Gilbert Levine conducted the Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra and a massive chorus with participants from Pittsburgh; London; Ankara, Turkey; and Krakow, Poland. The program started off with the world premiere of "Abraham," a motet commissioned for the occasion. Seated on either side of Pope John Paul II were a prominent rabbi and an imam, both of Rome. Also present from various foreign nations were other leaders and representatives of the three faiths.

At the end of the concert, John Paul II urged that all of us who trace our faith back to Abraham "must find within ourselves the courage for peace....Jews, Christians and Muslims," the pope added, "cannot accept that the earth be afflicted by hatred, [or] that humanity would remain involved in wars without end....Today one feels a pressing need for a sincere reconciliation among believers in one God. " The pope also said to those present: "The hope we express is that people will be purified of the hatred and evil that continually threaten peace and that they will learn to reach out to each other with hands that know no violence but are ready to offer aid and comfort to those in need."

http://www.americancatholic.org/e-News/FriarJack/fj012804.asp

 
May we all find peace through our religions,
Patty


Edited by PattyaMainer - 19 November 2008 at 10:56am
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."
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