Shia And Sunni

dear br Talib_Asadullah

please ignore this person sign*reader cuz i hav noticed that he is an anti shia...even though i can answer every single question of his...but i dont wanna waste time...

your question has basically 2 dimentions....
one is looking at taqayyah and the second at the khilafat of Imam Ali (a.s)...

First we will look into taqayya..
Uptill now...ure knowledge says that it was an "invention" much later after the prophet (s.a.w)...this is wrong...
For a fact, i would just like to let u know that for the lovers of Ahle Bayt (a.s), the quran is hujjat on us and no body can contradict whats written in the quran...and the quran u believe and the quran we believe is da same...whoever says otherwise is a lier....

taqayya as u know can only be donw when there is fear of loss of life respect etc...and its da last option...here is wat quran says:

"Anyone who after accepting faith in Allah utters unbelief except under compulsion his heart remaining firm in faith but such as open their breast to unbelief on them is Wrath from Allah and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty"
Surah An-Nahal, verse 106 transliteration by Abdullah Yusuf Ali

ihope this clarifies to u that the roots of taqayya are there in quran as well...but can only be used in worst conditions...

since there is no fear of any shia's life or respect etc, please dont accuse us here of doing taqayyah...

secondly the khilafat..
what difference does it make if the khilafat of Imam Ali (a.s) is 1st or the 4th??

well it does make a difference when there are things done by the early rashidite caliph which were against the rulings of the Prophet (s.a.w)....and thus going against the sunnah....and example is "bringing back marwan bin hakam by Uthman and awarding him the position of governer of madina when everybody knows that his family was exiled by the Prophet (s.a.w)"....do u think a person who is exiled by the prophet (s.a.w) shud be given a respectable postion in society??

inshallah if u want to discuss this topic in detail we can do so..

about the story of the door u heard....it si better if u confirm such stuff from a very famous source....just a mere word by a layman cannot be considered hujjah.....u shud not judge a religion by its people...u shud better judge us by our scholars...

Edited by asda - 14 January 2009 at 12:19pm

asda wrote: dear br Talib_Asadullah please ignore this person sign*reader cuz i hav noticed that he is an anti shia...even though i can answer every single question of his...but i dont wanna waste time... your question has basically 2 dimentions.... one is looking at taqayyah and the second at the khilafat of Imam Ali (a.s)... First we will look into taqayya.. Uptill now...ure knowledge says that it was an "invention" much later after the prophet (s.a.w)...this is wrong... For a fact, i would just like to let u know that for the lovers of Ahle Bayt (a.s), the quran is hujjat on us and no body can contradict whats written in the quran...and the quran u believe and the quran we believe is da same...whoever says otherwise is a lier.... taqayya as u know can only be donw when there is fear of loss of life respect etc...and its da last option...here is wat quran says: "Anyone who after accepting faith in Allah utters unbelief except under compulsion his heart remaining firm in faith but such as open their breast to unbelief on them is Wrath from Allah and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty" Surah An-Nahal, verse 106 transliteration by Abdullah Yusuf Ali ihope this clarifies to u that the roots of taqayya are there in quran as well...but can only be used in worst conditions... since there is no fear of any shia's life or respect etc, please dont accuse us here of doing taqayyah... secondly the khilafat.. what difference does it make if the khilafat of Imam Ali (a.s) is 1st or the 4th?? well it does make a difference when there are things done by the early rashidite caliph which were against the rulings of the Prophet (s.a.w)....and thus going against the sunnah....and example is "bringing back marwan bin hakam by Uthman and awarding him the position of governer of madina when everybody knows that his family was exiled by the Prophet (s.a.w)"....do u think a person who is exiled by the prophet (s.a.w) shud be given a respectable postion in society?? inshallah if u want to discuss this topic in detail we can do so.. about the story of the door u heard....it si better if u confirm such stuff from a very famous source....just a mere word by a layman cannot be considered hujjah.....u shud not judge a religion by its people...u shud better judge us by our scholars...

Assalamu Alaikum

I understand Taqqiya, and the Ayah you gave is relevant. Alhamduillah.

SubhanAllah.. I havent accused anybody of doing this, I brought it up to put it out there that if some people hold these beliefs, they might hide them from people.

Are there further examples of the Rashidun Khilafah(RadiAllahuAnhum) going against the Sunnah? The example that you stated, I am unfamilar with, could you provide me with external information to help further my understanding? In regards to Uthman(RadiAllahuAnhu):

Abu Huraira(RAA) reported Allah's Apostle (SAWS) as saying: "The servant (who conceals) the faults of others in this world, Allah would conceal his faults on the Day of Resurrection".  (Sahih Muslim--Book #032, Hadith #6267)

May we be vigilant in the Reminder,Ameen.

In regards to the "door" story..Its just an example I wanted to share with people.

Sign*Reader wrote: asda wrote: dear br Talib_Asadullah please ignore this person sign*reader cuz i hav noticed that he is an anti shia...even though i can answer every single question of his...but i dont wanna waste time... Brother Talib; Salaam: I need to put my two cents in here please excuse me for a sec... asda....You are in our home (Let me remind you IC is Ahle Sunnah Wal Jamah's site ) you aught to learn some manners before brushing aside... or I forgot if any one who doesn't have respect for the Sahabas who were fathers in law and son in law of the Prophet(s) besides ....how could I expect any better ... In debate  either answer or you loose by default ... Others may have some comments about what you say my man.... So don't get too uptight and know it all ....

Wa Alaikum Salam

Alhamduillah,You dont have to ask me for premission to speak brother/sister! This discussion is open to anyone, your opinion holds just as much weight as mine.

hossain wrote: about the doors of the Kaba opening... yea, thats another myth lol sorry to burst ur bubble lool jkkkkk but here is why the split occurred: Before the Prophet passed away he asked for a piece of paper so he could write down that Imam Ali is to rule after him. But Abu Bakr said that there was no need and that he was delusional and not feeling well. The thing is, the prophet declares the word of Allah. Just to say that the Prophet was delusional or that he wasnt feeling well enough to know what he was saying... astaghfurallah. you see how this came about?

Assalamu Alaikum.

Its not that I consider it a myth or not, this is just what a She'ee told me.

In regards to the will...

Narrated Al-Aswad(RAA): In the presence of 'Aisha(RAA) some people mentioned that the Prophet(SAWS) had appointed 'Ali(RAA) by will as his successor. 'Aisha(RAA) said, "When did he(SAWS) appoint him(RAA) by will? Verily when he(SAWS) died he(SAWS) was resting against my chest (or said: in my lap) and he(SAWS) asked for a wash-basin and then collapsed while in that state, and I could not even perceive that he(SAWS) had died, so when did he(SAWS) appoint him by will?"  (Sahih Bukhari--Book #51, Hadith #4)

Narrated Al-Aswad(RAA): It was mentioned in the presence of 'Aisha(RAA) that the Prophet had appointed 'Ali(RAA) as successor by will. Thereupon she said, "Who said so? I saw the Prophet, while I was supporting him against my chest. He asked for a tray, and then fell on one side and expired, and I did not feel it. So how (do the people say) he appointed 'Ali as his successor?"  (Sahih Bukhari--Book #59, Hadith #736)

Narrated Talha(RAA): I asked 'Abdullah bin Abi 'Aufa(RAA), "Did the Prophet(SAWS) make a will (to appoint his successor or bequeath wealth)?" He replied, "No." I said, "How is it prescribed then for the people to make wills, and they are ordered to do so while the Prophet did not make any will?" He said, "He made a will wherein he recommended Allah's Book."  (Sahih Bukhari--Book #61, Hadith #540)

Hadith about Abu Bakr(RAA)

Narrated Al-Qasim bin Muhammad(RAA): 'Aisha said, "O my head!" Allah's Apostle(SAWS) said, "If that (i.e., your death) should happen while I am still alive, I would ask Allah to forgive you and would invoke Allah for you." 'Aisha said, "O my life which is going to be lost! By Allah, I think that you wish for my death, and if that should happen then you would be busy enjoying the company of one of your wives in the last part of that day." The Prophet said, "But I should say, 'O my head!' I feel like calling Abu Bakr and his son and appoint (the former as my successors lest people should say something or wish for something. Allah will insist (on Abu Bakr becoming a Caliph) and the believers will prevent (anyone else from claiming the Caliphate)," or "..Allah will prevent (anyone else from claiming the Caliphate) and the believers will insist (on Abu Bakr becoming the Caliph)."  (Sahih Bukhari--Book #89, Hadith #324)


A good Hadith about Umar(RAA)

 Narrated 'Amr bin Maimun(RAA): I saw 'Umar bin Al-Khattab a few days before he was stabbed in Medina. He was standing with Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman and 'Uthman bin Hunaif to whom he said, "What have you done? Do you think that you have imposed more taxation on the land (of As-Swad i.e. 'Iraq) than it can bear?" They replied, "We have imposed on it what it can bear because of its great yield." 'Umar again said, "Check whether you have imposed on the land what it can not bear." They said, "No, (we haven't)." 'Umar added, "If Allah should keep me alive I will let the widows of Iraq need no men to support them after me." But only four days had elapsed when he was stabbed (to death ). The day he was stabbed, I was standing and there was nobody between me and him (i.e. Umar) except Abdullah bin 'Abbas. Whenever Umar passed between the two rows, he would say, "Stand in straight lines." When he saw no defect (in the rows), he would go forward and start the prayer with Takbir. He would recite Surat Yusuf or An-Nahl or the like in the first Rak'a so that the people may have the time to Join the prayer. As soon as he said Takbir, I heard him saying, "The dog has killed or eaten me," at the time he (i.e. the murderer) stabbed him. A non-Arab infidel proceeded on carrying a double-edged knife and stabbing all the persons he passed by on the right and left (till) he stabbed thirteen persons out of whom seven died. When one of the Muslims saw that, he threw a cloak on him. Realizing that he had been captured, the non-Arab infidel killed himself, 'Umar held the hand of 'Abdur-Rahman bin Auf and let him lead the prayer. Those who were standing by the side of 'Umar saw what I saw, but the people who were in the other parts of the Mosque did not see anything, but they lost the voice of 'Umar and they were saying, "Subhan Allah! Subhan Allah! (i.e. Glorified be Allah)." Abdur-Rahman bin Auf led the people a short prayer. When they finished the prayer, 'Umar said, "O Ibn 'Abbas! Find out who attacked me." Ibn 'Abbas kept on looking here and there for a short time and came to say. "The slave of Al Mughira." On that 'Umar said, "The craftsman?" Ibn 'Abbas said, "Yes." 'Umar said, "May Allah curse him. I did not treat him unjustly. All the Praises are for Allah Who has not caused me to die at the hand of a man who claims himself to be a Muslim. No doubt, you and your father (Abbas) used to love to have more non-Arab infidels in Medina." Al-Abbas had the greatest number of slaves. Ibn 'Abbas said to 'Umar. "If you wish, we will do." He meant, "If you wish we will kill them." 'Umar said, "You are mistaken (for you can't kill them) after they have spoken your language, prayed towards your Qibla, and performed Hajj like yours." Then Umar was carried to his house, and we went along with him, and the people were as if they had never suffered a calamity before. Some said, "Do not worry (he will be Alright soon)." Some said, "We are afraid (that he will die)." Then an infusion of dates was brought to him and he drank it but it came out (of the wound) of his belly. Then milk was brought to him and he drank it, and it also came out of his belly. The people realized that he would die. We went to him, and the people came, praising him. A young man came saying, "O chief of the believers! Receive the glad tidings from Allah to you due to your company with Allah's Apostle and your superiority in Islam which you know. Then you became the ruler (i.e. Caliph) and you ruled with justice and finally you have been martyred." 'Umar said, "I wish that all these privileges will counterbalance (my shortcomings) so that I will neither lose nor gain anything." When the young man turned back to leave, his clothes seemed to be touching the ground. 'Umar said, "Call the young man back to me." (When he came back) 'Umar said, "O son of my brother! Lift your clothes, for this will keep your clothes clean and save you from the Punishment of your Lord." 'Umar further said, "O 'Abdullah bin 'Umar! See how much I am in debt to others." When the debt was checked, it amounted to approximately eighty-six thousand. 'Umar said, "If the property of 'Umar's family covers the debt, then pay the debt thereof; otherwise request it from Bani 'Adi bin Ka'b, and if that too is not sufficient, ask for it from Quraish tribe, and do not ask for it from any one else, and pay this debt on my behalf." 'Umar then said (to 'Abdullah), "Go to 'Aisha (the mother of the believers) and say: "Umar is paying his salutation to you. But don't say: 'The chief of the believers,' because today I am not the chief of the believers. And say: "Umar bin Al-Khattab asks the permission to be buried with his two companions (i.e. the Prophet, and Abu Bakr)." Abdullah greeted 'Aisha and asked for the permission for entering, and then entered to her and found her sitting and weeping. He said to her, "'Umar bin Al-Khattab is paying his salutations to you, and asks the permission to be buried with his two companions." She said, "I had the idea of having this place for myself, but today I prefer Umar to myself." When he returned it was said (to 'Umar), "'Abdullah bin 'Umar has come." 'Umar said, "Make me sit up." Somebody supported him against his body and 'Umar asked ('Abdullah), "What news do you have?" He said, "O chief of the believers! It is as you wish. She has given the permission." 'Umar said, "Praise be to Allah, there was nothing more important to me than this. So when I die, take me, and greet 'Aisha and say: "Umar bin Al-Khattab asks the permission (to be buried with the Prophet ), and if she gives the permission, bury me there, and if she refuses, then take me to the grave-yard of the Muslims." Then Hafsa (the mother of the believers) came with many other women walking with her. When we saw her, we went away. She went in (to 'Umar) and wept there for sometime. When the men asked for permission to enter, she went into another place, and we heard her weeping inside. The people said (to 'Umar), "O chief of the believers! Appoint a successor." Umar said, "I do not find anyone more suitable for the job than the following persons or group whom Allah's Apostle had been pleased with before he died." Then 'Umar mentioned 'Ali, 'Uthman, AzZubair, Talha, Sad and 'Abdur-Rahman (bin Auf) and said, "Abdullah bin 'Umar will be a witness to you, but he will have no share in the rule. His being a witness will compensate him for not sharing the right of ruling. If Sad becomes the ruler, it will be alright: otherwise, whoever becomes the ruler should seek his help, as I have not dismissed him because of disability or dishonesty." 'Umar added, "I recommend that my successor takes care of the early emigrants; to know their rights and protect their honor and sacred things. I also recommend that he be kind to the Ansar who had lived in Medina before the emigrants and Belief had entered their hearts before them. I recommend that the (ruler) should accept the good of the righteous among them and excuse their wrong-doers, and I recommend that he should do good to all the people of the towns (Al-Ansar), as they are the protectors of Islam and the source of wealth and the source of annoyance to the enemy. I also recommend that nothing be taken from them except from their surplus with their consent. I also recommend that he do good to the 'Arab bedouin, as they are the origin of the 'Arabs and the material of Islam. He should take from what is inferior, amongst their properties and distribute that to the poor amongst them. I also recommend him concerning Allah's and His Apostle's protectees (i.e. Dhimmis) to fulfill their contracts and to fight for them and not to overburden them with what is beyond their ability." So when 'Umar expired, we carried him out and set out walking. 'Abdullah bin 'Umar greeted ('Aisha) and said, "'Umar bin Al-Khattab asks for the permission." 'Aisha said, "Bring him in." He was brought in and buried beside his two companions. When he was buried, the group (recommended by 'Umar) held a meeting. Then 'Abdur-Rahman said, " Reduce the candidates for rulership to three of you." Az-Zubair said, "I give up my right to Ali." Talha said, "I give up my right to 'Uthman," Sad, 'I give up my right to 'Abdur-Rahman bin 'Auf." 'Abdur-Rahman then said (to 'Uthman and 'Ali), "Now which of you is willing to give up his right of candidacy to that he may choose the better of the (remaining) two, bearing in mind that Allah and Islam will be his witnesses." So both the sheiks (i.e. 'Uthman and 'Ali) kept silent. 'Abdur-Rahman said, "Will you both leave this matter to me, and I take Allah as my Witness that I will not choose but the better of you?" They said, "Yes." So 'Abdur-Rahman took the hand of one of them (i.e. 'Ali) and said, "You are related to Allah's Apostle and one of the earliest Muslims as you know well. So I ask you by Allah to promise that if I select you as a ruler you will do justice, and if I select 'Uthman as a ruler you will listen to him and obey him." Then he took the other (i.e. 'Uthman) aside and said the same to him. When 'Abdur-Rahman secured (their agreement to) this covenant, he said, "O 'Uthman! Raise your hand." So he (i.e. 'Abdur-Rahman) gave him (i.e. 'Uthman) the solemn pledge, and then 'Ali gave him the pledge of allegiance and then all the (Medina) people gave him the pledge of allegiance.  (Sahih Bukhari--Book #57, Hadith #50)

Umar's(RAA) opinion about Khilafah

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar(RAA): It was said to 'Umar(RAA), "Will you appoint your successor?" Umar said, "If I appoint a Caliph (as my successor) it is true that somebody who was better than I (i.e., Abu Bakr) did so, and if I leave the matter undecided, it is true that somebody who was better than I (i.e., Allah's Apostle) did so." On this, the people praised him. 'Umar said, "People are of two kinds: Either one who is keen to take over the Caliphate or one who is afraid of assuming such a responsibility. I wish I could be free from its responsibility in that I would receive neither reward nor retribution I won't bear the burden of the caliphate in my death as I do in my life."  (Sahih Bukhari--Book #89, Hadith #325)

Alhamduillah


Do any of these hold any weight with the Shia???