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God in Evangelical Christianity
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Orthodox View Drop Down
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    Posted: 26 July 2005 at 12:06pm
Instead of laying down the same old Trinity debate that we've had for years, here is some new to consider:

The Bible, along with its Christian scholars, teach of a significant difference between the "flesh" and the "spirit". Paul talks about how the sins that we commit are pleasing to the flesh (romans chapter 1). The Bible further elaborates on how God is a spirit, and that true believers, or people who are "born again" recieve the spirit of God and the spirit of God dwells within their very being.

Now the million dollar question for Christians is - do they, the Christians, worship the flesh of Jesus Christ or the spirit of God that dwelled within Jesus? The Christians will always talk about their concept known as - Jesus is "God in the flesh". Does this mean that the flesh itself is divine (God), or does it mean that God dwells within the flesh? Obviously the statement says God IN (within) the flesh, not God IS the flesh. Coming back to the clear distinction between the flesh and the spirit which the Bible makes. Also noting the fact that the Bible is VERY clear that God is spirit. At this point. The evangelical Christians will agree, because this fundemental doctine has always been a strict teaching of Christianity - the difference between the flesh and the spirit, and how God is spirit. ALL Christians believe this.

Now there is a slight difference between what Roman Catholics teach and what Protestant Evangelicals teach. Roman Catholics believe that EVERYONE who is born into this world is born with the spirit of God dwelling within. Protestant Evangelicals believe that you have to be "born again" to recieve the spirit of God. Either way, the spirit of God dwells within many people - not just Jesus <<.

So, if you are not worshiping the flesh of Jesus, and admit that the flesh of Jesus is a creation of God, while the spirit of God is eternal, then you admit, that the man (physical man known as Jesus, who walked the earth 2000 years ago, ate, slept , drank, and spent 9 months in Marys womb) is not what you worship, and was not literally God, but it was the spirit of God that dwelled within that flesh - man - created material, and its that spirit which you worship as your God. Correct? Obviously!

So now we have taken an important step. You now know, that the Bible teaches you, that you are not worshiping the phyiscal man - or the graven image, known as Jesus, rather you are worshiping God, who is a spirit, that same spirit of God that dwells within you, and within ALL:

One God is Father of ALL, who is above ALL, and through ALL, and in ALL. (Esphians 4:6; also see many more verses which say the same thing: John 17:20; John 14:20; Psalms 82:6)


You also must know that you do not worship words or labels: ie. YHWH, Jehovah, Jesus, Yeshua, God ..... the words are just words - you actually worship a spirit who is called by these words in human language .... people often forget this, so I felt the need to say it, in order to distinguish what exactly Christians are intending to worship, because it seems as they don't even know ..... I believe that Christians unintentionally worship the flesh of Jesus Christ, when they are not supposed too. I challenge Christians on this fact.

Finally, one thing to consider after considering all of the above is: When God's spirit dwelled within Jesus, and Jesus was God in the flesh, did God become limited to the flesh of Jesus Christ, or was God still omnipresent (did His spiritual presence still exist everywhere)? If He, God, was still omnipresent, then you can see for yourself from a different persepective how Jesus, ie. the man, was not God. Remember, Jesus is the label/name for the man. YHWH is the name or attribute of God, the spirit. (100% God, 100% Man).

I think you have understood, that my point is, that if God's spirit dwells within many, than how is that different from the man known as Jesus?

Also, after understanding all of this, can you finally understand how the Father is greater than I (Jesus)? Because the Father, who is the all-powerful omnipresent God, the only one who knows the hour, and in heaven Jesus sits on His RIGHT HAND (notice Jesus does not take the thrown, but sits on the right hand of God); clearly, while spiritually Jesus and God are one, physically they are distinct. We are all spiritually one with God. We all have the spirit of God within us. But yet, we are His creation, and distinct physically from Him. Hope you learned something new. Until next time, yours truly,

Orthodox.

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AhmadJoyia View Drop Down
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Wonderfull! My dear brother Orthodox, this is indeed a new perspective never had time to read about it before. Hoping to have some good discussion on this perspective.

Starting it on that note, obviously through some questions to more clarify your point of view; Can you ellaborate on your following question than merely stating it for others to figure it out as to how?

"that if God's spirit dwells within many, than how is that different from the man known as Jesus?" I don't know about others, but rest assure that I as dumb as you can imagine to understand your philosphy in explaining this question. I hope you would apologize my weakness and explain it by coming down to my level.

On the same token, when you say; "while spiritually Jesus and God are one, physically they are distinct. We are all spiritually one with God. We all have the spirit of God within us. But yet, we are His creation, and distinct physically from Him. " and explain as how Jesus is different than us.

 

 
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as-salaamu alaykum AhmadJoiya,

First off, you must understand, that all Christians claim to worship the uncreated God, after all its what the Bible teaches. However, whether the Christian Church actually worships the uncreated God is altogether another issue. When I refer to the Christian Church, it really does not matter what denomination .... we'll exclude JWs from the idea of "Christian Church" ....

Now, while Christians claims to worship the uncreated God, ie. the eternal spirit who is the creator, originator and sustainer of all material-phyiscal-fleshly and spiritual existance, at the same time, they forget that the name Jesus was given to the son of Mary, who was a physical-created-material-man that, slept, ate, drank, and like any other man fell prostrate to the laws of nature (laws of God). Jesus was flesh, who according to Christians DIED. But God, the spirit, is eternal, and never dies. IE. Jesus, the man, was not God. The Spirit that dwelled within Jesus, and dwells WITHIN ALL, is what you are supposed to revere and worship. Christians fail to make the distinction between Jesus the flesh and God the Spirit. When you say 100% God 100% Man; what do you mean? That God, who is spirit, and Jesus who is man, are one "spiritually", but yet not physically, is that not correct? Because God is not physical-material-flesh-created. Man is physical-material-flesh-created. Right? Make the distinction between who Jesus is and who God, thats what Christians need to do. 

I sincerely believe that Christians unintentionally worship the created man - Jesus, and not the uncreated spirit - YHWH.

Quote "that if God's spirit dwells within many, than how is that different from the man known as Jesus?" I don't know about others, but rest assure that I as dumb as you can imagine to understand your philosphy in explaining this question. I hope you would apologize my weakness and explain it by coming down to my level.

According to the Bible, and its scholars, GOD is spirit. This spirit who is the creator, originator, and sustainer of all existance, dwells within the people who are "born again" (according to Christianity; and according to the Roman Catholic Church: God's spirit exists within all people born into this world);

Now what do we mean by God's spirit exists within people or dwells within people, or that a person has recieved the "holy" spirit? In Islamic terms, the person has recieved the "ilm" or knowledge of truth - and this absolute knowledge has brought this person into a totally different spiritual state. A spiritual state of knowledge and understanding that he or she might not have had prior to "recieving the spirit of God" .... Catholics say that all of mankind understands within his inner-conscious that God exists, but fails to acknowledge it due to arrogence; therefore the spirit of God is present, but the person refuses to acknowledge it (the carnal state of mind). 

Anyhow, when we define "spirit", we automatically know that such an entity lacks material, however a "spirit" is not to be thought of as a "ghost" or "ghost-like" entity. This is entirely a fictional understanding. The spiritual existance is far more deeper, and its quite difficult to explain with language. If anyone else can explain what a spirit or spiritual entity is, please go right ahead ....

Now my point is, that Christians believe that the spirit of God dwells within many or all, depending on denomination. My point is, that if Jesus the man was a creation of God, and the side of him that was man-created-physical-material (100% Man) was in fact no different than you and I. The spirit of God which dwelled within Jesus, ie. God, is the same God and spirit that dwells within many or all, than that would mean that we, ie. people, and Jesus, are no different than each other. The only exception being, that Jesus was more spiritual - or had superior "ilm" (knowledge) in regards to the spiritual God that dwelled with him, while we, the people, have not totally grasped (or as well as Jesus did) the appreciation of that spiritual God that dwells within us ... 

Let me try an explain this one more time: Jesus, the man was just like us, because we, just like Jesus tha man, are men (human-created-material-flesh); His flesh was not superior to our flesh, because flesh is insignificant and dies .....

The spirit of God that dwelled within him (God), is the same spirit that dwells within us, as people. There is only one God, and His status is no different when dwelling within one flesh to the other. ie.

Now, I explained all of this in Biblical or Christian terms ..... In Muslim terms, its explained quite differently, because we as Muslims, have a totally different understanding of God being "omnipresent" ..... ie. we believe that God is spirit, and His knowledge, Sight etc. is everywhere, but we don't believe that God physically exists and dwells within places or people. That is why we need to understand the definition of spirit, and how God does indeed bless people "spiritually" - but not physically .... I think there exists a small confusion between the existance of God and the dwelling of God "omnipresently" - as far as that is a physical existance or a spiritual existance. We Muslims believe its entirely spiritual and that God is "above the throne" ....



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Try starting from this point, AhmadJoyia.

Everything man does (past, present and future) to try to submit to the will of
God is Jesus.

Everything God does for man is God the Father.

Cast off the intellectual training wheels of seeing God as a personality. The
difference is only one of viewpoint.
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Very well explained bro Orthodox when you say "that Jesus was more spiritual" means had more close affinity to "The Spirit" the God.

Similarly, I do appreciate Bro DavidC bringing it from another angle where "Everything man does (past, present and future) to try to submit to the will of God is Jesus."

I think, both are now comprehensibly linked as; since Jesus was more spiritual than any others, therefore, everything Jesus did was to submit to the will of God. (ASV)

Mt 6:  9 After this manner therefore pray ye. Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so on earth.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.

Similarly, here is another interesting Quote from Mt 7:21

"21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."
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DavidC, are you Christian? If So, I would love to know your viewpoint in regards to the distinction between the flesh and the spirit, and what the Christians intend to worship ...
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Yes, I am a Christian. Christians believe Jesus was at the intersection of
flesh and spirit. Not one or the other, but both simultaneously.

Some Christians, perhaps most Christians, do have a more literal
understanding. There may be no logical resolution, but they also believe
there is one God, the Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth, and of
all things visible and invisible.

Spiritual and physical existence are not an either/or situation. We are all
both, and it is not unreasonable to God can create a unique blend and that it
existed as Jesus Christ. After all, God can do anything.
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Greetings Orthodox,

 

I�d like to comment on this�

 

  


Also, after understanding all of this, can you finally understand how the Father is greater than I (Jesus)? Because the Father, who is the all-powerful omnipresent God, the only one who knows the hour, and in heaven Jesus sits on His RIGHT HAND (notice Jesus does not take the thrown, but sits on the right hand of God); clearly, while spiritually Jesus and God are one, physically they are distinct. We are all spiritually one with God. We all have the spirit of God within us. But yet, we are His creation, and distinct physically from Him. Hope you learned something new. Until next time, yours truly,


The deity of Jesus and God are completely interchangeable.

 

Let�s review a few examples as clarification for you, and others.

 

 

 

WRATH

Rev 6:16  And "they said to the mountains" and to the rocks, "Fall on us," and hide us from the face of the One sitting on the throne, and from the WRATH OF THE LAMB, Hos. 10:8

Rev 19:15  And out of His mouth goes forth a sharp sword, that with it He might smite the nations. And He will shepherd them with an iron rod. And He treads the winepress of the wine of the anger and of the WRATH OF GOD Almighty.


 

 

WORD OF GOD

 

And having been clothed in a garment which had been dipped in blood. And His name is called The Word of God.   (Rev 19:13)

 

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them. And judgment was given to them, and the souls of the ones having been beheaded because of the witness of Jesus, and because of the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor its image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.   (Rev 20:4)

 

 


 

PROSTRATE


Rev 5:8  And when He took the scroll, THE FOUR LIVING CREATURES AND THE TWENTY FOUR ELDERS FELL DOWN BEFORE THE LAMB, each one having harps, and golden bowls full of incenses, which are the prayers of the saints.

Rev 19:4  And THE TWENTY FOUR ELDERS, AND THE FOUR LIVING CREATURES FELL DOWN AND WORSHIPED GOD sitting on the throne, saying, Amen! Hallelujah!


 



BOOK OF JUDGMENT

Rev 13:8  And all those dwelling in the earth will worship it, those of whom the names had not been written in THE BOOK OF LIFE OF THE LAMB having been slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev 20:12  And I saw the dead, the small and the great, STANDING BEFORE GOD. AND BOOKS WERE OPENED. AND ANOTHER BOOK WAS OPENED, WHICH IS THE BOOK OF LIFE. And the dead were judged out of the things written in the books, according to their works.

 

 

 

Pay special attention to this one:

 

 

THRONE

 

Rev 7:10  And they cry with a great voice, saying, Salvation to our GOD SITTING ON THE THRONE, and to the Lamb.

Rev 7:17  BECAUSE THE LAMB IN THE MIDST OF THE THRONE will shepherd them, and will lead them on living springs of waters; and God will wipe off every tear from their eyes.
 
Rev 22:1  And he showed me a pure river of water of life, bright as crystal, coming forth out of THE THRONE OF GOD AND OF THE LAMB.

Rev 22:3  And every curse will no longer be. And THE THRONE OF GOD AND THE LAMB WILL BE IN IT; and His slaves will serve Him.

 

 

 

Now, that you are cognizant of the complete deity interchangeability between God and Jesus in the Holy Bible; we can proceed to observe the complete deity interchangeability between Jesus and the god �allah� of the Koran.

 

For brevity, only examples from sura 2 & sura 16 have been compared to the book of Revelation.

 

This should also give you a greater appreciation for the Biblical Book of Revelation�which is the Archetype of the Koran�

 

 

 

 

Jesus is God�


Jesus has the wrath�allah has the wrath

Wrath of God, Koran: 16:106
Wrath of God, Book of Revelation: (6:16-17, 11:18, 14:10, 14:19, 15:1, 15:7, 16:1, 16:19, 19:15)



Jesus knows the hour�.allah knows the hour

Hour, Koran 16:77
Hour, Book of Revelation: (3:3, 3:10, 9:15, 11:13, 14:7, 14:15, 17:12, 18:10, 18:17, 18:19)



Jesus hands out the reward in Heaven�.allah hands out the reward in Heaven

Reward, Koran: 16:96-97
Reward, Book of Revelation: (11:18, 22:12)



Jesus is the Resurrection�allah does the resurrecting

Resurrection, Koran: 16:21, 16:25, 16:27, 16:77, 16:92, 16:124
Resurrection, Book of Revelation: (1:5,1:18, 2:8, 3:1, 11:18, 14:13, 20:5-6, 20:12-13)


Jesus abhors idols�.allah abhors idols

Idols, Koran: 16:36
Idols, Book of Revelation: (2:14, 9:20, 2:20)



Jesus is patient�.allah is patient

Patience, Koran: 16:96, 16:126-127
Patience, Book of Revelation: (1:9, 2:2-3, 2:19, 2:26, 3:10, 13:10, 14:12)



Repent to Jesus�repent to allah

Repent, Koran: 16:119
Repent, Book of Revelation: (2:5, 2:16, 2:21-22, 3:3, 3:19, 9:20-21, 16:9, 16:11)



Jesus knows your deeds�.allah knows your deeds

Deeds, Koran: 16:63, 16:90, 16:97
Deeds, Book of Revelation: (2:5-6, 2:9, 2:13, 2:19, 2:22-23, 2:26, 3:1-2, 3:8, 9:20, 14:13, 16:11, 18:5-6, 20:12-13, 22:12)



Glory be to Jesus�glory be to allah

Glory, Koran 16:60
Glory, Book of Revelation: (1:6:, 4:9, 4:11, 5:12-13, 7:12, 11:13, 14:7, 15:4, 15:8, 16:9, 19:1, 19:7, 21:11, 21:23-24, 21:26)



Jesus is the Almighty�.allah is the almighty

Almighty, Koran�16:1, 16:3, 16:60
Almighty, Book of Revelation: (1:8, 4:8, 11:17, 15:3, 16:7, 16:14, 19:6, 19:15, 21:22)



Jesus will be coming quickly�allah will be coming quickly

Quickly, Koran: 16:77
Quickly, Book of Revelation: (1:1, 2:5, 2:16, 3:11, 11:14, 22:6-7, 22:12, 22:20)



The Book of Revelation is Truth descended from Jesus� from allah

Book of Truth, Koran: 16:89
Book of Truth, Book of Revelation: (1:1-5, 1:11, 1:19, 2:1, 2:8, 2:12, 2:18, 3:1, 3:7, 3:14, 19:9, 19:11, 21:5, 22:6-7)

 



Jesus will be coming with the clouds�.allah will be coming with the clouds

Coming with the Clouds, Koran: 2:210
Coming with the Clouds, Book of Revelation: (1:7, 10:1, 11:12, 14:14-16)



Jesus knows your deeds�.allah knows your deeds

Deeds, Koran 2:25, 2:62, 2:82, 2:139, 2:167, 2:277
Deeds, Book of Revelation: (2:5-6, 2:9, 2:13, 2:19, 2:22-23, 2:26, 3:1-2, 3:8, 9:20, 14:13, 16:11, 18:5-6, 20:12-13, 22:12)



Glory be to Jesus�glory be to allah

Glory, Koran 2:209, 2:220, 2:228, 2:240, 2:260
Glory, Book of Revelation: (1:6:, 4:9, 4:11, 5:12-13, 7:12, 11:13, 14:7, 15:4, 15:8, 16:9, 19:1, 19:7, 21:11, 21:23-24, 21:26)


Jesus will be coming quickly�allah will be coming quickly

Quickly, Koran: 2:202
Quickly, Book of Revelation: (1:1, 2:5, 2:16, 3:11, 11:14, 22:6-7, 22:12, 22:20)



Repent to Jesus�repent to allah

Repent, Koran: 2:54
Repent, Book of Revelation: (2:5, 2:16, 2:21-22, 3:3, 3:19, 9:20-21, 16:9, 16:11)



Jesus is the Resurrection�allah does the resurrecting

Resurrection, Koran: 2:8, 2:28, 2:56, 2:62, 2:73, 2:85, 2:113, 2:126, 2:154, 2:174, 2:177, 2:212, 2:228, 2:232, 2:243, 2:259-260, 2:264
Resurrection, Book of Revelation: (1:5,1:18, 2:8, 3:1, 11:18, 14:13, 20:5-6, 20:12-13)



Jesus Predestines�allah predestines

Predestination, Koran: 2:90, 2:105, 2:142, 2:212-213, 2:247, 2:251, 2:253, 2:261, 2:269, 2:272, 2:284 Predestination, Book of Revelation: (13:8-10, 17:14, 19:9)



Jesus calls out the hypocrites�allah calls-out the hypocrites

Hypocrites, Koran: 2:8-10
Hypocrites, Book of Revelation: (2:2, 2:9, 3:9, 21:8 )



Jesus is the Light and the Lamp�.allah is the light and the lamp

Light of God, Koran: 2:257
Light of God, Book of Revelation: (21:10-11, 21:23-25, 22:5)
The creator of Heaven and Earth and all things in it, Jesus created all things�allah created all things



Jesus is the Almighty�.allah is the almighty

Almighty, Koran: 2:129, 2:209, 2:220, 2:228, 2:240, 2:260
Almighty, Book of Revelation: (1:8, 4:8, 11:17, 15:3, 16:7, 16:14, 19:6, 19:15, 21:22)



The Book of Revelation is Truth descended from Jesus� from allah

Book of Truth, Koran: 2:177
Book of Truth, Book of Revelation: (1:1-5, 1:11, 1:19, 2:1, 2:8, 2:12, 2:18, 3:1, 3:7, 3:14, 19:9, 19:11, 21:5, 22:6-7)

 

 

From these examples we can conclude a couple of things:

 

  • Jesus must be God, as He shares the same deity attributes in both Holy books
  • Jesus� deity attributes existed centuries BEFORE the Koran was even written
  • The god of the Koran is an impostor that has been cloaked with Jesus� Biblical deity by the authors who penned the text

 

 

 

Thanks for your time�

 
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