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Love and Religion conflicts=help!
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thomasd View Drop Down
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Points: 43 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thomasd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2008 at 8:36pm
Originally posted by Imani Imani wrote:

thomas i think i can be of help to you.
what exactly are the questions you have on your mind.
Number your questions so that i can answer them one after the other.



1. please offer your best reasoned rebuttal of the doctrine of original sin.
2. please offer a reasoned explanation for the difference in treatment of men and women in the rules related to intermarriage, it would be preferable if this was more in depth than just a quote from the Qur'an, and included explanation of the traditions and cultural norms associated with it.
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Points: 92 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Imani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2008 at 11:31am
thomas i think i can be of help to you.
what exactly are the questions you have on your mind.
Number your questions so that i can answer them one after the other.
 
 
 
"But those who believe and do righteous deeds are the best of all creatures."(surah98:7)
peace for all peace for the nation. To Allah indeed we are to return. SALAM
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Originally posted by seekshidayath seekshidayath wrote:

Its okay, thomas. Don't get frustrated. Just leave my post. InshaAllah, a brother, who has good knowledge, {BMZ} of both Islam and christianity, shall answer you, InshaAllah


my frustration was not with your post, the answers you gave were very informative, it is with the whole issue, and things that seem to me to be clear inconsistencies or non-reasons.

Originally posted by BMZ BMZ wrote:

1. All the doctrines are post-Jesus thingies. Jesus did not himself teach any of those doctrines. You know that and we know that too.
The doctrine that all humans are inherently sinful was taught by the Jews, and Jesus is the one who first taught that it is not only our actions that are sins, but our thoughts as well. Our very human nature.

Originally posted by BMZ BMZ wrote:

2. Even with the doctrine of sin, Christianity still does not make any sense at all, because there is nothing from Jesus on it.

if we are inherently flawed beings then it makes perfect sense that some sacrifice must be made in atonement for that flawed nature. This was part of Hebrew tradition dating back to before there were Hebrews. Even Abraham's son Isaac was very nearly offered as a sacrifice in prophecy of Jesus's (a descendant of Abraham) willing sacrifice for us.
 
Originally posted by BMZ BMZ wrote:

3. Christianity, itself, directly contradicts and violates the fundamental belief of the ancient Hebrews and the Jews, including Jesus that there is only One LORD Almighty God. Jesus was absolutely clear about the Shema as he himself declared it three times daily, as an obedient-to-God Jew.
of course he was an obedient Jew, he came not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. but like original sin, the doctrine of the triune God was present in the Jewish Zohar long before Christianity came along. It's *not* an import from pagan Greco-Roman tradition as a couple people have claimed.

Originally posted by BMZ BMZ wrote:

Neither the Hebrews nor the Jews believed that God had a 'son' and the Jews still do not believe that Jesus is the son of God.

a pretty significant number of them did, or we wouldn't have Christianity today. The Jewish leaders who turned the people against Jesus did so largely for political reasons, and to this day the single most influential person in the formalization of Christian doctrine after Jesus's death was an educated member of the Jewish aristrocracy. The Judaism of today is *not* the Judaism of 2000 years ago.
 
Originally posted by BMZ<span style=font-style: italic;> BMZ wrote:

The Bible teaches how to lament and self-loathe or makes one feel low in self-esteem. That is what I have concluded after studying it long.

then you have been grievously misled in your studies. The Bible teaches that it doesn't matter what crime you have committed or how completely you have sinned against God, if you turn back to him and ask forgiveness he will grant it to you, because he loves you. To be loved by the most powerful being in the universe and to be made in his image is a special thing indeed.
 
Originally posted by BMZ BMZ wrote:

Works and deeds are also very important and I am sure you know well that James had said,"faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."

equally, Paul said that we are saved not by works, but through God's grace that is extended to those who have faith.


Edited by thomasd - 23 November 2008 at 10:43pm
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Originally posted by thomasd thomasd wrote:

there's one deep seated theological issue I have with Islam, outside of anything else (my distaste for legalism, concerns of historical authenticity, etc).
 
The doctrine of original sin is deeply rooted in my worldview, and its truth is clearly evident every time I see the news, or have a conversation with someone.
 
Without it, Christianity makes very little sense, with it though, it makes perfect sense, and while it does so I can not accept a claim to prophethood by someone who directly contradicts the fundamental Christian belief that Jesus is the son of God.
 
Until someone can make a pretty convincing argument against that doctrine I don't see my belief in a changing.
 
Hello, thomasd
 
I have split up your comment in short paras for easy reading. My apologies for that. I can write pages on the issues you have but because of time constraint, I have a few comments:
 
1. All the doctrines are post-Jesus thingies. Jesus did not himself teach any of those doctrines. You know that and we know that too.
 
2. Even with the doctrine of sin, Christianity still does not make any sense at all, because there is nothing from Jesus on it.
 
3. Christianity, itself, directly contradicts and violates the fundamental belief of the ancient Hebrews and the Jews, including Jesus that there is only One LORD Almighty God. Jesus was absolutely clear about the Shema as he himself declared it three times daily, as an obedient-to-God Jew.
 
Neither the Hebrews nor the Jews believed that God had a 'son' and the Jews still do not believe that Jesus is the son of God.
 
4. Pardon me but I have to say this and my apologies in advance, if it hurts:
 
The Bible teaches how to lament and self-loathe or makes one feel low in self-esteem. That is what I have concluded after studying it long. 
 
Islam does away with all that. It removes the corroded link of Christianity in the chain, linking back mankind to the True LORD Almighty Allah (God in English), the God of Adam, the God of Noah, the God of Abraham and the God of Moses and Jesus.
 
The Law will remain there and Jesus also confirmed that not an iota was to be changed. We have to live with the Law of God and it is easy, since we live easily with the laws made by men also. Islam makes me feel good. Smile
 
Works and deeds are also very important and I am sure you know well that James had said,"faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."
 
Islam makes it clear that no one shall carry any one's burdens and neither will a soul be subjected to carry another's burdens.
 
Hope this helped.
 
Cheers
BMZ 
 
 
 
 
 

 


Edited by BMZ - 23 November 2008 at 8:08pm
Shasta's Aunt: "Well, there's the difference you see. The Bible was written by man about God, The Quran was revealed to man by God."
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Originally posted by seekshidayath seekshidayath wrote:

Its okay, thomas. Don't get frustrated. Just leave my post. InshaAllah, a brother, who has good knowledge, {BMZ} of both Islam and christianity, shall answer you, InshaAllah
 
Why do you call me good? Only God is good, seekshidayath! LOL Just kidding. I feel humbled.
 
I am very busy at some sites which are extremely hostile to Islam, Qur'aan, Prophet and Muslims. I am good with the good, bad with the bad and ugly with the uglies. LOL
 
My apologies for writing less here.
 
Salaams
BMZ
 
 
Shasta's Aunt: "Well, there's the difference you see. The Bible was written by man about God, The Quran was revealed to man by God."
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Its okay, thomas. Don't get frustrated. Just leave my post. InshaAllah, a brother, who has good knowledge, {BMZ} of both Islam and christianity, shall answer you, InshaAllah
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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Originally posted by seekshidayath seekshidayath wrote:

Am very happy to see you at IC. Hope you shall be active

when I remember/have an issue to discuss

Originally posted by seekshidayath seekshidayath wrote:

"O people of the Scripture!: Why do you disbelieve in the verses [about Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him)] of Allaah, while you (yourselves) bear witness (to their truth)". (Aala Imraan, 3:70)

there's one deep seated theological issue I have with Islam, outside of anything else (my distaste for legalism, concerns of historical authenticity, etc). The doctrine of original sin is deeply rooted in my worldview, and its truth is clearly evident every time I see the news, or have a conversation with someone. Without it, Christianity makes very little sense, with it though, it makes perfect sense, and while it does so I can not accept a claim to prophethood by someone who directly contradicts the fundamental Christian belief that Jesus is the son of God. Until someone can make a pretty convincing argument against that doctrine I don't see my belief in a changing.

Quote Morever, Quran uses ahle-kitaab as category of kuffaar not as different state of faith.

thats what I thought. And it's based on that belief that I found a refusal to allow intermarriage inexplicable, especially since the it is allowed when the gender-roles are reversed.
 
Quote Anyways, kindly expand your questions a bit. I just posted, whatever i understood out of them. I wish our other members too, to add up there knowledge here.

I suppose they weren't questions such much as observations that added up to the frustration I feel over this issue.
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Hello br, Thomas,
 
Glad to see you. Just yesterday, i was thinking of you both. Happened to share this thread at an other section. So remembered you. Am very happy to see you at IC. Hope you shall be active.
 
Also, happy to know that you had been into discussions of Islam and Christianity and were gifted with Qur'an. May Allah swt bless you with hidayah soon
 
Coming to the discussion of the questions you posted, i wish you to kindly elaborate them.
 
Out of what i understood is, you said , Qur'an at several places acknowledged "people of book" as believers in God. YES, truly they are believers of God.
 
There is an ayah in Qur'an, "

"O People of the Book! Come to common terms as between us and you: that we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with Him; that we do not erect, from among ourselves, lords and patrons other than Allah." Quran 3:64

We have many things in common. We believe in One God, we believe in destiny, angels, we have prophets in common, like Idris {Enoch}, Noah, Musa, Ibrahim [May peace be upon them all}.
 
According to Qur'an people of book consist of believers and disbelievers.
 
Read this ;

"O people of the Scripture!: Why do you disbelieve in the verses [about Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him)] of Allaah, while you (yourselves) bear witness (to their truth)". (Aala Imraan, 3:70)

 
And this is also the will of God that Mohammad {Pbuh} be accepted as a Prophet.
 
"Say: O people of the Scripture! Why do you stop those who believe from the path of Allah, seeking to make it crooked, while you (yourselves) are witnesses? And Allah is not unaware of what you do". ( 3:99)
 
The arabic word used for "disbelievers" is kafir.
 
Here are few ayahs, which help us determine that people of scriptures are disbelievers
 
Those who deny Prophethood of Prophet Mohammed PBUH are indeed kaafirs.
 
Read this..
5:72 (Picktall) They surely disbelieve who say : Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said : O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden Paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evildoers there will be no helpers.
 
Thre Arabic word used for disbelieve is "kafara". If we go to the arabic version of Qur'an or transliteration , we shall find this word, in the ayah referred
 
Read this also
98:6 Lo! those who disbelieve, among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings. (Picktall)
 
Here also the word used for disbelieve is kafara.
 
Specifically from the above ayah you can see that. Ahle kitaab and Mushrikeen as categorised as two groups. But their act of disbelieving Prophet(Bayyinah) is considered kufr.
 
Morever, Quran uses ahle-kitaab as category of kuffaar not as different state of faith.
 
The very first migrations were at Abyssinia. Prophet {pbuh} advised a group of muslims to migrate there andit was a christian king, who gave them the shelter.
 
Banu Nadir was a tribe of Jews, who were active against Prophet Muhammad {Pbuh}, but were expelled, This tribe later joined against Prophet [Pbuh} again, during the battle of Khyber, which was a battle against Jews.
 
Anyways, kindly expand your questions a bit. I just posted, whatever i understood out of them. I wish our other members too, to add up there knowledge here.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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