God in Evangelical Christianity

Greetings Orthodox,

 

Thanks for your selective reply�

 

 

If you go to the Converts to Islam section, I posted there, that I am a convert to Islam from the Ahmadiyya Qadiani Movement.

 

A �convert to Islam� tells us that you follow Islam over that of your book of faith�as the two do not support one another.

 

Had you stated that you were a follower of the classic Arabic of your scriptures; then you would have gained some of our respect�

 

 

You were a regular at the now extinct website ahmadiyya.com, and were posting the same stuff from the Book of Revelation, that you are now, approx 2 years later, at Islamicity .... Since the website is now extinct, I can't provide links, however, I am sure you remember .....

 

Yes�we remember you�

 

 

 

You're telling me that the son of Mary, son of Man, that walked this earth, ate, slept, drank, and fell prostrate to the laws of God, was not created? His flesh existed prior to his spending 9 months in Mary's womb? Or did the eternal spirit of God that is breathed into every man, is what existed? Or was it predestined or decreed by God prior to its actual occurance, that the Messiah would be? I am sure you don't believe that the flesh of Jesus existed prior to its birth in Mary's womb. Jesus was a man-flesh. God is spirit. Period.

 

 

I already went over this, and hoped you had actually read what I wrote in regards to this before making this statement. Instead of re-writing it, i'll just quote myself:

 

- The Christians will always talk about their concept known as - Jesus is "God in the flesh". Does this mean that the flesh itself is divine (God), or does it mean that God dwells within the flesh spiritually? Obviously the statement says God IN (within) the flesh, not God IS the flesh. Coming back to the clear distinction between the flesh and the spirit which the Bible makes. Also noting the fact that the Bible is VERY clear that God is spirit.

 

Point being, the physical manifestation or the flesh itself is not God ... its the spiritual presence of God with and within (in) the physical-flesh-created aspect .... Jesus is not the only flesh-man to have the spiritual presence of God with and within .... According to Christian doctrine all born-agains recieve the spirit of God. Please tell me if you agree, that you are not worshiping the flesh of Jesus Christ, and if you are worshiping the flesh of Jesus, then clearly tell me that as well. Please don't beat around the bush on this one ... I would appreciate it ....

 

 

Let�s look�

Joh 1:1  In¹⁷²² the beginning⁷⁴⁶ was²²⁵⁸ the³⁵⁸⁸ Word,³⁰⁵⁶ and²⁵³² the³⁵⁸⁸ Word³⁰⁵⁶ was²²⁵⁸ with⁴³¹⁴ God,²³¹⁶ and²⁵³² the³⁵⁸⁸ Word³⁰⁵⁶ was²²⁵⁸ God.²³¹⁶

Joh 1:2  The same³⁷⁷⁸ was²²⁵⁸ in¹⁷²² the beginning⁷⁴⁶ with⁴³¹⁴ God.²³¹⁶

Joh 1:3  All things³⁹⁵⁶ were made¹⁰⁹⁶ by¹²²³ Him;⁸⁴⁶ and²⁵³² without⁵⁵⁶⁵ Him⁸⁴⁶ was not³⁷⁶¹ any thing¹⁵²⁰ made¹⁰⁹⁶ that³⁷³⁹ was made.¹⁰⁹⁶

Joh 1:4  In¹⁷²² Him⁸⁴⁶ was²²⁵⁸ life;²²²² and²⁵³² the³⁵⁸⁸ life²²²² was²²⁵⁸ the³⁵⁸⁸ light⁵⁴⁵⁷ of men.⁴⁴⁴

 

 

John tells us this:

 

• The Word was in the beginning
• The Word was with God
• The Word was God
• All things were made by the Word
• In the Word was every living soul #G2222 �zōe�

 

 

 

Joh 1:9  That was²²⁵⁸ the³⁵⁸⁸ true²²⁸ Light,⁵⁴⁵⁷ which³⁷³⁹ lighteth⁵⁴⁶¹ every³⁹⁵⁶ man⁴⁴⁴ that cometh²⁰⁶⁴ into¹⁵¹⁹ the³⁵⁸⁸ world.²⁸⁸⁹

Joh 1:10  He was²²⁵⁸ in¹⁷²² the³⁵⁸⁸ world,²⁸⁸⁹ and²⁵³² the³⁵⁸⁸ world²⁸⁸⁹ was made¹⁰⁹⁶ by¹²²³ him,⁸⁴⁶ and²⁵³² the³⁵⁸⁸ world²⁸⁸⁹ knew¹⁰⁹⁷ him⁸⁴⁶ not.³⁷⁵⁶

Joh 1:11  He came²⁰⁶⁴ unto¹⁵¹⁹ his own,²³⁹⁸ and²⁵³² his own²³⁹⁸ received³⁸⁸⁰ him⁸⁴⁶ not.³⁷⁵⁶

 

 

John tells us this:

 

• The Word was in the Universe
• The Universe came into existence through the Word

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Joh 1:14  And²⁵³² the³⁵⁸⁸ Word³⁰⁵⁶ was made¹⁰⁹⁶ flesh,⁴⁵⁶¹ and²⁵³² dwelt⁴⁶³⁷ among¹⁷²² us,²²⁵⁴ (and²⁵³² we beheld²³⁰⁰ his⁸⁴⁶ glory,¹³⁹¹ the glory¹³⁹¹ as⁵⁶¹³ of the only begotten³⁴³⁹ of³⁸⁴⁴ the Father,)³⁹⁶² full⁴¹³⁴ of grace⁵⁴⁸⁵ and²⁵³² truth.²²⁵

 

 

John tells us this:

 

• The Word became flesh
• The Word is Jesus Christ

 

 

 

Thus�.it is quite clear from the above that the Word is Jesus�.and that Jesus brought into existence the entire physical Universe including the flesh of which He manifested His earthly tenure�

 

 

 

Now�.compare the Spirit�.

 

 

 

 

Luke 1�compare to sura 21�

                   

Well�.let�s review both in context�first the Koranic passages�

 

 

21.89          And Zachary/Zacharias/Zachariah when he called/cried (to) his Lord: "My Lord do not leave me alone, and you are the heirs'/inheritants' best."

 

21.90   So We answered/replied to him, and We granted to him John/Yahya and We corrected/reconciliated for him his wife , that they truly were speeding/rushing in the goodnesses, and they call Us desiring/wishing and with awe/monastically , and they were for Us humble/submissive .

 

21.91   And who remained chaste/(protected) her genital parts, so We blew into her from Our Soul/Spirit , and We made/created her and her son (as) an evidence/sign to the creations all together/(universes).

 

21.92   That this (is) your handmaid, one handmaid, and I am your Lord, so worship Me.

 

21.93   And they separated/divided their matter/affair between them, all/each to Us are returning.

 

21.94   So who makes/does from the correct/righteous deeds, and he is believing, so (there is) no cover/substitution (denial) for his striving/endeavor , We are for it/him writing/dictating .

 

21.95   And forbidden on a village/urban city We made it die/destroyed it , that they do not return.

 

21.96   Until when Yagog and Magog was opened , and they are for every/each hard/elevated ground, they rush down/separate .

 

 

 

Now�let�s compare to Luke chapter one (where these Koranic ayahs had their genesis)�.

 

 

(Luk 1:5)  In the days of Herod the king of Judea, there was a certain priest named Zacharias, of the daily course of Abijah. And his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth.

 

(Luk 1:6)  And they were both righteous before God, walking blameless in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord.

 

(Luk 1:7)  And no child was born to them, because Elizabeth was barren. And both were advanced in their days.

 

(Luk 1:8 )  And it happened in his serving as priest in the order of his course before God,

 

(Luk 1:9)  according to the custom of the priests, entering into the Holy Place of the Lord, it was Zacharias' lot to burn incense.

 

(Luk 1:10)  And all the multitude of the people was praying outside at the hour of incense.

 

(Luk 1:11)  And an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing on the right of the altar of incense.

 

(Luk 1:12)  And seeing this, Zacharias was troubled, and fear fell on him.

 

(Luk 1:13)  But the angel said to him, Do not fear, Zacharias, because your prayer was heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear a son to you, and you shall call his name John.

 

(Luk 1:14)  And he will be joy and exultation to you, and many will rejoice over his birth.

 

(Luk 1:15)  For he shall be great in the eyes of the Lord, and he shall not drink wine or strong drink. And he will be filled of the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb.

 

(Luk 1:16)  And he will turn many of the sons of Israel to the Lord their God.

 

(Luk 1:17)  And he will go out before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah "to turn the hearts of fathers to their children," and disobedient ones to the wisdom of the just, to make ready a people having been prepared for the Lord. Mal. 4:5, 6

 

(Luk 1:18 )  And Zacharias said to the angel, By what shall I know this? For I am old and my wife is advanced in her days.

 

(Luk 1:19)  And answering, the angel said to him, I am Gabriel, who stands before God, and I was sent to speak to you and to announce to you the good news of these things.

 

(Luk 1:20)  And behold, you shall be silent and not able to speak until the day these things take place, because you did not believe my words which shall be fulfilled in their season.

 

(Luk 1:21)  And the people were expecting Zacharias, and they wondered at his delay in the temple.

 

(Luk 1:22)  But coming out, he was not able to speak to them, and they recognized that he had seen a vision in the temple. And he was making signs to them and continued dumb.

 

(Luk 1:23)  And it happened when the days of his service were fulfilled, he went away to his house.

 

(Luk 1:24)  And after these days his wife Elizabeth conceived. And she hid herself five months, saying,

 

(Luk 1:25)  So has the Lord done to me in the days in which He looked on me to take away my reproach among men.

 

(Luk 1:26)  And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth,

 

(Luk 1:27)  to a virgin who had been betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

 

(Luk 1:28 )  And entering, the angel said to her, Hail, one having received grace! The Lord is with you. You are blessed among women!

 

(Luk 1:29)  And seeing this, she was disturbed at his word, and considered what kind of greeting this might be.

 

(Luk 1:30)  And the angel said to her, Do not fear, Mary, for you have found favor from God.

 

(Luk 1:31)  And behold! You will conceive in your womb and bear a Son, and you will call His name Jesus.

 

(Luk 1:32)  This One will be great and will be called Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David.

 

(Luk 1:33)  And He will reign over the house of Jacob to the ages, and of His kingdom there will be no end.

 

(Luk 1:34)  But Mary said to the angel, How will this be since I do not know a man?

 

(Luk 1:35)  And answering, the angel said to her, The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you, and for this reason that Holy One being born of you will be called Son of God.

 

(Luk 1:36)  And behold, your kinswoman Elizabeth! She also conceived a son in her old age, and this is the sixth month to her who was called barren;

 

(Luk 1:37)  for nothing shall be impossible with God.

 

(Luk 1:38 )  And Mary said, Behold, the slave woman of the Lord! May it be to me according to your word. And the angel departed from her.

 

 

 

Here are the undeniable parallels between these split passages:

 

1)         Zacharias & his wife are told that they will have a child?�.Luke, yes�.Koran, yes

 

2)         Will the child be a boy?.....Luke, yes�.Koran, yes

 

3)         What will the child�s name be?.....Luke, John�..Koran, John

 

4)         Next, will a virgin become pregnant?....Luke, yes�..Koran, yes

 

5)         Is this virgin considered a slave woman (handmaid)?...Luke, yes�Koran, yes

 

6)         Who tells the virgin this?...Luke, Holy Spirit�.Koran, Holy Spirit

 

7)         Will the child be a boy?....Luke, yes�.Koran, yes

 

8 )        Will this child be a miracle?.....Luke, yes�.Koran, yes

 

 

See how the Koran copied the Holy Bible�.?

 

Thus�.it is quite clear from the above examples that Jesus is both the Holy Spirit and the Word. 

Jesus has always existed.

The deity is interchangeable�just as we showed you from the few examples from the Book of Revelation.

 

Now�observe this startling revelation from your very own scriptures�

 

4:171   You The Book's people, do not exaggerate/exceed the limit in your religion, and do not say on Allah except the truth, but the Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son Allah's messenger and His Word He threw it away to Mary, and a Soul/Spirit from Him; so believe with Allah, and His messengers, and do not say: "Three." Stop (it is) best for you, but Allah (is) one Allah, His praise/glory that to be for him a child; for Him what (is) in the skies/space and what (is) in the earth/Planet Earth, enough/sufficient with Allah (as a) guardian/protector.

 

 

• You The Book's people, do not exaggerate/exceed the limit in your religion,
• �wa� and do not say on Allah except the truth,
• but the Messiah, Jesus,
• Mary's son
• Allah's messenger
• �wa� and His Word
• He threw it away to Mary,
• �wa� and a Soul/Spirit from Him;
• �fa� so believe with Allah,
• �wa� and His messengers,
• �wa� and do not say: "Three." Stop (it is) best for you,
• but Allah (is) one Allah,
• His praise/glory that to be for him a child;
• for Him what (is) in the skies/space
• �wa� and what (is) in the earth/Planet Earth, enough/sufficient with Allah (as a) guardian/protector.

 

It is clear from the text that Jesus is both Mary�s and (in this case) �allah�s� son.

 

Same theme copied from the Holy Bible.

 

Observe that Jesus is not merely �allah�s  messenger; but he is also �wa� his Word.

 

Same theme copied from the Holy Bible.

 

 

Furthermore, the �allah� of the Koran is shown to have a Spirit which is also imputed into Jesus.

 

Same theme copied from the Holy Bible.

 

 

Thus�.we have just witnessed three elements of �allah�.

 

Now...look what is stated next�

 

�do not say: "Three."

 

Why should we not say that �allah� is three when we were just told of three elements that pertain to him�.?

 

Here�s why�

 

Because�

 

�Allah (is) one Allah�

 

 

What a novel idea.

 

Sound familiar�.?

 

It should, as it is lifted right out of the Holy Bible.

 

 

 

 

Furthermore�look at what the text states after this�

 

�verily he shall be a child for Him�

 

 

Rock-solid Biblical confirmation that Jesus is God's son!!!

 

 

 

Please tell us�.how the one god �allah� can have a Spirit�and a Word�.and a son�.!

 

 

 

 

 

Adam, Eve, and Mel-chesidek are not "created" as most humans are either ..... Defying the laws of nature does not make the creation divine, it or he, Jesus, is still an element of God's creation. His physical structure, his body, his DNA, his flesh, is a creation of God. Do you deny this?

Please bring forth the �creation� ayahs of Adam, Eve, and �Mel-chesidek� For comparison against Jesus�.

 

 

 

 

For IN (within) him, dwells the fullness of Godhead bodily ..... the flesh itself is not divine ..... the spirit of God that dwelled within or in him was divine, and that same spirit allegedly dwells within ALL:

We have amply demonstrated that the Holy Spirit is the same as the Word which is the same as Jesus Christ.

It�s time you became cognizant of the Triune entity Creator God revealed in the Holy Bible�.as the authors of your book of faith also copied these same elements over into their opus�

 

 

 

 

One God is Father of ALL, who is above ALL, and through ALL, and in ALL. (Esphians 4:6; also see many more verses which say the same thing: John 17:20; John 14:20; Psalms 82:6)

 

And�.?

 

 

 

 

Well, this contradicts your point, because, the vantage point of Jesus, WHILE he is sitting on the right hand of God, is THEN, at that point, while Jesus is in heaven sitting on the right hand of God, that He, the son, DOES NOT KNOW THE HOUR  ....

 

You had the golden opportunity to admit that Jesus occupies the throne, as clearly stated in the Book of Revelation�.yet you failed to acknowledge this�.why is that�.?

 

Clearly�.Jesus knows the hour�.as He is God Almighty and has the vantage point of Heaven.

 

 

 

Thanks�

 

Here is a interesting thought for the Evangelical to contemplate:

A challenge to the Christain understanding on God's love:

1) If God is so ever loving prove that its unconditional or conditional if, unconditional prove how religious influence does not run contrary to his unconditional love. If conditional then its important to note that God is not ever loving and that his love is selective for those who convert to a specific religious congregation.

This is indeed a challenge to the one who is an evangelical but of course like most, always uses scripture but I doubt scripture will help in this case. Let me help in the first case of my challenge what I mean by how "his unconditional love does not run contrary to religious influence" what I mean is, is that how does God loving all of his creatures equally (since everybody is seen loved unconditionally this is equal) is not influenced by Evangelical doctrine? From ym understanding one has to believe in the life, death and ressurection of Jesus. Now if God loves all unconditionally then one does not need to believe in such since God is seen unconditional how does that not run contrary to Evangelical belief?

Also, if conditional then God is not ever loving as Christians mention and is selective on those he love (What I mean by love is the blessing of being near to him) so how does God being conditional support their claims on God?

 

Israfil wrote: Here is a interesting thought for the Evangelical to contemplate: A challenge to the Christain understanding on God's love: 1) If God is so ever loving prove that its unconditional or conditional if, unconditional prove how religious influence does not run contrary to his unconditional love. If conditional then its important to note that God is not ever loving and that his love is selective for those who convert to a specific religious congregation. This is indeed a challenge to the one who is an evangelical but of course like most, always uses scripture but I doubt scripture will help in this case. Let me help in the first case of my challenge what I mean by how "his unconditional love does not run contrary to religious influence" what I mean is, is that how does God loving all of his creatures equally (since everybody is seen loved unconditionally this is equal) is not influenced by Evangelical doctrine? From ym understanding one has to believe in the life, death and ressurection of Jesus. Now if God loves all unconditionally then one does not need to believe in such since God is seen unconditional how does that not run contrary to Evangelical belief? Also, if conditional then God is not ever loving as Christians mention and is selective on those he love (What I mean by love is the blessing of being near to him) so how does God being conditional support their claims on God?

Acts 4:12 says, "There is no other name given under heaven by which men must be saved."

It does not say that all men will know or call on that Name verbally to be saved. (i.e. the sinner's prayer or some such confession like that).  Romans 3 talks about the conscience alternately accusing or defending one before God.  God is just and desires that all be saved and come to a knowledge of the Truth (1 Tim. 2:4)

And so God can very well simultaneously love unconditionally, and have a reasonable, available and universal condition for salvation (i.e. Jesus is the Way) to satisfy His justice.  It is God's justice that demands the condition of the Sacrifice for sins.  It is the provision of that Sacrifice, like the ram in the the thicket for Abraham to save Isaac, that proves God's unconditional love for all humanity.  It is the rejection of God's unconditional love that place people outside of the condition of His justice and condemns them.  It is not God's lack of love or conditional love that condemns them but their own rejection of God and His love.

Another simultaneous proof of God's unconditional love and his condition for satisfying Justice is that He credits men and women's faith to them as righteousness, as He did with Abraham. (Romans 4:9, and c.f. Romans 3 that I referred to above.)  It is a fact, that none of those that lived before Jesus, called on His name specifically and so there must be salvation by other means than just the literal sinner's prayer (as in the crediting righteousness to Abraham due to his faith.)

Romans 4:9
Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness.

The Bible also says that one day 'every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.'  It is my belief that God's preference is for everyone to call on the Name of Jesus (His Son in Whom He is well pleased) but that He is prepared, in His infinite wisdom, to make a Way of salvation that, while it doesn't include literally calling on the Name of Jesus, utilized the efficacy of Jesus' sacrifice (as I mentioned earlier that God credited righteousness to Abraham because of his faith.)

Those people that did not have the opportunity, for a legitimate reason, to call on the Name of Jesus in this world, will someday confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (to the Glory of God the Father.)  And in God's wisdom, He will impute the faith of some of these as righteousness.

And so all are without excuse before the great and awesome God.  Hebrews affirms - "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."  Wouldn't you rather embrace God's Provision now in Jesus Christ, than wait and chance things then?

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believed in Him, would not perish, but have everlasting life."
John 3:16




Edited by b95000

Funny where are the Evangelist when you need them to answer a question hmmmmmm