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Love and Religion conflicts=help!
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thomasd View Drop Down
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Points: 43 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thomasd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2008 at 8:36pm
Originally posted by Imani Imani wrote:

thomas i think i can be of help to you.
what exactly are the questions you have on your mind.
Number your questions so that i can answer them one after the other.



1. please offer your best reasoned rebuttal of the doctrine of original sin.
2. please offer a reasoned explanation for the difference in treatment of men and women in the rules related to intermarriage, it would be preferable if this was more in depth than just a quote from the Qur'an, and included explanation of the traditions and cultural norms associated with it.
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Imani View Drop Down
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Points: 92 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Imani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 November 2008 at 2:04am
Salam thomas.
The doctrine of original sin.
Yes, it is true that there is nothing like original sin in Islam.
Allah has made provisions and said in the Holy Qur'an that, nobody is going to carry the sins of another person. Everybody is going to be judged according to his deeds and actions in this world.
Adam and Eve were not angles, they were humans like you and me. the fact that Adam was created by ALLAH from clay[sand] and Eve from the ribs of Adam does not change this fact.
Thier way of creation by ALLAH was to show one of the unbelievable and miraculous ways of ALLAH just like how Jesus was created without a fahter.
In arabic words i would say KUMFA YAKUN meaning BE AND IT SHALL BE. This is how God is unique. HE only says be and it shall surely be in HIS own way that man can not understand.
So the fact that Adam and Eve were those who brought sin to the world does not automatically make  all human race sinful.
 
Once a man came to Jesus and asked that, how can one gain salvation. Can you recollect in the bible what Jesus told the man for me?
 
 
 
And to your second question, please can you explain it futher to me the english is not quite clear for me to understand.
The commas are too much, can you put a full stop somewhere and start with another sentence in this question?
 


Edited by Imani - 26 November 2008 at 2:17am
"But those who believe and do righteous deeds are the best of all creatures."(surah98:7)
peace for all peace for the nation. To Allah indeed we are to return. SALAM
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Chrysalis View Drop Down
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Points: 2033 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chrysalis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 November 2008 at 12:32pm

Its unreasonable for all the decendants of Adam to share in what was HIS original sin. I did not sin. . . why should I be held responsible for something that Adam and Eve conciousley did?

This concept goes against the concept of a just and fair God. Forget about Original Sin - the entire Biblical concept surrounding it doesnt make sense to me, and is offensive, for example the Biblical assertion that EVE was the one who tempted Adam - and how 'God' then cursed her with childbirth and labour pains and made her forever 'submissive' to man as her master. So right now, my menstrual cramps are inadvertently Eves fault?
 
Nauzubillah.
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Points: 1397 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote believer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 November 2008 at 9:51am
thomasd - The deep seated theological issue I have with Islam is that it denies the historical fact that Jesus was crucified!
 
I have studied the Quran for 4 years and I have come to a different interpretation of what the Quran is saying.  It is has not come of my own power but through the Holy Spirit.
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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Imani View Drop Down
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Points: 92 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Imani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 November 2008 at 11:03am
So right now, my menstral cramps are inadvertently Eves fault?
lol! this is ridiculous sis
Ask the question and ask it again and again.....
this is raelly unbelievable becaz the doctrine the christians have is really a headache.
"But those who believe and do righteous deeds are the best of all creatures."(surah98:7)
peace for all peace for the nation. To Allah indeed we are to return. SALAM
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Hayfa View Drop Down
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Points: 2368 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hayfa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 November 2008 at 6:25pm
So right now, my menstral cramps are inadvertently Eves fault?
 
And really, what if you are like me and don't have cramps?? lol 
 

Hi ThomasD,

 

Welcome back. I am sure your travels have been an eye-opener. When I first started to learn about Islam, and lived among Muslims I had a lot of culture shock!

 

Intermarriage: I can see why this can be strange.. why one way and not the other.

 

Islam values structure. Coming from a society where structure is often lacking and is often fluid it can be hard to relate to such a strong structure. Take for instance, elders. Elders are to obeyed. This is still true in many societies. You are not to argue or anger your parents. They are of a �higher� place in the functional society then their children and grandchildren. So for instance, in many families whereas the son may make the money, the mom, rules the house. To get angry or be disobedient to the mother is really bad in Islam. Being kind to one�s parents is a must.

 

So in the household the husband makes the final decision. The main reason is that he often is the breadwinner and is expected to do so. Funny, in Islam, men have it tough. We can say they have it easy, but I as a Muslim woman is NOT required to work. Not even in the home if I do not agree. Most women of course �work� in come capacity. But I am not required to. Men must work to provide for all females in their families. Take for instance my good friend, he works and supports, not only his wife and children, his brother�s wife and kids (he does not make much money), his mother, his sister, pay for family things like weddings� not sure who has it easier.. lol

 

So as the one responsible he is considered head of the family in that sense. Only a fool never consults or listens but in the end the decision is his. And as the father, it is his responsibility to educate the child in Islam. If he is nonMuslim he will have a difficult time doing so.

 

Good to see you back!

 

Hayfa



Edited by Hayfa - 28 November 2008 at 6:26pm
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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seekshidayath View Drop Down
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Points: 3357 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote seekshidayath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 December 2008 at 6:22pm
 
Thomas, i do  not possess much knowledge {deeper} of the questions you posed. I wished Br. BMZ, look after it. Perhaps he's very busy. Am sure, he shall answer you, once when he's free. Hope sis Hyafa's post would also help you to understand. I was reading of "The Doctrine of Atonement and Original Sin", so thought to share it with you.

Doctrine of Atonement accepted by the church three to four centuries after Jesus left the earth. It contradicts the Bible itself as the following passage show : "{Deut 24 :16} : "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers : every man shall be put to death for his own sin. "

{Jeremiah 31 : 30} : "But everyone shall die for his own iniquity"

{Ezekiel 18:20} : " The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son : the righteousness of the righteous  shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him". So Adam and Eve were responsible for their own sin, which had also been forgiven by Allah according to the Islamic version

Read what Jesus himself said in Mathew 7: 1 and 2

"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgement ye judge, ye shall be judged : and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again".

I Corinthinians 3 : 8

"Now he that planeth and he that watereth are one, and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour". But we believe in Original Sin !

There is still an another verse that shall prove that children are born without sin.

Mathew - 19:14
"But Jesus said, Suffer little children and forbid them not to come unto me : for of such is the kingdom of heaven".

So everybody is born without sin and all children belong to the kingdom of heaven.  Hope this may help you to understand
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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thomasd View Drop Down
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Points: 43 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thomasd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 December 2008 at 10:03pm
Originally posted by believer believer wrote:

thomasd - The deep seated theological issue I have with Islam is that it denies the historical fact that Jesus was crucified!

Jesus is absolutely central to Christianity, but if you believe that you can be saved through works, then the idea that Jesus came so we can all be saved is certainly ridiculous. But since I do not believe we can be saved through works, only through our faith, Jesus is essential.



Hayfa: your points are well raised :) growing up in a Christian (when I say Christian, I of course mean that we had an active faith, and not the stereotype of an American "christian" who goes to church only on Christmas + Easter, and says grace for dinner when they remember to)  household, we had a very structured family as well, however in our family, mom and dad were equals in everything, never one having authority over the other, and learning about God (bible-reading, prayer, often singing) was, and is, a family event. after EVERY dinner. Never the responsibility of a single parent.



seekshidayath: thank you once again for your well thought out response :) with the exception of the verses from Corinthians, and Matthew, the verses you quoted were from the old testament. At the time the Jews were living under the old covenant with God. And yes, it says that no man should pay the price for another's sin. But that covenant still required that a guilt offering be made as atonement for one's sin, and that offering was a completely innocent life, that of a lamb, or (if I remember correctly), a dove. We believe that Jesus was the completely innocent life who paid the guilt offering for anyone who accepts it as his gift.

Children when they are born have committed no act of sin, yet they still carry the Sinful human nature with which we all carry. Though most Christians believe children who die before they become Christian's will be held innocent if they have not been given the chance to either accept or deny a relationship with God, or even understand what that entails, this is a subject which is still debated. my point is that WE CAN NOT achieve the necessary standard of perfection to be worthy of spending an eternity with him. Take the chance to really examine yourself, your thoughts, your actions. The truth of what I'm saying should be obvious right there. It is only through tremendous grace that any one of us can be saved.
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