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The Divinity of Christ
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pfmobley View Drop Down
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    Posted: 28 June 2011 at 4:08pm
As some one who is a Christian looking into the world of Islam from the outside looking in; it appears that most converts from Christianity to Islam had definate issues with the Holy Trinity of God, the Father; God, the Son; and God, the Holy Spirit.  Most converts from Christianity saw this as a confusing issue and could never rectify the idea in their minds.  I'd like to know, exactly why this is a difficult subject to grasp and how does Islam explain the verse in the Holy Bible in the book of St. John that states,

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Please elaborate.
 
Respectfully,
 
Phillip
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islamispeace View Drop Down
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Even though I am not a convert, I can provide the Islamic basis for why some Christians convert to Islam.  The difficulty people have is indeed with regard to the status of Jesus (pbuh).  First and foremost, the trinity is not mentioned in the Bible.  Second, the verses (such as John 14:6) which allude to the divinity of Jesus (pbuh) are contradicted by those which show his humanity.  How then can Jesus be God?  Third, if Jesus is God, then why is he called God's son?  And why was he praying to the Father?  Was he praying to himself?  These are the difficulties many people have.  They find answers in the Quran, which describes Jesus as a mighty prophet, but human nonetheless and the servant of God.  The following are some verses about him:

"We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you a messenger with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!" (2:87)

"Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah;" (3:45)

"The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was." (3:59)

"O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs." (4:171)
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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While it is true the word "trinity" is not mentioned in the bible, the presents of the three powers of God are represented and referred to within the bible. Secondly, the verse in St. John 14:6 speaks to the process by which one can come to salvation. St. John 10 verses 1-17 spoken by Christ Himself describes the relationship of Christ to His followers. As far as, how can Christ be God and pray to Himself? He (Christ) is simply praying to the head of the trinity; God the Father. One must understand that even you or I as corporeal beings have the same complexities to our personalities. I have 3 names, a first, middle and last name. I am known by all 3, but all of them mean different things at different times. Because we are corporeal beings, we do not have the spiritual power to separate our physical selves into three or more beings; but God can. If we ignore his power or try to limit His abilities, we limit His power because we do not understand it. If you believe that God is all powerful, then there is nothing that He cannot do; including being 3 separate entities and one God. Jesus is more than just a mighty prophet. I would suggest that if there is any confusion about this, then read the book of John beginning at the first chapter and the first verse. It states, 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

This selection of verses speak to Jesus being there at the beginning of creation. When God spoke the words of creation and the universe was formed, it was Christ who was the physical manifestation every word that proceeded from the mouth of God. Christ is so much more than a prophet. He is the physical manifestation of the will of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.(Romans 10:4). I would suggest you read verses 1 through 4.

I hope this answers some of the questions that some of you may have concerning Christ's divinity.

Blessings,

Phillip
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Hi Phillip.  Sorry for the late response. 

Quote While it is true the word "trinity" is not mentioned in the bible, the presents of the three powers of God are represented and referred to within the bible.


Perhaps, but are they ever mentioned in the context of "three persons, one substance" as Tertullian put it?  Are they ever represented as three persons of the "triune Godhead"? 

Quote Secondly, the verse in St. John 14:6 speaks to the process by which one can come to salvation. St. John 10 verses 1-17 spoken by Christ Himself describes the relationship of Christ to His followers. As far as, how can Christ be God and pray to Himself? He (Christ) is simply praying to the head of the trinity; God the Father. One must understand that even you or I as corporeal beings have the same complexities to our personalities. I have 3 names, a first, middle and last name. I am known by all 3, but all of them mean different things at different times.


This still does not answer why Jesus (the "Son") was praying to what is essentially himself as the "Father".  If Jesus was "God", why was he praying to himself?  Your first, middle and last name analogy simply does not make sense here.  You certainly may have three names, but do you ever refer (or talk) to yourself by one of those names?  Let's assume your middle name is John.  Do you, Phillip, ever say to yourself "You know John, I am hungry.  Let's get something to eat"?  Probably not.  This is the problem I and other people have with Jesus praying to God and constantly referring to Him as clearly superior to himself.  Of course, to me it makes sense that he was praying.  It shows that he was just a man.  God does not pray to anyone, let alone Himself.

Quote Because we are corporeal beings, we do not have the spiritual power to separate our physical selves into three or more beings; but God can. If we ignore his power or try to limit His abilities, we limit His power because we do not understand it.
 

Agreed, but this is not the issue.  The issue is not whether God is capable or willing to exist in three persons.  The issue is why are there so many inconsistencies?  Why didn't God just flat-out say from the very beginning "I am a trinity"?  Why did this concept have to be introduced quite suddenly after thousands of years of complete silence?

Quote It states, 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.


But again, this conflicts with other verses which clearly show Jesus as a human being and nothing more.   
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Thanks for the reply. We won't get into a theological debate over this topic. I only ask that you read John chapter 8. I believe this may shed some light on this very complex subject.

Blessings,

Phillip
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Originally posted by pfmobley pfmobley wrote:

Thanks for the reply. We won't get into a theological debate over this topic. I only ask that you read John chapter 8. I believe this may shed some light on this very complex subject.

Blessings,

Phillip


I have read John 8 and it does not help to answer the serious theological questions.  Throughout the chapter, Jesus says that he was sent by God.  This would imply that he was a servant of God and not God Himself. 
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Jesus Christ is the Messiah, the Savior of the world. Of course He was sent by God to prevent the total destruction of mankind. Jesus said, "I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine." (John 10:14 KJV). "As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep." (John 10:15 KJV). "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." (John 10:16 KJV) "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again." (John 10:17 KJV) I ask you, who can do this, but God? As far as Jesus praying to Himself...Have you ever talked to yourself? Of course you have. He is the God man. His glory is partially shielded because He, being God, dwelt among us here on earth.   Why is this concept so hard to fathom? In the Old Testament, in the book of Exodus, Moses was given the opportunity to see God, but God shielded him, because if Moses had seen the face of God, he would have died, so God allowed him to see only His hind-parts. Why? Because His glory was to great to be seen by human eyes. I think the biggest issue here is that if the honorable prophet Muhammad did not give Jesus the acknowledgment of being God, then Islam would not be Islam...right? What are your thoughts?

Grace and peace be unto you.

Phillip
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Originally posted by Phillip Phillip wrote:

Jesus Christ is the Messiah, the Savior of the world. Of course He was sent by God to prevent the total destruction of mankind. Jesus said, "I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine." (John 10:14 KJV). "As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep." (John 10:15 KJV). "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." (John 10:16 KJV) "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again." (John 10:17 KJV) I ask you, who can do this, but God?


Why would God "send" Himself?  This is the main problem.  You maintain Jesus is God.  Jesus said he was "sent" by God.  Therefore, the conclusion would be that God "sent" Himself.  Is this what you are saying?  This is the same as saying God "prayed" to Himself.  You say this makes perfect sense, but I ask how does it make sense?  If Jesus was God, he should not have said "God sent me" or "God is greater than me".  That creates needless confusion.  And in a matter of salvation, confusion is a major turnoff.

Originally posted by Phillip Phillip wrote:

As far as Jesus praying to Himself...Have you ever talked to yourself? Of course you have. He is the God man.
  

There is a big difference between talking to oneself as humans do and God praying to Himself as the Bible suggests.  Furthermore, on the rare occasion where I do talk to myself, I don't refer to myself in the third person, which is what Jesus does in his prayers when referring to God.

Originally posted by Phillip Phillip wrote:

His glory is partially shielded because He, being God, dwelt among us here on earth.   Why is this concept so hard to fathom? In the Old Testament, in the book of Exodus, Moses was given the opportunity to see God, but God shielded him, because if Moses had seen the face of God, he would have died, so God allowed him to see only His hind-parts. Why? Because His glory was to great to be seen by human eyes.


This only explains why God came in human form, not why He behaved like a human.  If Jesus was God incarnate, he would not have behaved like a human.  Like I said before, this only creates confusion.  All Jesus had to do to prove he was really "God" incarnate was to have a human form yet not act like a human.  That means, as an example, that he should have been able to go without food and water his whole life.  Yet clearly, he ate and drank and went to the restroom like all of us.  Why would I worship someone like that?  Why would I worship a human? 

Quote I think the biggest issue here is that if the honorable prophet Muhammad did not give Jesus the acknowledgment of being God, then Islam would not be Islam...right? What are your thoughts?


Islam is pure monotheism and submission to God alone.  Muhammad (pbuh) taught that Jesus was a man.  So far, you have not given a substantive reason to doubt this.     

Originally posted by Phillip Phillip wrote:

Grace and peace be unto you.
  

Walaikum (and on you too).


Edited by islamispeace - 13 July 2011 at 5:14pm
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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