God in Evangelical Christianity

Dear All,

Another point, beside being wrong on each of his similarity between God and Jesus, if someone might have noticed it is that St. Apple Pie has picked up just one book from whole of the Bible, and from this Bible, he selected the 2nd half of the Bible i.e. the NT, and from within NT, the very last book "Revelation" that too, of dubious authorship. Is this a scholarly comparison, the decision I shall leave it to you, after looking at as what various Christian scholars themselves say about this book of NT. Here are few of them with references duly provided after each of them.

"This conclusion of criticism, completing as it does the work of Dionysius the Greak of Alexandria, is one of tremendous  importance. Before his time, from 135 A.D. onward (see p. xxxix sq.), Church writers began uncritically to assign J^ap to the Apostle John. This false conception led necessarily to intolerable confusion. No matter how valid the evidence might be for the martyrdom of this Apostle before 70 A.D., it could only be regarded as purely legendary, seeing that according to the most current view John the Apostle wrote the Apocalypse and wrote it in Domitian's reign. If the Apostle were living about 95 A.D. he could not, of course, have been martyred before 70 A.D. This misconception has therefore vitiated the evidence of most Early Church writers on this question,⁽¹¹⁾ and has proved an ignis fatuus to many distinguished scholars of our own day. Hence it is not astonishing that so little evidence of the Apostle John's early martyrdom -- and yet, cumulatively considered, it is not little -- should have survived, but it is astonishing in the extreme that any evidence of any sort as to John's early martyrdom has survived at all, seeing that all but universal beliefs of the Church from the earliest ages worked for its absolute deletion from the pages of history.

NOTES
1. For convenience' sake J will designate the Gospel, 1 J the first Epistle, etc,. J^ap the Apocalypse."

Reference:A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on The Revelation of St. John by R. H. Charles
T. & T. Clark, 1920

Kindly note that "J^ap the Apocalypse" is what commonly known as "Book of Revelation".

Similarly Norman Perrin makes the following comments (The New Testament: An Introduction, pp. 81-2): "That John of Patmos can be identified as a prophet is more important to understanding his work than identifying him with some other individual named John in the New Testament. Traditionally it has been claimed that he is the John, son of Zebedee, known to us from the gospel stories, but this is most unlikely. It has also been claimed that he is the "John" of the fourth gospel, but the difference in language and style alone makes this identification quite impossible"

Secondly, though bro Apple Pie has referred Rev 5:8 to show "lamb" as same as "Jesus", but have you ever read as who is this "lamb"? Just read Rev 5:6 on ward to Rev 5:8, "⁶Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits^[a] of God sent out into all the earth. ⁷He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. ⁸And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb." Obviously either this "Lamb" can't be Jesus or Jesus is what the description shows in this passage. Since, I can't imagine Jesus being Lamb, So, very interesting to ask St. Apple Pie, as why he missed the earlier part of this passage? Is he not deceit in his appraoch?

Hence my brothers, if anything true that can be said about this book of dubious authorship is to know that Revelation must be understood imaginatively rather than with wooden literalism.

Greetings uncszs,

Thanks for your comments�

I'm posting this to urge all to get the RIGHT translations and RIGHT context prior to quoting anything; be it from the Bible or the Quran.

Just an example, quoting your post :

Jesus knows the hour�.allah knows the hour

Hour, Koran 16:77
Hour, Book of Revelation: (3:3, 3:10, 9:15, 11:13, 14:7, 14:15, 17:12, 18:10, 18:17, 18:19)

The right translation of the Holy Quran, 16:77 is : To Allah belongeth the Unseen of the heavens and the earth. And the matter of the Hour (of Judgment) is as the twinkling of an eye, or even quicker: for Allah hath power over all things.

There is no mention here that Jesus knows the Hour.

Let�s look�

Koranic Eschatology

When will it happen�

Hour, Koran:    (6:31, 6:40, 7:187, 12:107, 15:85, 16:77, 18:21, 18:36, 19:75, 20:15, 21:49, 22:1, 22:6, 22:55, 25:11, 30:12, 30:14, 30:55, 31:34, 32:63, 34:3, 40:46, 40:59, 41:47, 41:50, 42:17-18, 43:61, 43:66, 43:85, 45:27, 45:32, 47:18, 54:1, 54:46, 79:42) 

Hour, Book of Revelation:  (3:3, 3:10, 9:15, 11:13, 14:7, 14:15, 17:12, 18:10, 18:17, 18:19)

Hour, Koran

Those who denied had lost with Allah's meeting until when the Hour/Resurrection came to them suddenly, they said: "Oh, our grief/sorrow on what we neglected/wasted in it." And they are carrying their sins on their backs, is it not evil/harmful what they carry/bear?   (6:31)

Say: "Did I show you/make you understand, if Allah's torture came to you, or the Hour/Resurrection came to you, is (it) other than Allah you call, if you are/were truthful?"  (6:40)

 They ask/question you about the Hour/Resurrection, when (is) its anchor/landing, say: "But its knowledge (is) at my Lord, not (no one) uncovers/reveals it to its time except He, (it) became heavy in the skies/space and the earth/Planet Earth, (it) does not come to you except suddenly/unexpectantly." They ask/question you, as (though) you (are) well acquainted/asking persistently (knowledgeable) about it, say: "But its knowledge (is) at Allah, and but most of the people do not know."  (7:187)

Did they become safe that (a) cover/disaster from Allah's torture comes to them, or the Hour/Resurrection comes to them suddenly/unexpectedly and (while) they do not feel/know/sense?  (12:107)

And We did not create the skies/space and the earth/Planet Earth and what (is) between them except with the truth, and that truly the Hour/Resurrection is coming so forgive/pardon the forgiveness/pardon, the beautiful/graceful.  (15:85)

And to Allah (is) the skies'/space's and the earth's/Planet Earth's unseen/invisible ; and the Hour's/Resurrection's order/command/matter/affair is not except as the eye sights'/knowledges' twinkling/quick glance or it is nearer/closer, that Allah (is) on every thing capable/able.  (16:77)

And as/like that We made be stumbled upon on them (We made them be stumbled upon) to know that Allah's promise (is) truth, and that the Hour/Resurrection (there is) no doubt/suspicion in it, when they dispute/argue their matter/affair between them, so they said: "Build/construct on them a building/structure, their Lord (is) more knowledgeable with (of) them." Those who defeated/overcame on their matter/affair said: "We will take on them a mosque/place of worshipping Allah."  (18:21)

"And I do not think/suppose (that) the Hour/Resurrection (is) starting, and if I returned to my Lord I will find better than it a place of return."  (18:36)

Say: "Who was in the misguidance, so the merciful will extend/spread for him extension/spreading until when they saw/understood what they are being promised, either the torture, and either the Hour/Resurrection, so they will know who he is worst (in) a place/position, and weaker soldiers/warriors."  (19:75)

"That the Hour/Resurrection is coming, I am about to/almost, I hide it, (so) each self (is) to be rewarded/reimbursed because (of) what it strives/endeavors.  (20:15)

Those who fear their Lord with the unseen and they are from the Hour/Resurrection they are afraid/guarding.  (21:49)

You, you the people, fear and obey your Lord, that the Hour's/Resurrection's shaking/rumbling/moving (is) a great thing.  (22:1)

And that the Hour/Resurrection is coming no doubt/suspicion in it, and that Allah sends/resurrects who (is) in the graves/burial places.  (22:7)

And those who disbelieved remain/continue in doubt from it until the Hour/Resurrection comes to them suddenly/unexpectedly, or a day/time of no good strong/infertile torture comes to them.  (22:55)
 

But they denied with the Hour/Resurrection, and We prepared to who denied with the Hour/Resurrection blazing/inflaming (fire).  (25:11)

And a day/time the Hour/Resurrection starts the criminals/sinners become confused/dumbfounded.  (30:12)

On the Day that the Hour will be established, - that Day shall (all men) be sorted out.  (30:14)

And a day/time the Hour/Resurrection starts the criminals/sinners swear/make oath (that) they did stay/remain except an hour, as/like that, they were being lied to/turned away.  (30:55)

That truly Allah at him (is) the Hour's/Resurrection's knowledge, and He descends the rain, and He knows what (is) in the wombs/uteruses, and no self knows what it earns/acquires tomorrow (in the) future, and no self knows with/at which land/ground/Earth it dies, that truly Allah (is) knowledgeable, expert/experienced.  (31:34)

The people ask/question you about the Hour/Resurrection, say: "Truly its knowledge (is) at Allah, and what informs you maybe/perhaps the Hour/Resurrection be near/close."  (32:63)

And those who disbelieved said: "The Hour/Resurrection does not come to us," Say: "Yes/ certainly, and (by) my Lord it comes to you, knower (of) the unseen/absent, a weight (of) a smallest particle of anything in the universe does not be far, hidden and distant from Him in the skies/space and the earth/Planet Earth and nor smaller/littler than that, and nor greater except in a clear/evident Book."  (34:3)

The fire they are being displayed/exhibited on (to) it, (at) early morning and (at) evening/first darkness, and a day/time the Hour/Resurrection starts Pharaoh's family enter (in) the torture's strongest.  (40:46)

That truly the Hour/Resurrection is coming  no doubt/suspicion in it, and but most of the people do not believe.  (40:59)

To Him the Hour's/Resurrection's knowledge be returned, and none emerges from fruits from its buds/covers from which they emerge, and none from a female conceives/(is) pregnant with/carries, and nor gives birth/drops except with His knowledge, and a day/time He calls them: "Where (are) my partners?" They said: "We took your leave, we informed you, none from an honest witness/testifier is from us."  (41:47)

And if We made him taste/experience mercy from Us, from after calamity/disastrous distress touched him, he will say: "That (is) for me, and I do not think/assume the Hour/Resurrection (is) starting, and if I was returned to my Lord, that truly for me at Him (is) the best/most beautiful/goodness." So We will inform those who disbelieved with what they made/did, and We will make them taste/experience from a strong/rough torture.  (41:50)

Allah (is) who descended The Book with the truth, and the scale/measuring instrument, and what makes you know/informs you, maybe/perhaps the Hour/Resurrection (is) near/close.  Those who do not believe with (in) it hasten/urge with it, and those who believed (are) afraid/cautious from it, and they know that it (is) the truth, is (it) not that truly those who argue/discuss in the Hour/Resurrection (are) in far/distant misguidance?  (42:17-18)

And that he/it truly is knowledge to the Resurrection/Time of Resurrection/Hour, so do not doubt/argue with it, and follow Me, that (is a) straight/direct road/way.  (43:61)
 

 Do they look/watch/wonder about except that the Hour/Resurrection comes to them suddenly/unexpectedly and they do not feel/know/sense?  (43:66)

And blessed who for Him (is) the skies'/space's and the earth's/Planet Earth's and what (is) between them ownership/kingdom, and at Him (is) the Hour's/Resurrection's knowledge, and to Him you are being returned.  (43:85)

And to Allah (are) the skies'/space's and the earth's/Planet Earth's ownership/possession, and a day/time the Hour/Resurrection starts, that day, the wasters/annulers loose.  (45:27)

And if (it) was said: "That truly Allah's promise (is) truth, and the Hour/Resurrection (there is) no doubt/suspicion in it." You said: "We do not know what (is) the Hour/Resurrection, that we assume/suppose except thought/assumption, and we (are) not with being sure/certain."  (45:32)

So do they wait/watch except (for) the Hour/Resurrection that it comes to them suddenly/unexpectedly, so its signs/indications had come, so how (is it) for them if/when their reminder/remembrance came to them?  (47:18)

The Hour/Resurrection neared/approached, and the moon split/cracked/cut open.  (54:1)

 But the Hour/Resurrection (is) their appointment, and the Hour/Resurrection (is) more disastrous/catastrophic and more bitter/firmer.  (54:46)

They ask/question you about the Hour/Resurrection when (is) its LANDING?  (79:42)

Hour, Book of Revelation

Then remember how you received and heard, and keep, and repent. If, then, you do not watch, I will come upon you like a thief and you will not at all know what hour I come upon you.   (Rev 3:3)

Because you kept the Word of My patience, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial which is going to come on all the habitable world in order to try those dwelling on the earth.  (Rev 3:10)

And the four angels were released, those having been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, that they should kill the third part of men.   (Rev 9:15)

And in that hour a great earthquake occurred, and the tenth part of the city fell. And there were killed in the earthquake seven thousand names of men. And the rest became terrified, and gave glory to the God of Heaven.   (Rev 11:13)

Saying in a great voice, Fear God, and give glory to Him, because the hour of His judgment has come; also, Worship "Him who has made the heaven, and the earth, and the sea," and the springs of waters. Ex. 20:11   (Rev 14:7) 

And another angel went forth out of the temple, crying in a great voice to the One sitting on the cloud, Send Your sickle and reap, because Your hour to reap came, because the harvest of the earth was dried.   (Rev 14:15) 

And the ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but will receive authority as kings one hour with the beast.   (Rev 17:12) 

Standing from afar because of the fear of her torment, saying, Woe! Woe to the great city, Babylon, the strong city! For in one hour your judgment came.   (Rev 18:10) 

For in one hour such great wealth was desolated. And every ship-pilot and all company on the ships, and sailors, and as many as work the sea, stood from afar,   (Rev 18:17)

And they threw dust on their heads, and cried out, weeping and mourning, saying, Woe! Woe to the great city, by which all those having ships in the sea were rich, from her costliness, because in one hour she was ruined.   (Rev 18:19) 

Summary:

1)      Will the Hour be unexpected?...Revelation, yes�Koran, yes

2)      Who knows the Hour?...Revelation, Jesus�Koran, Allah

3)      Allah has aligned his �deity� with that of Jesus

4)      The Koran is stating that Jesus is God

Does this adequately answer your query�.?

Apple Pie, Where did you get your Quranic translations ?

As a baseline starting point, it is best to use this rendering:

The Koran, Complete Dictionary & Literal Translation, Mohamed Ahmed

Aside from self-study, this is (by far) the most accurate English rendering available today�.and it is completely free�

As far as cracking the real internals of the Koran, it is an absolute must that you obtain Lane�s Lexicon, as this is the reference gold standard to unlocking the true meanings of the classic Arabic of the Koran.

Don�t leave home without it�..